What Kind of PD Accuracy Do You Accept?

[doc540]

Shot the new CM9 again today.

Without using the CT laser, I practiced raising it from a 45 degree "down" angle using two hands, and firing two shots.

Range was close, 25 feet, but I think as a BUG it will probably be an "up close and personal" point and shoot affair.

What say you?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/KahrCM9.jpg

[jocko]

darn nice shootin.

[doc540]

darn nice shootin.

Well, thanks, but I'm really interested in everyone's idea of personal defense accuracy.

How good do you think is "good enough"?:confused:

[JFootin]

That's good enough!!! :D:D:D

[Rubb]

Well, thanks, but I'm really interested in everyone's idea of personal defense accuracy.

How good do you think is "good enough"?:confused:

That's good enough :)
8" or paper plate size is good to me.
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10093.pdf

http://www.targetz.com/index.htm

[Rubb]

Here ya go...



This is our primary point of aim. If our bullets strike in a six- to eight-inch circle centered on this point (shown in red above), they'll damage the heart, and also affect the blood vessels above it. If they penetrate deeply enough, they can also hit the spinal column, and may injure the spinal cord.



http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/04/myth-of-handgun-stopping-power-part-3.html

[AJBert]

Any grouping within six inches center mass at 7 yards is more than enough accurate for me when it comes down to SD.

[rjt123]

How good do you think is "good enough"?:confused:

Simple creature that I am, I'm usually satisfied with all rounds in center of mass at 21 feet. Did I also mention that I'm only what I would call a fair shot?

[doc540]

Any grouping within six inches center mass at 7 yards is more than enough accurate for me when it comes down to SD.

I think that's a good benchmark.

[TheTman]

IMO If you can keep most of your shots within the "8" ring on a sillouette target at 7 yards with a draw and fire, it should be good enough for SD. That contains most of the vital organs you want to hit.
I've also heard you don't really need a tight group in a SD situation (probably not going to acheive that anyway with the adrenalin flowing) You want to spread the shots out and hit more vital organs so the perp bleeds out quicker. That's just what I read, and made sense to me. You do want an accurate weapon capable of tight groups. It's nice to be able to draw quickly and place a shot on a playing card, takes practice though. I don't think I can do that very quickly. And certainly not in a situation. It seems that a lot of people are lucky to hit anything when the adrenalin kicks in, from looking at police car videos and and hearing about gang bang shootouts where they find like 20 spent cases and maybe 1 person was wounded.

[ParabellumJ]

If you can consistently put rounds on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 7 yards that is good enough. That will cover center of mass within any realistic self defense range.

[jlottmc]

I strive to keep mine in the A zone out to 25, I shoot some at what would be considered long ranges for a pistol, just because I can. Generally, I keep mine in the the A zone or just outside out to 25 yards. I hold myself to a higher standard.

[Ken_K]

If you can keep all your shots on a paper plate at 7 yards when drawing from the holster as fast as you (safely) can then your good to go. The group you posted looks really good btw.

[JFootin]

I strive to keep mine in the A zone out to 25, I shoot some at what would be considered long ranges for a pistol, just because I can. Generally, I keep mine in the the A zone or just outside out to 25 yards. I hold myself to a higher standard.

Well, you're younger than a lot of us old codgers around here! :o

[jlottmc]

Again, I also hold myself to a higher standard. I try to train as much as possible too. Here lately, not so much, but I still get the job done. I wish I could find some room to really stretch out with my rifles, but that is not to be had here.

[Bill K]

Great if you're given the chance or are able to stand and deliver.

Show me 10' and in, holster draw, moving off the X, starting one handed point shooting from the hip transitioning to two handed sight shooting as the distance from the target increases. Use a silhouette target with no bulls eye.

I believe there are a whole bunch of drills that would have many of us - I include myself - shooting much larger groups but giving us a better idea of how we might perform in a SD situation.

BTW, your group is much better than what I'm able to do at that approximate distance.

[Barth]

Any grouping within six inches center mass at 7 yards is more than enough accurate for me when it comes down to SD.

+1
Nobodies going to rob you from 25 yards away.
Most SD work is up close and personal.
Striking distance.

My 2" snubbies and 3" auto are point blank guns.
Naturally I like being able to hit at a distance.
And shooting a group into single ragged holes is sweetness.
But carrying my Sig Sauer P220/45,
with its 5.47" match barrel,
isn't always practical.

[jlottmc]

Don't mistake my comments for a lack of ability to run and gun, especially at speed. My groups open up a little when I get happy on the trigger, but that is one thing I train hardest for is shoot and move, the tactical side so to speak. Remember, I too have BTDT for real. I've got the confidence thing down, and know exactly what I can and can't do with a pistol, shotgun, and rifle. I will also freely admit that I am no Grand Master shooter. Just because I hold myself to a higher standard also doesn't meant that I hold others I have taught to that same standard.

[Dmitri]

Without using the CT laser, I practiced raising it from a 45 degree "down" angle using two hands, and firing two shots.

I think the results will differ dramatically depending on how fast you raise the weapon and how short is the pause (when raised) before the actual shots are fired. Even the smallest increase in speed/timing there affects the results big time, IME.

I do a similar drill when I go to the range, from one-handed at the hip (finger off the trigger) up to two-handed and shoot as fast as I can possibly make it, and the results (at 7 yards) are much worse than yours... But if you give it even a fraction of a second of a "breather" time, to "compose yourself" a bit before the shot, -- the accuracy levels go through the roof, comparatively speaking... i.e. results look much better. So it's very hard to judge these kinds of things (like your impressive target results picture) without knowing the speed at which you were moving during the drill.

The real question is, how much time WILL one have in a real situation... Depends on the situation I guess, but most likely -- not a lot... :confused:

Hope none of us will ever have the chance to find out.

[Yogi 117]

I practice SD shooting @ 10 yards & under. When done, I hold the target up to my torso & guess what? The BG isn't going to like getting hit with all the shots. I don't worry about grouping sizes, if I put the first 2 rounds into a BG's shirt pocket, he isn't going to care that my 3rd round hit a shirt button, 3-4 inches away! Simply put, if my rounds are all on a Paper Plate size circle/target, I'm a happy camper. JMHO! :)

[Mudcat]

Different guns I require different accuracy out of. Maybe I should say I expect to shoot different guns more accurate than others. Most every gun I have ever shot was more accurate than what I could shoot it. I try to find the balance of speed and accuracy. I don't use a rest or bench just shoot 2 handed thumbs forward grip. Don't care about where my feet are as I am usually moving while drawing or reloading. I like the IDPA classifier to get a base for how well I shoot a gun. It involves strong hand and weak hand only shooting, shooting while moving, reloading on the clock shooting from behind a barrier from distances from 25 to 5 yards. I just don't stand and try to shoot the smallest groups not that it is wrong but it doesn't help me decide if I shoot a gun well. But I can tell real quick if I am not shooting a gun well or if I did shoot it well.


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[wyntrout]

Well, considering you won't be standing there with two hands, controlling breathing, and leisurely shooting at a stationary paper target, hitting a paper plate or letter-sized sheet of paper consistently with rapid fire pointing is what I'm happy with. I'll be pretty busy trying to seek cover and tossing some rounds at the bad guy(s) to throw off his/their aim... depending on the situation and "backstop".

Wynn:)

[jlottmc]

Actually Wynn, you bring up a good point. Is Rule 4 more of a guideline, or is it a hard and fast. The point I'm making here is that yes for a range rule for is pretty absolute, but in a combat situation, is there any give to it? Sometimes you need to shoot the adam henry that is trying to shoot you, and many if not most times especially in an urban environment, your backstop is less that ideal. I refer you to the video of I believe the TX officer that is involved in a shoot out on a busy highway. Your thoughts all.

[Mudcat]

We are responsible for every round that leaves or gun, hit or miss. This is why we should always be alert and aware of our surroundings. Only you can make that split decision to shoot or to wait, side step, crouch or do nothing. Lots of responsibility with no rewind or do overs.
The chance of your gun fight happening under perfect conditions is almost zero. Prepare for the worst hope for the best.


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[skiflydive]

It's an interesting exercise to dry fire at the people on your TV screen. They don't stay still and they often disappear before you get the click. Just don't let anyone catch you practicing on Whatsisname... Better to do it on some of the liberal talking heads.

[Barth]

It's an interesting exercise to dry fire at the people on your TV screen. They don't stay still and they often disappear before you get the click. Just don't let anyone catch you practicing on Whatsisname... Better to do it on some of the liberal talking heads.

It's amazing how much better I shoot when visualizing shooting ******* I want to shoot.

[Planedude]

I often practice at an indoor range that will not allow CCW holster draws. That said I'll put the gun in its holster on the lane bench and set a range bag with some ammo in it on top the combo (to realisticly slow the draw). I run the target out to seven yards and when ready, draw and fire three as fast as I can. An eight inch group in the center of mass is good enough. I average five inches on most days and have got a few of three inch groups.
I don't shoot IDPA, as I'm something of a gimp these days (will if I ever get better), but find some form of competition shooting, I shoot trap and skeet, so you get use to shooting well under some form of pressure.

Plus, it's fun and the people you meet are great!:cool:

It matters less about what kind of gun and game you find, but that you get into the mental mindset of "I shoot pretty good under pressure". The mental part of the SD problem is the hardest to control and train for.

[Rubb]

Reminds me of Midways videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaYkxdHdP-4

[jlottmc]

We are responsible for every round that leaves or gun, hit or miss. This is why we should always be alert and aware of our surroundings. Only you can make that split decision to shoot or to wait, side step, crouch or do nothing. Lots of responsibility with no rewind or do overs.
The chance of your gun fight happening under perfect conditions is almost zero. Prepare for the worst hope for the best.


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I know this, but my point is this: Are the odds that some one will be injured or killed so great as to warrant my life, or the life of my family? Take a look at that video I reference (Google fu is your friend), both the officer and the scrote fire many rounds basically into a very busy highway, and no innocents are hurt. By not shooting, the officer would have put more of the public in danger, and yes I know about qualified immunity, but is there a time when you have to go and hope you live to see the court room, or is rule 4 so set in concrete that you will let harm come to those you protect because you didn't have the perfect shot? Another way to look at this is from the perspective of a hunter in the field. Absolutely one better be sure of their target and what is beyond it then, but hunting and combat are two completely different things. Let that stew for a bit, and see if that question becomes a little more clear.

[jocko]

My two cents: Maybe an officer in a gun fight might get away with shooting alot and maybe wounding or killing innocents sitting on a porch a block away. Where as u a civilian with a license to carry had better think twice about just opening fire or at least have ur lawyers phone number keyed in ur cell phone. for I can well assure u , if u pop a kid playing on a porch a block away, u are in deep sh!t, civilily for sure and maybe even legally. I gotta go with Mudcat on this responsibile for every round fired. It may indeed matter to u if ur family was in danger but for sure it would really matter when u pop a kid off someones porch. There is just a hell of alot of responsibility when we strap on those guns.

Look at this zimmeran deal. Hell that fokker is barricaded inside some safehouse for what, maybe a year plus until trial and then the ordeal of the trial and then when acquitted the living fear of someone wanting the 10K black panters reward. In my eyes if this was a good samiratin thing he was originally doing, it has to be a total night mare for him now. WAS IT WORHT IT????

I will be 10-8-6 taking a dump. u don't hear that alot on the radio but its in their code book or is that maybe my code book.:D

[jlottmc]

Jocko your code brown is either that, or 10-200.

[Mudcat]

I just cannot answer that question myself. Though I have thought and am currently thinking about it. It will ultimately come down to the time and place of circumstances. Just too broad of a question. To be honest there would most likely would not be a right or wrong answer. Which ever one you make could haunt you for the rest of your life.
I do believe if we shoot to save a life and not to take a life we or I can always live with what I have done.

Good question though has me thinking. I may pass this along to someone who could give a better answer to me. If so I will pass it along.

[jlottmc]

I can't take credit for it, was brought up on TTAG the other day and there are some that are much more eloquent than I am with it. There are also some that missed their calling and should have been bottom feeders (trying to say that the way it is written lends credence to various arguments about how solid the rule is). All I was trying to accomplish is a discussion, and I think we are headed that way. I am interested in the thoughts of our crowd on it. I agree also with what you said about shooting to save life. The issue becomes even more muddy for me as I complete the police academy, and think about things like that traffic stop that turned sour, and reconciling that with what I was taught as a Marine, and as a CHL holder. You are also correct, a very tangled web.

[jocko]

Jocko your code brown is either that, or 10-200.

no clue as to the codes as u well know. but code Brown makes alot of sense

[7shot]

The problem is: it's real hard to practice live fire scenarios without someone getting hurt. Man, if we could do this the shooter could learn how to control himself during a shoot out. Maybe all CCL holders should take a Navy Seal course...man that be bad ass, if it didn't kill you first!

[bugs]

I agree with Mudcats' IDPA classifier as a way to gauge your abilities; my standard practice routine is at the classifier distances of 57ft. and 30ft., instead of 21ft., w/my CM9 EDC/BUG DIV. gun.

57ft. freestyle from low ready,controlled pairs,goal is down zero/-1 all shots on IDPA target.

30ft. low ready, strong hand and weak hand only, controlled pairs, goal is down zero strong,down zero/-1 weak hand.

30ft. low ready, head shots only,freestyle, controlled pairs, goal is down zero.

30ft. low ready, mozambique,(two to body, one to head) freestyle, goal is down zero; I count any head shots below the bottom head perf as mikes.
all drills w/shot timer with off hand at side until presentation. down zero is 8" body,6" head.
I judge myself on the strong/weak hand stages.

your target shows you can hold a head size target consistantly :)

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER