Stopping-Power Comparison

[500KV]

This is an interesting stopping-power comparison showing most effective rounds, one-shot stops, etc.

Different calibers can be accessed by choosing the drop-down menu at the top.

9 mm Stopping Power (http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=All)

[Steve-$]

Will make for some good reading.
Thanks!

[wyntrout]

That data is pretty old (compiled before 2006) and doesn't include the newer premium defense loads like the Speer Gold Dot.
This is not a table but good info by a renowned expert and merits reading:


Choose your ammo... police style. By Massad Ayoob

Choose your ammo...police style by Massad Ayoob Issue #93 (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html)

Here is another site, but it doesn't even list the Kahr pistols??

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

Wynn

[500KV]

and doesn't include the newer premium defense loads like the Speer Gold Dot.

Sure does include Speer GD.
You just gotta' know how to look...As in +P.

[wyntrout]

Sure does include Speer GD.
You just gotta' know how to look...As in +P.

Yeah. I should have noticed that since steve666 referenced this same info and other info about a month ago(8 Jan) and I used the table several times.:o

A lot of stuff has referenced the book Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall & Edwin J. Sanow that was PUBLISHED in 2001, and "updated" a bit in 2006 by others using it as a reference.

Wynn

[unclenunzie]

The data tells me that using any good quality JHP works very well, and is superior to ball by the measure of one-shot stops. I think I'd trust ball in a 45 auto but it wouldn't be my first choice, I'd rather use a good quality JHP.

[wyntrout]

Bigger is usually better. I would rather be using a good 230 grain .45 ACP JHP, but for CCW I have to think lighter and smaller. The PM9 is pretty good.
Ayoob said this about the 9mm:

"Experience has taught police that what actually happens on the street is more important than what happens in the artificial environment of the laboratory. The 9mm round now acknowledged to work the best is a 124-grain to 127-grain high tech hollow point at a velocity of 1250 feet per second. NYPD, with some 30,000 officers carrying this type of ammo, the Speer Gold Dot +P 124-grain, is happy with the performance of its 9mm service pistols. Ditto the Orlando, Florida, Police Department, which uses the Winchester Ranger 127-grain +P+ in their standard issue 9mm SIGs".

I tried the Corbon 125gr +P before I polished my feed ramps and had a few feed problems. I got a bunch of Double Tap 124 gr. Bonded JHP(Gold Dots, supposedly) and after 93 of those decided they were fine in the K9 and the PM9. I reported on this that the only problem I had was with the 7-round magazine with the extended grip.
Corbon 125gr +P JHP: 1250 fps 434 ft/lbs (4.0' bbl)
Double Tap 124 gr. +P Bonded JHP 1310 fps (4.5" bbl)

That's weird. I just checked at DT and they no longer list the 124gr 9mm! That doesn't sound good.:confused:

If I could have found some Speer GD +P 124 grain ammo, at decent prices, I would have used that.

Wynn

[Vinikahr]

Thanks for the info guys~

[GregD]

In my over 33 years of LE and investigating many many shootings, I had victims shot with everything from .22 shorts to 12 ga slugs., lead rounds, fmjs, lead hollow points and jacketed hollow points.

During autopsies I seldom witness hollow points expanding. Most of the time the cavities of these rounds would fill with cloth, bone and meat. Also interesting were victims shot with 45 acp, 44 mags, 9mm etc., some of their visit were short at the hospital and released in days or weeks.

But then again in the early 1970's I witnessed many shot and killed with .22 shorts, 25acp and 32 acp. (saturday night specials) in bar room fights.
Even when placement appeared to be in a critical areas, heart and brain, the victim lived longer than I expected, but they were incapacitated pretty fast.

In the 1980's and 90's and until now the 9mm, 45acp and S&W 40 are popular with the increase of gang and drug activity . But the thugs don't alway carry quality ammo.

In my opinion, placement is very important but than again it does not mean the person will be stopped immediately. I had one victim shot four times, three in the torso and one thru his neck at close range with .357 silvertips, he was still able to drive his truck to the parking lot of a store nearly a half a mile from the scene of the shooting, before he died.

The only victims that died within seconds were shot with 12ga slugs at close range, ten feet or less.

I retired in 2005 and JHP's have greatly improved since then. I have always carried good quality jacketed hollow points, get the best and practice often, center of mass and head shots, ''shoulder point''.

Just my $.02

[johnatw]

Greg D
I wonder about carrying an extra magazine. In your 33 years experince what would you guess the average number of rounds fired by a LE in a self defense situation? My CW40 is 6 +1 and I wonder about this.

[GregD]

Greg D
I wonder about carrying an extra magazine. In your 33 years experince what would you guess the average number of rounds fired by a LE in a self defense situation? My CW40 is 6 +1 and I wonder about this.

Not many, on the average of 3-4 rounds, but circumstances can change that number.
My primary now, that I recently returned to work, is a M&P .40 full size with six magazines . I have this pistol available but carry a S&W 642 in my pants pocket. I work for a City Marshal's Office now, and my primary function is serving civil citations, summons for court and courtroom security once a week. I have a Kahr CW9 ordered with a spare 8 round mag, that will stay on my possession. So yes, I would carry the extra mag.

Now days you never know when you will walk up on a meth lab while serving papers or something else, LOL, plus I still "back up" other LE when they need it, the young guys & girls.

My new job is where the dinosaurs of LE go, but it's fun and I don't have to solve any problems . I tried retirement for four years, too much time with wifey. :D

[johnatw]

Greg
Thanks for the prompt reply and advice, I will of course take it.
I understand the "too much time with wifey" I'm in the same boat, but she does not want me working again and won't let me hang out in pubs or pool halls either. Woe is me.
John

[rholmes69]

You "retired" guys kill me! I wish I had your problems!

Unfortunately with the way things are going, we young guys and girls will never get to retire!

I'ld spend all my time closely studying the theory below if I was retired!

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/Titan%20Forum/BuffaloTheory_450.jpg

[PaiN]

Gald to see my good old Silver Tips 115g at the top of the 9mm list(83%)

[jfrey]

Wynn, what is your take on the new Hornady Critical Defense round in 9mm?

[wyntrout]

Wynn, what is your take on the new Hornady Critical Defense round in 9mm?

I don't know. They talk a good product, but I haven't heard of any "field test" results. I sold my .380 ACP CDs at the last gun show because I've decided on the Buffalo Theo... I mean Buffalo Bore 90-grain bonded +P JHP. One of these days I might get to test some of the .380 but my P380's whereabouts are unknown -- maybe still elemental iron and nickel, etc.:(
If they had a 124 or 125 grain CD, I might try that in +P, if they ever make that.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Greg D
I wonder about carrying an extra magazine. In your 33 years experince what would you guess the average number of rounds fired by a LE in a self defense situation? My CW40 is 6 +1 and I wonder about this.

I always carry at least one extra magazine for any auto I carry. Not so much for extra rounds but it's usually a good first thing to swap out when things get jammed up.
Gregd. An M&P with 6 extra mags? You are a true sheepdog among sheep. My hat is off to you sir. Be safe and close by if I'm ever in trouble. You hit the nail directly on the head, serving papers can get very ugly quite quickly. It's a jungle out there.

[getsome]

Hi jfrey, I use it for carry ammo in my .380 LCP...I paid $33.00 for 20 rounds :eek: so I'm not really quick to fire off a bunch but I did shoot 3 into wet phone books and all went through 8-9 inchs and all opened up to about 45 cal just like the pictures in the CD ad so I'm pretty sure they have done their homework for this ammo....I feel comfortable with it for CCW... .380 is almost impossible to find in my area....I wanted to try some corbon power ball but can't find any....I am waiting to try some .40 cal CD in my CW40 if it ever gets in the stores....I hope I don't have to take out a loan to be able to afford them..... I seem to have a good supply of .45 gold dots so I will stay with them for the 4506...

[getsome]

Hea rholm69, I like that Buffalo Theory thing....That makes me the smartest guy on this forum!!!! At my last last physical the doc asked if I drank and I said light beer....What I should have said was I drink beer when its light outside...After dark I prefer to spend time with Dr. Jack D....:cool:

[500KV]

Speaking of mags; has anyone tried these?
P45 Magazine with Grip Extension, 7 Rd. (http://kahrshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=2117)

I got this in an email from Kahr and am thinking about getting one for my CW45.
They're a little pricey from Kahr..CTD has them for $32.
8 rounds of .45 would be a good thing.

[jfrey]

getsome, I found a box of CD locally in 9mm for $21.95 in an older box on the shelf. There were 2 newer boxes of the same stuff for $22.95, so I pulled the cheaper box off the bottom and bought it. I think there are 25 rounds in the box I bought. Gold dots in 124 gr. are harder to find in these parts. Our local dealer has some ordered but is having trouble locating any. I can find them in Houston but they come at a premium. I would think either load would be effective as carry ammo. All the other rifle and pistol ammo I have tried from Hornady has been good so I would expect the CD to be quality as well.

[getsome]

Hi 500kv Not sure why but I seem to remember reading that some folks were having problems with the 7 round magazines...possible pushing down on the finger rest during recoil causing FTF??? For some reason the 6 round magazines seem to work without problems...Perhaps others will voice their opinions...

[getsome]

Thanks jfrey...I bought mine back during the late 09 ammo shortage so hopefully they have come down some but like most other things, once the price goes up it never seems to come down much if any...I paid $2.98 a gallon for gas yesterday and the paper says crude oil is way down...go figure!

[500KV]

Not sure why but a far amount of folks seem to have problems with the 7 round magazines...possible pushing down on the finger rest during recoil causing FTF??? For some reason the 6 round magazines seem to work without problems...Perhaps others will voice their opinions...
I've noticed that as well but I think the problems I,ve seen were with the 7 round 9mm mags.

I haven't personally had a problem with my PM9 7 rounder and was thinking about trying the 7 round .45.

These magazines can sure cause a lot of grief if you get a bad one.

[jfrey]

Gasoline around here is going for $2.39 to $2.49/gallon today. The whole thing is contrived anyway. I base my opinion on 15 years in the oilfield back in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. The price of ammo is based on what they think they can squeeze out of the consumer at the time. I hear lead and copper prices are down too but the price of ammo hasn't come down much, if any.

[getsome]

I hear ya man.....:confused: As for 500KV 7 round mags...Yea having an extra round is always a good thing...Try one out, it may work fine but if not since its from Kahr shop they should exchange if it doesn't work...Good luck with it...

[GregD]

I always carry at least one extra magazine for any auto I carry. Not so much for extra rounds but it's usually a good first thing to swap out when things get jammed up.
Gregd. An M&P with 6 extra mags? You are a true sheepdog among sheep. My hat is off to you sir. Be safe and close by if I'm ever in trouble. You hit the nail directly on the head, serving papers can get very ugly quite quickly. It's a jungle out there.

I guess it has been nearly 20 years ago, a friend (LE old fart) was serving papers to a couple, the wife had filed a civil complaint against her husband, forcing him to vacate the home until they could get their problems worked out. The husband told the deputy, "wait let me get something" and came back to the door with a Virginia Dragon 44 mag. single action . He pointed the handgun at the deputy, who was unarmed (???), he ran back to his unit and called for assistance.
The husband then shot his wife three times and put the gun to his head ,and shot himself. You never know, it can hit the fan quick.

[woodman]

. Gold dots in 124 gr. are harder to find in these parts. Our local dealer has some ordered but is having trouble locating any. .
Start hand loading.

[500KV]

Start hand loading.
+1 :)

[ltxi]

Gold Dots and HST seem to be the best of current technology.

I'm well past getting all wrapped around the axle over stopping power charts. Useful and updated data is good, but common sense dictates and GregD is spot on in his observations.

Have to confess that now mostly retired and absent an imminent danger job I normally no longer carry any spare mags.

[Armybrat]

Having been retired for 15 years, I have trouble remembering to put on my pants...much less finding an extra magazine. :o

[ltxi]

Having been retired for 15 years, I have trouble remembering to put on my pants...much less finding an extra magazine. :o

Hahaha....I am so with you on this one...:israel:

[jfrey]

Woodman, you're right, I reload all my ammo except my carry stuff. I don't skimp on that. A box or two a year of the good stuff won't break the bank. My twin Dillons get a good workout otherwise.

[GregD]

Having been retired for 15 years, I have trouble remembering to put on my pants...much less finding an extra magazine. :o


Too funny, I guess I'm getting there, I notice I'm checking my zipper all day. My brain started the "melt down process" several years ago. :confused:

[GregD]

This is a good round for the 2" snubby. I purchased six boxes yesterday (300 rounds), this should last me for a while.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullet_tests.htm

[GregD]

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

[Dietrich]

My wife told me recently that I`m a "dirty old man". She`s right,and I`m going to be a dirty old man until I`m a dead old man.I always carry an extra mag and use top rated ammunition for self defense.

[woodman]

9mm vs (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm)
Excellent article, thanks.