(Updated 2nd Repoost) 1st Range Report (P380) - Nosedives

[itsthelaw]

Put 200 rounds throught the new P380 today. The various budget ammo used is listed below. This is a joy to shoot and extremely accurate for my shooting style and ability. I am cross-dominant shooter who only focuses on the front sight with both eyes open. I was very accurate at 7 yards.

100 rounds - WWB 95 FMJ (1 nose dive at about 35 and another at about 80)
50 rounds - Federal 95 FMJ (3 nose dives between round 35 and 45)
50 rounds - Remington UMC 95 MC (3 nose dives between rounds 15 and 38)

Now the bad news...
I had nose dive issues with all three types of ammo and with both mags. Unfortunately, I was so into shooting that I didn't take note of whether the slide was locked back or stuck back. Going on memory, I just can't recall. Since both mags were suspect, I will check springs. If anyone can tell me the direction of a correctly positioned spring, I would be grateful. I do know that both of my springs are the same and the same as my CM9 springs that work perfectly. I suspect my springs are not the issue. My LGS owner said to open up the top of the mag slightly, but I am not sure that is a good idea...unless someone thinks it would be.

Each time there was a nose dive, a simple slingshot sent it into battery and the round fired.

I also tried to sling shot one of the first 3 mags on the first load and the round did not get fully into battery one time. Later attempts to sling shot rounds were okay. I am not too concerned with it.

After the first 100 rounds, I made sure that my grip was VERY tight and still had the nose dives. I am not recoil sensitive and usually get a very strong grip with 2 fingers. I don't think it had to do with my grip.

I will have to return to the range to sort out whether the slide locks back or gets stuck. The only reason that I am mildly depressed is that this little gun is amazing. It is easy to shoot, easy to get back on target, easy to carry.

Here is a picture prior to the final mag. She looks sexy all sweaty and dirty! I am grateful for any advice. I DO NOT want to send it to Kahr.


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3762/img20120511132514.jpg

[TucsonMTB]

I'm sure your next range trip will help pin point the cause. If it turns out that it is locking back prematurely, there are a couple of easy to deal with possibilities.

1. It is surprisingly easy to just barely touch the slide lock, without realizing it, and cause the slide to lock back. Sometime shooting left handed will prevent the hand contact and allow you to recognize the issue.

2. The little spring that holds down the slide stop to prevent premature lock backs might need to be lightly tweaked with a needle nose to increase the downward pressure or the little screw that holds it may be loose. Be careful not to over tighten the screw since it is threaded into plastic.

3. Also, look to see if in-coming rounds are pushing the slide lock up. If they are, a little material polished off the point of impact with the ammo will work wonders.

We will be hoping for a good report from your next session.

Glad the pistol is otherwise working well. Early lock backs are probably the least difficult issue to resolve with confidence. http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejustsomeguy/thumbsup.gif

[itsthelaw]

Tucson - Thanks for the "what to look for" and the encouraging words. I assume MTB has to do with mountain biking. Sold my Santa Cruz Blur a few months ago after 2 back surgeries and a shoulder fix. The shoulder was from a mtb crash. Single tracks here are VERY tight and falling usually involves trees and rocks. I miss it a lot, but I liked to go hard and developed a slight fear that can be really bad. Maybe I will do it again one day. If MTB doesn't mean mountain bike...I look stupid.

I would be astonished if I am hitting the slide, but anything can happen. I will pay particular attention to it. I am mechanically challenged, so point #2 will be explored last. I saw the fix for point #3 in the tech section, so I will sort that one out when I find out if it is locking back. If it is just getting stuck back, I will be worried.

Thanks again!

[jocko]

when u go back pay attention to what roundin the magazine the nose dives happen. If it is consistant like round 2/3 then check the follower to ee if by chance it is grabbing a tad on the mag release button. There is talked about in the propper prepping thread and how to check to see if that is happening.

I would think if the mag springs wasn wrong, it would give issues all the time. When u take the mag apart the uppert angle of the mag spring goes towardes the frontr of the follower,. There is no up or down side both will work but just fullow the angle of the follower andu willbe ok. It is noticeable is u have it in backwards to.

U might wantto check the feed ramp and see if another good polishing would help it any. It may look perfect but there could just be that little something that is popping up now and then and until maybe rounds going up and downon the feed ramp smooth that out, it could give issues. Probably not the reason either but a good polshing never hurt a damn thing.

I would not open up the mag spring IMO. I think the ammo ur using is fine to.

W
hat Tucson stated is the things to check out, U arenot sure if the slide is locking fully open or just not going fully back to battery. There is a difference. Premature locking open could very well be what tucson is suggesting u check out, failure to go to battery could be #1 gun not yet broken in. #$2 get a new set of recoil springs and then retest# feed ramp needs polishing

don't get nervous yet, looks like yours is needing some TLC

U just need to eliminate some possables and they are like tucson stated, bullet could be hitting on the inside of the slide stop lever and causing it. easy to check out,. see the propper prep thread.

Thumb could be doing it, easy to check out, just shoot it left handed to see if u can duplicate

#3 mag springs in wrong, easy to check, ( I doubt it though)

#4 shooter error, gun is moving arund in ur grips. Let another good shooter try the gun.

# 5 mag follower sticking slightly on the mag release button. (propper prepping discussng that) but it willd o it on round 2/3 no more asthe follower is then past the mag body opening.

I ca tell you my used PM9 that I just bought and doing the prep thing I noticed my follower was getting stuuck just a tad as it was moving upward. I had no issues though but I still sanded down the side of the follower until it ran past that mag body opening with zero hindrance.

all of these things can be eliminated as "possables". then if all this is OK and the problem persists then a call to kahr for discussion is needed.

[itsthelaw]

Both of my P380 mag springs match the 4 CM9 mag springs. The angle on the top of the spring matches the upward angle of the follower.

It did seem to often be the 2nd or 3rd round. I will check that thread and make the needed adjustments. The mags on the P380 don't release real easy, so I am a bit worried to mess with it too much, but I will check it out. This fix might be the issue. I will definitely polish the feed ramp and make the mag release fix before next session.

[jocko]

no no, ur not messing with the mag release as all, only kthe follower if needed. It has zero to do with mag releasing...

U have already eliminated one possability with the mag sprngsin properly, document all this stuff in case it has to go back so the kahr techs can see what u have done to check things out..

U are right though that P380 is like no other semi 380 (when it works as designed). stick with it, the cure is not to far away.

[itsthelaw]

Jocko...sorry, I read the follower prep thread and get it now. I will run the followers up and down tomorrow to see if there is a catch. If there is a catch, and maybe if not, I will take a little off the followers.

Documenting, documenting, documenting!

[jocko]

if u look at the right side of the follower wher eit passes by the mag tube windown that is a slig edge on that follower, I just rounded that edge off and smooth it with 600+_ paper. tokk about 15 minuter sof just pushing the rigt side of the follower back and forth on a flat table with the 600+ grit paper. test, then resand then retest,soon all is well. Even it that isnot the issue, if it is grabbing the slightest, IMO just remove enought to allow freedom of the follower tomove like it does n the rest of the mag tube.

[Deano]

I had this exact same problem with two seven round mags I bought for my CM9. The first round would load and fire fine, the second round (the first one to cylcle after a shot) would nosedive EVERY time. The cause of the problem was twofold. When the first round loaded, the second round would slide forward almost 1/4 inch and also would lay flat instead of being angled up toward the feed ramp.

Take a full magazine and manually remove the first round as fast as you can. How is the second round sitting now? If it's flat and slid forward, that's probably your problem. When the round slides forward like that the wider base of the bullet hits the pin on the slide lock lever pushing it up and locking the slide. Grinding a little off this pin with a dremel fixed that part of the problem.

The thing that fixed the rounds lying flat instead of angled up was the slingshot follower mod, here: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943&page=2 . 5 minutes of sanding the follower as outlined in that thread completely fixed the problem. Now these two mags cycle perfectly.

Of course you want to do the other follower mod so the follower won't catch on the mag release button as it passes by.

Check all these things, and I'll bet you'll have a perfectly running little pistol.

[wlc]

There have been some changes to the P380 magazines. The latest ones have shorter feed lips. This was done to correct feeding issues. The magazines were very difficult to release on mine also. kahr sent a new one which helped. My wife had some issues early with the slide locking back on a partially loaded mag. Kahr sent a new slide stop but I don't think that was the problem. It works great now.

[Snidely Whiplash]

My sister ordered two new mags for her new CM9 and had problems with both of them. Somewhere on Kahrtalk.com she read that some new mags had their springs in backwards - not upside down - backwards. The mag that came with the gun worked perfectly. She disassembled all three, carefully noting which was the good mag and compared them. In the two newer mags, the springs were reversed. She turned them around, reassembled them all, and went back to the range the following day. All three mags worked flawlessly. That's all it took.

[jocko]

she read it in the propper prepping thread, which some people think is a needless waste of print.. But certainlly ur sister knows better.

Nice trouble shooting by her to to pursue the issue to its end result...

[JFootin]

This reversed mag spring thing is getting rediculous! :mad:

[jocko]

This reversed mag spring thing is getting rediculous! :mad:

that is fixable, look into the mirror, that is riduculous. U can't fix that:behindsofa::behindsofa:

Just sayin.

[itsthelaw]

Here is the info from the second 200 rounds...

Prior to the trip, I completed the following steps.

1. Checked mag springs - OK
2. Cleaned gun and inspected - OK
3. Checked to make sure loaded mag isn't hitting slide stop - OK
4. Checked the followers for snaggin - Suspect, so I sanded mags as suggested very lightly.
5. Polished the feed ramp
6. Checked slide lock screw - OK

I purchased 200 rounds of WWB and Federal from Wal-Mart and went to the range. I shot 50 rounds at a time Federal, WWB, WWB, Federal. I shot the mags in sequence of 6 rd, 7rd, 6 rd, 7rd, etc. In each 50 rounds, I would shoot 24 rounds out of the 6 rd mag and 26 rounds from the 7rd mag, ending with 5 rounds in the 7rd mag. I did this for the first 150 rounds out of 200.

Results...

The 40th round (2nd round in mag) of the first 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6 round mag.
The 40th round (2nd round in mag) of the second 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6 round mag.
The 41st round (3rd round in mag) of the 3rd 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6rd mag.
On the 4th and final 50 round box, I shot one more 7rd mag and then 6rd mags only, since the 6rd mag was the only one with failures.
Of the final 43 rounds, every 2nd or 3rd round out of the 6rd mag locked back.
Every failure was a locked back slide. I dropped the mag, put the mag back in and dropped the slide lock or sling shotted the round into battery. Each time the round loaded and fired and the rest of the rounds were fine.

The 7rd mag was flawless over at least 85 rounds. I am comfortable with it at this point. Unfortunately, I would rather carry a 6rd, but at least it seems to be down to the mag.

I am not comfortable with the 6rd mag at all. I made sure that my thumbs were nowhere near the slide lock. I am planning to take off a bunch of the material on the follower of the 6rd where it seems to show signs of rubbing after this session. The rubbing seems heavier on the skirt of the follower.

Questions...

I will be ordering a couple 6rd mags. Should I ask kahr for a new mag?
Is it worth messing with this mag at all?
Can I be confident that it is very likely just this single mag?
Why would the 6rd mag get worse as I got to rounds 150-200?
How does a follower catching on the mag release cause premature slide locking?
Could it be the spring and not just the follower?

This little gun is a super shooter. I love it! Thanks to the EXTREMELY helpful and detailed help of all those that took the time to help a non-mechanical newb like me feel comfortable with all the prep and mods. I certainly know the gun better now. I would thank you by forum name, but would leave out someone. I will say that Jocko's typing makes it hard to search threads for keywords...just saying!

I feel confident that I will feel great about carrying this gun soon.

[Deano]

Here is the info from the second 200 rounds...

Prior to the trip, I completed the following steps.

1. Checked mag springs - OK
2. Cleaned gun and inspected - OK
3. Checked to make sure loaded mag isn't hitting slide stop - OK
4. Checked the followers for snaggin - Suspect, so I sanded mags as suggested very lightly.
5. Polished the feed ramp
6. Checked slide lock screw - OK

I purchased 200 rounds of WWB and Federal from Wal-Mart and went to the range. I shot 50 rounds at a time Federal, WWB, WWB, Federal. I shot the mags in sequence of 6 rd, 7rd, 6 rd, 7rd, etc. In each 50 rounds, I would shoot 24 rounds out of the 6 rd mag and 26 rounds from the 7rd mag, ending with 5 rounds in the 7rd mag. I did this for the first 150 rounds out of 200.

Results...

The 40th round (2nd round in mag) of the first 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6 round mag.
The 40th round (2nd round in mag) of the second 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6 round mag.
The 41st round (3rd round in mag) of the 3rd 50 round box prematurely locked back on the 6rd mag.
On the 4th and final 50 round box, I shot one more 7rd mag and then 6rd mags only, since the 6rd mag was the only one with failures.
Of the final 43 rounds, every 2nd or 3rd round out of the 6rd mag locked back.
Every failure was a locked back slide. I dropped the mag, put the mag back in and dropped the slide lock or sling shotted the round into battery. Each time the round loaded and fired and the rest of the rounds were fine.

The 7rd mag was flawless over at least 85 rounds. I am comfortable with it at this point. Unfortunately, I would rather carry a 6rd, but at least it seems to be down to the mag.

I am not comfortable with the 6rd mag at all. I made sure that my thumbs were nowhere near the slide lock. I am planning to take off a bunch of the material on the follower of the 6rd where it seems to show signs of rubbing after this session. The rubbing seems heavier on the skirt of the follower.

Questions...

I will be ordering a couple 6rd mags. Should I ask kahr for a new mag?
Is it worth messing with this mag at all?
Can I be confident that it is very likely just this single mag?
Why would the 6rd mag get worse as I got to rounds 150-200?
How does a follower catching on the mag release cause premature slide locking?
Could it be the spring and not just the follower?

This little gun is a super shooter. I love it! Thanks to the EXTREMELY helpful and detailed help of all those that took the time to help a non-mechanical newb like me feel comfortable with all the prep and mods. I certainly know the gun better now. I would thank you by forum name, but would leave out someone. I will say that Jocko's typing makes it hard to search threads for keywords...just saying!

I feel confident that I will feel great about carrying this gun soon.

Again, I would suggest the slingshot follower mod. The link is here: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943&page=2

Also may need to grind a small amount off of the slide lock pin. If the next round in the mag slides forward enough, it puts the wider base of the bullet where it will hit the slide lock lever pin and lock the slide back. Here is the link to that mod: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6066&highlight=slide+lock+lever+mod

Just take a dremmel and grind enough off the pin to keep the rounds from hitting it. Don't take too much off, or the pin won't engage the metal pin on the follower and lock the slide back when the mag is empty.

These two mods completely fixed my mag problems.

[jocko]

ur right, the follower IMO has nothinbg to do with premature slide locking back. That is it was grabbing should produce feed issues. There is in the propper prepping thread a thread on how to check to see if by chance rounds arehitting on the inside of the slide lock lever and causing this. U could indeed have an out of spec slide lock lever. easy to check to. I don;'t think ur causing it either, u are conscious of wha tto look for etc. I would though ask if u shot maybe a couple of mags lefthanded tosee if it duplicated the issues. That could tall u something.

U could every easy have that slide lock spring on the left side out of whack. There is a photo tutorial by GB6491` called CW45 fixes and I think why also posted photos on what it should look like if it is not bend etc. It can be tweeked if it is bent. but read te tutorial. It can help u alot. It certaihly sounds also that u have a 6 rund mag that is not right. I would send this email to kahr in care of Jay and ask him if u send the 6 round back to them would they exc hance it for another new mag. They will indeed do so. I wouldonly buy a new mag if u want t6o, but they will take care of this mag for u, I am certain of that, especially after they ead your comments on what u have done etc.

Would not be the first mag that isnot right, . check to see if rounds are hitting the inside of the slide swtop if so, tell kahr this and they wlls end u a new one also, then andonly then would I suggest u file ouff a tad bit at a time that nub on the slide stop that is hitting the rounds inside. Once u get clearance, stop and retest. If u take to much off, u willnot get engagement of the mag follower to lock open the slide.

deano has posted 3 good threads u should look at , and decide what road u want to travel. I think it is fixable in house but if you feel different about that, insist kahr pick up your gun on their dime ad fix it..

[Deano]

...Also may need to grind a small amount off of the slide lock pin. If the next round in the mag slides forward enough, it puts the wider base of the bullet where it will hit the slide lock lever pin and lock the slide back. Here is the link to that mod: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6066&highlight=slide+lock+lever+mod

Just take a dremmel and grind enough off the pin to keep the rounds from hitting it. Don't take too much off, or the pin won't engage the metal pin on the follower and lock the slide back when the mag is empty.

These two mods completely fixed my mag problems.
By the way, this is easy to check. Take the slide off of the frame. Re-insert the slide lock lever pin into the frame (without the slide on). Now take a full mag and manually eject the first round. Normally the next round will slide forward a little bit. Now without adjusting the position of the next round, put that mag into the frame. Now visually inspect the space between the bullet and the slide pin. This will tell you if this is the problem, and how much you need to take off.

[itsthelaw]

I will check how the second round sits in the mag after the first is taken out. I will also check how it is in relation to the slide lock pin. BUT...I am not going to start taking off metal from the pin, because i still think it might just be the mag. If all of my failures were with the 6rd mag and the 7rd mag had no failures in 85 rounds, I think it might be the mag that is allowing the 2nd round to mover too far forward and engage the pin.

Does this make sense?

If anyone would like to PM jay's direct email, I would be grateful. It seems that he could send me a mag AND send me a new pin after making sure that the pin is in spec.

Thanks!

[Deano]

I agree, it is the mag. Oddly enough it was my 6 round cm9 mag that functioned perfectly, and my 7 rounders that had the problems. Grinding the slide lock pin is an easy fix, and it gives me more peace of mind carrying the cm9 for a PD weapon knowing that no matter what, a round isn't going to hit the pin and cause the slide to lock back. It's a cheap part too. Screw it up and you're out $5. What you decide to do is up to you. Just telling you what has worked for me and many others here.

Have you checked to see if the bullets are scraping the pin yet?

[gb6491]

...I am planning to take off a bunch of the material on the follower of the 6rd where it seems to show signs of rubbing after this session. The rubbing seems heavier on the skirt of the follower. .....
I do the same with all the Kahr followers I have. http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=15667&postcount=2

...
Questions...
How does a follower catching on the mag release cause premature slide locking?
.....
If the slide is locking back prematurely happens when the follower is in the mag latch window (cutout for the latch on the magazine tube), I think it's feasible that the latch is pushing the mag closer to the slide stop, perhaps enough that a round hits the latch when feeding causing the slide to lock back. It might also be that the rounds always hit the latch, but you have enough wiggle room that it doesn't cause the stop to engage, again with the follower in the latch window the extra pressure might eliminate the wiggle room. I guess I'm trying to say that when the follower is in the mag latch window there is extra pressure on the magazine and that's somehow causing rounds to hit the slide stop enough to engage it.
Regards,
Greg

[itsthelaw]

Deano = The Man (not to disccount anyone else)

I shot so much dang ammo that all I have are some JHPs, but when I quickly strip away the first round, the second round slams into the pin. Funny enough, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th still touch it, but only lightly. I am sure actual shooting is a bit different, but pretty cool to see it happen. I think I will try to get the replacement and then shave a bit off of it. It is certainly the mag, but (as Deano said) it would give me a sense of reliability to have it clear the pin no matter the mag.

Thanks to all!

[Deano]

I do the same with all the Kahr followers I have. http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=15667&postcount=2

If the slide is locking back prematurely happens when the follower is in the mag latch window (cutout for the latch on the magazine tube), I think it's feasible that the latch is pushing the mag closer to the slide stop, perhaps enough that a round hits the latch when feeding causing the slide to lock back. It might also be that the rounds always hit the latch, but you have enough wiggle room that it doesn't cause the stop to engage, again with the follower in the latch window the extra pressure might eliminate the wiggle room. I guess I'm trying to say that when the follower is in the mag latch window there is extra pressure on the magazine and that's somehow causing rounds to hit the slide stop enough to engage it.
Regards,
GregGreg, the OP stated that his lock-ups happened on the second round. The mag is still almost full at this point, and the follower is nowhere near the mag release opening at this point. I think the mag follower mod you posted for improving slingshot is the one he needs, as well as grinding a little bit off of the SLL Pin. Then again, he could just send the mags back for a new one, but then he won't get one of your Wiley Coyote gunsmith award thingys.

[jocko]

on my 6 round mag it shows up in the mag tube window between round 2/3.

what I have noticed on those followers is that if u look at the right side of the follower where it will comeinto the mag tube cut out, there is a lip on that follower on that side. I have found that if one will just melt that follower in that area with a file and some fine paper, it will then ride past that mag release button with ease. Gregg might have apoint on the rounds hitting the slide lock lever due to the folower gettng hung up a tad before it goes all the way up. It is allabout timing. again Iam also not sure of thateither. IMO that follower should slide as easy past that window cutout as it does anywhgere else in the mag tube. If it doesn't timing can then be effected and god only nows what can go wrong to. Any timeu can document the gun screwing up on round 2/3 beit failure to feed or premature slide locking open IMO u can bet your ass it is magazine releated.
the gun certainbly cannot count. IMO it is not rocket science to smooth the right sid eof te follower out either, to me beats sending thge magazine back and maybe getting the same thing with a new one. Could also on some guns even, could the mag release button be a tadout of spec???It certainly cold be but IMO u are far better off working wioth the follower mod that trying to mod the mag release button. Just sayin.

OP's quote: Of the final 43 rounds, every 2nd or 3rd round out of the 6rd mag locked back

[gb6491]

Greg, the OP stated that his lock-ups happened on the second round. The mag is still almost full at this point, and the follower is nowhere near the mag release opening at this point. I think the mag follower mod you posted for improving slingshot is the one he needs, as well as grinding a little bit off of the SLL Pin. Then again, he could just send the mags back for a new one, but then he won't get one of your Wiley Coyote gunsmith award thingys.
Deano,
Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have a P380, so I was looking at the 6 round mag from my LCP; with it, after you eject two rounds from a full magazine, the follower is in the window. I was guessing the P380 mags were similar.
Thanks again.
Greg

[jocko]

and I must say I cold stand corrected. I was under the impression we were talking about the cm/pm9 kahrs and not the 380. But I stillthink what Gregg is saying is correct with the follower in the widow prt, it is between round 2/3..

[Deano]

Actually, I just think he should do all the mods, and whatever is the cause of the problem would likely be gone. Gotta believe grinding the slide release pin a little bit is gonna help too. It did for me.