It's here - Lebman 1907 replica!!!

[Alvin Karpis]

Well it's been darn-near 8 months since I thought of it and decided that I wanted one but it's done. My replica of the Winchester 1907s prepared by Hyman Lebman of San Antonio for the Dillinger Gang (except not full auto), including Homer Van Meter and Baby Face Nelson. This is as close as I can come to the guns captured with Johnny D. and gang in Tucson - I sent every photo that I could find and a stock 1907 to Tom Wilkinson in Idaho (208-660-5135) and told him what I wanted - he came through beautifully cutting the barrel down to 16 inches and making a perfect replica of the comp and producing an unbreakable aluminum forearm for the vertical TSMG grip. I received the aluminum forearm raw and have been trying to paint it correctly - I'm still working on it but I can't wait any longer to share. I can't get to the range this weekend but I will be going next Friday to try her out - I've accumulated 6 of the 10-round mags and 350 rounds of 351 ammo.

By the way, Tom W. really got into the project and is producing a few more of these replicas.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebman1907d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebman1907b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebman1907c.jpg


Thanks for looking!

AK

[Bawanna]

Proverbial thing of beauty. Takes my breath away. Thanks for the show and tell.

[Alvin Karpis]

Bawanna45cal,

Thank you - I can't stop looking at it either - what a great long gun to use in the Zootshooter matches if I can reload some .351 with cast lead projectiles and actually find a match nearby.

Here's what a stock 1907 looks like compared to the Lebman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebmanvsstock1907.jpg

[Bawanna]

Nice piece of wood on that forearm. Even the stock one is a thing of beauty. Looks like that vertical forgrip would be quite a reach, way out there on the end.
I bet you can't take your eyes off of it. Nice.

[Alvin Karpis]

The vertical foregrip does look like it's out there in the photos but it is quite comfortable. I was watching Public Enemies this evening and there are several shots (pun intended) of a Lebman 1907.

[G Man]

Alvin,

I may be telling you something you already know but it may help someone else out there looking to load the.351.

My best source for loads have been the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and an old out of print book by Philip B. Sharpe called Complete Guide to Handloading.

Best price I've found for brass is Buffalo Arms company who trim back .357 Maximum brass to make .351s.

Obsolete Brass Cases - 351 WSL AKA 351 Winchester Self Loading (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,165.html)

My cast lead bullets come from Western Bullet.

NEI 351.172<br>.351 WSL (http://www.westernbullet.com/nei35wsl.html)

On the other hand if you have found better sources by all meas share them with me.

[Race Bannon]

WOW! WOW! WOW! What a great and beautiful job in recreating an interesting historical firearm. PLEASE let us know how it shoots!

[Alvin Karpis]

Thanks to all for the kind words - I'm very pleased with the results and will be giving a range report ASAP.

G-man - I knew about the Western Bullet cast bullets but not the new brass being made by Buffalo Arms - thanks! John Henwood's book has some loads too. I wish that I could find the book!!

Also, I need to clarify that while there is no doubt that Mr. Lebman modified 1907s (and provided Thompsons and other modified guns within the law - the National Firearms Act had not been passed yet), he apparently didn't know (it cannot be proved) that he was making them for criminals. He knew Baby Face Nelson and others by alias' and Nelson apparently distributed these to Dillinger, etc. The real question is how many of these modified 1907s were produced? By all accounts, very few; perhaps no more than 4-5?

[Alvin Karpis]

New artsy-fartsy photo ode to the 1907 circa 1933-1934 -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/1907Lebartsy1.jpg

[Alvin Karpis]

Took the modified 1907 out to the range and it was great. There were two problems. I spent more time talking to people and explaining what the rifle was and what the cartridge was (to very blank faces) than shooting and I had two cartridge cases split on me on two separate occasions jamming the action closed - a problem with using old ammo. The rifle was accurate and easy to shoot - the comp seemed to dampen recoil so there could be quick followup shots. I'll need to get my reloading of this cartridge up and running but all in all I can see why the lawmen and bad guys of the day liked it.

AK

[jeep45238]

Absolutely gorgeous.


I'm not ashamed to admit I'd be one of the people you'd be explaining things too, though I'd be pressing to know more about the caliber since I'm a sucker for oddball ammo :D

[Race Bannon]

Bawanna45cal,

Thank you - I can't stop looking at it either - what a great long gun to use in the Zootshooter matches if I can reload some .351 with cast lead projectiles and actually find a match nearby.

Here's what a stock 1907 looks like compared to the Lebman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Levallois/Lebmanvsstock1907.jpg

The Lebman is so cool I just keep comming back to this thread and looking at it. Excellent Job AK!! If you have a chance can you detail the process is getting it built? Things like who did the gunsmithing, and what ,if any, were the problems in the build. And PLEASE let us know how it shoots! It would be interesting to know how it compares to a stock '07.

[Alvin Karpis]

Race,

If you look at the No. 1 post and no. 10 post above, they should answer your questions in detail. The short answer is that I got the idea from the Public Enemies movie. I found Tom Wilkinson in Idaho who agreed to build it once I sent him all the old photos that I could find. He got into it so much that he started reloading the 351 cartridge and I believe he's building 6 more just like it - you should contact him if you want one - there been quite a bit of interest already (and I don't make a dime off this). The more people who get intetested in shooting the 351, the easier it will get to find ammo, components, etc. (I hope).

And it shoots great but I've got to start reloading as the old ammo cases can split jamming the bolt closed. Going to take her out again in the next couple of weeks with the newest ammo that I have as I didn't get in much shooting last time.

AK

[Story]

The more people who get intetested in shooting the 351, the easier it will get to find ammo, components, etc. (I hope).

Now if someone could just figure out a way to convert existing, extended magazines for it, or make new ones...

[Alvin Karpis]

Now if someone could just figure out a way to convert existing, extended magazines for it, or make new ones...

Are you talking about converting the 10 rounders to 15 or 20 rounders? I was looking at a 10-rounder and a 5 rounder together, one on top of the other. I wonder if you could cut off the bottom of one and the top of the other and then weld them together? I wish the factory mags weren't so danged expensive.

[The Boilermaker]

Are you talking about converting the 10 rounders to 15 or 20 rounders? I was looking at a 10-rounder and a 5 rounder together, one on top of the other. I wonder if you could cut off the bottom of one and the top of the other and then weld them together? I wish the factory mags weren't so danged expensive.

A couple of years back I got some 15 round magazines from a third party who had gotten them from this guy. They really only worked well with 13 rounds in them. He only shows 5 & 10 Round now but you could call him and ask if he can get the 15 Rounders.

Winchester Bob's Gun Shop .Gun parts for many Winchester Models.Winchester Levera Action Rifle Parts,Winchester Hi Power Rifle Parts.Winchester Hi Power Automatic Rifle Parts, Winchester Factory Rifle Parts, Winchester Gun Stocks. Wincheter Saddle Ri (http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterrifle/)

Here is picture with a 5-Round for comparison:

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/dustertom/Guns/DSC_2090.jpg

[Alvin Karpis]

Boilermaker,

Very cool aftermarket 15-round mags! Who made them - any maker's marks? Thanks for the heads-up about these.

AK

[Story]

Are you talking about converting the 10 rounders to 15 or 20 rounders? .

At first glance and without knowing any measurements, I was actually thinking of something like M1 carbine magazines as donor bodies for a WECSOG conversion.

[Alvin Karpis]

I had to look up what WECSOG meant - never heard it before - I like it - I assume you mean a 30-round carbine mag? I don't have one but adapting the 15-rounders would take some major work - they're almost twice as thick as the 351 mags. Tom Wilkinson shared a quote with me when I asked him about making a mag for the 351 -

"Eugene Stoner ( M16 designer) said that anyone can design a good rifle, it takes a genius to design a reliable magazine."

[Bawanna]

Whats one of those stock 1907's as nice as that one in the photo worth in real world numbers? Sure some pretty wood on that one.

[Alvin Karpis]

A quick look thru auction sites like Gunbroker or Auction Arms will give you an idea as to values. Decent standard 1907s seem to be going for in the $500-800 range with deluxe models (deluxe wood and checkering) going for well over $1500 and higher now-a-days. I lucked into the standard one in the photo with the deluxe wood at the lower end of the standard range. Although I've never seen another non-Deluxe model 1907 with wood like this. I suspect it was special order but can't check because Winchester records for the 1907 don't cover my serial number.

AK

[The Boilermaker]

Boilermaker,

Very cool aftermarket 15-round mags! Who made them - any maker's marks? Thanks for the heads-up about these.

AK
No Markings on them.

[Bawanna]

A quick look thru auction sites like Gunbroker or Auction Arms will give you an idea as to values. Decent standard 1907s seem to be going for in the $500-800 range with deluxe models (deluxe wood and checkering) going for well over $1500 and higher now-a-days. I lucked into the standard one in the photo with the deluxe wood at the lower end of the standard range. Although I've never seen another non-Deluxe model 1907 with wood like this. I suspect it was special order but can't check because Winchester records for the 1907 don't cover my serial number.

AK

I'd have to agree you were both lucky and it was probably special order. That's a beutiful rifle for a standard. I truely don't know that much about them but my interest is kindled.

[Alvin Karpis]

Bawanna45cal,

Beware! That whole "kindled my interest" thing has cost me a couple thousand bucks so far between the rifles, Lebman mods, old ammo, .351 dies, Lyman .351 bullet mold, cast bullets, new brass and .351 bullet sizer. On the other hand, it's Zootshooter match legal (some SASS local Wild Bunch matches too) and a legitimate piece of early-middle 20th century firearms history (that few people seem to know about).

AK

[Bawanna]

Bawanna45cal,

Beware! That whole "kindled my interest" thing has cost me a couple thousand bucks so far between the rifles, Lebman mods, old ammo, .351 dies, Lyman .351 bullet mold, cast bullets, new brass and .351 bullet sizer. On the other hand, it's Zootshooter match legal (some SASS local Wild Bunch matches too) and a legitimate piece of early-middle 20th century firearms history (that few people seem to know about).

AK

Oh yeah, I know. My problem is I usually have about 10 kindled interest going at any one time. Can't seem to focus on any one type. Cowboy, modern, military, gangster, I'm like a shotgun when it comes to gun. I want one of each.

[Story]

I gather it passed to a new owner? (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=279341421)