1911 Experts, I Need Your Opinions...

[Markis82]

Please look here (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=163844#post163844) at posts 17 thru 21 and tell me what you think.

Thanks,
Mark

[TheTman]

Not an expert, but I don't think I'd go with GI sights. They are horrible, I don't think they were meant to really use much, just to not hang up on anything when you need your pistol out in a hurry. Of course those guys had much younger eyes than I do so maybe they were more usable to them. I kind of look at it as a weapon of last resort where you were doing more point shooting than aiming.
As far as value, I'd look at some of the auction sights and see what similar weapons are going for, and offer a bit less. I don't think the sights will matter that much to a WWII vet, as much as the weight and the feel of the gun will. These hero's are getting up in years, and I doubt if many could even use the GI sights, lord knows I have trouble with them. It is a nice looking gun, which has obviously had some work done on it, but I don't think that would diminish the nostalgic feeling a veteran might get when holding one. Especially if they haven't held one in awhile.
I'm also not certain how many men actually carried a 1911. I think they were issued mostly to officers and others that weren't in front line combat situations. For an enlisted man, it would just mean more weight, two different types of ammo to pack, and not be of much use except in close quarters combat. That's just my opinion I've got from reading and watching WWII movies and stuff. I have heard the guys in the pacific theater desired them more than their European counterparts, due to the banzai charges by the Japanese. Would be nice to have one when your position was about to be over run by fanatic troops. I guess they would be useful for clearing houses and such over in Europe, just not sure that they got issued to the front line troops.

[jg rider]

Please look here (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=163844#post163844) at posts 17 thru 21 and tell me what you think.

Thanks,
Mark

I can't tell if that's a trigger shoe or a welded build up. If it's a build up I don't know how you're gonna take out the trigger, if you had to, since it comes out the rear where the grip safety is.
The rear sight looks like an old MMC, so that dove tail is OK. Back then they either stacked in the front sights or silver soldered them on. Tall ones like those were usually silver soldered. If you're gonna replace the rear for a shorter one your gonna do a lot of filing on the front.

Here's my wifes Reminton Rand with a Wilson rear site that I think looks good on it

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/1911%20Pistols/Wifes%20Reminton%20Rand/005Jos1911.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/1911%20Pistols/Wifes%20Reminton%20Rand/002Jos1911.jpg

[cjm2022]

just get an auto ordinance

[Bawanna]

Pondering this last night that came to my mind too. Get an Auto Ordnance or even a new Remington. Both are exactly what you want to end up with. The Remington for pretty close to the same money. The AO only a bit more.

That's what I'd do. You get exactly what your looking for and you know the whole story being new.

[Tinman507]

I am seriously looking into an AO1911.
Trouble is locating one. Gun Genie chokes on it.

[dkmatthews]

Pondering this last night that came to my mind too. Get an Auto Ordnance or even a new Remington. Both are exactly what you want to end up with. The Remington for pretty close to the same money. The AO only a bit more.

That's what I'd do. You get exactly what your looking for and you know the whole story being new.

I'm no expert but I agree with Bawanna's reasoning.

[Markis82]

Yeah, I know. But the Remington Rand and Property of the US Army on the side cannot be duplicated. Just like, made in Prescott Az cannot on that SR 1911.

[dkmatthews]

I was recently given a bit of wisdom to chew on regarding old guns -- if there is no provenance, then it's just another piece of wood and steel regardless of the markings stamped on it.

[Markis82]

I was recently given a bit of wisdom to chew on regarding old guns -- if there is no provenance, then it's just another piece of wood and steel regardless of the markings stamped on it.I will have to ponder that. Occasionally, those markings have a sentimental value, no?

[Bawanna]

Good point on both counts.

[44 Deerslayer]

I've got one of those that I've had for many years. Back then they were so cheap that everyone modified them. I still have all the original parts and it's never been refinished so I could restore it.

The one you are looking at can't be restored because of the refinish. It's probably worth $650 as a shooter. With GI sights, still only a shooter. They don't wear as well as a modern steel one with todays heat treating.

I would get a modern one in the same price range. If you want a collector piece, you'll have to look someplace else and pay a lot more.

My 1945 Remington Rand:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1911a.JPG

[jg rider]

I will have to ponder that. Occasionally, those markings have a sentimental value, no?

Being older now, I did ponder over it, and if I had thought about the old markings on the wife's military Remington Rand I would never have done what I did to it. I would have left it stock. I knew for a fact it had seen combat in the European theater of WW II. I now wonder what history it had.

But back when I was young and viral (viral?) and anxious to show off what I could do, did I mention dumb, the history and markings meant nothing to me.

[jg rider]

I've got one of those that I've had for many years. Back then they were so cheap that everyone modified them. I still have all the original parts and it's never been refinished so I could restore it.

The one you are looking at can't be restored because of the refinish. It's probably worth $650 as a shooter. With GI sights, still only a shooter. They don't wear as well as a modern steel one with todays heat treating.

I would get a modern one in the same price range. If you want a collector piece, you'll have to look someplace else and pay a lot more.

My 1945 Remington Rand:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1911a.JPG

Bawanna,
Do you remember once calling me a murderer? ;)
We're a cult!

[dkmatthews]

I will have to ponder that. Occasionally, those markings have a sentimental value, no?

Sentiment is purely subjective and should be considered carefully in that light before deciding upon how sentiment affects real value. For example, following the extreme of the provenance logic, no matter how much a rifle or pistol might have been butchered at the hands of an owner (military or civilian), provenance applies to the serial number and not to the aethestics. The rifle or pistol could be battered beyond belief but the value is in the documented historical record associated with that firearm.

If that Remington Rand that caught your eye has no provenance, then the value is purely sentimental and mostly subjective. Don't expect to find anyone else to whom the firearm will be as dear as it is to you.

Especially for a firearm model (1911) that is still being produced today, a particular item without provenance is just another 1911. You might as well buy a new one and wait until you can find one with a documented historical record.

I am fond of the old Model 1903 variants and the M1 Garand rifles. I am, though, only chasing after those with provenance. If there's no documented history, then I just own it to shoot it and I'm careful to not get caught up in the enthusiasm of chasing sentimental guns.

[Bawanna]

Bawanna,
Do you remember once calling me a murderer? ;)
We're a cult!

I did but must remind you that you mentioned several others accusing you of defacing history first. I only said it as a joke following your earlier statements.

Do you remember telling me you didn't like me. I cried for 3 days.

Sometimes refinishing and improving is the right thing to do.

[Markis82]

Thank you all!! It is now a moot point. The seller was not willing to move from his $ figure. He can keep it and I'll keep looking. Thanks for suggestion about getting a new gun. However, I want one that has Remington Rand on it. I am not trying to create a gun that has resale value. I want to have a gun that is historically accurate to a WWII 1911 and not feel like I'm afraid of reducing value because I scratched it or anything. This will be an historically accurate shooter. It will be handled and used, a lot. I will keep looking and I will find the right gun.

[Bawanna]

That's the spirit Markis and now you got eyes all over the country helping you look for it.

It's out there, we just need to find it.

I fear though that what you seek will be perhaps far more than the asking price on this last one. BUT also worth it now and forever too if you find the right one.

[jg rider]

Thank you all!! It is now a moot point. The seller was not willing to move from his $ figure. He can keep it and I'll keep looking. Thanks for suggestion about getting a new gun. However, I want one that has Remington Rand on it. I am not trying to create a gun that has resale value. I want to have a gun that is historically accurate to a WWII 1911 and not feel like I'm afraid of reducing value because I scratched it or anything. This will be an historically accurate shooter. It will be handled and used, a lot. I will keep looking and I will find the right gun.

If I can offer a little input. The 40's era 1911s like Rem. Rand, Colt, Ithica, Singer, Union Signal & Switch were of a softer steel, frame and slide. The metallurgy wasn't there. I wouldn't think of putting +Ps or hot reloads through it very often. I saw 1 case where the frame cracked, and heard of others. Do you remember where the first 10mm Colt frames would cracked?

When my wife competed in IPSC, it required a power factor equal to military hard ball. I wasn't worried about the match grade Wilson barrel or the slide, I worried about the frame. I would install 2 shock buffs and an original designed military firing pin stop in her Rem. to reduce battering.
And no a stiffer recoil spring doesn't help. What doesn't get battered in one direction gets battered in the other, and effects sight realignment.

As a wise person once said, "I'm just saying"

[Markis82]

If I can offer a little input. The 40's era 1911s like Rem. Rand, Colt, Ithica, Singer, Union Signal & Switch were of a softer steel, frame and slide. The metallurgy wasn't there. I wouldn't think of putting +Ps or hot reloads through it very often. I saw 1 case where the frame cracked, and heard of others. Do you remember where the first 10mm Colt frames would cracked?

When my wife competed in IPSC, it required a power factor equal to military hard ball. I wasn't worried about the match grade Wilson barrel or the slide, I worried about the frame. I would install 2 shock buffs and an original designed military firing pin stop in her Rem. to reduce battering.
And no a stiffer recoil spring doesn't help. What doesn't get battered in one direction gets battered in the other, and effects sight realignment.

As a wise person once said, "I'm just saying"Thank you! I will keep all that info in mind. The purpose of this project is one of learning and remembering. For the younger, I can show and explain this was what the one's who saved the world used etc... The younger can shoot it, get the feeling of how difficult the combat sights were to use, compair to today's modern version etc... The vets and hold, feel, and capture those memories often tucked far way. I plan to never use +P in the gun. For that matter, I'd never use +P in anything but a modern gun. I would also try to find someone who would hand load some slightly under powered rounds to use with this gun, just to make sure.