loading a single round

[TheBeak]

I know this has been discussed in general on many forums (with a variety of answers...), but I wanted to ask the question to the experts here, specifically for the CW9.

Is it safe to drop the slide on a single round in the chamber (as a means to load a single round) or must the round be stripped off a magazine?

I'd love to read your "why's" as well as just a yes/no please.

Thanks!

[Planedude]

Load from the mag, as the extractor may not engage the chambered round. This is especially true with new guns with sharp edged extractors.
It's easy to do from the mag, just load, drop the mag and top it off with another.

That's what I do. Welcome to the Forum!

[Dmitri]

Very far from "an expert", but I would agree (and always do) with loading from the mag -- one round into empty mag (easier to put in, compared to loading the full mag first), then get it in, and then load full mag and attach again.

As for "why's" -- that's easy: it was specifically designed to be loaded that way... :) That really IS the only way a cartridge is supposed to make its way into the chamber. So it's got to be the most efficient and effective way of doing it.

[Yogi 117]

Very far from "an expert", but I would agree (and always do) with loading from the mag -- one round into empty mag (easier to put in, compared to loading the full mag first), then get it in, and then load full mag and attach again.

As for "why's" -- that's easy: it was specifically designed to be loaded that way... :) That really IS the only way a cartridge is supposed to make its way into the chamber. So it's got to be the most efficient and effective way of doing it.
+1...agreed! :)

[wyntrout]

According to Kahr's manual, the extractor can be damaged by inserting a round into the chamber and then releasing the slide. Use a magazine to load a round, then top the mag off and make sure the top round is fully to the rear in the magazine. This should give you at least two shots without trouble.

Wynn:)

[warbird1]

The manual is specific on this issue as wyntrout says.

[jocko]

Read ur owners manual!!!!!

[OldLincoln]

I would avoid releasing the slide from lock on a chambered round. The slamming of the extractor against the rim is what causes the damage.

Conversely, I polished the extractor face to a near ramp like feel and gently lower the slide against it, then press the slide pushing the extractor over the rim. It may not be the best thing but I don't believe it harms anything - of course I may be 100% wrong and regret it someday.

[TheBeak]

Read ur owners manual!!!!!

LOL, I did, of course - but many items in owners manuals are written by lawyers, not engineers.

thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate the thoughts.

[TheBeak]

so I'm trying to picture the round coming up out of the mag and being pushed into the chamber by the slide face.

Following the line of thinking that dropping the slide on a chambered round is bad, would you believe that the extractor is engage the case rim "in flight" before the round chambers?

I understood from before my post that there are tons of "its bad for the extractor" responses headed my way - the why I'm still looking for is related to how the extractor is grabbing the cartridge with out it hitting home first. (the cartridge is ahead of the slide face the whole way after all.)

Off to try and find some high speed video shots in slow mo...

[jocko]

normally that is right but n the kahr manul there are a few very important topics that every owner needs to know before he does anything. Oh yes some lawyers are also engineers so u can imagine then just how fokke dup a owners manual can get.

Also on the kahr webb site they have a thread called freguently asked questions. some things posted there of interest ...

welcome aboard Beak. certainly by now u have read enough on this forum to see that we are certainly here to help not cirticise.

[Bawanna]

LOL, I did, of course - but many items in owners manuals are written by lawyers, not engineers.

thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate the thoughts.

Your exactly correct on the usual authors of owners manuals, truly a lot of filler that most folks just can't be bothered to read mixed in with a few precious solid pieces of good information but this question is black and white and not hearsay.
Some autos with external extractors, the old Smiths, the Sigs, even the short lived Kimbers with external extractors you could get away with an occasional single round load.

Most others your gambling big time and especially in a Kahr. Things are tight and that extractor isn't designed to slip over the case rim no way no how.
It will do it maybe lots of times or maybe once or it might break on the first try.
I'd strongly suggest loading from magazine without fail and not risk it.

I'm of course not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

[TheBeak]

so far...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRnF5fcZoOc

looks like the barrel doesn't rotate up into battery until right as the slide closes the chamber. (potentially bringing the cartridge lip up from under the extractor either way)

Ill see if I can find a better video angle.

[TheBeak]

thanks for entertaining the actual conversation on this. I like to obey the manuals rules, but I like to understand them as well.

I just want to better understand how the extractor and the cartridge meet either way.

[jocko]

so far...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRnF5fcZoOc

looks like the barrel doesn't rotate up into battery until right as the slide closes the chamber. (potentially bringing the cartridge lip up from under the extractor either way)

Ill see if I can find a better video angle.

hence the name "lock breech".

[LampShadeActual]

I think what they are trying to tell you is that with a Kahr, it is like a Mauser controlled round feed. As the cartridge and rim leave the magazine, the rim slides up the breech face and goes under the extractor from the bottom, rather than the extractor popping over the rim as the case mouth seats in the chamber.

This uses very little slide energy as the spring closes the slide and lifts the barrel.

When the cartridge is placed directly into the chamber on purpose AND the extractor has to jump over rim at the weakest time in the slide spring cycle, just as the barrel rises to lock, there is a good likelyhood of the cycle being interrupted or ended at inconsistent points, neither of which promote function or accuracy.

If I were giving you a SWAG, accurate to one RCH, +/- 47 such units, the real reason is the reliable function reason. You WANT the first round fully seated and the barrel locked. This is best done by letting the magazine guide the round from the bottom up. It is also the most consistent.

My advice is that if the manufacturer gives you specific directions about something, follow them. You don't have to understand everything, you just have to do it.

[jocko]

what he said!!

Kahrs extractor is massive. it is built like a tank. I can't remember ever seeing an extractor broke.

[OldLincoln]

Some time ago I tried to duplicate the feed action manually by putting some resistance on the round as it slid forward off the mag lips - just enough to keep it from snapping out uncontrolled. Every time the extractor grabbed the rim as advertised. I was surprised as I had been told that controlled feed was the domain of the 1911 design.

I had in the past declared that the Kahr design was a "toss and catch" design intended to toss the nose into the chamber entrance and let the slide ram it home. It's very hard for a two handed human to duplicate without the recoil and mag springs doing their thing but it does seem to work well and comes across as a controlled feed.

Maybe one of our resident experts can give us a definitive answer.

[skiflydive]

I think what they are trying to tell you is that with a Kahr, it is like a Mauser controlled round feed. As the cartridge and rim leave the magazine, the rim slides up the breech face and goes under the extractor from the bottom, rather than the extractor popping over the rim as the case mouth seats in the chamber.


A really close inspection of the extractor seems to confirm this. The extractor lip is beveled and radiused to allow the rim of the shell to slide up the breech face and settle in place.

[downtownv]

Good question; Great answers!

[cobrasjp]

Some time ago I tried to duplicate the feed action manually by putting some resistance on the round as it slid forward off the mag lips - just enough to keep it from snapping out uncontrolled. Every time the extractor grabbed the rim as advertised. I was surprised as I had been told that controlled feed was the domain of the 1911 design.

I had in the past declared that the Kahr design was a "toss and catch" design intended to toss the nose into the chamber entrance and let the slide ram it home. It's very hard for a two handed human to duplicate without the recoil and mag springs doing their thing but it does seem to work well and comes across as a controlled feed.

Maybe one of our resident experts can give us a definitive answer.
Easy way to tell - color the front of the extractor with magic marker or Dyekem layout blueing. Shoot a few rounds. Then check if the coloring was rubbed off the front of the extractor. If the coloring is still there (and I bet it will be) then there is controlled feed of the round from the magazine and the case rim slides under the extractor hook from the bottom.

[TheBeak]

Easy way to tell - color the front of the extractor with magic marker or Dyekem layout blueing. Shoot a few rounds. Then check if the coloring was rubbed off the front of the extractor. If the coloring is still there (and I bet it will be) then there is controlled feed of the round from the magazine and the case rim slides under the extractor hook from the bottom.

Interesting idea, thanks for the answer.

Given that there is no way I can tell to "slow down" the action to look and see (outside the realm of high speed photography shots I was hoping to find), this would give some clue as to how the extractor was meeting the case.

[TheBeak]

So, to use more succinct terminology:

The Kahr CW9 uses a controlled feed rather than a push feed system to chamber cartridges, it that correct?

[gb6491]

So, to use more succinct terminology:

The Kahr CW9 uses a controlled feed rather than a push feed system to chamber cartridges, it that correct?
In my estimation, that is correct.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1ntMjiH6I&list=UUhkhLZjxQWiU7dgGPJUDrPw&index=9&feature=plcp
Regards,
Greg

[yqtszhj]

As the cartridge and rim leave the magazine, the rim slides up the breech face and goes under the extractor from the bottom, rather than the extractor popping over the rim as the case mouth seats in the chamber.


What he said. I did it in slow motion with a snap cap and my CM9 rounds slide right up the breech face behind the extractor when heading for the chamber.

[TheBeak]

In my estimation, that is correct.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1ntMjiH6I&list=UUhkhLZjxQWiU7dgGPJUDrPw&index=9&feature=plcp
Regards,
Greg

great find on that video - looks like controlled feed to me!

[KahrArmed]

According to Kahr's manual, the extractor can be damaged by inserting a round into the chamber and then releasing the slide. Use a magazine to load a round, then top the mag off and make sure the top round is fully to the rear in the magazine. This should give you at least two shots without trouble.

Wynn:)

LOL at least two shots! God forbid you need to use 3.

(Not being snarkey, just thought that was funny)

[jocko]

In my estimation, that is correct.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1ntMjiH6I&list=UUhkhLZjxQWiU7dgGPJUDrPw&index=9&feature=plcp
Regards,
Greg

gregg, if a person would only watch that video, he wouldthen realize that evrything has to be in unison for the gun to work right. The slightest thing out of time and the gun will not do what your fideo is showing.

excellent video, also IMO shows where recoil springs in most cases are the culprit or at least the first thing to replace in case u have issues. It takes spring power to do what your video showed.

Nice job--as usual..:D

[muggsy]

Like finger nails on a chalk board, I can't stand it when someone uses the slide release to return the slide to battery on an empty gun. Slam, bam, thank you ma'am.

[Tinman507]

CrbKn5boVPA

[Bawanna]

Like finger nails on a chalk board, I can't stand it when someone uses the slide release to return the slide to battery on an empty gun. Slam, bam, thank you ma'am.

Me too? Especially on a 1911, sling shot with gusto when loading but when it's empty treat it kindly.
I have a detective that instinctively wants to sling shot after checking for empty, does it without thinking.
I remind him anytime he holds one of mine, no longer an issue since mine will be in the van.

[jg rider]

I would avoid releasing the slide from lock on a chambered round. The slamming of the extractor against the rim is what causes the damage.

Conversely, I polished the extractor face to a near ramp like feel and gently lower the slide against it, then press the slide pushing the extractor over the rim. It may not be the best thing but I don't believe it harms anything - of course I may be 100% wrong and regret it someday.

I agree 100% with OldLincoln. I've been lowering the slide and then pushing the slides on all 4 of our Kahrs 3 x a week when done practicing since 1999, and we're still using the original extractors. All I did as OldLoncoln did was polish the front face of the extractor. And for more reliable mag feeding I beveled the bottom corner of the the hook. The Kahrs have a really steep ramp angle and with the nose first dipping down it makes it even worse for the bullet nose hitting the ramp. Repeated chambering of the same round out of the mag will cause bullet set back.
If it's to hard to get the the extractor to ride over the rim you can alway cut coils off of the extractor spring or shorten the rod. AFAIK all an extractor is for is to hold and help guide the case back against the ejector, not pull the case out out.

I know that people say that you shouldn't do this with a 1911, but again with a newer style tuned extractor I've been doing it for years. I'm frugal, I only want to fire my SD rounds once a year, so I want the chambered round to always be the same one

Does anyone know of any centerfire pistols that aren't controlled feed? Maybe the tip up barrel types?