Bad experience 1st time at range with new PM9

[JoeSixPack]

Friend and I went to the range a few hours ago.

1st time shooting my new Kahr PM9 I bought last week.

I had high hopes... The PM9 looked good, felt good in my hand...

Was shooting Speer Lawman 147gr. TMJ ball

1st 4 mags it failed to strip the 2nd round after firing the first round.

Would put the mag in, press the slide release, pull the trigger, it would fire and leave the slide locked open having failed to strip the 2nd round out the mag.

I then tried loading just 5 rounds. It managed to shoot that mag without jaming.

Went back to 6 rounds and same thing. At least every other mag is would fail to strip the 2nd round.

After shooting about 50 rounds through it with it still failing to strip the 2nd round nearly every mag, I thought, maybe it just don't like the ammo I'm using. Not sure why, would think that ball would be the least likely to jam.

Anyway, my friend had a box Russian Silver Bear 145gr. nickel plated steel case HP so I figured wth... It can't shoot any worse and I was wrong.

First round I fired failed to eject and the gun jamed. I dropped the mag and cleared the live round jammed into the rear of the fired round that was stuck in the chamber, then dropped the slide hoping I could then rack it back and remove the fired round stuck in the chamber.

All this suceeded into doing was jamming the gun up tight were I couldn't even pull the slide back.

So much for my new $600 pistol...

When I got home I was able to put a wooden dowell in the barrel and drive the stuck case out of the chamber.

At this point I'm pretty much ready to get rid of the gun.

It was really accurate when it would fire but there's no way I would trust the pistol for CCW

My friend who had been shooting his Springfield Compact XD(M) without a glitch just laughed at me.

[jocko]

not much of a friend to laugh at one who is having issues..

I would check to see if the rounds are hitting the inside of the slide stop lever and pre engaging it. Next I would try a box of 115 grain fmj ammo to see if it duplicates the issue

u might want to check in the kahr tech section and hit on the sticky: Propper prepping of ur kahr. Before u callkahr, I would atleasttry to eliminate some of the possabilities of the issues. If u call kahr or email them advise them the gun isnew and thatthey should issue a pre paid pick up on the gun. I would also tell them exactly what u have doneto check out possable issues to. Give them soemthing to go with, like ur 147 grain ammo not working etc and maybe 115 grain ammo working etc.

oh by the way. GET A NEW FRIEND.

[JoeSixPack]

At this point I'm not sure what to do. I've got a spare 6 round mag on the way. I didn't have the 7 round mag with me so I could try it and see if it was the mag.

If it's failing to strip the 2nd round every other mag is that possibly a bad mag?

[PYROhafe]

Whatever you do (besides get a new friend asap) dont lose faith in that pm9! I have the cm9 (Cheap Mans version) and love it. Once you get the small kinks worked out of that pm9 (luckily never had any problems with my cm9) it will be hands down the best carry gun you can find! Keep your chin up, and keep faith that the pm9 will be right... even if it means a trip back to kahr for service. (im sure some of the xds have been back too) They have great customer service, and great carry pistols!

[JoeSixPack]

not much of a friend to laugh at one who is having issues..

I would check to see if the rounds are hitting the inside of the slide stop lever and pre engaging it. Next I would try a box of 115 grain fmj ammo to see if it duplicates the issue

u might want to check in the kahr tech section and hit on the sticky: Propper prepping of ur kahr. Before u callkahr, I would atleasttry to eliminate some of the possabilities of the issues. If u call kahr or email them advise them the gun isnew and thatthey should issue a pre paid pick up on the gun. I would also tell them exactly what u have doneto check out possable issues to. Give them soemthing to go with, like ur 147 grain ammo not working etc and maybe 115 grain ammo working etc.

oh by the way. GET A NEW FRIEND.

#6 To check to see if you have any issues with the slide lock lever hitting the rounds in the magazine, take the slide off and insert the slide lock lever, then reinsert a loaded magazine. Check to see if the top round is hitting the slide lock lever and moving it upward. That is a NO-NO.

What do you do if this is true? Don't know if this might be my problem but what if the top round is hitting the slide lock lever?

[jocko]

At this point I'm not sure what to do. I've got a spare 6 round mag on the way. I didn't have the 7 round mag with me so I could try it and see if it was the mag.

If it's failing to strip the 2nd round every other mag is that possibly a bad mag?

be odd if it was mag related being it does OK with 5 rounds in it.

check ur magazine to verify the mag spring is in correctly to. It has happened before. failing to strip theround, is that saying the slide is not pickup up the round to feed it into the chamber??? U could have a very very stout recoil spring in the gun that is not allowing the slide to fully retract to pick up that 2nd round but again IMO it would be strange thatit does OK with the rest of the rounds. There is on the propper prepping thread a subject metter of the magazine release button causing the follower to stick a tad on round 2/3. this is easy to check out to, I would definitley look in that direction to. takes a few minutes to verify if the magazine reliease button is grabbing onto that follower as it moves into the mag tube cut out at round 2/3. Oly takes alittle hesitation on that follower for the slide to not pick up that round, u saying it does OK with 5 rounds kinda tells me that now the follower is past that mag tube cutoutso it cannot grab onto the magazine release button.

Basically the gun can't count and being consistant on rond 2/3 could very well be the follower grabbing the mag release button...

[ParabellumJ]

be odd if it was mag related being it does OK with 5 rounds in it.

Basically the gun can't count and being consistant on rond 2/3 could very well be the follower grabbing the mag release button...

I agree, sounds like the follower is contacting the mag release. That would be the first thing I checked. Also, Kahr specifically recommends not using steel cased ammo.

And on an unrelated side note, while I shot 200 perfect rounds through my PM9 yesterday at the range, the guy next to me had FTF issues every other round in a Springfield XD. Just sayin.

[crazymailman]

With the gun working with 5 rounds and not 6, it makes me think that the mag spring is putting a little too much pressure on the top round, and slowing the slide just enough to not allow it to travel all the way to the rear.

If it were me, I would lock the slide to the rear, fully load the mag for about 24-48 hours to loosen up the springs a bit. Next, I would make certain to lube the pickup rail (#9 on the lube diagram) and try something like NATO 124gr ammo to get the gun to loosen up.

[jocko]

I agree, sounds like the follower is contacting the mag release. That would be the first thing I checked. Also, Kahr specifically recommends not using steel cased ammo.

And on an unrelated side note, while I shot 200 perfect rounds through my PM9 yesterday at the range, the guy next to me had FTF issues every other round in a Springfield XD. Just sayin.

now u done it,ur gonna piss off the xd owners, forthey are alot like glock fans. THEY NEVER FAIL. Just sayin:D

[JoeSixPack]

be odd if it was mag related being it does OK with 5 rounds in it.

check ur magazine to verify the mag spring is in correctly to. It has happened before. failing to strip theround, is that saying the slide is not pickup up the round to feed it into the chamber??? U could have a very very stout recoil spring in the gun that is not allowing the slide to fully retract to pick up that 2nd round but again IMO it would be strange thatit does OK with the rest of the rounds. There is on the propper prepping thread a subject metter of the magazine release button causing the follower to stick a tad on round 2/3. this is easy to check out to, I would definitley look in that direction to. takes a few minutes to verify if the magazine reliease button is grabbing onto that follower as it moves into the mag tube cut out at round 2/3. Oly takes alittle hesitation on that follower for the slide to not pick up that round, u saying it does OK with 5 rounds kinda tells me that now the follower is past that mag tube cutoutso it cannot grab onto the magazine release button.

Basically the gun can't count and being consistant on rond 2/3 could very well be the follower grabbing the mag release button...

"failing to strip theround, is that saying the slide is not pickup up the round to feed it into the chamber???"

That is correct.

Stout recoil spring would be an understatement. I've never had a pistol with a slide as hard to rack as this PM9. I mean, it's easily 5 times as stiff as my Glock. So yes, the recoil spring is very, very stiff.

I can't find the sticky you mentioned about the mag hitting the slide lock and this fix for that. You have a link to that thread?

P.S. I was shooting the pistol right out of the box. I had not lubed it at all. Just finished breaking it down and lubing it per instructions in the tech section. But I really doubt think this was a lube problem.

[Tinman507]

Sorry to hear you had issues. Stick with this one. I promise it's a keeper. So many PM9 success stories here. Strip it, clean it, lube it up. Some find running it wet during breakin helps. Check the mag issues. Even if it needs a trip to the mothership, it's still a keeper.

[jocko]

joe6pack. PM sent. tryin to help u allI can..

[Bill K]

Don't give up! I had a slide stop issue with my then new PM9. Contacted Kahr and received a new slide stop lever (along with exchange of a faulty 7 rounder for a 6 rounder). When the new part arrived I honed down the original asd instructed by folks here and issued was solved. Keep meaning too but have not yet tried the new part.

[jocko]

I had 3 slide stops replaced on my Para carry 9 before it got over its issue.

[Sage]

I shoot Lawman 147gr through my PM9 all the time with no issues. Don't give up on the gun yet. My first bet would be that there's an issue with the magazine. If the mag is ok or not I would follow the sticky mentioned above and while watching tv set and rack it about 500 times. If you get this gun working I really believe you're going to love it.

[gb6491]

"failing to strip theround, is that saying the slide is not pickup up the round to feed it into the chamber???"

That is correct.

Stout recoil spring would be an understatement. I've never had a pistol with a slide as hard to rack as this PM9. I mean, it's easily 5 times as stiff as my Glock. So yes, the recoil spring is very, very stiff.

I can't find the sticky you mentioned about the mag hitting the slide lock and this fix for that. You have a link to that thread?

P.S. I was shooting the pistol right out of the box. I had not lubed it at all. Just finished breaking it down and lubing it per instructions in the tech section. But I really doubt think this was a lube problem.


With the gun working with 5 rounds and not 6, it makes me think that the mag spring is putting a little too much pressure on the top round, and slowing the slide just enough to not allow it to travel all the way to the rear....
I think that's a likely scenario crazymailman, especially considering the pistol was being shot right out of the box and had not been lubed at all by the OP.
Regards,
Greg

[JoeSixPack]

Might have just figured out what the problem is...

From Jocko

"take the magazine and load it and then slowly pop each round out by hand until you see that follower come into view with that slot in the magazine. If u have a little scribe, or pin head, just outline that follower.

MNow take the floor plate off themagazine and pull the spring and follower out. look at ur mark u made, now with a fine file or some mdeium gri sand paper just file/sand down in that scrobed area and retest in thegun until it slides past that magazine button.

a good way to put thatmmag spring in to kso it doesn'tburtr anyone is to push it in the magaze as far as u can by hand and then in that last hole jusrt slide a nail througfh it and it will keep that spring in without any tension, then what is hanging out, just gentley push it in and put the floor plate back on.

ONow to seeif u sanded enought off, with the floor plate off the maazine and no spring in there either, after sanding/filing, just drop the follower in the magazine well that is now in thegun and see if it just slides right past that button, If so you have went far enoough. Why they do this is odd and smetimes like yhours it shows up after rounds are shot therogh the gun. I attribute that to maybe the mag catch now wearing in some from being so new and it is hitting that follower. I wold not mess with filing the mag catch but only the follower. U can't realy hurt anything by messing with the follower for the worstu can do is ruin the follower and u just buy another one, the best u can do is fix this little issue yourseof.

----

I followed the instructions here and as Jocko suspected, the follower was hanging on the mag release catch that extends into the mag well and through a hole in the magazine.

When I slide the follower up it hung on the mag release catch. I actually had to jiggle it pretty hard to get it past the mag release catch.

If you slide the follower up the disasembled mag past the hole in the side of the mag where the mag release catch grabs the mag you can see the part of the follower that needs to be sanded down.

I took a file sharper and rubbed that edge of the follower a few times, barely took any plastic off and now the follower slides up the tube without snagging.

I'm amazed that Kahr wouldn't have fixed something this simple by now.

I think the real problem here may not be the follower, it's that the part of mag
release that catches on the mag protrudes into the mag tube. If you insert the disassembled mag tube into the pistol with the slide removed you can see the mag release sticking through the mag and coming slightly inside the mag tube. Press the mag release button just a touch and it will be flush with the mag tube but the mag will still be locked in the mag well.

My guess if getting that kind of perfect allignment in a plastic frame is probably pretty tough so slightly modifying the follower would probably be the way for Kahr to go here.

It's going to be a week before I can get back to the range but I'll bet a box of donuts this was the problem.

[jocko]

according to joe6pak in an email to me, the follower is indeed grabbing the magazine release button big time.. He knows the fix, nowhe just needs to do it and retest at the range.

[jocko]

u could call kahr and ask for a new mag release button also and just have it around. Some might just be out of spec. I just find it alot easier to work the follower over instead of pullin the mag rlease button out and rtying to rework it. Take to much off an dur screwed, With the follower at bestu ruin a follower and put in a new one.

I hope this mod gets u going, but for sure before u hit kthe range make sure the gun is cleaned, and lubed properly (kahr lube chart) on kahr tech section is super. Recoil spring on correctly. eliminate all the possabilities and then shoot it like u stole it.

I have found o the right side of the followertowards the front of the frollower there is like a ledge/lip that u can feel with your finger but sometimes hard to see. Round that corner off and smooth it up with some fine paper and normally that is all that is needed to do the job right.

[yqtszhj]

Welcome to the forum. For sure hang in here with us and you'll get it running like a champ. You probably got both of these threads:

Proper prep of a new Kahr:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1521

Proper Lube Diagram:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=308

What you're experiencing is something that's been seen before and the folks here will put you on top of it. After tweaking the issue and cleaning up the gun real good head out with 2 boxes of FMJ ammo, maybe 115 grain, and be prepared to enjoy that new Kahr. I have 800+ thorough my CM9 and had over 1000 through the CW9 I previously owned with no problem at all that I can remember, and I love these guns so much I going to get another. Also the Kahr triggers will really grow on you too.

Go enjoy that new gun and your buddy will be jealous next time.

[jocko]

thanksfor posting those two threads ygtszhj...

[JoeSixPack]

Updated thread title from 'Horrible experience' to 'Bad experience'...

Horrible would be like, the gun blew up or burst into flames... Now that I might have a fix, bad should be sufficient;)

[Tinman507]

Hopefully you can edit it soon to Acceptable Experience.
Thanks Jocko for your knowledge and experience.

[jocko]

don't count ur chickens until they hatch!!! Jsut sayin

[yqtszhj]

thanksfor posting those two threads ygtszhj...

That's the only 2 threads that I know where they are. I can never find any other ones I'm looking for. It's like opening the refrigerator door looking for ketchup and asking the wife where it is, then she comes over and it's on the shelf right in front of me. Then she gives me the "eye roll" :19:

[ParabellumJ]

now u done it,ur gonna piss off the xd owners, forthey are alot like glock fans. THEY NEVER FAIL. Just sayin:D
Funny you say that because my wife (who is just dying to get an XDm) was in denial when I told her about it. She said "well, its an XD, not XDm". "Riiiiight" I said. And yes, I am a Glock fan, so it made me smile a bit. Should be interesting when I finally get her that XDm. All I know is the rivalry in house has started.

[JoeSixPack]

Update...

Just got in two new 6 round Kahr mags for my PM9

Checked the follower in both of them and the follower snagged on the mag release just like the one they came with the gun from the factory.

I filed the side on the follower that was snagging the mag release and now they don't snag anymore.

I'm having doubts again. If the follower in three difference mags all snag on the mag release then something else must be wrong.

I'll find out Saturday when I go back to the range.

[jocko]

well u could have a mag release button that is out of spec, and "maybe" a new replacement might have taken care of that, BUT u doN't know either.

IMO u did the correct thing and made the followers work perfectly. Whether this solves ur orignal issues or not, only rounds down range will prove that out, so for the time being, don't assume anything. Go out and shoot the gun and it will tell u. My opinion-- is u fixed the feed issue.

I have said before it is an easier mod thing to do with the followers than the mag release button, for it is in and then out and file some more and put back together etc and retest. Go to far and magazine fall out at will, the u fokked up, screw up a follower, no big deal get another follower and ur back to first base..

there is no doubt that follower is not supposed to grab onto the mag release button, so for sure u have eliminated that possability by what u did..

[CarlCyrus]

I had a slide stop/release button that was out of spec and hung too far out into the magazine well. In my case, the nose of the bullets were touching the slide stop and causing what we call here as "premature slide-lock."

Ended up getting a new slide stop from Kahr and filed a few thousands off the nose of the old slide stop. Filed a bit, polished a bit, shot a bit, and repeated a couple of times until I had a perfect slide stop. Now my PM9 is 100% reliable and I trust it to be my only carry piece.

Somewhere back in Kahr Talk history you will find my thread with some pics of the problem and the fix. This should be it: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6066

Don't give up...the PM9 is a fantastic weapon. Break her in like Jocko says to, get the slide stop and mag follower right and then shoot her like you stole her.

Carl

[JoeSixPack]

OK... just got back from the range shooting 378 rounds of mixed ammo.

Here's the report.

I was shooting 3 factory 6 round mags. The followers in all three had been filed to prevent them from snagging on the mag release and the pistol was clean and lubed per Kahr's lube guide.

3 mags of Spear 147gr FMJ Flatnose - No failures.

1 box of 50 Spear 147gr FMJ flatnose - No failures.

1 box of 50 American Eagle 147gr FMJ flatnose - No failures.

1 box of 20 Federal 115gr JHP C9BP - No failures

1 box of 20 Gold-Dot 124gr. JHP +P - No failures.

2 boxes of 50 Spear 124gr. FMJ pointed round nose. - 2 failures to feed. Cartridges nose dived. This was the longest length cartridge of the bunch, so long, the end of the bullet actually touched the front of the mag.

1 box Federal 147gr. HST JHP +P - 2 failure to feed. Slide kicked back and locked with rounds still in the magazine. Pressed slide release and slide went forward and chambered another round and round fired.

1 box Federal 115 gr. JHP +P+ - 1 failure to feed. Slide kicked back and locked with rounds still in the magazine. Pressed slide release and slide went forward and chambered another round and round fired.

So basicially, 5 failures to feed out of 378 rounds. That's a MTBS (Mean time between stoppages) of 75.6 rounds (still very bad)

Looks like I also have the "premature slide-lock" problem described in the previous post. Maybe if I break out a file again I can fix this but I'm not. I'm done with the PM9 and Kahr.

This is not an isolated incident (see link to thread in previous post) and it's obvious Kahr knows about these problems with magazine followers snagging on the mag release, some brands of ammo hitting the slide lock actuator causing premature slide-lock.

I'll trade my new PM9 on another brand of pistol and and consider it a lesson learned.

I really wanted to like this pistol and had planned on buying a 2nd one if I liked the 1st one.

But when you buy a new pistol and it's got multiple problems that the manufacturer obviously knows about and hasn't fixed then it pretty much destroys your trust in the manufacturer which in turn makes it impossible to trust your life with their product.

[kerby9mm]

I agree with you 100%. I love my 2 mk pistols and feel that they are well made and they are reliable but I will not defend a company that knows about defects in some of their guns and does not fix them and continues to ship certain models anyway. They will continue to do so until sales drop. If you were looking for a gun and you read this forum closely for a few weeks would you buy a Kahr.

[yqtszhj]

I was looking to see if you spoke with Kahr but I don't see where you have. The main thing I see is that you have had a problem with 115gr. FMJ but shot a lot of other types successfully. It should shoot 115 gr factory loads.

If you haven't called Kahr I would say you still have a missed step. If you call and explain nicely what you have shot and what you have experienced with a new PM9 you would probably find that they would send you a shipping label and fix it up right for you promptly. particularly since you have had multiple issues.

I have bought 10 handguns in the last 2-3 years and only one has had some FTE issue and it was not a one of my Kahr's. It was a Bersa that if you read the reviews everyone says "They NEVER have a problem." Well my one did so I understand your frustration but they can fix it if we give them the chance.

I would recommend to call Kahr and give them a chance. If you do get rid of the PM9 don't buy a Gen 4 Glock.

[JoeSixPack]

For anyone interested, here's what it looked like when the slide would lock back with rounds still in the mag.

Probably can't tell anything from these photos.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l592/JohnGalt2012/2012-06-09_11-00-41_563.jpg

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l592/JohnGalt2012/2012-06-09_11-00-39_515.jpg

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l592/JohnGalt2012/2012-06-09_11-00-26_46.jpg

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l592/JohnGalt2012/2012-06-09_11-00-21_19.jpg

[yqtszhj]

So when it's like this can you hit the mag release and the round load and fire or does it hang up ? Either way I'd call Kahr and get them to fix it. They should be more than willing. I have a CM9 and CW9 that have been flawless for hundreds and hundreds of rounds from day one so don't give up yet.

[JoeSixPack]

So when it's like this can you hit the mag release and the round load and fire or does it hang up ? Either way I'd call Kahr and get them to fix it. They should be more than willing. I have a CM9 and CW9 that have been flawless for hundreds and hundreds of rounds from day one so don't give up yet.

Yes, I can hit the mag release and it will strip the round and fire with no problems.

I've decided to get rid of it and get a Ruger LCR .357 w/boot grips. It will always go bang.

I'll let someone else deal with sending it back to Kahr.

[Barth]

Yes, I can hit the mag release and it will strip the round and fire with no problems.

I've decided to get rid of it and get a Ruger LCR .357 w/boot grips. It will always go bang.

I'll let someone else deal with sending it back to Kahr.

Sorry to hear about your issues with the Kahr.
I have a .38 and two 357 magnums.
The 11.1 oz S&W 342 ti gets Speer GDHP 135 +P Short Barrel rounds.
I've tried a wide variaty of 357 Mangums in my S&W 640 snubbie
and settled on Remington Golden Sabers.

Deadly accurate, high quality and manageable recoil in the small magnum.
Full house 1450 fps 4" ammo only runs ~1200 from a 2" barrel and kicks like a mule.

Sabers run 1220 from 4", but still run ~1100 from a 2".
(and ~1190 from my three inch 65-3!)
Give um a try, and good luck.

[warbird1]

Unfortunate. That's a lot of ammo to fire without letting Kahr look at a pistol that is under warranty. I have a PM9 that is having a problem with light primer strikes. Everything else is perfect. I sent it back to them thru my LGS 2 weeks ago. Should be back soon. Will hold my judgement until they have a chance to look at it. I am staying positive.

I also have the Ruger KLCR. Great gun but it is bigger than the Kahr if you plan on pocket carry.

[kerby9mm]

Why not send the gun back on Kahr's dime and make them spend some man/hours trying to fix the gun. There is a chance that they can fix it. If it goes back it adds to their list of defective guns that they lose profit on so maybe some day they will upgrade QC.

[Barth]

Unfortunate. That's a lot of ammo to fire without letting Kahr look at a pistol that is under warranty. I have a PM9 that is having a problem with light primer strikes. Everything else is perfect. I sent it back to them thru my LGS 2 weeks ago. Should be back soon. Will hold my judgement until they have a chance to look at it. I am staying positive.

I also have the Ruger KLCR. Great gun but it is bigger than the Kahr if you plan on pocket carry.

+1

I didn't realize it's a new gun, under warranty, having major issues
and you haven't shipped it back to the mother-ship once?

I'd box it up with a full box of the most offending ammo.
And give Kahr at least one chance to make it right.
Any manufacturer mass producing something can let a lemon get out now and then.

You could propose swapping for another model too.
I think your chances of getting a bad MK9 are real close to zero.

[JFootin]

+1

I didn't realize it's a new gun, under warranty, having major issues
and you haven't shipped it back to the mother-ship once?

I'd box it up with a full box of the most offending ammo.
And give Kahr at least one chance to make it right.
Any manufacturer mass producing something can let a lemon get out now and then.

You could propose swapping for another model too.
I think your chances of getting a bad MK9 are real close to zero.

DO NOT send ammo with your gun! That's a very big no no with Kahr.

[Barth]

DO NOT send ammo with your gun! That's a very big no no with Kahr.

Bar Sto requested ammo with the barrel
to deal with feeding problems.

My local gunsmith requested ammo along with the gun to fix
feeding problems with my Storm Lake and P220 as well.

I've never had to send my MK40 anywhere.

[JFootin]

Bar Sto requested ammo with the barrel
to deal with feeding problems.

My local gunsmith requested ammo along with the gun to fix
feeding problems with my Storm Lake and P220 as well.

I've never had to send my MK40 anywhere.

But Kahr says no go on their return instructions.

[Barth]

But Kahr says no go on their return instructions.

I understand.
But like Jocko,
I'm just saying

Plus it just makes sense to let the gunsmith test his/her work.
And verify it's really fixed before sending it home.
I don't foresee my MK40 Elite will ever need to visit the mother-ship anyway LOL!

All this MK40 talk has got me itching for the range!
I may need to grab two boxes of Winchester Ranger HP 180s and some targets.

Update:
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo29/d3/a5/44e7a240335a__1339432089000.jpeg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false