Will Kahr ever produce a "service" pistol?

[clever alias]

I know that Kahr specializes in designing and producing pistols for the concealed carry market. I am curious if they will ever produce a pistol in a "service" type of size and configuration, (like a Glock 17, Browning High Power, CZ 75, ...ect.)

Anyone care to speculate?

[TheTman]

I'd say they've found their niche and fill it pretty well. I don't expect then to branch out into double stack magazine service pistols, that field is pretty well covered. JMHO

[mr surveyor]

I would expect to see the Kahr CW22 long before a double stack pistol.

[bonjorno2]

def not going to happen imo, i think glock will make a single stack 9/40 before kahr would do that.

[clever alias]

Ok here is another question in the same vein. My first semi auto pistol purchase was a CW 9 about a year ago. I have since put about 1000-1500 rounds down range and I am very happy with it. Now I find myself thinking about purchasing a full sized double stack pistol in 9 mm. Since I have become so familiar with the CW9 platform, I would like something with a similar trigger, ergonomic feel, etc., but with a double stack magazine and a 4-4.5 inch barrel.
Suggestions?

[nikon]

I think para makes a doa service size gun...otherwise your mostly going to find sao service size weapons

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[jocko]

Ok here is another question in the same vein. My first semi auto pistol purchase was a CW 9 about a year ago. I have since put about 1000-1500 rounds down range and I am very happy with it. Now I find myself thinking about purchasing a full sized double stack pistol in 9 mm. Since I have become so familiar with the CW9 platform, I would like something with a similar trigger, ergonomic feel, etc., but with a double stack magazine and a 4-4.5 inch barrel.
Suggestions?

two cw9's. One in each hand will giveu a dobule stack 16 shot.:behindsofa:

[chrish]

I wanted the same. Settled on a sig p250 full size. Dao trigger, 4.7" barrel, no safety, 15rd mag (compact grip) and i am very very pleased with my decision.

Its not a kahr trigger, longer and feels heavier even though they rated similar weight pulls. The p250 is a big gun, full size is ~30oz unloaded. But i think its about the closest thing on the market that you are going to find to a kahr in a double stack 'service' pistol.

My biggest draw was simply having the same manual of arms as the kahr and i certainly got that.

[MW surveyor]

Para LDA

[Longitude Zero]

That would have them moving outside their area of expertise. Bad idea. Stick with what you know and are good at.

[MO_Soldier]

Noob question here...
What does "manual of arms" refer to?

[Snidely Whiplash]

It would probably be a mistake for Kahr to do so - too much well-established competition by some good manufacturers of full and compact sized pistols. Many of them have both decades of experience in the production of larger pistols and much deeper pockets than Kahr.

I think Kahr should stick to what they know, pay attention to Kahr shooters' feedback, and keep improving each of their models year by year. Maintaining good customer service goes a long way toward keeping customers loyal to the brand.

[jocko]

Noob question here...
What does "manual of arms" refer to?

beats the fokkolut of me!!1 Just sayin.

It could be maybe a sear roebuck catalog with all kinds of arms pictures incase u loose ur arm in a farm accident, there fore "manual of arms". Just sayin.

[chrish]

Noob question here...
What does "manual of arms" refer to?

Operation of the firearm. In the context I used it, same operation between the Sig P250 and my Kahrs. Long DAO trigger, no safety, same (relative) mag release, etc. Similarly, if you wanted a 'training' weapon in the AR platform you might pick up a M&P 15-22 which has the same 'manual of arms' as a stanard AR in .223/5.56.

The term is probably inappropriately used alot, like what i just did, compared to what someone in the military might use it for. It seems to have become the lingo used across gun forums when you talk about two weapons that operate exactly the same but are different in their calibers, manufacturer, etc.

[jocko]

I'm sticking with my sears roebuck theory!! Just sayin

[TheTman]

I like my double stack 9mm S&W M&P Pro plenty well. The trigger in my opinion is much better than Kahrs, but it's a totally different beast, more like a 2 stage trigger where you take up the slack, then have a nice clean break of 4-5 lbs. Actually very close to a Single Action trigger on a DAO pistol. I shoot several types of semi-auto pistols, SA/DA Beretta .40 and Star 9mm, SA 1911's and a Buckmark 22, Revolvers. Each has a different trigger feel, yet I don't have any trouble transitioning from one to the other. I think the worst is going from a SA pistol to one of the Kahr, but it's not that bad that I miss the target or anything. I'm through buying pistols for awhile now, but I think if I were to get another, it might be a CZ-75 SA/DA, I believe it's also available, in a DAO configuration. I'll go look and see what they've got.
I saw mention of a CZ 75 DAO Service Pistol here: http://www.shootersshop.com/75dao.html I don't see any at Bud's so I wonder if they take a CZ-75B and make it DAO at that shop.

[chrish]

I'm sticking with my sears roebuck theory!! Just sayin

But that would be a 'catalog of arms, tools, and other stuff'. Totally different.

[jocko]

well back 50 years ago "manual
" was not even in the dictionary!!! Just sayin I sur emiss the ol sear roebuck catalogs. in the out house they were mans best friend. Toilet paper was for the rich..

[chrish]

I'm in my 40s, but I'm pretty sure my parents had toilet paper in the 60s :)

But yea, I remember going to my grandparents house and loving to look thru the sears catalog. But by the time I was looking at it in the late 70s as a kid, it still had guns in there, but also electronics, clothing, kitchen stuff, etc. Probably not the b&w newspaperish sears catalog of the old days, but still good memories.

Not my image, and a little early for me, but they were still there in the late 70s. http://41hijinx.typepad.com/photos/1975_sears_catalog/im000539.html

[forestranger]

I wanted the same. Settled on a sig p250 full size. Dao trigger, 4.7" barrel, no safety, 15rd mag (compact grip) and i am very very pleased with my decision.

Its not a kahr trigger, longer and feels heavier even though they rated similar weight pulls. The p250 is a big gun, full size is ~30oz unloaded. But i think its about the closest thing on the market that you are going to find to a kahr in a double stack 'service' pistol.

My biggest draw was simply having the same manual of arms as the kahr and i certainly got that.

Ditto^^^Have same gun for same reason plus P250 subcompact (12 rd mag).

[jocko]

I'm in my 40s, but I'm pretty sure my parents had toilet paper in the 60s :)

But yea, I remember going to my grandparents house and loving to look thru the sears catalog. But by the time I was looking at it in the late 70s as a kid, it still had guns in there, but also electronics, clothing, kitchen stuff, etc. Probably not the b&w newspaperish sears catalog of the old days, but still good memories.

Not my image, and a little early for me, but they were still there in the late 70s. http://41hijinx.typepad.com/photos/1975_sears_catalog/im000539.html

even seeingin the sear and roe buck catalogs where one cold buy a complete home from them. can't remember the prices but u could get the entire homedeliv ered to your site, courseu had to put it together but can u imagine that sh!t today.. good memories, my son looks at me when I got back 60 yars about stuff like "dad ur nuts"..

[clever alias]

As I said before, the CW9 is my first and only semi auto handgun. I first learned to shoot double action revolvers, and one of the selling points of the Kahr was how similar the trigger pull is to a buttery smooth DA revolver. It took me a long time to get comfortable with the idea of a semi auto because they have the reputation of not being as reliable. I have since gotten over that idea now that I have more experience with my Kahr. I think it would be cool if Kahr were to offer a double stack pistol to their line up for someone in my situation. Probably not going to happen. I will have to checkout the p250 and the M &P though. Thanks for the suggestions.

[chrish]

Yea, there have been double-stack Kahr threads on KahrTalk before. I would assume Kahr has seen them and considered it at least, but I kinda agree w/ everyone else in that Kahr most likely will and should stick to the niche they have built and excel at. Nobody did what they do when they started it and now everybody is copying them, which is flattering I suppose.

But while I think they should maintain the single stack CCW mentality w/in Kahr proper, I don't agree w/ it completely outside of that. I personally think they should offer a double-stack and also a .22 or a .22 conversion kit. Not only would they sell well, they would expand a company that is already expanding and focusing in other areas. And those other 'ventures' have not made them loose sight of Kahr proper, in fact, Kahr proper has continued to improve and add to the single stack product line just fine. But now they own Thompson, Magnum Research, and they just recently bought another company too if memory serves. I understand those are still pretty much stand-alone companies, but so what, start another division that builds off of what Kahr has learned and perfected in the single stack arena and put it to use building the smoothest (and near only) DAO trigger in the double-stack world.

Once alot of people try a Kahr and give some thought to safety and carry, things like mechanical safety devices and single/double triggers become things they at least give a second thought to. I know I did. Kahr did it right, all the way. Also coming from revolvers, I tried other stuff, thought that's the direction I would/should go, then discovered Kahr.

Just my 2 cents. I think given they have other irons in the fire, they could easily attempt/persue a double stack and a .22, both having the Kahr trigger.

[jocko]

I would never cross out the possability of a double stack kahr. IMO they are running out of "new" models to make and it certainly would be another choice for kahr lovers to.

Hell if ur gonna waste band carry it, what difference would it make. More than likely kany double stack kahr would still be smaller and lighter than anything else out there.

Never say never. I think u would see that before any 22 kahr. I just don't see a great market for that. Ruger and others have that market pretty well covered and it coldnot be a lock breech so we are talking about a totally new design for kahr, with no parts made today being used.

I don't know this but I bet kahr has tooled around with the double stack idea and who knows maybe a proto type is aleady their and they are just waiting to bring it forward..

[Popeye]

Ok here is another question in the same vein. My first semi auto pistol purchase was a CW 9 about a year ago. I have since put about 1000-1500 rounds down range and I am very happy with it. Now I find myself thinking about purchasing a full sized double stack pistol in 9 mm. Since I have become so familiar with the CW9 platform, I would like something with a similar trigger, ergonomic feel, etc., but with a double stack magazine and a 4-4.5 inch barrel.
Suggestions?

I'd say something along the XD line of pistols is about as close as your going to get. My PM9 looks and feels like a little brother to an XD9sc.

[JimC]

IMO, Kahr Arms could never compete in the LE market with a "service" type pistol against a company like Glock.

[Longitude Zero]

IMO, Kahr Arms could never compete in the LE market with a "service" type pistol against a company like Glock.

Agreed. As for jockos .22 cal request I think that is a bad idea also. Outside of there area of expertise and the market is already crowded with many excellent weapons. A Kahr 22 would be "just another 22."

[Popeye]

IMO, Kahr Arms could never compete in the LE market with a "service" type pistol against a company like Glock.


S&W is though as of late. I see quite a few PD's in my area that are droppping Glocks in favor of the S&W M&P 40. The Leo's I've talked to are pretty much liking the change to the M&P40. That's pretty good considering most people hate change.

With other gun manufactures Like S&W and Springfield that are creeping into Kahr's line of pistols, I think Kahr would be better suited making what they already make better. There already great pistols but the wolves are knocking at the door.

[JimC]

I'm glad to see S&W getting back into the LE market like they are.

When I began my LE career it was either an S&W or Colt revolver. My first duty gun was a 4" Colt Trooper .357 Mag. Later on it was a 6" S&W M19.

Fast forward ahead...when semi-autos got hold in LE, S&W was right up there and many departments had S&W semi-autos on their hips. My department issued the 9mm 669 and they served well until Glock came on the scene. ;)

Fast forward again...Glock enters the US market and soon into the US LE market and their low ball LE prices they nearly kill S&W.

Colt became a non-player for a very long time and they still don't have a handgun for the LE field that sells very well.

If Kahr were smart, they would stick to what they doing.

[cw45fan]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Kahr name go on the Magnum Research line.

Maybe a combined name along the lines of (simply) Kahr Magnum Research or KMR.

Seems inevitable.

http://www.magnumresearch.com/

[CJB]

I had some plans once. I was going to take the varied parts that I'd collected over the years - slides, barrels, grip safeties, triggers, etc etc... get the frames, and build up three 1911s. I did that. They all work great, shoot well (tight barrels) and I love 'em. Three sizes. Govy, Commie, and Occifers. (5, 4-1/4 and 3-3/4 for those in Rio Lindo).

Also had plans to get a nice double stack 45, heart set on an FN45 with the combination decoder/manual safety.

Then I discovered, or rather, RE-discovered, that those 1911s are heavy. I just dont enjoy carrying a weight around all day.

So, I got a PM45, the rest is history, now with two of those and a PM9 for those days when the 45's want a break. Always with me - except for time at my employer's. Even then, close by.

All thoughts of service pistol have long since vanished.... could care less about large, double stack pistols. Occasionally, I take out one of the Browning HP's, but thats only because I enjoy shooting those at the range. Carry? Truck? Home? Gimme my Karh, or 870's (and soon that KSG!)

[chrish]

I don't think those of us that are proponets of a double-stack Kahr are necessarily saying that would be the purpose of a Kahr 'service pistol' to compete w/ LEO and military sales. Kahr would be priced out by Glock and the others. But plenty of Joe-average gun guys (and gals) buy these same types of pistols. That's the market for a Kahr double-stack.

On the .22 topic, I also don't think it'd be just 'another .22' in the market. Particularly if Kahr produced something of higher quality than the other guys in the game right now. There is not a high quality, normal semi-auto, .22 out there. Much less a DAO .22 semi-auto, there are non that I'm aware of. Of the semi auto .22s that exist, they are all junk when you compare them to their bigger brothers in 9mm/40/45. Unless you go w/ a big, heavy .22 target pistol, there is just nothing out there. Rugers SR22 comes closer than anybody in the past, but again, still not 'high' quality. Do you need a high quality .22, no, but you don't need a gun either if you argue it from that point of view.

There seems to be interest in both products if Kahr would make them, so some people would buy them. I mean, the T/TP series are only out there by the few thousand guns, so they entered THAT market w/ no real interest or sales. Those guns fit a niche that is almost non-existent. That line, for the most part, are too big by most peoples definition to carry given the low capacity and that there is something a little thicker out there that offers more capacity. So from that perspective, Kahr shouldn't have entered that market either. Glad they did, I think my TP9 is my most favorite gun to shoot.

Just sayin'.

[jocko]

sure I would buy a kahr in any 22 version, won't be a carry peace, can't top my ruger MK111. Would not interest me in the slightest. Just sayin.

No interest in anay kahr double stack eiteher but I do think if done right it would sell to those who need more than 7 rounds for some reason or other. could kahr maybe start making the cw and cm series in the dlc finish and maybe other camo type finishs to entiice us to buy, maybe so. It is my carry tool, no more no less..

[chrish]

sure I would buy a kahr in any 22 version, won't be a carry peace, can't top my ruger MK111. Would not interest me in the slightest. Just sayin.

No interest in anay kahr double stack eiteher but I do think if done right it would sell to those who need more than 7 rounds for some reason or other. could kahr maybe start making the cw and cm series in the dlc finish and maybe other camo type finishs to entiice us to buy, maybe so. It is my carry tool, no more no less..

I also wouldn't carry the double stack. I'd only want one (and would buy one in a heartbeat) to use at the range. Reloading less and shooting more always makes for a better day at the range. I've got enough $ in Kahr mags to pay for at least 1 Kahr double stack pistol.

.22 would only be for fun and to get something of decent quality. Definitely not holding my breath for Kahr on this one. Would just be a nice to have.

[MW surveyor]

Really doubt that we will see a double stack service size gun. Could however see a compact double stack. JMHO

[chrish]

Really doubt that we will see a double stack service size gun. Could however see a compact double stack. JMHO

That would work for me. Not so much interested in a 'full size' gun as I am more ammo at the range. So double my P9 or TP9 to 13-15rds and I'd be happy as snot on a doorknob.

[jocko]

agree a compact doubke stack wouod go better than the big guns IMO. I guess we can all dream though, can't we4??? Just sayih

[JimC]

A compact double stack Kahr would have to compete with the likes of the Glock 19 and 23, two proven designs. ;)

Kahr ain't good enough to challenge that field.

[chrish]

A compact double stack Kahr would have to compete with the likes of the Glock 19 and 23, two proven designs. ;)

Kahr ain't good enough to challenge that field.

That's open for debate. I'd buy a double-stack Kahr 6 out of 7 days of the week over a Glock 19, any day over a 23. Just my preference. Don't care for the trigger design on any of the typical striker stuff. I recently wanted a high capacity, ended up w/ a sig P250 b/c nothing else suited me. But I'm weird.

[JimC]

That's open for debate. I'd buy a double-stack Kahr 6 out of 7 days of the week over a Glock 19, any day over a 23. Just my preference. Don't care for the trigger design on any of the typical striker stuff. I recently wanted a high capacity, ended up w/ a sig P250 b/c nothing else suited me. But I'm weird.

No debate at all here. There are thousands upon thousands of G19s and G23s being used very successfully by all levels of LE with great success.

The civilian population has quite a few in use also. ;)

As an LE firearms instructor/range officer, I have seen hundreds of new, right out of the box G19s and G23s used by new and experienced officers and they ran 100% except for the occasional ammo or shooter related malfunction.

Back in the mid '80's, I ran a transition course for a group of 36 LEOs using their NIB G19s. They fired 300 rds each over a 3 day period (10,800 rds). There were less than 6 malfunctions and they were all shooter induced. The majority of these shooter had never fired a Glock pistol prior.

Now, before you tel me about Glock Gen 4 problems, I will admit, I have no personal experience with any Gen 4 Glock.

Kahr Arms is better off staying with the market that they already have.

[johnh]

Just speculation, but I think if we see a Kahr double-stack, it will not be a "full size" double-stack pistol. If you take a P series and widen the grip somewhat, you could still have a very compact design and get a magazine capacity somewhere in the Glock 19/23 range. The end result would still be a very smooth, very thin, overall very compact handgun that many of the other "compact" double-stacked pistols would not match for overall concealability. It would also have a far better trigger than some of the other companies' "DAO" triggers. I suspect that this would be very popular for civilian CCW sales. A lot of individuals like having the extra magazine capacity. Witness the popularity of the baby Glocks, XDs, etc.. I think such a product would also have some LE sales potential as off duty, plain clothes, etc. carry guns. Personally I would buy one. When I am wearing heavier clothes in the winter it would be just as easy to hide as a single-stacked gun. We are only talking a slightly thicker grip and a little more weight when fully loaded.

[Barth]

Just speculation, but I think if we see a Kahr double-stack, it will not be a "full size" double-stack pistol. If you take a P series and widen the grip somewhat, you could still have a very compact design and get a magazine capacity somewhere in the Glock 19/23 range. The end result would still be a very smooth, very thin, overall very compact handgun that many of the other "compact" double-stacked pistols would not match for overall concealability. It would also have a far better trigger than some of the other companies' "DAO" triggers. I suspect that this would be very popular for civilian CCW sales. A lot of individuals like having the extra magazine capacity. Witness the popularity of the baby Glocks, XDs, etc.. I think such a product would also have some LE sales potential as off duty, plain clothes, etc. carry guns. Personally I would buy one. When I am wearing heavier clothes in the winter it would be just as easy to hide as a single-stacked gun. We are only talking a slightly thicker grip and a little more weight when fully loaded.

Please put me down for a K40 Elite DS (Double Stack) with NS.
I'm Ready.

Add an extended ported barrel to the mix as well please.

[chrish]

No debate at all here. There are thousands upon thousands of G19s and G23s being used very successfully by all levels of LE with great success.

Don't get me wrong, not debating the reliability or quality of a Glock. Debating that Kakr could not compete in that market.

If Glocks were that perfect (again, not knocking them), then nobody would buy anything else...all the other companies would go out of business. No firearm manufacturer has figured it all out and every one of them has a loyal following as well as their own merits outside of the loyalist crowds. As I'm sure you are aware, you'll find every brand, including Glock has PLENTY of issues.

If Kahr produced a double-stack exactly like their existing line P/CW/K, it would be far and away more concealable than a Glock (lighter and thinner), DAO for those that can't stand typical striker or SA/DA, more natural grip and pointable (Glock is horrible in that respect), etc.

[wyntrout]

Kahr CEO Moon wanted a slim, compact 9mm for concealed carry and invented the Kahr pistol. I don't think he wants to vary from the type of weapon that he developed or try to compete with established manufacturers of "duty weapons".

Kahr research and development would better be served in continued improvement of current models... and the introduction of a K45 and a MK45. There are many improvements and changes that could be made with the current production of Kahrs. Quality control has really become a problem. We shouldn't have to send almost every new Kahr back for "finishing"... sometimes at the new owner's expense! With the exception of my '97 vintage K9, all of my new Kahrs have been back to the factory... from 1 to 4 times! Plus, I've made improvements or done some of the fixes myself. My P40 wasn't new, but it had problems that I THINK I've fixed now. I just smoothed and polished the extractor claw which should stop the lingering, though not regular, FTF where the round is not fully chambered and just the slightest rearward movement of the slide allows the base of the case to click into position under the claw to then chamber fully as the slide goes forward. I have to test that, but initial RAPID racking of the pistol doesn't get FTFs now.

I went to the range with my XD45 and my wife's new P380 a few days ago. The P380 had a few FTFeeds... I thought... but on closer inspection with the next occurrences, I saw that the slide was locking back with ammo still in the magazine. I honed the actuator a bit and polished that, so I need to try the P380 and the P40 soon to see if they are 100% reliable now... as I suspect... or hope!

Some of this stuff should be done by Kahr during manufacture, though it would add to the cost. More 100% reliability out of the box should improve sales and cut complaints! This is an area they need to improve, not keep introducing new models or expanding lines while less than reliable pistols go out the door!

JMHO!

Wynn:)

PS: The XD45 is so boring! It ALWAYS fires when I pull the trigger. I must have over 900 rounds through it now, myself. If I do my part it's very accurate and 13-round magazines just don't seem to want to go empty! :D

[jocko]

remember it is a business and it is all about bottom line.. Never say never.

[Barth]

remember it is a business and it is all about bottom line.. Never say never.

Part of basic business is expanding your market.
I would expect as demand wanes for some models they may disappear.
And if there is a strong enough interest in a new model?
That might evolve from an idea into a new product.
Maybe a double stack product.

Still,
the flavor of the week seems to be single stack micros.
And that has been Kahr's bread and butter for years.

[dkmatthews]

As long as Kahr owns Auto Ordnance, which makes 1911 platform pistols, they really don't have much reason to make a Kahr-branded service pistol. Having Auto Ordnance as a separate DBA gives them that market entry.

Put me down for a double-stack TP45, though.

[Longitude Zero]

remember it is a business and it is all about bottom line..

Precisely. Unless and until Kahr sees suffecient profitiablilty then all the ponitificating and wishing is just so much air. Money talks, hot air walks. Undeniable business facts of life. Kahr knows more about the markeplace than everybody on this board combined and tripled. Thats why they are Kahr and we are not.

[josp]

In a way, they already do make a "service" pistol. I carry my P45 daily instead of the G37 I'm given. Now I wear a shirt and tie, not a uniform, but still, I'm on duty. ;)

[wyntrout]

The P45 is a really nice size... just right. I wouldn't mind having one in black, but I had to decide between that and the PM45 in DLC with NS. I went with the smallest, most concealable. I have the K9 which is too heavy for my CCW, but I have the ported P40 and still need to get some decent sights for it. I'm still hoping for some HD NS from Trijicon... eventually. I love them on my XD45.

Wynn:)

[cw45fan]

The MR9 Eagle:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/72959

DE 1911:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/72966

[JFootin]

The MR9 Eagle:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/72959[/URL]

Well, there ya go! The answer to the question: already done. A collaboration between MR and Walther. Should be a high quality gun. Interchangeable backstraps, adjustable sights. Nice gun.

Wierd place for an ambidextrous decocker button on top of the slide. But might not be a bad idea. No safety on the side means narrower width and smoother side for carry comfort. The button does not have to be accessed when bringing the gun into action. It is used to put the gun into a DA trigger mode for safer handling, like after you have had to fire the gun in self defense, the threat is over but you are still all amped up with adrenalin and might accidentally have an oops. I like that you have the choice of which mode to have it in at any time. Some people might like to carry it decocked. The new Taurus 24/7 G2 uses some trickery to make the gun always be in DA mode for the first shot and the shooter has no choice about it. Not as good a design. I think these new striker fired semi-auto gun designs with DA on the first shot are in answer to some police departments that want that extra safety feature for safe gun handling and to make the descision to fire that first round a more deliberate one.

Here is the MR web page:
[URL]http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-MR9-Eagle-15-Round.asp (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/72966)

This might be a good at home or truck gun. Probably a good range gun, too, with the adjustable sights. IMO, a good alternative to a full sized Glock. The price is pretty good, too.