Extreme Shock ammo

[Frankhenrylee]

Did a search and couldn't find much. Has anyone shot enough of the Exreme Shock ammo to say how reliably it feeds in the PM guns? I wanted to go .45 but its just to big for daily concealed carry compared to the PM9. Normally I'm not a fan of the 9 for knock down power and the .40 kicks more than what you get in return. So here I am looking at this ammo to make the difference. Anyone got some input>

[jocko]

way over rated ammo...

[Vinikahr]

way over rated ammo...

And expensive>>>

I bought a box for my CW45, I only shot one and it cycled.

[Longitude Zero]

way over rated ammo...

Completely agree.

[jocko]

Milly Cyrus any day of the week, and your right a BIG HOLE is always better than a small one.!!

[In-Yo-Grill]

Milly Cyrus any day of the week, and your right a BIG HOLE is always better than a small one.!!

Did you just call Milly a big ho...lol

[wyntrout]

Miley Ray Cyrus.

And that ammo gets its name from the effect it has on the victim -- the one that wants to buy it and sees the price!:eek:

[jocko]

Did you just call Milly a big ho...lol

I was just repeating what RYOUNG made in his statement about a big hole is better than a small hole. I can definitely tell though just where your mind is at now. this is one nasty forum:33:

[Dinger]

Allen Jones writes a column for Shooting Times called, Going Ballistic. He is an authority in forensics and also ballistics. In his April 2010 coulmn Crime Lab: Myths & Misconceptions, he says in a paragraph on Lethality that he quickly learned that "WHAT HITS YOU " gets trumped by "WHERE IT HITS YOU as the major factor in leathality.
It's a very interesting article from a guy who has spent most of his life in the field(s). I have the utmost respect for him & his writings.
I would recommend that you fellas buy a copy of the magazine and read the article.
Don't get me wrong I like the .45 even more than the next guy, but there's a whole lotta truth to what he says. I haven't owned a 9mm for 20-25 years, because I felt it wasn't a reliable manstopper. I recently bought a PM9, due to size and new bullet technology, like the Gold Dot ammo. So now I have more choices in what I can carry & where I want to carry it and still feel that I have enough gun to protect my wife & myself.

[jeep45238]

It's a complete waste of ammo and money. Enjoy from : The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock™ Ammo and the Box O' Truth - Page 1 (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm)


If you want to find out more about handgun wounding characteristics, read the FBI's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness paper. It's from 1989 and is freely available, but the information is still valid.

For some good info on ammo itself, look for 2 .pdf called :

PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

Pierce County Workshop.pdf

Yes, it's sponsored by Federal, but still good info.



Pistol Cartridges (9x19mm Luger) (http://frag.110mb.com/) That though, has got to be the best in depth backyard testing of 9mm ammo that I've found so far.






Keep in mind there's a wonderful resource here that's all about AMMUNITION:

http://kahrtalk.com/ammunition/

[Vinikahr]

Thanks for sharing!
Only wish I had that info before
I bought. Thank God I am cheap
only bought one box.:eek:

[In-Yo-Grill]

Well this thread saved me some dough. I was going to buy some for my .380, 9mm and .45acp.

I think I'll stick with the Speer Gold Dot.

[jocko]

when they make a 45 as small as my PM9 and as reliable, I might consider one, but right now my PM9 trumps any 45 for me due to ease of carry.

I won't disagree with his theory either but it certainly is not a criteria for what I decide to carry and when. Probalby a 50 cal trumps a 45 also. so it will never end if that is the one criteria. The 9mm for me has plenty of knock down power, and todays ultra modern 9mm ammo is problaby offered in more variations than any other round. It has come a very long way indeed. Ammo price is for me a very big consideration, 45 ammo is usualy a 3rd higher or more, brand for brand. Ia msure kahr sells quite a few 45's also. the PM45 seems to be a big hit with the concealment people...

I think everyone will agree that bullet placement is #1...

[In-Yo-Grill]

when they make a 45 as small as my PM9 and as reliable, I might consider one, but right now my PM9 trumps any 45 for me due to ease of carry.

I won't disagree with his theory either but it certainly is not a criteria for what I decide to carry and when. Probalby a 50 cal trumps a 45 also. so it will never end if that is the one criteria. The 9mm for me has plenty of knock down power, and todays ultra modern 9mm ammo is problaby offered in more variations than any other round. It has come a very long way indeed. Ammo price is for me a very big consideration, 45 ammo is usualy a 3rd higher or more, brand for brand. Ia msure kahr sells quite a few 45's also. the PM45 seems to be a big hit with the concealment people...

I think everyone will agree that bullet placement is #1...

That's why I spend so much time at the range. I found out today of a class that helps the everyday slub like myself to get more proficient with their firearm. You can never have too much training.

[Dinger]

Jocko- I agree about bullet placement being #1. And I can appreciate what you feel about ease of carry. That's why I bought a PM9. But only because I've been convinced that the 9mm ammo has been advanced to a point that it is indeed a reliable manstopper. IF the bullet is properly placed. But that goes for the majority of so-called defensive rounds/calibers. It boils down to what you're carrying is what you're betting your life on.......... Interestingly enough, Allan Jones said that he did a survey in 1972 of about a decade's worth of recovered autopsy bullets. He found that 22 caliber & 38 cal. revolver bullets were almost equally represented and made up about 80% of the sample. So again it where you're hit. I'm telling you this article was an eye-opener for me.

[In-Yo-Grill]

I started practicing more rapid fire with two to the chest and one to the head and was surprised at how much I really need to practice.

[wyntrout]

Dang! I just thought of another method to try -- my PM9 in my strong hand and the K9 in the other and fire both at once like they do in the movies! Woohoo! Use ammo twice as fast! At 7 yards... I don't think I would hit anything at 15 yards doing that.:D
Wynn
:33::59:

[Frankhenrylee]

I go hunting regularly and have noticed a difference in knock down power that might be interesting to some. Pretend that the frangible ammo is more like a shotgun. You get hit in more places at one time. This usually is an instant kill. However, when you shoot something with a single projectile there's usually waiting period for the bullet and hole to take effect. Now most things I shoot with a shotgun are alot smaller that what I shoot with a rifle. But, the deer I shot this year, It blew a hole straight through and left a 3" hole coming out. This deer ran for 70yds. The question I pose is: Does multiple hits cause enough trauma to shut down the nervous system right away as apposed to a single hole that usually needs to blled out before it takes effect? I know a well placed shot will do the job anyway, but how many are well placed in that unfortunate time of need? Any opinions?

[Vinikahr]

I go hunting regularly and have noticed a difference in knock down power that might be interesting to some. Pretend that the frangible ammo is more like a shotgun. You get hit in more places at one time. This usually is an instant kill. However, when you shoot something with a single projectile there's usually waiting period for the bullet and hole to take effect. Now most things I shoot with a shotgun are alot smaller that what I shoot with a rifle. But, the deer I shot this year, It blew a hole straight through and left a 3" hole coming out. This deer ran for 70yds. The question I pose is: Does multiple hits cause enough trauma to shut down the nervous system right away as apposed to a single hole that usually needs to blled out before it takes effect? I know a well placed shot will do the job anyway, but how many are well placed in that unfortunate time of need? Any opinions?

Always double tap your target, in defense situation that is.

[jeep45238]

It is not the equivalant of being hit multiple times. You put the same amount of power in one area, however once the jacket fragments, it allows shot to come out.

The shot has energy, just like the the jacket. However, unlike a solid, one piece unit with a given amount of surface area, the shot has a huge amount of surface area by weight - this results in much faster deceleration and thus energy transfer. This ALSO means that the projectile will NOT penetrate as much. High energy transfer RATE, low penetration, or higher penetration and reduced energy transfer rate (but if you match the ammo to the game, still 100% energy transfer).

Therefore you must take a balance between penetration and energy.

Multiple hits, or hits from a large caliber (even if it does NOT go through the target, thus 100% energy transfer) will NOT SHUT DOWN THE CNS WITHOUT A DIRECT HIT. This is true of any caliber. The ONLY way larger calibers and more hits work to take down the target is to decrease the amount of time it takes for the target to bleed out. Larger holes cause more bleeding, and deeper holes cause a LOT more bleeding. A larger quantity of deep, large holes speeds it up even more.

Terminating the signals from the brain is the only way to do an instant take down. For this, you need a brain hit, or spinal column hit above the vital organs.

Yes, a shot to the heart and lungs will generally result in a drop - sometimes they still run like hell until the oxygen supply drops below levels where the brain can function.




If you can't tell, I'll take my JHP's any day of the week ;)

[In-Yo-Grill]

It is not the equivalant of being hit multiple times. You put the same amount of power in one area, however once the jacket fragments, it allows shot to come out.

The shot has energy, just like the the jacket. However, unlike a solid, one piece unit with a given amount of surface area, the shot has a huge amount of surface area by weight - this results in much faster deceleration and thus energy transfer. This ALSO means that the projectile will NOT penetrate as much. High energy transfer RATE, low penetration, or higher penetration and reduced energy transfer rate (but if you match the ammo to the game, still 100% energy transfer).

Therefore you must take a balance between penetration and energy.

Multiple hits, or hits from a large caliber (even if it does NOT go through the target, thus 100% energy transfer) will NOT SHUT DOWN THE CNS WITHOUT A DIRECT HIT. This is true of any caliber. The ONLY way larger calibers and more hits work to take down the target is to decrease the amount of time it takes for the target to bleed out. Larger holes cause more bleeding, and deeper holes cause a LOT more bleeding. A larger quantity of deep, large holes speeds it up even more.

Terminating the signals from the brain is the only way to do an instant take down. For this, you need a brain hit, or spinal column hit above the vital organs.

Yes, a shot to the heart and lungs will generally result in a drop - sometimes they still run like hell until the oxygen supply drops below levels where the brain can function.




If you can't tell, I'll take my JHP's any day of the week ;)

You said it...I shot a deer a couple of years ago and it ran about 40yrds. Upon gutting the animal I discovered that the heart was reduced to gelatin and exploded upon bullet impact. I couldn't believe the deer ran at all.

I also bow hunt and a I double lung shot a buck and it died within 20seconds.

[jeep45238]

You said it...I shot a deer a couple of years ago and it ran about 40yrds. Upon gutting the animal I discovered that the heart was reduced to gelatin and exploded upon bullet impact. I couldn't believe the deer ran at all.

I also bow hunt and a I double lung shot a buck and it died within 20seconds.


Hell, the human brain has 8 seconds minimum of oxygen left in the blood if it stopped flowing instantaneously. This means that if you shoot an assailant in the heart, and the blood stops flowing, if they are determined they can still range a full out 8 second war on you and still kill you - if you are not determined to live.


I like breathing, a LOT. Life is expensive, ammo is cheap, and I refuse to be my firearm's *****. I'm emptying the mag.

[Dinger]

You're asking a hard question to try to answer. TOO MANY VARIABLES for anything to be set in stone. Sure multiple hits to the chest area should cause shutdown, but if for example a guy is loaded up on crack or whatever, it might not seem to phase him. He can be dead for all intents & purposes and not know it. Then another guy might take a hit to the chest and drop like a ton of bricks. One thing is for certain: Kill The Head and the Whole Thing's Dead!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, many shots are not that well placed, that's why in part it may take more than one to get the job done. The caliber & type of ammo plays a role in it as well. I'm sure there are many other aspects to consider as well.

[In-Yo-Grill]

Hell, the human brain has 8 seconds minimum of oxygen left in the blood if it stopped flowing instantaneously. This means that if you shoot an assailant in the heart, and the blood stops flowing, if they are determined they can still range a full out 8 second war on you and still kill you - if you are not determined to live.


I like breathing, a LOT. Life is expensive, ammo is cheap, and I refuse to be my firearm's *****. I'm emptying the mag.

Darn skippy...

[G26ster]

Got this article via email today. Good read, and appropriate for the topic:

http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx (http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.aspx?u=BFDA95B4-711B-4D21-B8A2-F07FAF4FB774&l=http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx?c=0301)

[Frankhenrylee]

Just read the "box of truth" article. Whoa, never seen 9mm slugs before. Enjoyed the back yard test too. Looks like the tried and true are just that. Due to size restrictions I'm still going with the 9mm. I just don't think I can carry the PM45 comfortably all day and not worry about it being concealed. Although I want it really bad. Too many guns I like, not enough money. Can somebody give me some?

[jeep45238]

Can't give you any money, but I can tell you that the better your belt/holster combination is, the heavier and bigger guns you can comfortably and easily get away with concealing.

[Frankhenrylee]

Got this article via email today. Good read, and appropriate for the topic:

http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx (http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.aspx?u=BFDA95B4-711B-4D21-B8A2-F07FAF4FB774&l=http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx?c=0301)
Great article, I think its what we all believed but didn't want to hear. Very scary stuff. When do you think they'll make a concealable flamethrower?

[getsome]

How about a RPG...only one round but it doesnt matter much where you hit um cause it's gonna leave a mark!!!!

[wyntrout]

Man, that guy could control that pistol -- what was it about 6 shots COM with all but one on the spine... in less than a second, I think. Kind of like Jerry Miculek. I don't think anyone can top Jerry, though. He can unload a 6-shot revolver twice in 2.99 seconds, including the reload... and hit his target. He does the SAME thing BLIND-FOLDED in under 6 seconds, including hitting the target! F'n amazing!:third:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giSaNiQ-Wb4

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2009/1/12-Shots-Blindfolded-In-Under-6-Seconds-655254.html
Wynn:D

[getsome]

+1 on Jerry Miculek....It sounds impossible but I have seen him do it on a couple of shooting videos....Who needs a semi auto if you can get 12 .45acp rounds down range in 1.99 seconds!!!!:eek:

[wyntrout]

Yeah, that's getting into Uzi range with better control!:eek:
I just want to hit a silhouette target with all 7 rounds from my PM9 in under 3 seconds... at 7 yards!
Wynn:D

[wyntrout]

I tried to "quote" but on the two shots -- At least!! Ammo is cheap and unless he has buddies, you can empty your magazine! He's not down and out until literally he is and there's no weapon in his hand. In the time it takes for you to stop, look and see if you got him, he could finish what he was trying to do, even if fatally wounded.:eek:
Wynn:D