Old Dude vs Two Armed Thugs

[doc540]

No, it's not me because he used a .380. ;)

http://www.ocala.com/article/20120716/ARTICLES/120719790/1001/NEWS01?Title=Video-shows-patron-shooting-robbers-at-Palms-Internet-Cafe&tc=ar

Serious, sad, but kinda funny.

The dude that hit the floor twice looked like he was trying to swim to get away:D

[sullypc2002]

The dude that hit the floor twice looked like he was trying to swim to get away:D[/QUOTE]

The swim move made me laugh, :rolleyes:

[doc540]

Poor thing had been shot in the butt and hip with a .380.

[joshh]

Good for him. If he pulled that here in ma he'd be the one in jail and there'd be a line of lawyers for the 2bad guys to sue everyone... I can't wait to move to fl.

[doc540]

Future prison conversation:

"So, where'd you get tapped, bro?"

"Oh, really?

"I think you better show me that little scar."

:D

[kb2wji]

These types of video's should be required viewing in middle school. Put a touch of fear into the ones that will be future thugs. Pa-Paw 1, thugs 0

[dkmatthews]

Good for the ol' man.

[LorenzoB]

The old dude looked pretty calm, like they weren't a threat to him at all. I like that the one thug totally ran over his partner. He "pushed him under the buss" so to speak. That's what friends are for!

[OldLincoln]

Good for the old man, but that's why I sold my .380 for a 9mm. If the BG wasn't bluffing he would have turned and emptied his gun on the old guy and you saw him run off with 4 or 5 rounds in him. He may have fallen down but just as likely from fright as wound.

Picture that close range shooting with serious SD pistol (which the 380 is not).

[Popeye]

I think we're missing the point here. No the .380 did not kill anybody, but it did do exactly what it is supposed to do. It stopped the threat and no innocents were harmed. Would immagine in Fla. there are to many 71 year old men carrying large caliber pistols in there shorts pockets. Old guy didn't seems to threatened by the punks or the fact that he only had a .380. Now that the cameras caught it all two punks go to jail. Plus the old dude got a little live target practice in. sound like a win ,win.

[Charlie]

One for the good guys.

[jdavis]

In spite the paper statistics, the little .380 will put a hurtin' on your ***.
I'll bet we haven't heard the last of this yet. Word is that the kid with the wounds in the *** might have lawyered up. The fact that he was fleeing when fired upon might be enough for a charge or civil suit against the old guy.
Only in America:rolleyes:

[muggsy]

In spite the paper statistics, the little .380 will put a hurtin' on your ***.
I'll bet we haven't heard the last of this yet. Word is that the kid with the wounds in the *** might have lawyered up. The fact that he was fleeing when fired upon might be enough for a charge or civil suit against the old guy.
Only in America:rolleyes:

If you worry about a civil suit when someone threatens you with a gun we'll read about you in the obits. The old man doesn't have a problem if I'm the judge or on his jury.

[steve666]

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.

[jocko]

looked to me like that ol man had some prior range time, he wasn't flailing thegun all around and seemed pretty calm about whathe was doing. U can't say he wasnot agressive towards those two aholes. Good for him. O way they will file charges against him Stand ur grould certainly comes into play this time and the footage sure shows it to. By the way did u notice they were wearing hoodies to. Did it ever say if they caught the two robbers even or what.. Definitely the one on the ground needs o be told that you don't practice swiming techniques on a cement floor. Just sayin.:behindsofa:

[HDoc]

It's good that the local DA is not pressing charges. I'd think that some locals would view the situation as there was no threat to the shooter AND he pursued the thugs even after they were fleeing. I'm not sure what I would have done.

[Ikeo74]

I noticed in the film that the old man had excellent trigger finger control....

By the way, I use the words "old Man" like the rest of you guys and I am older than the old man. Some of us don't like robbers!

[JFootin]

As I understand the stand your ground law, the old man is protrcted from criminal and civil prosecution.

[Tinman507]

Yeah, but so was George Zimmerman. See how that's going for him.

[Popeye]

What's kind of scary about things like this is suppose the BG did start shootin back and a innocent was hurt or perhaps killed in the exchange. I'm sure they'd be looking a the good guy in a whole different light. It looks to me like the Good guy fired the intial shot. Scary very scary.

[dkmatthews]

This is just my opinion, but even though the two hoodlums were fleeing the "threat" had not been stopped. NC and SC training is that use of deadly force is justified to the point of stopping the threat. If the defender had stopped pursuing the criminals (injury? heart attack?), it would have been no surprise if the criminals had turned around and continued their armed robbery.

[Chuck54]

I wonder what the "Old Guy" retired from ?

[Haven]

I noticed in the film that the old man had excellent trigger finger control....

!

Yes....I noticed that too.

[Popeye]

Got to give the old man credit he knew what he was doing with that gun and in the meantime made himself a small a target as possible by practically getting down on one knee.

[wyntrout]

No center of mass hits... could have aimed better. His grip was one-handed with the weak hand holding his forearm just aft of his wrist???

He did scare the crap out of them, though.:D

Wynn:)

[JimC]

FL State Attorney's Office says charges not likely in the shooting of two robbers.

Cafe Shooting (http://www.ocala.com/article/20120716/ARTICLES/120719790/0/news)

[Double3]

Yeah, but so was George Zimmerman. See how that's going for him.
Yep

He was not going to be charged with anything at first as well.

[jocko]

a hell of a difference here, they have video. these guys were armed. no way the same scenario as zimmermans. This was an armed robbery, u either deal with it like this older guy did or give them allur valuables anc ross ur fingers tha tthey don't shoot someone in the process. No way, they will do anything to this guy. My q7uestion is . did they catch the two hoodies, who were black .

[JimC]

Yep

He was not going to be charged with anything at first as well.

This case is entirely different from the Zimmerman shooting.

They have the video and witneses that have already spoken favorably in defense of Mr. Williams.

From the Ocala paper today.

Williams, who lives in Ocala, could not be reached for comment on Monday. But at least one of his 30 fellow patrons at the cafe wants to thank him.
“I think he is wonderful. If he wouldn’t have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,” said Mary Beach.

[Popeye]

Agree Jocko this was an armed robbery case. Has nothing in common with the Zimmerman case. Except FLA.

[Tinman507]

Agreed, it's completely different. So far there's no pressure from the US Dept of Justice to pursue this further. There've been no riots or displays of the weeping parents telling the world what good young lads they were.

[jocko]

Agree Jocko this was an armed robbery case. Has nothing in common with the Zimmerman case. Except FLA.

a survey taken in florida and 60+ percent of the blacks believe in STAND UR GROUND.

In this case the film speaks for itself, no prosecutor would touch this case. If there ever was an armed robbery, this was it. Love the hoodies though. bet that shows up in the zimmerman trial. Just sayin. They wil lnever get 12 to agree that zimmerman murdered that kid for a 2nd degree murcder charge tostick. They bit offto much with those charges and it was all racial motivated from the white house on downand now they are stuck with a case that they can only release information from people like this b!tch thatsays she wasmolested for over 8 years (hell if that was even truen, then she must hav eliked it). and that sh1 ti willnever get in court although they are trying ti win this case by public opinion for IMO they have no case.

Geez christ they let casey anthony walk, no way zimmerman will be convicted.

Course I sound so sure to but as u know I am wrong alot to. No one has answeredmy question though. did they catch thetwo BG, did one die etc???

Course maybe those two guys didn't mean to hold up that internet cafe,maybe they just wantged to know where the mens restroom was.. Just sayin

[JimC]

Geez christ they let casey anthony walk, no way zimmerman will be convicted.


Course I sound so sure to but as u know I am wrong alot to. No one has answeredmy question though. did they catch thetwo BG, did one die etc???




Casey Anthony walked because the State failed to prove it's case miserably!!! :mad:


Here's the original article, they caught both subjects shortly after the incident. They probably made bail by now.

Internet Cafe Robbery (http://www.ocala.com/article/20120713/ARTICLES/120719846/0/news)


Henderson remained in the Marion County Jail late Monday in lieu of a $31,000 bond. Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

[Armybrat]

In the video that looked like a two-tone .380, which rules out a Ruger.

Was it a Kel-Tec, Taurus, or a Kahr?

[chipD]

It didn't jam I'll vote Kahr.

[heeler]

I have a sneaky suspicion it will turn out to be a Kel-Tec P3AT.
Florida native and all that.
And by the way poster #34 you can get a Ruger in hard chrome or whatever the flashy slide is called.
If anyone finds out let us know.

[Cokeman]

I'm voting Kahr. Hard to tell.

[Popeye]

Is to hard to tell anything even at full screen. What ever it is it's a fairly small pistol. KelTec's are made in Fla. and I'd imagine there pretty cheap and more than a few older folks carry them down there so I sure won't bet it's not a Kel Tec p3at.

[340pd]

No center of mass hits... could have aimed better. His grip was one-handed with the weak hand holding his forearm just aft of his wrist???

He did scare the crap out of them, though.:D

Wynn:)

He obviously was well trained.
He acted quickly.
He acted decisively.
He made himself as small a target as possible.
He advanced through a potential hail of return fire until the threat was totally removed from the scene.
His finger was off the trigger when the firing ceased.
He appeared to remain calm throughout the entire incident.
There are no apparent stains on the front or back of his shorts

Under the circumstances I think this guy did better than 99% of us out there that think we are prepared. Study shooting statistics and you will he did better than most LE shooting encounters.

Everyone was lucky this had a great outcome.
Always remember

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTO-y-B2YM

This guy is my hero.
Amen.

[JFootin]

I wonder if he is a retired LEO or Navy Seal or something? Poise like that doesn't just happen.

[jocko]

Oh yhes that pose happens alot with ol;der people. It is called a grafitating fart position. Juss sayin

[JFootin]

Oh yhes that pose happens alot with ol;der people. It is called a grafitating fart position. Juss sayin

http://zoomdoggle.com/wp-content/uploads/db2072-i-love-to-fart.jpg

[OldLincoln]

I wonder if he is a retired LEO or Navy Seal or something? Poise like that doesn't just happen.
Excellent point John! It was like he made himself a small target which was good as the BG turned to point his gun at him, but also change the shot angle to clear the background. Then he just charged ahead (Semper Fi?) and took it to the BG.

But I still say he was fortunate the BG didn't stand his ground. I doubt the BG ever intended to shoot if necessary and once the GG did he was all for getting away.

[jocko]

the BG later . on told the police the gun didn't even work. What a dumb fokk.

I try not to think what the BG would have done or wou\ldnot have done. that is an after the fact thing. When he came into that business flinging his gun around while his a-hole buddyw as busting up equipment in the cafe. IMO they were both bought and paid for. I could care less about his family upbringing. He was not in there to ask for information to the nearest church.The ol man certainly STOOD HIS GROUND.

I wannaknow where is ass-hole Revern Al is at..

[titus1971]

I've looked at several of these videos online in situations where CC holder’s fire on thugs and there’s one thing that always catches my attention. Whether it's a .380, 9mm, or even a .40 the BG almost never goes down with one shot. You' d be surprised at how many people (even CC holders) just expect the "Hollywood effect" and people to go flying backward through the window glass with one hit from a .22. I mean, sure he didn’t hit center mass but that's really hard when you are shooting at a 3 dimensional moving target. But I have seen video where a solid CM hot is scored and the BG sometimes doesn’t even realize they’ve been shot. It's good to expect that if you pull your weapon you may have to fire multiple shots to neutralize the threat. Just my 2 cents

[doc540]

Note the different effect of a .40 S&W
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ebb_1234268434

And you are, indeed, correct.

Drugs and adrenaline can offset the effects of many injuries.

Read Col. Dave Grossman for a definitive look at human behavior in extreme circumstances and when wounded.

http://www.killology.com/books.htm

[LorenzoB]

They showed this video on my local news this morning.

[jocko]

It has been on alot of tv and so farno negatives from anyone either. This ol fella done good but it could have been a bad event fo rhim had he shot anyone buyt asI watced the videos that I seen todayt slower, it also looked tome likethe ol man kinda set them up to. as to when they turned their back to him is when he made his move and he came towards the one gun BG,so tome it was pretty well thought out on his part and he didn't seem to be wildly fir8ing either he hit on 3 of his shots, so u know the adrenalin was pumping big time and he done excellent. I guess from the hoodies standpoint of there was a lesson to be learned here it is to never go into a gun fight fully knowing ur gun does't work. Two dumb fokks if there ever was ..

[titus1971]

Note the different effect of a .40 S&W

Where did it indicate the security guard had a .40 S&W (I'm not disagreeing with you I just didnt see it).

[DKD]

I have read and re-read the Florida law when it comes to justifiable shooting .As was previously stated this was a clean shoot. The law is very clear...the old man can engage any forceable felony act to either himself or others if he is present at a place where he was lawfully allowed to be, and not in the commission of a felony. Armed robery in Florida is a forceable felony. He is also protected from any Civil lawsuits if not personally charged.

The only problem I see is that he needed more gun. Todd Schnitt of WFLA Talk Radio offered to pay 50% to buy him a new gun and a local gun shop offered to anti up the other 50% on Monday evennings show.
Welcome to the "Gun Shine State" all you would be jack asses.

[DKD]

The truth be known, niether this case nor the Zimmerman case really have anything to do with stand your ground. The lefties are just trying to get the entire law gutted based upon emotion. In Zimmermans case the state staute is very clear....self defense & fear for ones life period! This case was to stop a foreceable felony.."Armed Robery" case closed! Class dismissed.

[doc540]

Where did it indicate the security guard had a .40 S&W (I'm not disagreeing with you I just didnt see it).

Read about the details in a followup news story.

Don't still have the link.

[wyntrout]

He didn't get to be an old dude without learning something along the way. That's what we oldsters have over impatient young kids. WE"RE SNEAKY BASTARDS, too, and we know not to fight "fair"... as if there's such a thing in a fight for your life! Second place sucks!

Wynn:)

[doc540]

He didn't get to be an old dude without learning something along the way. That's what we oldsters have over impatient young kids. WE"RE SNEAKY BASTARDS, too, and we know not to fight "fair"... as if there's such a thing in a fight for your life! Second place sucks!

Wynn:)

Never forget, old age and treachery will overcome youth and enthusiasm every time.

[7shot]

I have read and re-read the Florida law when it comes to justifiable shooting .As was previously stated this was a clean shoot. The law is very clear...the old man can engage any forceable felony act to either himself or others if he is present at a place where he was lawfully allowed to be, and not in the commission of a felony. Armed robery in Florida is a forceable felony. He is also protected from any Civil lawsuits if not personally charged.

The only problem I see is that he needed more gun. Todd Schnitt of WFLA Talk Radio offered to pay 50% to buy him a new gun and a local gun shop offered to anti up the other 50% on Monday evennings show.
Welcome to the "Gun Shine State" all you would be jack asses.

This is awesome about the civil lawsuit! I was figuring the (he's such a good boy) parents would try and sue this guy. Being older he might not be able to handle any larger caliburs but it sure is a generous offer.

[muggsy]

What's kind of scary about things like this is suppose the BG did start shootin back and a innocent was hurt or perhaps killed in the exchange. I'm sure they'd be looking a the good guy in a whole different light. It looks to me like the Good guy fired the intial shot. Scary very scary.

Life is scary, Popeye. Should the old man have wait until the perp shot someone? He did exactly what I would have done without hesitation. He was prepared. If you're not prepared to shoot don't carry a gun.

[doc540]

When confronted with an armed attacker, one is faced with the question, "Who decides if I live or die? Do I let the attacker make that decision, or do I make that decision?".

I respect the opinion and choices that others may make.

But if the situation allows, I choose not to let a criminal make that decision for me.

[bonjorno2]

I love Florida... wish he was carrying a pm45 instead!

[Popeye]

Life is scary, Popeye. Should the old man have wait until the perp shot someone? He did exactly what I would have done without hesitation. He was prepared. If you're not prepared to shoot don't carry a gun.

Not saying that at all. Just that sometimes your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I read about a similiar robbery where the good guy shot first winging the bad guy, the bad guy returned fire and a small shootout transpired bad guy never was sreiously hit, and a innocent was kill by the one of the good guys stray bullets. Turned out in court that the good guy was found to have started the gun play which killed another person, not the bad guy. The bad guy was caught and got what pretty much amounts to a slap on the whrist. Things did not go to well for the good guy as you can imagine.

Now for what I would have done. First of all my permit says SD it does not say I'm responsible to stop a store from being robbed. I'm not the Popo nor do I pretend to be one nor do I get paid to be one. That's there job to be the crime fighter not mine. Now if someone is being mugged, raped, or a similiar act of violence is being done to them that's different. Like I said it's scary and like it has been said many times there is a lawyer behind every bullet. You better make sure your arse is covered and pulling your gun and using it is a last resort, and there isn't any use pulling it if your not going to use it. Hey I give the old guy credit for what he did and it turned out alright for him. This time. It just a good thing when he shot out that door there was not someone comming down the side walk and caught a stray bullet that could have bounce off the sidewalk ,car light pole or any number of things.

The second ammendment gives every law abiding citizen the right to bear arms. It's there choice to protect or not protect themselves as they see fit. Knowhere does it say just because I choose to carry a gun for my own self defense that I'm responsible for there safety or put my life in jeaporty for some bull sh8 crime that involves nothing more than money. Should I get killed or do jail time because someone gets killed or injurded by a stray bullet from my gun, who takes care of my family while I'm dead or in jail? The store owner? Yea. Like that will ever happen. 48 hours after the fact they'll have forgotten my name, and it will be business as usual. Like I said my permit says self defense and drawing my gun will always be the last resort.

Muggsy it's a dog eat dog world and I'll be damned if some lawyer is coming after me like I'm wearing milk bone underwear over some store robbery gone bad because I fired the first shot and someone who shouldn't have gotten hurt did get hurt. There's a large gray area there and everycase is different. I carry a gun for the protection of my family and I'll use it without question if it comes down to that. Others may choose not to or hate guns and gun owners that's there business they can call 911. We'll see how that turns out.

[jocko]

have to agree with popeye on this. because I carry does not mean I am resonsile for other people. If I was in a business armed and a holdup occured.I would do nuttin,no hero here at all, just not what my mind and ccw tells me I HAVE TO DO. If shooting starts, then and only then will I get involved, does that mean I am gonna come out firing???No it does not but it means I a now invloved and I will now protect myself and my family if they are with me with my life.not trying to piss anyone off here but I read to much of this rambo stuff on this and other fourms. U HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT U WILL DO IN A ARMED MATTER.I guess in defense of popeye he is being reaistic to. He never said he would not get involved but it will be his choice and not because has has a gun on his side that tells him now it is OK to blasst away.

I said from the git go that ol man in that internet cafe was very ver lucky that he didn't hit anyone with his rounds. I have no doubt he would have faced some type of civil lawasuit. Did he do the right thing, well in this case he certainly did, but if it was me I would have set there and let them robb the store and probalby myself even before I would have drawed my gun ad opened fire.U may think ur an excellent shot but you have never been in this situation either. Very easy to stand in front of a paper target asnd drill um in the same hole. The internet cafe was crowded as the video showed, so so easy for a stray bullet or bullets to do harm and had the a$$hole BG had a gun that worked even, he would have shot back for sure and then what, rounds going north and south in that small space. That ol man did good,he was damn lucky , run that same scenario by 10 different people and every case would have been totally different,innocents would have been shot by the good guy...One on One robbery is something one can deal with in a totally different way. home burgulary is the same thing but in a crowded business, one IMO should really analyze the situation 100% before he pulls his gun out, for once that gun comes out is is now kill or be killed for the BG and GG.

I have stated before I was armed robbed by two guys back some35+ years ago. in my small business about closing time.. One had a shotgun one a wheel gun, I owned a sporting goods business in side of our big tire store, Guns was sold here. I never carried in my business, my gun was in a drawer under the cash regster. They wanted money, nothing else. I gave them the money and they were gone. I can still remember one of the detectives telling me when they came to the crime scene that had I had a visible gun on my side, they probably would have shot me without notice and still took the money but they seen no threat visible and I didn't do anything threatening either. they were never caught to m knowledge either but I still had supper later on that night WITH MY FAMILY. There was no hero sh!it on my part. Two guns in ur face trump a gun in the drawer any day. There were military people shot and killed in this theater shooting, why didn't they try to apprehend this killer??? They are trained. To me its called survival. They were in no posittion to do any more than the rest of the innocent people.

Popeye is right IMO. Gurantee u , his family wants his ass home in the evening PROTECTING THEM..

[Planedude]

Okay guys, just as an example of how crazy the "don't get involved" ideal gets...

What if, you go for milk and bread at the nearby Stop & Rob. Suddenly you find yourself watching a robbery from the back of the store by the coolers. The BG has tunnel vision on the clerk and register and he fails to see you. The clerk coperates and gives up the cash drawer. Good for her, shes doing it right. So you are sitting in the back, shevles for concelment, gun drawn and the BG suddenly decides to pop two into the clerk then move out.
When it comes out later that you are in the back, gun out, with a dead drop on the BG and you just let it happen... Then what?
Carry is a slippery slope, the right response is very situationally specific. The whole world is next free to "monday morning quaterback" your every move, or lack of and tell you and the world that you did everything wrong. If this is too scary, put the gun back in the safe. In the end, if any of us have to use our conceled firearm aginst a BG, then we have to depend on the common sense of the Judge and a jury of our peers.
Now thats scary...:eek:
For the anti-2As who state that is is just a John Wayne complex, often fail to see that we have to ask ourselves very sticky and prickly questions about what would we do? I pray I'll never be in such a situation, but I have prepaired, mentally, if I ever have to.
Best of luck to us all...

[FLBri]

... When it comes out later that you are in the back, gun out, with a dead drop on the BG and you just let it happen... Then what?
Carry is a slippery slope, the right response is very situationally specific. The whole world is next free to "monday morning quaterback" your every move, or lack of and tell you and the world that you did everything wrong. If this is too scary, put the gun back in the safe. In the end, if any of us have to use our conceled firearm aginst a BG, then we have to depend on the common sense of the Judge and a jury of our peers.
Now thats scary...:eek:
For the anti-2As who state that is is just a John Wayne complex, often fail to see that we have to ask ourselves very sticky and prickly questions about what would we do? I pray I'll never be in such a situation, but I have prepaired, mentally, if I ever have to.
Best of luck to us all...


I'd have to say that if your decision to act, or not, is Dependant on what the news story about the situation is ... or even what your neighbor will think of you ... than, yes, you should put the gun back in the safe.

If I had the clarity of decision making at the time ... and could see that a shooting was imminent ... AND that no bystanders would be jeopardized as a result of MY actions ... I'd like to think I would act. It is truly a momentary analyzed decision. If the criteria was not clear, my duty and obligation is self defense for myself and that of my family.

[jocko]

Okay guys, just as an example of how crazy the "don't get involved" ideal gets...

What if, you go for milk and bread at the nearby Stop & Rob. Suddenly you find yourself watching a robbery from the back of the store by the coolers. The BG has tunnel vision on the clerk and register and he fails to see you. The clerk coperates and gives up the cash drawer. Good for her, shes doing it right. So you are sitting in the back, shevles for concelment, gun drawn and the BG suddenly decides to pop two into the clerk then move out.
When it comes out later that you are in the back, gun out, with a dead drop on the BG and you just let it happen... Then what?
Carry is a slippery slope, the right response is very situationally specific. The whole world is next free to "monday morning quaterback" your every move, or lack of and tell you and the world that you did everything wrong. If this is too scary, put the gun back in the safe. In the end, if any of us have to use our conceled firearm aginst a BG, then we have to depend on the common sense of the Judge and a jury of our peers.
Now thats scary...:eek:
For the anti-2As who state that is is just a John Wayne complex, often fail to see that we have to ask ourselves very sticky and prickly questions about what would we do? I pray I'll never be in such a situation, but I have prepaired, mentally, if I ever have to.
Best of luck to us all...

nice scenario but that is all that it is also. I guess I should temper my comments to what I WOULD DO, not what evertyone else should do, and until I get into a situation of some sort. I cannot tellyou what I will or will not do. I don't live by scenario's or what if's. I don't carry because I am scared, I carry becasue I am not scared. Because one carrys, he is under no law that says he must use it to protect anyone. If he wants to leave it in his pocket while 6 people get shot, it is his decision and one that he will have to live with. Just sayin.. Again, until U ARE THERE IN A SHTF situation, u have no real clue as to what your gonna do. Just my opinion on a matter that we cuold debate until the cows come home..

[Chuck54]

I'm with you Jocko.

I think our reactions could vary day to day.

[Popeye]

We could senario this and that all day and we'd still come out with what I said in my post. Some of you might remember where I said.
There's a large gray area there and everycase is different. Do what you got to do but for me it all about covering my arse first. Just the way it is.