Advice on Tactical Rifle Purchase

[itsthelaw]

I am looking to purchase a military-style tactical rifle to add to the gun collection. It will be used for shooting at a range and for potential SHTF situation. My fear is that they will be banned again or at least attacked for their capacity.

I would like to hear any comments on the various calibers available, quality manufacturers, ability to customize, reliability, etc. The story of Windham Weaponry is a great one, so may go in that direction if looking for AR-15. This will be my first one, so I am relatively clueless other than what I have read so far.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[jeepster09]

If I were to buy another one it would be .308 caliber. It has more useful options. YA I know ammo cost more, but it is a better caliber. I would even consider a SOCOM M1A if you can afford it, less hassle cleaning due to gas system used than an AR.

[itsthelaw]

If I were to buy another one it would be .308 caliber. It has more useful options. YA I know ammo cost more, but it is a better caliber. I would even consider a SOCOM M1A if you can afford it, less hassle cleaning due to gas system used than an AR.


What do you mean by "more useful options"? It looks a bit rich for my blood.

[Barth]

A less pricey option might be a Mini 30
http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ruger.jpg
Mini 14 Tactical looks interesting too.
http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/models.html
http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/images/5846.jpg

[steveschu]

If I were to buy another one it would be .308 caliber. It has more useful options. YA I know ammo cost more, but it is a better caliber. I would even consider a SOCOM M1A if you can afford it, less hassle cleaning due to gas system used than an AR.


I agree with choosing the Springfield SOCOM 16. I also agree with a quote from the Users manual "Your M1Afirearm is one of the finest military-type firearms ever built."

[les strat]

I think you are absolutely right. After what happened in Colorado, the UN Treay meeting on the 27th, and of course, the election, BUY NOW.

An AR would be good. Common ammo, very accurate rifles. Windham makes great rifles, and there are a lot of other companies making great rifles as well. Whatever you get, get one that is for 5.56, which will shoot 5.56 and .223. The opposite is not true and can be dangerous.

An AK is also a good SHTF buy. Most of them have went up in the last year or so, and even WASR's are over $500. Mine runs like a champ, eats cheap Tula/Monarch ammo, and begs for more. Just check that the front sights and gas block are straight in line, and it will be good to go. Unbeatable dependability and tons off 7.62 ammo in the USA.

Don't't skip over a good short-barrelled shotgun. A Rem 870 or any of the Mossy persuader-type shotties or Benelli's (if you got the dough) are good to have and are way better for close quarters than an AK or AR.

Or get one of each :D

[jeepster09]

I think you are absolutely right. After what happened in Colorado, the UN Treay meeting on the 27th, and of course, the election, BUY NOW.

An AR would be good. Common ammo, very accurate rifles. Windham makes great rifles, and there are a lot of other companies making great rifles as well. Whatever you get, get one that is for 5.56, which will shoot 5.56 and .223. The opposite is not true and can be dangerous.

An AK is also a good SHTF buy. Most of them have went up in the last year or so, and even WASR's are over $500. Mine runs like a champ, eats cheap Tula/Monarch ammo, and begs for more. Just check that the front sights and gas block are straight in line, and it will be good to go. Unbeatable dependability and tons off 7.62 ammo in the USA.

Don't't skip over a good short-barrelled shotgun. A Rem 870 or any of the Mossy persuader-type shotties or Benelli's (if you got the dough) are good to have and are way better for close quarters than an AK or AR.

Or get one of each :D


I think 308 Winchester is a better all around caliber, you can use it for deer, elk, shtf and any other game from coyotes all the way up to large types. The 223/556 caliber is more limited. The mini 30 is NOT 308 Winchester. If you do go with AR, look for a chrome lined barell at least, cost a little more but will last longer with less problems.


Mini 30:

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/IMG_1019.jpg


S&W AR OR:

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/AR4.jpg

[QuercusMax]

I, too, am contemplating such a purchase. Several items are on my short list.

Meanwhile, I actually *do* have a black rifle: It's an M&P 15-22, and it's pure joy to shoot - and inexpensive. I have the Performance Center version, with lots of additional 25 rd mags and an A2 flash hider screwed on to the end, but the cheaper 15-22's are a lot of fun, too.

If and when I decide to look for its big brother, I've been eyeing a Colt 6920, M&P 15, or maybe (drool) an FN SCAR 16s or 17s. :4:

Or maybe I'll buy something else first.

[jeepster09]

You could always consider a Bolt rifle, I like my Ruger Gunsite 308.


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/IMG_1297.jpg

[PYROhafe]

you guys are killin me! I want to add a nice "black" gun to my collection especially with all this hoo ha goin on right now.... Ide like to find one that can double as a cheap 22 shooter for fun days at the range, but throw it into a shtf situation when swapped back to meaner ammo

[Indigo]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/0dfc9d9b.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/0b06539f.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/b77a0d8a.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/6d22fd32.jpg
Here's my favorite toy fitting your needs. Springfield M1A Socom 2 with extended rail, Trijicon ACOG 4x32 TA-31F-G scope on quick-release Larue RCO mount. It's my first rifle and after 3 months I generally spend 2 days a week shooting 40 rounds of .308 each time. 20 at 100 yds (left) and 20 at 220 (right). For my needs 20 .308 rounds inside 6" should obliterate anything moving. As you can see at 220 yds my rounds are spread out to 10" but that's more of a limitation to the scope than the rifle. This setup would drop things really fast as a higher priority than hitting a 2" group and I'm good with that.

[itsthelaw]

That SOCOM is beautiful, Indigo. All these guns are very cool. What's the highest round capacity for the SOCOM?

[Indigo]

I have Springfield 20 round factory mags (it comes with one 10-rounder) and they don't make 30's but there may be after-market 30 rounders available. I wanted that capacity but that would make for a pretty long magazine just length-wise in this gun. My dream gun would be a 5.56 M1A. Too bad it doesn't exist though. But .308's will do some serious damage. It's my pride and joy thank you.

[itsthelaw]

I sent you a PM, Indigo.

[jeepster09]

Socom is way to go!!!! Looks awesome.

[Indigo]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/devito99/1bca2eae.jpg

Here's this mornings target. Shot a higher quality ammo than I typically shoot at range first 20 rounds high so 2 clicks down put next 20 right around the middle. Like I said this is not a 2" group rifle but if I can put 40 rounds inside 8" quickly without a lot of moving parts to constantly adjust my goals are satisfied.
PM returned.

[ltxi]

I am looking to purchase a military-style tactical rifle to add to the gun collection. It will be used for shooting at a range and for potential SHTF situation. My fear is that they will be banned again or at least attacked for their capacity.

I would like to hear any comments on the various calibers available, quality manufacturers, ability to customize, reliability, etc. The story of Windham Weaponry is a great one, so may go in that direction if looking for AR-15. This will be my first one, so I am relatively clueless other than what I have read so far.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Conventional wisdom would suggest a quality AR-15, and I agree although I don't own one.

A few decades ago I decided on 7.62x39 and .308 for this kind of work.

[titus1971]

I was thinking the same thing a few months ago just in case they were banned after the election and/or we had a "apocolyptic" situation. I decided on an M&P 15 sport model because
1. It was cheap $699 for the sport model, no dust cover or forward assist but the whole time I was in the Desert I dont think I ever had to use the forward assist.
2. In a true SHTF situation you want an ample supply of ammo in the event you cant just go to the store and get some. They Army, Highway patrol, sheriff dept. etc all use the AR-15 so 5.56 ammo would be plentiful in a "scavanging" situation (same reason I went with .40 cal handgun), it's widely used
3. Along with ammo availability in a SHTF situation, you should also be able to scavenge spare parts for an AR style becasue they are so plentiful and the parts are interchangeable
4. It's light if you had to travel/hike/hideout etc. That's actually one of the reasons the Army chose that platform,
5. Good supply of ammo on the open market, SD rounds, AP rounds, sniping rounds and it's relatively cheap (compared to high powered rifle calibers)

[itsthelaw]

Titus - Thanks for the description of your reasoning. I am a total newbie to them, so some of the lingo is lost on me. I am trying to get as much knowlwedge as I can, and your comments help!

[titus1971]

you betcha!
Plus I forgot to mention, they are really fun to shoot! Almost no recoil :)

[les strat]

And you can get a kit to convert a 5.56/.223 to .22 for $150-200.

I like .308, but more in a longer barrelled rifle with a big scope.

[knkali]

You could always consider a Bolt rifle, I like my Ruger Gunsite 308.


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/IMG_1297.jpg
That is a classic example of gun porn. NICE. What trij is on this rifle?

[yqtszhj]

AR-15. Then if you want a .22 or .308 you can get another upper. i know it's more money for another upper but you can get some good stuff. Ammo is cheap and you can practive a lot and parts are easily found if wanted.

Shot placement is everything. a .223 at 3200 fps is a show stopper if placed correctly. Practice to hit a 2 inch circle at 100 yards every time and you can hunt with it if you like with the right HP ammo.

[les strat]

AR-15. Then if you want a .22 or .308 you can get another upper. i know it's more money for another upper but you can get some good stuff. Ammo is cheap and you can practive a lot and parts are easily found if wanted.

Shot placement is everything. a .223 at 3200 fps is a show stopper if placed correctly. Practice to hit a 2 inch circle at 100 yards every time and you can hunt with it if you like with the right HP ammo.

Or get this (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27008/Product/CMMG-AR-15-22-LR-CONVERSION-KIT) for much cheaper than an upper!

[melissa5]

In theory, the .22 conversion kit is a good idea, but you have to change your zero every time you switch back and forth.

[jeepster09]

You get what you pay for. Spend as much as you can afford, it's cheaper to do right the first time.

[Chuck54]

I'm looking at a CZ527 carbine. Light,handy and available in 223 or 7.62x39

[PYROhafe]

thanks a lot itsthelaw! I was putting off my "need" for a tactical type rifle, but now im following this thread to see what turns up, and all its done is reinforce my "need" for one..... ok maybe its not really your fault, but I gotta have someone to blame when i get in trouble with the girl for spending money on gun stuff again :D
looks like the s&w mp sport might be a decent option for the money? Whats the cons to not getting a forward assist or dust shield?

[itsthelaw]

I will take the blame, Pyro! Here is the conclusion from my perspective. A guy who trains with ARs said that I should look to spend about $1300-$1500 on a solid, complete gun from Daniel Defense, Stag or S&W. I'm not sure why he left out Colt. He said that I should start with a great barrel, mid gas system and mid or rifle.length hand guard and buy a complete gun...except optics. I have been asking around, reading and looking at 3 gun sites. I have concluded that he gave good advice. In fact, many others have gone through a few guns to end up with Daniel Defense...including our friend and gun toting gal Melissa5. I also concluded that the DD will last a long time and hold value. As long as I am spending money and having my lovely wife wonder what the heck I am doing, I may as well go BIG. That's my opinion!

[yqtszhj]

thanks a lot itsthelaw! I was putting off my "need" for a tactical type rifle, but now im following this thread to see what turns up, and all its done is reinforce my "need" for one..... ok maybe its not really your fault, but I gotta have someone to blame when i get in trouble with the girl for spending money on gun stuff again :D
looks like the s&w mp sport might be a decent option for the money? Whats the cons to not getting a forward assist or dust shield?

Everyone needs one. In 10 years the value will NOT go down I would say. Get it, Get it, Get it.

[jeepster09]

That is a classic example of gun porn. NICE. What trij is on this rifle?

Trijigicon Acupoint 3-9.

[yqtszhj]

Or get this (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27008/Product/CMMG-AR-15-22-LR-CONVERSION-KIT) for much cheaper than an upper!

I have thought about this. I was wondering if it would bugger up the barrel or anything. Do you have to change out any springs in the action to get it to work well I wonder.

Melissa, on that re-zero, there's a big difference between the drop at 100 yards when traveling 3200 fps compared to 1200 fps huh?

[melissa5]

I have thought about this. I was wondering if it would bugger up the barrel or anything. Do you have to change out any springs in the action to get it to work well I wonder.

Melissa, on that re-zero, there's a big difference between the drop at 100 yards when traveling 3200 fps compared to 1200 fps huh?

I don't remember how far it was off, but I do remember that I got tired of fooling with it. An M&P 15-22 solved that problem. :)

[PYROhafe]

wow... 1300-1500? What about for someone who isnt looking to shoot 3 gun.... just wants a nice rifle for fun at the range, and possibly SHTF situation?

[QuercusMax]

I don't remember how far it was off, but I do remember that I got tired of fooling with it. An M&P 15-22 solved that problem. :)

I really like my M&P 15-22. It's fun and inexpensive to shoot, and is the quietest unsuppressed gun I own. It needs a big brother really soon now, though.

[yqtszhj]

wow... 1300-1500? What about for someone who isnt looking to shoot 3 gun.... just wants a nice rifle for fun at the range, and possibly SHTF situation?

AR-15 in 5.56 will fit the bill.

[PYROhafe]

AR-15 in 5.56 will fit the bill.

OK.... thats what I was hoping... now the ultimate question of buy parts and build, (hopefully right) and save a lil money, or buy assembled and have no worries and a warranty?

[yqtszhj]

OK.... thats what I was hoping... now the ultimate question of buy parts and build, (hopefully right) and save a lil money, or buy assembled and have no worries and a warranty?

Here you go:

Windham Weaponry - Formerly Bushmaster (then go get yourself some 30 round mags for $5 at your local gun show.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1062/products_id/78850/Rifles/Windham+Weaponry/Windham%20Weaponry%20R16M4A4PTNY%20SRC%20Semi-Automatic%20223%20Remingto/

or I have this one (excellent)
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/60/products_id/13229/Rifles/Bushmaster/Bushmaster%20BCWA3S20%20223%20BAY/FLS/3ORD/

and the wife has this one (very good)
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/60/products_id/77401/Rifles/Bushmaster/Bushmaster%20223%20PATROLMN%20BB%2010R/

[les strat]

Here you go:

Windham Weaponry - Formerly Bushmaster (then go get yourself some 30 round mags for $5 at your local gun show.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1062/products_id/78850/Rifles/Windham+Weaponry/Windham%20Weaponry%20R16M4A4PTNY%20SRC%20Semi-Automatic%20223%20Remingto/

or I have this one (excellent)
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/60/products_id/13229/Rifles/Bushmaster/Bushmaster%20BCWA3S20%20223%20BAY/FLS/3ORD/

and the wife has this one (very good)
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/60/products_id/77401/Rifles/Bushmaster/Bushmaster%20223%20PATROLMN%20BB%2010R/

I looked at the first one you listed at my LGS when I was AR shopping. I liked it A LOT, but didn't want the fixed stock that looks like an adjustable. They didn't have the other two you listed or I probably would have walked out with one, so I ended up with the Colt.

[PYROhafe]

any opinions on this one? Its a bushmaster.... thats good right?
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/69657

[MLESa7990]

Stag makes some very good quality and priced rifles. Recently picked up a model 3 myself and love it.

[PYROhafe]

First off.... itsthelaw... did you get anything yet?
Second: the funds have finally fallen into place for me, and im officially in the market for an AR. Ive been reading and shopping and reading and shopping some more, and I think for my budget Ive narrowed it down to 2 options. The windham weaponry for sale at my local range (if I can talk him down a little, if not one from online) or pay a little more for a palmetto state armory. I like the idea that the palmetto comes from my home state, so that might be influencing my decision just a little. If anyone has some opionions on either of these, please let me know. If you have a recommendation for something in this same price point with a better review, feel free to throw that out there too!

THANKS!

[TheTman]

Indigo, if you want a M1A in 223, the Mini 14 is pretty darn close. A buddy has the Mini 14 and Mini 30 (7.62x39 Russian) and loves em both. There are quite a few after market parts available to dress it up however you like.
I went with MAK90's (Ak 47's that don't look so scary) for my SHTF weapon, back when they had cases of cheap surplus Russian steel cased ammo for sale. Those days are gone, but still have most the ammo. I'm thinking I'd better get something that shoots 5.56 nato, so I can scrounge ammo if SHTF. Got a couple nice bolt action 7.62 nato rifles, and Indian Ishapore, and an Israeli conversion of a Kar98. Both are pretty solid rifles. Although the Ishapore weighs a ton, and none of the aftermarket lightweight sporter stocks seem to fit it. Guess I could bubba-ize it and take some of the extra wood off. Hate to do that, as it ruins the collector value, if there is any on those rifles.

[les strat]

Either one would make a fine rifle. Yo know Windham used to make Bushmasters, and are now considered a cut above Bushies. My LGS has a Windham fixed stock for about $750. I almost bought it, but disn't want to drop $ replacing the fixed stock which I didn't like. Great gun though.

I'm not being nosey, but what is your budget? There might be more rifles that are as good or better for what you have to spend. For not much more than what I listed above, I have seen some DD rifles.

[7shot]

I was thinking the same thing a few months ago just in case they were banned after the election and/or we had a "apocolyptic" situation. I decided on an M&P 15 sport model because
1. It was cheap $699 for the sport model, no dust cover or forward assist but the whole time I was in the Desert I dont think I ever had to use the forward assist.
2. In a true SHTF situation you want an ample supply of ammo in the event you cant just go to the store and get some. They Army, Highway patrol, sheriff dept. etc all use the AR-15 so 5.56 ammo would be plentiful in a "scavanging" situation (same reason I went with .40 cal handgun), it's widely used
3. Along with ammo availability in a SHTF situation, you should also be able to scavenge spare parts for an AR style becasue they are so plentiful and the parts are interchangeable
4. It's light if you had to travel/hike/hideout etc. That's actually one of the reasons the Army chose that platform,
5. Good supply of ammo on the open market, SD rounds, AP rounds, sniping rounds and it's relatively cheap (compared to high powered rifle calibers)


This is the same reason I purchased a AR, except I got the Bushmaster Superlight with red dot scope for $800.

[PYROhafe]

I'm not being nosey, but what is your budget? There might be more rifles that are as good or better for what you have to spend. For not much more than what I listed above, I have seen some DD rifles.[/QUOTE]


trying to stay around the 7-800 mark, but 9 is the ABSOLUTE max, and it would have to pretty hopped up, or come with a bunch of goodies for me to be willing to spend the ENTIRE budge of 900.

[itsthelaw]

Hey, Y'all...

I got a DD M4 V1. I was looking for a mid length system, but found this one for $1000. It is lightly used and has some extra gear with it, including a great rifle case with rollers. I could not pass it up. I have been traveling for 3 weeks, so I have not even shot it yet. From everything that I read and heard, DD is a great gun. I am very happy with the purchase! Thanks for asking.

[les strat]

trying to stay around the 7-800 mark, but 9 is the ABSOLUTE max, and it would have to pretty hopped up, or come with a bunch of goodies for me to be willing to spend the ENTIRE budge of 900.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_1062/products_id/77545/Windham+Weaponry+R16M4FTT+M4+A3+223+16+RAIL+30R
Best bang for your buck is the flta top Windham IMO. You'd still have some $ to go towards an Eotech 512 or Aimpoint Pro with a little extra. That or some Troy or Magpul flip up sights. The Magpuls are polymer and drop tested. That's what I am running lower 1/3 cowitenss through my Eotech. Tough as nails.

Keep us posted!

[PYROhafe]

Best bang for your buck is the flta top Windham IMO. You'd still have some $ to go towards an Eotech 512 or Aimpoint Pro with a little extra. That or some Troy or Magpul flip up sights. The Magpuls are polymer and drop tested. That's what I am running lower 1/3 cowitenss through my Eotech. Tough as nails.

Keep us posted!

That last part (about the optics) doesnt make a bit of sense to me yet. (im a TOTAL ar noob) Does the windham have a 1:9 twist? I read that the 1:9 works well with the cheap ammo and is good for average shooter who isnt gonna go for super long range, or run the real heavy ammo so that seems like it would be best for me. Other than that, the windham looks like it might be my choice.... Gonna do some more shoppin around at the local shops before I do the online thing again though... at least TRY to spend locally

[les strat]

The Windham I am talking about did not come with sights or optics. There are many to choose from, but you can buy flip-up sights made by various companies that fold down out of your way when using an optic. If your AR does not have sights or optics, you have to tack on some sort of sights or optic to your price tag.

These are Troy folding sights and are pretty pricey but great sights. The polymer Magpul folding sights (called "MBUS") are tough as nails and about half the cost of the Troys.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/KevinJenne/Troy_BUIS1.jpg

Co-witness is when you can view your sights through your optics to verify or use if the optic fails. Some Eotechs and other optics have full co-witness where your iron sights line up and are centered (if you needed to) in the center of the optic. Some people put their Eotech on a riser where they get a cowitness of their sights in the lower 1/3 of the optic screen to keep the sight picture uncluttered. I hope that made sense, lol.

Co-witness
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/KevinJenne/eotret2.jpg

Lower 1/3 co-witness
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/KevinJenne/fbal2f.jpg

1/9 twist is good for shooting lighter loads but will not stabilize heavier gr bullets. 1/7 is "mil-spec", but most of us shoot 55 gr anyway. Just remember, if the barrel is labeled for 5.56, it will shoot .223 fine. You should not shoot 5.56 ammo through a barrel labeled .223

[PYROhafe]

Les, thanks for all the help! So 1/7 will still shoot the light stuff as well? (As in cheap bulk buy stuff?) Any recommendations on a decent noob sight set up is appreciated too. I thought about goin just basic iron or a low line red dot to start?

[les strat]

If it were me (and I was in your shopping shoes not too long ago), I'd buy a flat top with a fixed front sight and add a folding rear sight (Troy, Magpul, etc). Most here will tell you to not waste your money on a cheap red dot sight. Shoot with your irons for now and save that $100 to go towards that Eotech, Aimpoint, Trijicon, etc.

[skychief12]

What I have not heard anyone point out (maybe I missed it) is that most manufactures stick to "mil spec" parts and are therefore interchangeable making price differences something to question. Sometimes the only difference is the name.

The AR is an extremely flexible platform. By pushing out 2 pins on the lower receiver, you can change to several different caliber uppers with their matching magazine. Personally I have 223/5.56, .22, 6.8, & .410 (shotgun) complete uppers for one lower. There are others caliber out there. The .308, and I think .450 SOCOM will require a different lower however.

BTW, only the stripped lower receiver part requires the filling out of Fed forms. There is no such requirement for the purchase of the upper or other parts.

[les strat]

What I have not heard anyone point out (maybe I missed it) is that most manufactures stick to "mil spec" parts and are therefore interchangeable making price differences something to question. Sometimes the only difference is the name.



Some do not use "milspec" metals for the barrels and other parts, may use commercial size tubes, etc. In the grand scheme of things, to most of us, it won't matter for range use, but for those wanting as close as possible to what is issued in the military, some are in a different tier. You can't say a DPMC is on par with a Noveske or Colt. These charts help point out some differences in popular AR brands.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

http://4-riders.com/pics/AR/080527-AR-Comparison-Chart.jpg

[jeepster09]

You will also want to look at barell's. Some are chrome lined [better] some are not. I bought the Smith & Wesson because it came with chrome lined barell and DPMS does not. Like I said earlier, you get what you pay for. The better made the more it will cost. Some "cheap" models even have plastic receivers....do your homework.


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764994_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[Scoundrel]

looks like the s&w mp sport might be a decent option for the money? Whats the cons to not getting a forward assist or dust shield?

I went with the M&P 15 Sport and I love it. Here is a good review of it:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

With the money I saved by purchasing the sport model instead of the one my LGS recommended, I bought some Magpul magazines, a nice Magpul handguard, a spring-loaded foregrip/bipod, an entry level scope, a rubber butt pad, and some ammo. And I had some change left over.

http://kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6242&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344980843

This model has a Melonite coating in the barrel instead of chrome. Some detractors might say "but the barrel is not chrome lined and that's what the military uses so it must be the best".
S&W says they put around 170,000 rounds of various types of ammo through two of their test rifles and the melonite coating is holding up fine.
I say the melonite coating is new technology and the military is slow to embrace change - and if S&W says it's good enough, that works for me.



The absence of a dust cover means that if you carry your AR-15 into a sandstorm, if might get clogged up. The reviewers in the above article intentionally tossed some handfuls of sand in there and the rifle still ran OK (if a little gritty).

The absence of the dust cover also means you'll spend a little less time cleaning your rifle. There won't be any springs, hinges or pins to clean the grit out of. Oh, and the absence of the dust cover means you don't get to fiddle around with a spring loaded door in order to figure out what's going on in the chamber when something doesn't cycle properly. Unfortunately, you'll just be able to look in there through the opening. Where's the fun in that?



The absence of the forward assist means that it's harder for you to jam a malformed round into your chamber so hard that it's hopelessly stuck and you're going to have to fire it and then attempt to pound the casing out from the front with a cleaning rod, hoping you won't do much damage to the barrel/chamber in the process.

The forward assist is NOT meant for jamming stuck rounds into the chamber. Its original purpose, as I understand it, is to quietly ease a round into the chamber with no little or noise - for stealth. It can also be used for GENTLY pushing on a round that does fully go into battery. Idiots who watch too much TV use it for jamming a stuck round into the chamber forcefully.
Even though the Sport model does not have a forward assist, it does still have the scalloped cutouts in the bolt, so you can reach in there with your finger or something and push lightly on it. You wouldn't want to use much force anyway, and the grip afforded by the scalloped cutouts is enough. Says the reviewer: "Even with dirty rifle with a gritty action, I could easily seat rounds after a manually-induced malfunction."


If you want a very rugged rifle that you can wear while you go swimming in a swamp, toss it into a mud pit, stomp on it, and piss on it, and then expect it to work, buy an AK. But if you want a sweet rifle that is deadly accurate, works great with the proper maintenance, and looks very handsome, buy an AR. Ammo and parts are readily available for both.

[les strat]

http://kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6242&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344980843



If you want a very rugged rifle that you can wear while you go swimming in a swamp, toss it into a mud pit, stomp on it, and piss on it, and then expect it to work, buy an AK. But if you want a sweet rifle that is deadly accurate, works great with the proper maintenance, and looks very handsome, buy an AR. Ammo and parts are readily available for both.

Or buy both! :D

Nice rifle!

[PYROhafe]

ahhhhhhh!!!! so confused!!!
Thanks for all the help guys, but this seems to be one of those searchers where the more research I do, the more confused I become, and the more options I find that fit the bill for me.... guess ill just keep shopping and be patient and see what the right deal brings me. Ill keep everyone posted on what happens and when.

[7shot]

ahhhhhhh!!!! so confused!!!
Thanks for all the help guys, but this seems to be one of those searchers where the more research I do, the more confused I become, and the more options I find that fit the bill for me.... guess ill just keep shopping and be patient and see what the right deal brings me. Ill keep everyone posted on what happens and when.

The way I looked at it when I was looking was: questin 1. how often am I really going to shoot it and 2, why do I want one? My answers were 1. 3-4 times a month max and 2. Because I don't have one and it would be fun for my son and I to spend quality time together. He likes to shoot too, he has a Walter 22. So I was thinking in the $800-$900, definitely in the low to mid range. So what I got was a good brand (Bushmaster) and an entry level AR. I don't live out in the woods where you might actually have a better use for a rifle so I couldn't justify spending $1000-$1500 or more on something I just wasn't going to use that much. Anyway that's my way of thinking...

[kahrseye]

I bought my AR about a month ago after much debate over which brand to purchase and decided upon a Rock River Arms. A couple of buddies of mine are Police officers and recommended RRA. I've only had it out once and was very impressed with it's accuracy. Since then I've added an Eotech XPS 2 and a 5X magnifer. Can't wait to get back to the range and sight it in.

[7shot]

I bought my AR about a month ago after much debate over which brand to purchase and decided upon a Rock River Arms. A couple of buddies of mine are Police officers and recommended RRA. I've only had it out once and was very impressed with it's accuracy. Since then I've added an Eotech XPS 2 and a 5X magnifer. Can't wait to get back to the range and sight it in.


If I was ever to upgrade Rock River is what I'd get, these are quality AR's too. How did you like the Eotech sight system?

[QuercusMax]

Please allow me to suggest that you really need to cultivate some friends at a local range where there are lots of AR shooters. Seeing them in action and hearing first hand reports of other shooter's experience, probably backed up by offers to, "Here, try this" will really clear away the fog quickly.

Years ago, I bought a used American Eagle by ArmaLite AR-10A2 based on reputation. It was a great shooter and a lot of fun, but it's gone now because I really should have purchased a flat top. Experience is a great teacher. I sold it without a loss, but it would have been easier (and more cost effective) to hang out with the guys at the range a bit first.

Live and learn . . . http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejustsomeguy/icon_lol.gif

I think this is great advice. It's always good to learn from others instead of just one's own mistakes.

Unfortunately in my case I live in a very remote area where a "range" usually consists of a few targets that a couple guys set up. Mostly cowboy action shooters, which I think is interesting but that I haven't gotten into yet.

So I'm still trying to figure this out on my own. I'd really like to get a SCAR 16s, but they are pretty pricey.

[dkmatthews]

I've owned two different brands of AR-15 rifles: Rock River Arms and Olympic Arms. I ended up selling both and just finished building my own from the parts that I chose.

I built a flat-top 5.56 using a Geissele trigger, FailZero bolt-carrier group, Magpul stock, grip, and handguards. I intend to buy a suppressor from Innovative Arms (http://www.innovativearms.com), a company out of South Carolina, so I used one of their Warfighter Adjustable Receiver uppers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7wQhaACZac

http://bfmn5h3ucs.site.aplus.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/WARUPPER5.56.jpg



http://bfmn5h3ucs.site.aplus.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/WARLEVERS2.jpg

[ltxi]

I went with the M&P 15 Sport and I love it. Here is a good review of it:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

With the money I saved by purchasing the sport model instead of the one my LGS recommended, I bought some Magpul magazines, a nice Magpul handguard, a spring-loaded foregrip/bipod, an entry level scope, a rubber butt pad, and some ammo. And I had some change left over.

http://kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6242&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344980843

This model has a Melonite coating in the barrel instead of chrome. Some detractors might say "but the barrel is not chrome lined and that's what the military uses so it must be the best".
S&W says they put around 170,000 rounds of various types of ammo through two of their test rifles and the melonite coating is holding up fine.
I say the melonite coating is new technology and the military is slow to embrace change - and if S&W says it's good enough, that works for me.



The absence of a dust cover means that if you carry your AR-15 into a sandstorm, if might get clogged up. The reviewers in the above article intentionally tossed some handfuls of sand in there and the rifle still ran OK (if a little gritty).

The absence of the dust cover also means you'll spend a little less time cleaning your rifle. There won't be any springs, hinges or pins to clean the grit out of. Oh, and the absence of the dust cover means you don't get to fiddle around with a spring loaded door in order to figure out what's going on in the chamber when something doesn't cycle properly. Unfortunately, you'll just be able to look in there through the opening. Where's the fun in that?



The absence of the forward assist means that it's harder for you to jam a malformed round into your chamber so hard that it's hopelessly stuck and you're going to have to fire it and then attempt to pound the casing out from the front with a cleaning rod, hoping you won't do much damage to the barrel/chamber in the process.

The forward assist is NOT meant for jamming stuck rounds into the chamber. Its original purpose, as I understand it, is to quietly ease a round into the chamber with no little or noise - for stealth. It can also be used for GENTLY pushing on a round that does fully go into battery. Idiots who watch too much TV use it for jamming a stuck round into the chamber forcefully.
Even though the Sport model does not have a forward assist, it does still have the scalloped cutouts in the bolt, so you can reach in there with your finger or something and push lightly on it. You wouldn't want to use much force anyway, and the grip afforded by the scalloped cutouts is enough. Says the reviewer: "Even with dirty rifle with a gritty action, I could easily seat rounds after a manually-induced malfunction."


If you want a very rugged rifle that you can wear while you go swimming in a swamp, toss it into a mud pit, stomp on it, and piss on it, and then expect it to work, buy an AK. But if you want a sweet rifle that is deadly accurate, works great with the proper maintenance, and looks very handsome, buy an AR. Ammo and parts are readily available for both.

Great, sane post.

Last paragraph is where I'm at as a 7.62x39 addict who has never forgiven being victimized by the earliest M16s.

For me, AR-15, AK-47, and platform variations are working guns. I have other arms for sport, handsome, and accurate.

[PYROhafe]

well thanks a lot dk! Ide love to go with a full palmetto setup (including that WAR setup now) but thats a lil outta my price range.
Im starting to lean toward going with a decent budget AR (maybe the mp15 sport or similar) and using the extra I would have spent on a better AR for a nice 22 plinker pistol. That way I have two modes of fun at the range. Guess that would be great for now considering I dont really plan on abusing the heck out of the AR, and a 22 pistol is always great/fun at the range. Like I said before.... just tooooooo many options! yeah... sometimes multiple options is a bad thing!

[skychief12]

You can't say a DPMC is on par with a Noveske or Colt.

It all depends on the objective. If looking cool is the objective then the above is true. If accuracy/performance is the objective, then it is just as likely as not that an equally configured DPMC or any other will out shoot a DD, Colt, etc (trigger puller's skill excluded).

IMHO, I'd go the a very basic flat top, replace the fire controls with whatever you think is the best 3# or less trigger pull. Full floater, best match grade barrel you like (head spaced) NO Chrome Bore, and the best optics your budget allows. but that's just me.

[les strat]

Then you could have had a top tier rifle from the start if you are going to spend all the coin replacing stuff. I wouldn't say it has anything to do with looking cool. More like longevity of factory parts. It's no different than buying a S&W revolver over a Charter Arms. Same concept we gun owners do all the time.

But, different strokes...

That said, any AR15 is better than no AR15.

[Barth]

FN SCAR 17S
http://gunsnfa.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/DSC_0234.13202739_std.jpg

[PYROhafe]

What I wouldn't give to spend a day with barth n his guns....

[MikeyKahr]

What I wouldn't give to spend a day with barth n his guns....

Yeah me too. He has enough for the both of us... And our extended families and co-workers and neighbors! :)

[PYROhafe]

Yeah me too. He has enough for the both of us... And our extended families and co-workers and neighbors! :)

YEAH! I say we plan a party at day at Barths house! The whole Kahrtalk family invited!! Im sure that leaves at least one gun for each of us!! haha :D

[QuercusMax]

FN SCAR 17S
http://gunsnfa.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/DSC_0234.13202739_std.jpg

Drool....

Exactly! Well, except that I want the 16s. I don't need the range and power of .308, nor the ammo cost. But the color (FDE) is right, because it is more accurate than the black ones.

[AIRret]

The hubby and I have been looking at AR's, and these posts have been great.
Thanks

[les strat]

The hubby and I have been looking at AR's, and these posts have been great.
Thanks

Whatever you guys get, you'll enjoy it. They are fun!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/KevinJenne/aroutside.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v385/KevinJenne/aroutside2.jpg

[PYROhafe]

First, thanks to everyone for the input/help!

Well.... after much debate and shopping, and input and advice and research and more shopping (ahhh!), I finally decided on one! Decided to go with the local company for the build, and bought from a local gun store so I feel good about things all the way around! Went with the Palmetto State Armory! Gotta get a rear sight for now (ill start doing research on optics next) then cant wait to get it to the range this weekend! (hopefully ill be able to use my cm9 logo :D for this one too!)
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii69/pyrohafe/DSCN4701.jpg
^please ignore the toes^

[TucsonMTB]

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii69/pyrohafe/DSCN4701.jpgNice looking rifle, sir! That your shop would let you out the door without a rear sight, is a surprise. The profit on those little $50+ doodads has got to be high. ;)

[PYROhafe]

Thank you! Im super pumped to try this bad boy out!
yeah they tried.... i decided to take the internet route instead :) already got some magpuls on ebay im lookin at

[GROTMAN]

First, thanks to everyone for the input/help!

Well.... after much debate and shopping, and input and advice and research and more shopping (ahhh!), I finally decided on one! Decided to go with the local company for the build, and bought from a local gun store so I feel good about things all the way around! Went with the Palmetto State Armory! Gotta get a rear sight for now (ill start doing research on optics next) then cant wait to get it to the range this weekend! (hopefully ill be able to use my cm9 logo :D for this one too!)
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii69/pyrohafe/DSCN4701.jpg
^please ignore the toes^
Congrats on the new purchase.. now curious about what you did about the RING ?

[PYROhafe]

Congrats on the new purchase.. now curious about what you did about the RING ?


o man.... i was hoping u guys forgot lol. but shhhh the funds for the ring are in my account, and im currently shopping for "the right one" for her. She has no idea, but she told me to go ahead and buy my AR so she could quit worrying about me bringing home a ring. So the AR was a double whammy! It got me what I wanted, and kept her from getting suspicious about a ring coming her way.

[Scoundrel]

o man.... i was hoping u guys forgot lol.

KahrTalk never sleeps, and never forgets.