Shotgun - Round 2

[melissa5]

OK, so I've had a Mossberg 500 Tactical in 12 gauge (pistol grip, adjustable AR style stock) and I hated it. It was heavy and had a lot of recoil even with light loads. Sold it shortly after buying it. Now, I still need a shotun, but want one that I can make friends with. :hippie: What I'm thinking about is a Remington 870 Compact in 20 gauge. It has a 21" barrel and a shorter stock than a full size shotty. It actually feels good in my hands and weighs just 6 lbs. But, something in my brain keeps nagging at me to get a 12 gauge. There are more accessories and ammo choices for a 12 gauge. It's purpose will be for home defense and some tactical rifle/shotgun matches. I know it will shoot paper just fine, but I wonder about knock down steel targets. What do ya'll think?

[MW surveyor]

Try a semi-auto in 12 gauge. It will shoot slightly softer than a pump.

[Chuck54]

I like my old police plain 870 12ga. added a Speed feed 2 stock with matching pump handle.

It has evolved over the years; it also has been fitted with choke tubes and rifle sights.

Recoil is not too bad especially with the reduced recoil loads.

It patterns nicely with the modified choke tube.

[getsome]

I have a Mossberg 500 plain jane 18" barrel for home defense with bead sight and love the thing...I like where the slide release is located on the trigger guard and it just feels more natural than my sons 870 Remington 20 gauge but he likes his better...

IMHO I would go with a 20 gauge over a 12 for a couple of reasons..1st reason is it will kick less, his with 20 gauge slugs feels about like my 30-30 Marlin, you know you shot something but it isn't punishing and even with bead sights its surprisingly accurate to 20-25 yards and is just plain fun to shoot...2nd if ever there was a SHTF situation I think you would be able to find pleanty of 20 gauge ammo but 12 gauge would fly off the shelf...

I really think the perfect home defense shotgun is a short barrel 20 gauge pump of whatever flavor brand you like best, some folks myself included like the safety and slide release of the Mossberg and some folks feel just the opposite but whatever brand you go with you can rest assured that a 20 gauge with buck shot or slugs will take care of any predator you might run into short of a T-Rex...

[Alfonse]

Even though I love my Ithaca, you would probably like a semi-auto more. I bought a Mossberg 930 because it felt pretty good and was cheap. I could go nuts spending money on a true shotgun of beauty, but just can't justify it.

The Mossberg might be worth a look, but you seem like you might like the FN or Beretta, or Benelli more. The FN is popular with 3 gun folks. I almost went there and it is sweet.

[mr surveyor]

Melissa

Last summer I bought a Mossberg 500 "Bantam" 20 ga to try out during dove season. It's a "shorter" (fairly nice) wood stock (13 inch lop), 21 inch vent rib barrel (with choke tubes), and 5 round mag tube (I have to plug it to 2 during dove season). It has the tang safety, and operates smooth as silk. I don't have "short arms", but due to a few injuries over the years my reach and flexibility are a bit limited. It's not set up to hang a bunch of accessories on it, and not necessarily designed as the typical "tacticool" shotgun, but amazingly manueverable. Not that it would fit your needs for "Tactical" (it very well could though), but I improved my dove kill ratio last year by 25% with that little gun. I figure the "can't kill what you can't hit" side of the equation means a lot more than the "more pellets means more kills" idea. I would have bought the same gun in 12 ga if it were available, but I did prove to myself that the shorter stock (actually closer to standard rifle stock in lop) made "snap shots" and long sweep shots much more effective.

Just another idea to tinker with.

surv

[les strat]

Maybe look at the Benelli M4 Tactical. Pricey little things though.
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli-m4.php

Semiautos are a little bit less on recoil than pumps. Pumps are usually more reliable.

I like my Mossy Tactical Persuader though. It recoils like most any other 12 gauge I've ever shot.

[CJB]

Currently, two used police/riot 12g 870's, with full mag tubes and 20" barrels, original wood stocks, and some factory QD slings. A steal at $89 each!

The recent Mossberg 500 ... ahem. No comment (yet).

The 870's have the heft, thats for sure. The AR type stock on a 500 might have contributed to the sensation of "kick", which as we know is the perception of the actual recoil while firing.

IOW, two guns can have the exact same recoil, but one will kick a lot harder than the other. Case in point, the Ruger Red Label is noted for its "kick" while the similarly weighted Winchester 101 has quite nearly the same recoil, but less kick.

[melissa5]

Yeah, you stole those 870 police guns, CJB! :) I've been seeing those on gunbroker for over $200.

I've been told that a pistol grip and AR type stock will cause more perceived recoil than a regular stock.

I started out looking at semi autos, but decided to stay with a pump because of reliability since this gun will double as a home defense gun.

Wish I could afford a Benelli or FN!

The 870 compact is very similar to the Mossberge 500 Bantam. LOL! I don't really need tactical. Maybe a mag extension tube and a receiver mounted shell carrier.

[jeepster09]

Remington 870 20 guage.....Magnaported....virtually NO RECOIL...with Boyd's stock and XS Big Dot night sight.


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/IMG_1157.jpg

[Popeye]

Mossberg crusier 20 Ga. with #3 buck has been protecting my home for the last 15+ years. I have no doubt it will get the job done if called apon to do so. Only thing on it is a light/laser light combo.

[Alfonse]

If you are staying with a pump, there is nothing so sweet as working an Ithaca Model 37.

I have others, Remington, Winchester, Mossberg. If there could be only one, the choice isn't even close. They point superbly and operate like buttered glass!

[melissa5]

That thing looks great, jeepster! I want to put some kind of fiber optic sights on mine.

[melissa5]

If you are staying with a pump, there is nothing so sweet as working an Ithaca Model 37.

I have others, Remington, Winchester, Mossberg. If there could be only one, the choice isn't even close. They point superbly and operate like buttered glass!


I'll definitely take a look at an Ithaca! ;)

[melissa5]

Since some of you guys are using a 20 gauge, I feel better about buying one. :cheer2:

[Popeye]

Mellisa. I doubt you'll be unhappy with a 20Ga. There lighter and stay on target better for a follow up shot should you need one. Chances are you won't ever need to though. There is alot of good info on the net on the 20Ga for HD.

[OldLincoln]

I have no doubt a 20 with #3 or 4 shot will get the job done. I would put an extension on it to carry as many rounds as the barrel is long. I grew up with an Ithica 20ga pump - the first gun I ever bought - and loved it. I gave it to my son as an early inheritance and he likes it also.

About a year ago I decided I need a shotgun for home so got the Mossi 500 short barrel with extension. I made a bed rack so it hangs on the side of the bed for the middle of the night surprise.

[TheTman]

I have a youth model 870 20 guage, makes a great home defense weapon, it's shorter stock and barrel makes it a lot handier to move through the house with. I think it has plenty of power for steel targets with the 3" magnum loads. I use 2 3/4 inch shells with #4 birdshot around the house, as it will hold more shells in the tube, and at house type range, those should do plenty of damage to anyone looking for trouble. I leave it with an empty chamber, so it's ready to rack and roll. 5 shots should discourage most people. If not, I have backups hidden here and there. Racking a shell into the chamber is not a sound a burgular wants to hear. It was supposed to be for my ex wife, but she buried it behind so much crap it would be no use in a situation, it took me qute awhile to dig it out of where she put it, so I took it back. She said she really didn't want it anyway. I pray she never regrets that decision.
Anyway, the recoil is very manageable, it's accurate, and should do the job. I have a lot of fun shooting clay pigeons with it.

[JFootin]

I'm looking seriously at the Mossberg SA-20 semi-auto (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=37&section=products). Click "MORE MODELS" once to see the one with the pistol grip.

[TheTman]

Wow, that is a cool shotgun J, I have a Mossberg 9200 semi, and it's been a very good gun, although I wished it sucked up more recoil, but it's still better than a pump. I was using it for Sporting Clays, but ended up switching to an O/U. It justs manuevers from target to target better.

[Popeye]

Some people really believe the 20 Ga is not a good HD shotgun.
I did a little test at the gun range shooting 2-3/4"Remington #3 buckshot. I used my 20 Ga. Mossberg Crusier which has a 18 1/2" barrel. Those not familiar with #3 buckshot fires at about 1250 fps and has 20 .25 lead pellets, weighing .053 oz per pellet. It's a round used for deer.
I set a target up at 7 yds. The reason I chose 7 yds(21 ft) is because 21 ft is a realistic unobstructed distance inside my home. The target was a target I printed out on the computer onto a 8 1/2' X 11 " piece of computer paper. Taking one shot 17 of those 20 pellets plus the shot cup hit and as expected ripped through the target and the heavy cardboard backer like it wasn't even there. 13 of those pellets were in a 7" area and the pellets about an 1/4" to an 1 1/2" aparts from one another. All the 20 pellets hit the 16" X24" cardboard backer with room to spare. I have shot other things such as mellons with #3 buck from the 20ga and it just destroys them at this distance This time I was just curious to see what the actual grouping was like. Anyone who believes a 20 Ga using #3 buck will not get the job done in a HD situation should try this out for themselves. It sure made me smile. Hell I wouldn't even want to get hit by the shot cup at the distance of 21 ft. Did I forget to mention shooting mellons with a shotgun will make you giggle like a teenage girl on a Pepsi high. (no offence Melissa)

[les strat]

In reality, even 20 ga is probably overkill for HD. It will get the job done for sure.

Melissa you were talking sights. I almost went with a fiber optic front bead, but decided for HD, the Mepro tritium front night sight bead was best for me considering if I ever have to use it, it will probably be in low light. I think it was $30.

The Remington is very similar in weight and other apects as the Mossy. I went with the Mossy because (besides shooting Mossys as kid), the newer Remingtons I have seen are not nearly the quality of those of old. I have seen finishes on Remington 870 Express' that get surface rust at the drop of a hat. They are notorious for it. And the wood spots for some reason when they water on them.

[melissa5]

In reality, even 20 ga is probably overkill for HD. It will get the job done for sure.

Melissa you were talking sights. I almost went with a fiber optic front bead, but decided for HD, the Mepro tritium front night sight bead was best for me considering if I ever have to use it, it will probably be in low light. I think it was $30.

The Remington is very similar in weight and other apects as the Mossy. I went with the Mossy because (besides shooting Mossys as kid), the newer Remingtons I have seen are not nearly the quality of those of old. I have seen finishes on Remington 870 Express' that get surface rust at the drop of a hat. They are notorious for it. And the wood spots for some reason when they water on them.

TruGlo makes a shotgun sight that is fiber and tritium. That would be the best of both worlds. Expensive though - $110 on their web site.

I have read that about rust on the new 870's. Would an older Wingmaster be a better choice since they are parkerized?

[Popeye]

For home use I went with just a LED light/laser light on the end of the tube. This way if I'm asleep and a bad guy enters my home all I have to do is touch the pressure switch both lights come on which blinds the BG right before he hears this loud bang and feels this severe pain in his torso.

[jeepster09]

What about Stoeger's Home Defense "side by side" in 20, it even comes with fiber optic sights.

[jeepster09]

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-double-defense.php



http://www.stoegerindustries.com/video/index.php?v=ca020134263341b49b36fee91fb0aadb

[Bawanna]

TruGlo makes a shotgun sight that is fiber and tritium. That would be the best of both worlds. Expensive though - $110 on their web site.

I have read that about rust on the new 870's. Would an older Wingmaster be a better choice since they are parkerized?

The Wingmaster is the opposite end of the food chain at Remington. It should hold up much nicer. I never seen one parkerized though.
Another option is to find a Police 870. Lots better beefier stuff inside.
I'm still partial to the Mossy's but the 870 is a tough shotgun, take a lot of abuse and keep going.

If your talking 20, I guess the LE wouldn't apply, don't think they make one.

[Scoundrel]

Wow, not a single mention of the KSG? :confused:

[jeepster09]

Wow, not a single mention of the KSG? :confused:


I will mention KSG.....it's a Kel Tec....nuff said.;)

[melissa5]

I rented a Remington 870 compact 20 gauge and shot a box of bird shot through it this morning. It made nice 2 inch holes at 7 yards. So, I went ahead and bought the one that my LGS had. Stopped by Wally World and picked up some buckshot, slugs, and shot shells to try out some time next week. I think I can make friends with this gun. :)

I researched some and found that there are some people using 20 gauges in matches and that 7 1/2 shot shells will knock down steel targets.

[JFootin]

I rented a Remington 870 compact 20 gauge and shot a box of bird shot through it this morning. It made nice 2 inch holes at 7 yards. So, I went ahead and bought the one that my LGS had. Stopped by Wally World and picked up some buckshot, slugs, and shot shells to try out some time next week. I think I can make friends with this gun. :)

I researched some and found that there are some people using 20 gauges in matches and that 7 1/2 shot shells will knock down steel targets.

Pics?

[melissa5]

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8311/photo6mb.jpg

[JFootin]

Very nice! How much?

[melissa5]

$310 + tax
Remington also has a $30 rebate for it through the end of the year. :D

[MikeyKahr]

Nice purchase, melissa. I know you will enjoy it. A 20 gauge shotgun is first in line for purchase. I may go semiauto though with the SA-20... If only cousin JFootin would by his already so I could borrow it and test it out.

[JFootin]

Nice purchase, melissa. I know you will enjoy it. A 20 gauge shotgun is first in line for purchase. I may go semiauto though with the SA-20... If only cousin JFootin would by his already so I could borrow it and test it out.

You may have to lead the way on the SA-20, cuz. I don't have the green right now.

[Popeye]

Very nice Melissa.

[jlottmc]

There are also recoil reducing stocks available as well. Personally, I find the 20ga shell to be too close to the 12ga and won't have a 20ga because I know me and mine, some one wouldn't read the box and we'd end up with a short range day (it's happened before, I bought a brick of 20ga that looked just like the 12ga brick right next to it), or worse. For straight competition use, the 20ga will be good to go, and would even serve well as a GP shotgun (that's how mine are). I prefer 12ga, but either will work well enough for most anything that needs doing with a shotgun. I would avoid mixing the gauges though, just seems like trouble waiting to happen. There's my .02, spend it however you like, it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Planedude]

The 20 gage is a great home defence shotty. The only place your going to start "giving it up" (knock down power) to 12 gage is at a range of 20 to 25 yards as the shot is begining to spread too much and at 7/8oz compaired to 1 1/8oz the density will be different. Now that said, at 25yds anyone you can't knock down will be hit with enough shot to make them want to stay at least that far away...

Then you go to your AR-15 and ruin the rest of their day! If a 20 gage is what you handel well, stay with the 20 honey.

[muggsy]

OK, so I've had a Mossberg 500 Tactical in 12 gauge (pistol grip, adjustable AR style stock) and I hated it. It was heavy and had a lot of recoil even with light loads. Sold it shortly after buying it. Now, I still need a shotun, but want one that I can make friends with. :hippie: What I'm thinking about is a Remington 870 Compact in 20 gauge. It has a 21" barrel and a shorter stock than a full size shotty. It actually feels good in my hands and weighs just 6 lbs. But, something in my brain keeps nagging at me to get a 12 gauge. There are more accessories and ammo choices for a 12 gauge. It's purpose will be for home defense and some tactical rifle/shotgun matches. I know it will shoot paper just fine, but I wonder about knock down steel targets. What do ya'll think?

This might be the solution to your problem.

http://mpcsports.com/ShotgunRecoilReducers.html

[jeepster09]

Or you can have one of these installed in your stock.....removes about 80% of all recoil.

http://www.edwardsrecoilreducer.com/


Ahlman's installs them:

http://www.ahlmans.com/shotgunalterations.html

[melissa5]

The 20 gage is a great home defence shotty. The only place your going to start "giving it up" (knock down power) to 12 gage is at a range of 20 to 25 yards as the shot is begining to spread too much and at 7/8oz compaired to 1 1/8oz the density will be different. Now that said, at 25yds anyone you can't knock down will be hit with enough shot to make them want to stay at least that far away...

Then you go to your AR-15 and ruin the rest of their day! If a 20 gage is what you handel well, stay with the 20 honey.

Honey....can you believe he called me honey? Where's Bawanna? LOL

I don't think I have a 25 yard stretch anywhere in my house, so I should be good to go. Right now, it's got a modified choke in it and will shoot 2 inch holes at 7 yards with birdshot. :D That's still too close for comfort. Could I put a different choke in it to keep the shot from spreading so much at longer distances?

[melissa5]

There are also recoil reducing stocks available as well. Personally, I find the 20ga shell to be too close to the 12ga and won't have a 20ga because I know me and mine, some one wouldn't read the box and we'd end up with a short range day (it's happened before, I bought a brick of 20ga that looked just like the 12ga brick right next to it), or worse. For straight competition use, the 20ga will be good to go, and would even serve well as a GP shotgun (that's how mine are). I prefer 12ga, but either will work well enough for most anything that needs doing with a shotgun. I would avoid mixing the gauges though, just seems like trouble waiting to happen. There's my .02, spend it however you like, it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

Good advice! Do they make 20 gauge in colors other than yellow? Surely they wouldn't make it in red. That WOULD be confusing.

[jlottmc]

Yes, they do and yes pink is one of those colors (aftermarket 870 at least).

[Bawanna]

Honey....can you believe he called me honey? Where's Bawanna? LOL

I don't think I have a 25 yard stretch anywhere in my house, so I should be good to go. Right now, it's got a modified choke in it and will shoot 2 inch holes at 7 yards with birdshot. :D That's still too close for comfort. Could I put a different choke in it to keep the shot from spreading so much at longer distances?

I'm here for you, you know that. Awaiting instructions.

You could put a full choke tube in there and tighten it some but 2" doesn't sound so bad to me. Gives you a little margin for error.

[Planedude]

Well, if you go to a full choke DO NOT shoot a slug thru it without checking the manufactures recomendations on chokes.
Remember a 7/8oz load of shot is acutally 383 grains and most are loaded at 1150/1300 FPS. Thats aprox 1225 lbs of energy at the muzzle. A full choke is going to work best and most safely with birdshot. A cylinder bore is needed for buckshot and slugs. Do not want to over pressure the BBL...
If you think about it as an energy transfer, you should be fine.

[Bawanna]

Good point Planedude, I totally dropped the ball in neglecting to address the slug. I never or seldom load slugs so not an issue for me but it certainly could be.

If Miss Melissa wants a tight meaningful group the slug might be the ticket too.

[Ljutic]

I recently decided to update the heavily modified 870 Express for something new. The FN SLP Police was just too hard to ignore. Got all my extras in from Elzetta and Midway over the last week so it's time to build and get this baby out to the range. Still not sure if I'll buy the tritium inserts for the ghost ring sights. I'm sure they would be cool to have, but I question the return on investment.

[les strat]

Nice score Melissa!

[melissa5]

Thanks les strat!

Good info about the choke! While in HD mode, I'll keep it loaded with #3 buck, but I'm not sure what I'll need for competition.

[340pd]

Nice gun. I got into this thread late but I think you got the right gun. I bought an old Winchester 1200 "riot gun" that was stored in a internal revenue office for a lot of years. $149.00 out the door. Just a 5 shot 18" pump but it makes that wonderful sound when you rack the gun.

I don't endorse this but it looks interesting and I think I will try it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/Win1200.jpg

[les strat]

Maybe I missed it.... is that a 20" barrel?

[melissa5]

Nice gun. I got into this thread late but I think you got the right gun. I bought an old Winchester 1200 "riot gun" that was stored in a internal revenue office for a lot of years. $149.00 out the door. Just a 5 shot 18" pump but it makes that wonderful sound when you rack the gun. I will try to add a pic later.

I don't endorse this but it looks interesting and I think I will try it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

Very nice gun at a nice price, 340pd. :)

Thanks for the video. I wonder if the cut shell could damage the gun?

[melissa5]

Maybe I missed it.... is that a 20" barrel?

It's a 21" barrel.

[jlottmc]

Cut shells work best in breech breaks, but they shouldn't do any damage if you treat them like a slug.

[les strat]

nice gun. I got into this thread late but i think you got the right gun. I bought an old winchester 1200 "riot gun" that was stored in a internal revenue office for a lot of years. $149.00 out the door. Just a 5 shot 18" pump but it makes that wonderful sound when you rack the gun.

I don't endorse this but it looks interesting and i think i will try it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3m46xvfvou

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/win1200.jpg


NICE shotty!!!

[Bawanna]

Nice gun. I got into this thread late but I think you got the right gun. I bought an old Winchester 1200 "riot gun" that was stored in a internal revenue office for a lot of years. $149.00 out the door. Just a 5 shot 18" pump but it makes that wonderful sound when you rack the gun.

I don't endorse this but it looks interesting and I think I will try it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/Win1200.jpg

Kind of depends on which end of the riot gun your on as to weather it's a wonderful sound or not. I like the sound, guess I've always been on the right end. Am I lucky or what?

[Planedude]

Cut shells are a hoot but the cut base may not eject correctlly from a pump gun and forget about function in an automatic...
You can also find folks pouring hot wax into the shot cup making a 330+ grain glazer slug. I would personaly shoot these "novelty slugs" only in a breach loader like the Stoger Defence Double, as linked in an earlier post.
And if you want to keep the sight simple and effective XS sights has a epoxy on front bead for just $60. KISS all the way...
http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nID=sights&cID=Sights&pID=sights&sID=shotgun

And waxed shotshells
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWWqXVbAfA&feature=relmfu

[melissa5]

And if you want to keep the sight simple and effective XS sights has a epoxy on front bead for just $60. KISS all the way...
http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nID=sights&cID=Sights&pID=sights&sID=shotgun




Thanks! I like those sights. I wish the white part was fiber optic though.