Slingshot or Slide Lock - nosedives

[c6vetter]

New cm9, 300 RDs through it. Last 60 RDs had 4 nosedives. Called British Ian in Kahr cust Svc who said this was normal failure rate. I disagreed for EDC CCW. Called later and spoke with Ian Burr ... Great guy who referred me to pg 16 where it says you can't slingshot the first round, you must use slide lock, insert mag, then release to chamber first round.

Do you guys do this??? My Glocks and Sigs are flawless slingshoting and I don't have to walk around with a round chambered.

Also read sticky on mag prep and all 3 of my 6 rounders were catching to some degree on the mag release tab.

So, what's your experience? I am not impressed thus far.

[APSKahr]

There is a technique to sling shotting and I think most get away with sloppy technique with larger guns that don't have such constricted action parts. Mine works fine with ball and Gold Dots but did not sling shot load 147gr HSTs reliably. As he mentioned, the manual says not to sling shot, so if it works fine with a slide lock release, you should be good to go. None of my 4 mags will drop free. A couple of things that you put up with to have such a small and accurate pistol I guess.

[ripley16]

Welcome to the forum. After reading your statement "and I don't have to walk around with a loaded weapon", I'd suggest you bought the wrong gun for concealed carry. Carrying your Kahr without a round in the chamber puts you at a disadvantage considering the recommended method to load a Kahr is with the slide release. Perhaps you'd be better off with a different brand. The Kahr design is not conducive to your style.

"Do you guys do this??? "
Yes, but most people carry their gun loaded. I do sling-shot the slide when I shoot, but I only own the larger Kahrs which seem to be more reliable in this respect. When I do so, I am quite aggressive and use a vigorous motion. That seems to work. Any lessening of the slide speed leads to misfeeds.

[340pd]

You will be fine with this gun. In the Kahr-Tech section of these forums this has been discussed many times. This worked for ME.

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943 and watch the Youtube video to see how it works.
I started at post #11 and tried it on one of my followers. I did not sand the top of my followers, just slightly lengthened (the transition photo) the groove in my follower. I used a pencil and some 600 grit sandpaper. I took off half of what the post said, put the mag back together and it was perfect. I can close my slide slingshot, slide stop, or slowly by hand with zero issues.
I have done this to all three of my mags and I have yet to have a failure of any kind with my PM9

[kerby9mm]

I have 2 mk Kahrs and they both load from slingshot or ridind the slide. The trouble seems to be with the poly guns which is interesting as to why they have problems. IMO I would carry a revolver before I would carry a semi auto chamber empty.

[jmonte345]

I'm having nose dive issue too and the more I think about it the more annoyed I become. I think having to use the slide release to load the weapon is an issue.

In my last pistol training class the instructor said that in a high stress situation you lose your fine motor skills and will not be able to manipulate a slide release. That's very concerning to me since that basically makes my Kahr a club after the first magazine.

Also, I find it unsettling that I have to modify the followers to get my gun to function reliably. I really want to like this gun but at this point I'm having some buyers remorse.

[APSKahr]

In my last pistol training class the instructor said that in a high stress situation you lose your fine motor skills and will not be able to manipulate a slide release. That's very concerning to me since that basically makes my Kahr a club after the first magazine.

I used to follow that line of thinking religiously until someone pointed out the obvious. You're needing to release the slide because you've just reloaded a new magazine right? You ejected that magazine with your thumb successfully, right? That magazine release button is smaller than the slide stop. So, you had the fine motor control to release the magazine, but somewhere in the 2 seconds since, you've lost the fine motor control and won't be able to depress the larger slide release?

Regarding modifying mag followers, I'm not sure it's really needed. I have 4 mags, 2 modified and 2 not, and they all work ok. The Kahr pistol, by design of its compactness, is less tolerant of a "slackness" in operator control. Gotta hold the gun tight when shooting and rack the slide like you're hate it.

[jmonte345]

I used to follow that line of thinking religiously until someone pointed out the obvious. You're needing to release the slide because you've just reloaded a new magazine right? You ejected that magazine with your thumb successfully, right? That magazine release button is smaller than the slide stop. So, you had the fine motor control to release the magazine, but somewhere in the 2 seconds since, you've lost the fine motor control and won't be able to depress the larger slide release?

That's a very good point. Manipulating the mag release hadn't crossed my mind.

[FLBri]

It seems ridiculous, to me, that an instructor would claim that you can't manipulate a slide release under stress. That would be equivalent to writing off every semi auto that locks back on an empty mag as a one mag wonder if in a self defense scenario.

How is that different than the safety on a 1911, or, as mentioned previously, the mag release itself. For all these cases it is the reason we practice and trane ... to develop muscle memory ... so it becomes NOT stressful to operate the weapon as intended if, and when, needed.

Seems somewhat irresponsible of a comment.

[TucsonMTB]

I feel for you guys. I was there once myself. :o

However, once you modify all your followers to avoid the magazine catch "catching" the edge of the follower at the second or third round and then modify the top of all your followers so that the angle in the front is a little more upward and support of the round is more toward the front . . . and shoot a few hundred trouble free rounds . . . it will all just be an old memory of a bad dream. Honestly.

I have a couple of PM40's that now work perfectly, even riding the slide a bit during the sling shot move. No nose dives. Life is good.

Notice that in the picture of a new follower (left) and a modified follower (right) that getting aggressive while sanding the top was the key to success for me.

http://viewsfromtucson.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/6-Three-Qtr-View.jpg
Best of luck! :D

[Stides]

I used to follow that line of thinking religiously until someone pointed out the obvious. You're needing to release the slide because you've just reloaded a new magazine right? You ejected that magazine with your thumb successfully, right? That magazine release button is smaller than the slide stop. So, you had the fine motor control to release the magazine, but somewhere in the 2 seconds since, you've lost the fine motor control and won't be able to depress the larger slide release?

Regarding modifying mag followers, I'm not sure it's really needed. I have 4 mags, 2 modified and 2 not, and they all work ok. The Kahr pistol, by design of its compactness, is less tolerant of a "slackness" in operator control. Gotta hold the gun tight when shooting and rack the slide like you're hate it.

I have to agree. I never toally bought the gross motor skill vs. fine motor skill argument. Swiping the slide release lever with your thumb is not so much more of a fine motor skill as gripping the slide and properly slingshoting it. In fact, it could be argued that using the side stop lever is easier to do in a correct and consistent manner than racking the slide. I have a new CM9 and have had no issues with my first 150 rounds. However, I noticed that getting the first round to feed with a slingshot is very very tough. I noticed that even FMJ round do slightly contact the inside of the slide stop lever as they come up to be def. It runs flawlessly with using the slide stop lever to chamber a round though. As I get more rounds through the gun I will see if the slingshot method improves. If not, I may give sanding the follower a try. I see that it has been discussed at length on these forums. As a new Kahr owner, I cannot understand why there could not be a slight modification to the follower by Kahr. Seems like a very easy fix. Could they just be that stubborn?

[APSKahr]

Agreed, Stides. I think alot of folks do not properly sling shot the slide and using the slide release is more consistent.

Regarding your feeding issue... I had to slightly file away at the slide stop to keep Gold Dots from activating it when they came up the magazine to be fed into the chamber. Now, no problems with Gold Dots and I can sling shot them as well.

[APSKahr]

It seems ridiculous, to me, that an instructor would claim that you can't manipulate a slide release under stress. That would be equivalent to writing off every semi auto that locks back on an empty mag as a one mag wonder if in a self defense scenario.

How is that different than the safety on a 1911, or, as mentioned previously, the mag release itself. For all these cases it is the reason we practice and trane ... to develop muscle memory ... so it becomes NOT stressful to operate the weapon as intended if, and when, needed.

Seems somewhat irresponsible of a comment.

The gun doesn't become a one mag wonder... the instructors are trying to teach the overhand slingshot method to release the slide. Trying to keep slide release after mag change AND tap-rack-bang malf clearance the same motion. But yeah, if you practice enough hitting the slide release with firing thumb or even weak hand thumb after mag insertion should be easier, and faster.

[O'Dell]

I'm having nose dive issue too and the more I think about it the more annoyed I become. I think having to use the slide release to load the weapon is an issue.

In my last pistol training class the instructor said that in a high stress situation you lose your fine motor skills and will not be able to manipulate a slide release. That's very concerning to me since that basically makes my Kahr a club after the first magazine.

Also, I find it unsettling that I have to modify the followers to get my gun to function reliably. I really want to like this gun but at this point I'm having some buyers remorse.

I have had seven Kahrs, and as I recall all have worked using the slingshot method. However, others have had a different experience. I suppose their pistols were a bit tighter than mine when new. At any rate, when you get a few hundred rounds through it and it loosens up, it should work to your satisfaction. I also don't understand the instructors statement. You should already have a round in the chamber, and it would only become an issue when you needed a new magazine, and since the slide is locked open, it would be natural to use the release. By then, the fights going to be over anyway, unless you're in a war.

[c6vetter]

Guys, thanks a lot. I took the advice on the followers and for safety's sake, ordered 3 new Wolfe springs (+5%) for the 6rd mags. Also ordered a 20.5# recoil spring to try once I determine whether the feeding issue is solved. I agree with what many have said ... Kahr CS knows this is an issue but will not "upgrade" magazines until liability of loss of sales forces them to. It's horrible support. I know they recently brought in a new lead for their Customer Service ... this poor SOB will have his hands full.

I plan to put 100 rds through this thing & if all feed, it's a keeper. If there is 1 FTF, it's on its way back to Kahr for gunsmithing prior to sale for a Sig P239 that I should have started with!:mad:

[c6vetter]

I have had seven Kahrs, and as I recall all have worked using the slingshot method. However, others have had a different experience. I suppose their pistols were a bit tighter than mine when new. At any rate, when you get a few hundred rounds through it and it loosens up, it should work to your satisfaction. I also don't understand the instructors statement. You should already have a round in the chamber, and it would only become an issue when you needed a new magazine, and since the slide is locked open, it would be natural to use the release. By then, the fights going to be over anyway, unless you're in a war.

O'Dell, me likes your avatar! Guess what I drive???!!! Save the wave, bro! :biggrin1:

[O'Dell]

O'Dell, me likes your avatar! Guess what I drive???!!! Save the wave, bro! :biggrin1:

Thanks. The yellow one's a six speed 2004 C5 with nearly all the options including the Z51 competition suspension package. The red's a fully optioned 2009 six-speed auto.

[yqtszhj]

Yep, What O'dell said and I also think he has a thing for Corvettes which isn't a bad thing.

I like 4x4 off road escape the urban jungle version of vehicle's myself but with the Corvettes you can outrun a lot of things so you don't need off road. They get better gas mileage than my truck too :)

[CrabbyAzz]

I have to agree that most people do not know how to rack a slide properly. On several occasions at the range people want to try my cm9. On every occasionn they jam up the gun slinsgshotting. But I never have a problem slingshotting. They just don't pull it back far enough and let it fly.

Also, why the reluctance to keep one in the chamber. It's what the gun was made for.

[340pd]

I feel for you guys. I was there once myself. :o

However, once you modify all your followers to avoid the magazine catch "catching" the edge of the follower at the second or third round and then modify the top of all your followers so that the angle in the front is a little more upward and support of the round is more toward the front . . . and shoot a few hundred trouble free rounds . . . it will all just be an old memory of a bad dream. Honestly.

I have a couple of PM40's that now work perfectly, even riding the slide a bit during the sling shot move. No nose dives. Life is good.

Notice that in the picture of a new follower (left) and a modified follower (right) that getting aggressive while sanding the top was the key to success for me.

http://viewsfromtucson.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/6-Three-Qtr-View.jpg
Best of luck! :D

I think Kahr wants you to use the slide release lever to insure it is done the same every time and the likelihood of a jam is diminished.
I wanted to be able to load by very slowly and quietly riding the slide forward by hand. My stock PM9 would let me slingshot it but if I slowly racked it home it would hang up. I do not want a gun that will hang up EVER. The follower mod in the above pics solved my issues.
The YouTube video made a believer out of me. I do not know if followers are available for sale but if you have bad results a new mag is not the end of the world.

To all that think they can carry without a round in the chamber, you are faster than me. Gloves, sweaty, wet hands do happen. The last thing I want to do is rely on racking to load my gun if a threat is coming at me.

[les strat]

I have no problem slingshotting a round and do so most of the time. Once they are broken in, it's no problem.

My advice is always carry hot and in a safe holster. An unchambered pistol is a very dangerous thing to pull out on a BG. You just will not have time to rack, and if you do, you should just get the heck out of Dodge. It can get you killed.