Improvement for our long, out of state, motorcycle trips gun

[jg rider]

I hope this is of interest to all the revolver carriers here that are thinking of converting to F.O. front sights if possible.

When traveling out of state we take this S&W mod. 66 with us. There's several reasons why we take this gun along instead of a more expensive one. but I won't get into that.

I previously reworked this gun for timing/accuracy and it has a smooth as glass, measured 7-8 lb. D.A. trigger pull. You can pull back with just your index finger nail to fire it D.A. Enough with the bragging!

Lately I've converted most of our handguns to F.O. front sights. I think all are by Hi-Viz.

This one is still a work in progress.
The gun originally had a custom .230" tall iron front sight. And a standard .146" rear sight blade. The rear was turned up two full turns from bottom for 18 yrd. POA/POI hits.

Original sight
6189

6190

6191

I ordered a Hi-Viz sight for this K frame. This sight measures .269" tall. When I installed it, I discovered that I had to crank up the rear sight so high that the rear of the sight base tang was out of the top strap groove. So I tried a higher .160" sight blade, that wasn't much help.
So I called Hi-Viz and was told that the .269" tall sight is what S&W wanted for all the guns they sell with F.O. sights. Then I called S&W and was told that this sight wasn't meant for K frames.

K frame F.O. & .146" rear sight
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6193

[jg rider]

More pics

K frame F.O. sight & .146" rear sight
6194

I had also ordered a Hi-Viz sight for my J frame 342 S&W Ti. That sight measures .150" tall. So for fun I tried that sight on the 66, it fits like a glove. With the stock .146" sight blade bottomed out the hits were about 6" high. So I replaced the sight blade with a lower .126" blade. Now it shoots POA/POI. But I don't know if I like the short rear sight. I may look into a V notch blade.

The other difference between the Hi-Viz K frame and the J frame sights is that the J frame one is shorter, but I think is more esthetically pleasing. The down side is since it's shorter it doesn't pull in as much light.

J frame F.O. sight & .126" rear sight
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Hi-Viz is sending me another sight that is made for the .22 S&W mod. 617. This one measures .165" tall. If my math is right, the mod. 617 sight is .015" taller than the J frame one. And if I put back the standard .146" sight blade, that makes it .020" taller than the .126" blade. So there's only .005" to account for.

So did I confuse everybody?

Things that may be of interest: The shortest F.O. sight for K frames I found was .350" the tallest was .395". There are 3 choices for S&W rear sight blades, .126", .146" & .160

[jg rider]

Well I finlly got what I wanted done. Broke out my favorite hammers and chisels, LOL. I took the originally purchased .269" F.O. front sight and filed down the bottom until I got a .230" height, measured from the the top of the sight rib to the top of the sight. With the standard .146" rear sight blade, with 1 1/2 turns up from bottom the POA / POI was where I wanted it to be. Now with this combo I can hit a 6" plate out at 25 yds. But IMO, for a 2 1/2" gun 18 yds. is adequate. At 18 yds. I tested .357 Fed. 158 gr. +P Hydra Shoks, .38 Fed. 129 gr. +P Hydra Shoks, my cast 150 gr. SWC in both .38 and .357 loads. all the hits were on my 6" plate

Unfortunately since I had drilled a cross pin hole through the sight before filing, couldn't use this one. So I called Hi-Viz and told them what I came up with. They were kind enough to send me a new front sight for the K frame.

Finished K frame
6214


I also install a Hi-Viz F.O. sight on my 342 Ti. That one is exactly where I wanted it to be. I just need some trigger time with this gun to stop the pulling left.
With the bottom of the rod sitting even with the top of the rear sight notch, or the bottom of the sight base sitting at the bottom the sight notch, as I believe the J frame were designed to be fired with the old 158 gr. SWC police factory load, it's right on for a POA / POI on a 6" steel plate at 15 yds.
I fired 9 shots, 3 Fed 125 gr. Nyclads, 3 Fed. 129 gr. +P Hydra Shok, and 3 of my cast 150 gr. SWC. All the hits were on target. This is a .38 spl. or + P gun only

Finished J frame
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Sight picture
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9 hits on a 6" plate at 15 yds.
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[jg rider]

Awesome S&W 342 AirLight Ti especially with the fiber optic front sight! That gun has been on my wish list forever. :rolleyes:

Easy to carry but they hurt to shoot with the factory boot grip. There's a flute that runs the outside length of trigger guard that beats up the top of your middle finger down to the bone from recoil, and there's no cushioning on the back strap. The grip pictured is one that I modified from another set that are shaped like a banana. I think I wrote a how to on them.

[TheTman]

On bike trips, I like to carry my Charter Arms .44 snubbie, with a pair of speed loaders in a case built for 2 of them. It rides in the saddle bag until time to eat, then slips down IWB with the Barami Hip Grips hooked on my belt. I like carrying a revolver on the bike for some reason instead of a semi, I guess I feel there is less to vibrate loose. Thats probably stupid, because I see our Highway Patrol on their Harleys with their Glocks (I presume) on their duty belt.
I was always worried about breaking down somewhere, and having some clubbers come by in a pickup and decide they wanted my bike, so I got that for defense. It's been all over the place, but has never been put to the test, and I'm very thankful for that. It's surprisingly accurate for a 2.5" barrel .44 special. Jeff Quinn tested one years ago and raved about how accurate it was.

[jg rider]

On bike trips, I like to carry my Charter Arms .44 snubbie, with a pair of speed loaders in a case built for 2 of them. It rides in the saddle bag until time to eat, then slips down IWB with the Barami Hip Grips hooked on my belt. I like carrying a revolver on the bike for some reason instead of a semi, I guess I feel there is less to vibrate loose. Thats probably stupid, because I see our Highway Patrol on their Harleys with their Glocks (I presume) on their duty belt.
I was always worried about breaking down somewhere, and having some clubbers come by in a pickup and decide they wanted my bike, so I got that for defense. It's been all over the place, but has never been put to the test, and I'm very thankful for that. It's surprisingly accurate for a 2.5" barrel .44 special. Jeff Quinn tested one years ago and raved about how accurate it was.

Years back our strategy was that if I had to loose a handgun while out of state, I wanted it to be something affordable to replace. But now that S&W discontinued the K frame model, and not so available we've been rethinking our strategy.
I've be thinking about an affordable .357 Charter arms for out of state trips.
Back in the 70s the wife's first concealed carry gun for work and play was a .38 snubbie Charter Arms. It was reliable little gun not like the he brands that were coming out of South America or Spain.

[JFootin]

Well, Tom, what gun has Jeff Quinn ever reviewed that he didn't rave about? :001_tt2:

I can't ride a Harley, but I can drive my Hyundai around these curvy mountain roads pretty well. I have found a carry method that I really like using my S&W 638 Airweight...
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Miscellanious%20Guns%20and%20Holsters/My638-1.jpg
This gun is Duracoated Gloss Black, ported and has an enhanced trigger with a 4.25 lb DA pull. I have found this gun will ride comfortably all day long in a Stays-Put Ultra (http://www.concealmentspecialties.com/products.html) pocket holster inserted behind my waistband at about 10:30 (AIWB position for a lefty).
http://www.concealmentspecialties.com/images/holster_j-frame_model3.jpg
I put it deep down with a backward cant, with the top front edge of the holster about 1/2" above my waistband and the Hogue Bantam grip laying down horizontally just above the waistband. I mount a cell phone holster on my belt just behind the grip so that, under an untucked shirt, the only thing that prints is the cell phone. My middle aged spread expands above the gun, helping to hide it. Surprisingly, it stays put there all day long without shifting and having to be adjusted.

It is so easy and quick to draw from that location, with the backward cant helping. I can draw without sticking my elbow out like when I draw from behind the hip. And I love that it is just as easy to draw when seated as it is when standing. I can also draw easily in my car with my seatbelt buckled. (Sorry. That won't work for righties because of the shoulder strap. :rolleyes:)

You know, I think this carry method would work real well riding a motor. The Stays-Put Ultra (http://www.concealmentspecialties.com/products.html) (and maybe a little middle aged spread :p) is key to making it work. And something about the shape of the J-frame works there better than a semi-auto.

[jg rider]

I would be interested to see your "how to". How bad is it with normal pressure, 158 grain loads?

I haven't purchased one yet, but am thinking the stuff pictured below (non +P SJHP from Aguila) might be an "OK" load. I like to practice with what I carry and I could afford these. :rolleyes:



Because of the fluted trigger guard, for us, and we shoot a lot it would mostly hurt the top of our middle finger where it hit the guard. I mean actually bruise the finger bone. And it could hurt for days.
The other issue was that the boot grip was to small for a solid grip with no cushioning at the back strap.
I think the last issue was with my grip, speed loaders were easier to insert.

The grip is sold by Butler Creek, or Uncle Mikes
The pics should be self explanatory. Since there's a steel insert in each panels, the inserts show at the bottom. I just blued them.
I used a hack saw to cut below the bottom partition.
The curve at the top front of the grip protects the middle finger

[jg rider]

The last pic
6224

As far as our choice of ammo for this gun, I would recommend loking for some Fed. 125gr. Nyclad. Hard to find but out there. They have the mildest felt recoil of all I tested and 100% reliable

[jg rider]

Well, Tom, what gun has Jeff Quinn ever reviewed that he didn't rave about? Exuse my ignorance. Who is Jeff Quinn?


This gun is Duracoated Gloss Black, ported and has an enhanced trigger with a 4.25 lb DA pull.I'd really like to know how your smith got that trigger pull down to 4.25 lb. The above pictured mod 66 K frame has a measured 7 lb D.A. pull without any misfires.
The pictured Ti. J frame has a 9 lb. smooth as glass pull with no reshaping. For a non atrophied hand I found that the shorter J frame pull needed some resistance to act as support to help stay on target.
But I'm always willing to learn something different.
Do you know what your smith exactly did to get down that low? If not could you ask him?


I have found this gun will ride comfortably all day long in a Stays-Put Ultra (http://www.concealmentspecialties.com/products.html) pocket holster inserted behind my waistband at about 10:30 (AIWB position for a lefty).
http://www.concealmentspecialties.com/images/holster_j-frame_model3.jpg
I put it deep down with a backward cant, with the top front edge of the holster about 1/2" above my waistband and the Hogue Bantam grip laying down horizontally just above the waistband. I mount a cell phone holster on my belt just behind the grip so that, under an untucked shirt, the only thing that prints is the cell phone. My middle aged spread expands above the gun, helping to hide it. Surprisingly, it stays put there all day long without shifting and having to be adjusted.Is this a pocket holster that you're using inside your waistband?

Thanx, John

[JFootin]

Exuse my ignorance. Who is Jeff Quinn?

Jeff is a well known gun reviewer with a strange beard who has a reputation for never having anything but rave reviews for every gun he tests. Lots of good information and pictures, though.
http://www.gunblast.com/


I'd really like to know how your smith got that trigger pull down to 4.25 lb. The above pictured mod 66 K frame has a measured 7 lb D.A. pull without any misfires.
The pictured Ti. J frame has a 9 lb. smooth as glass pull with no reshaping. For a non atrophied hand I found that the shorter J frame pull needed some resistance to act as support to help stay on target.
But I'm always willing to learn something different.
Do you know what your smith exactly did to get down that low? If not could you ask him?

Well, I have very crippled, substantially paralyzed hands. So I needed something pretty light so it would work like 7-8 lb would for a normal hand. I sent the gun to a gunsmith who polished parts for 3 hours (though it was already very smooth from the factory), then started trying lighter springs from a spring kit. Got misfires, so put the original springs back in and sent it back to me with the same 11 lb pull it had from the factory! I had to use both of my trigger fingers to pull it! Tried to charge me $65, but I insisted on a refund. They didn't refund the $10.95 for the spring kit and didn't send it with the gun, though. :mad:

This spurred me to renew my search for a good local gunsmith. (The gun stores and shooting range won't tell me because they want to charge me double what the smiths charge them for any work requested through them! :mad:) But I found a great one! He does a whole lot of the smith work for the local gun stores, as well as having a large number of loyal customers for whom he does great work at great prices! :) Only thing is it takes about 6 weeks turnaround time because he is so popular and it is his second job.

He found no need for any more polishing. He started removing a coil at a time from the hammer spring and the trigger return spring, measuring the pull and test firing for proper ignition until he got it that way. This guy is a real gunsmith, not just a polisher and parts swapper. And, boy, do I now love this gun!!! :D


Is this a pocket holster that you're using inside your waistband?

Thanx, John

Yes. It has no belt loop or clip. But the design feature that makes it stay put in your pocket also works under belt tension to keep it positioned AIWB. This can be done with any of the non-leather pocket holsters. Most makers don't say so, but Remora and Sticky do. You will see quite a few mentions of them in posts around here. IMO, they are too thick and too sticky. (I tried a Remora. Got a refund.) I love my customized J-frame and I love this carry method! :D:D:D

John

[jg rider]

[QUOTE
He found no need for any more polishing. He started removing a coil at a time from the hammer spring and the trigger return spring, measuring the pull and test firing for proper ignition until he got it that way. This guy is a real gunsmith, not just a polisher and parts swapper. And, boy, do I now love this gun!!! :D
John[/QUOTE]

OK, I think I know what he did. I just realizedthat your gun is hammerless. He could play with the springs all he wanted until misfires occurred. There was no concern of single action mode, hammer push off because of a too light main/hammer spring.

[TheTman]

You have a point there J, he doesn't badmouth a gun at all.

My Charter Arms .44 did have to go back to the factory once, the cylinder moved away from the firing pin and was getting light strikes, they fixed it and it's been reliable every since. I think of it as a carry a lot, shoot once in awhile gun, not sure it's a 30,000 round pistol. But the price was very reasonable.

[Bawanna]

[QUOTE
He found no need for any more polishing. He started removing a coil at a time from the hammer spring and the trigger return spring, measuring the pull and test firing for proper ignition until he got it that way. This guy is a real gunsmith, not just a polisher and parts swapper. And, boy, do I now love this gun!!! :D
John

OK, I think I know what he did. I just realizedthat your gun is hammerless. He could play with the springs all he wanted until misfires occurred. There was no concern of single action mode, hammer push off because of a too light main/hammer spring.[/QUOTE]

There should be some concern because it actually does have a hammer, it's just shrouded. Jfooting actually had them machine away part of the frame for more positive engagement of the hammer. My wife has the same gun and like me if there's a hammer she wants to pull it single action. I told her no way on this thing. It's tough for me to insure it not getting away if I try to let it down. I try to release the trigger as soon as the hammer starts forward so it won't fire if it gets away.

I'd like to lighten it up some but she does remarkably well with it and has started carrying it with some lovely Altamont grips that Jfootin so graciously sent us. I'm happy she's carrying it. I deliberately just put it on the table at her request and left a box of nyclads which she shot well with at practice next to it.

Unobtrusively watched her check and load it and secure it. Made me right proud it did.

[jg rider]

OK, I think I know what he did. I just realizedthat your gun is hammerless. He could play with the springs all he wanted until misfires occurred. There was no concern of single action mode, hammer push off because of a too light main/hammer spring.

There should be some concern because it actually does have a hammer, it's just shrouded. Jfooting actually had them machine away part of the frame for more positive engagement of the hammer. My wife has the same gun and like me if there's a hammer she wants to pull it single action. I told her no way on this thing. It's tough for me to insure it not getting away if I try to let it down. I try to release the trigger as soon as the hammer starts forward so it won't fire if it gets away.

I'd like to lighten it up some but she does remarkably well with it and has started carrying it with some lovely Altamont grips that Jfootin so graciously sent us. I'm happy she's carrying it. I deliberately just put it on the table at her request and left a box of nyclads which she shot well with at practice next to it.

Unobtrusively watched her check and load it and secure it. Made me right proud it did.[/QUOTE]

Bawanna,
Push off is a condition cause by on of two thing
1- Some one polished the hump of the trigger that goes under the D.A. sear when starting a D.A. pull. They went to far forward forward and polished the tip of the hump which is the S.A. sear hat engages the hammer hook for S.A. mode.

2- Too light of a main/hammer spring which doesn't apply enough pressure against the hammer hook and S.A. sear. The hammer would still probably stay cocked. But it only takes about a 1-2 lb. pull to drop it.

My mod. 66 only needs 1 3/4 lbs. I wish it were heavier. I've toyed with the idea of removing the S.A. mode from this hammer.

The test for push off is to cock the hammer then apply forward thumb pressure against the hammer spur. The hammer should not release. I seem to remember that the S&W standard was that about 12 lb. or more pressure before push off was acceptable. I don't want any push off.

My procedure for a lighter D.A. pull is to reshape the rebound slide, and the hammer block, or you can leave out the block. Then start cutting coils off the trigger spring.
I use two springs, one to get to where the trigger just starts not to return. and the other is the finished product.

With this method I can remove more coils then what is normal with a factory shaped rebound slide.

[Bawanna]

I don't have any issue with push off, its near new, totally unmessed with. My issue is holding on to the little nub of a hammer as it starts forward as in your gonna take a single action shot and then change your mind.

The hammer has enough forward pressure that it can easily get away from you if you don't have a good thumb on it.

I just figure it for a DA only for now.

[JFootin]

OK, I think I know what he did. I just realizedthat your gun is hammerless. He could play with the springs all he wanted until misfires occurred. There was no concern of single action mode, hammer push off because of a too light main/hammer spring.[/QUOTE]

No, the 638 has a shielded hammer. SA now is feather touch. In other words, finger out of the trigger guard until pointed in the right direction and ready to fire.

[JFootin]

OK, I think I know what he did. I just realizedthat your gun is hammerless. He could play with the springs all he wanted until misfires occurred. There was no concern of single action mode, hammer push off because of a too light main/hammer spring.

No, the 638 has a shielded hammer. SA now is feather touch. In other words, finger out of the trigger guard until pointed in the right direction and ready to fire.

Edit: I just wanted to note that SA was pretty nice from the factory. Just the slightest movement of the trigger to fire it. But the polishing and spring lightening made it almost ridiculous. I bet it will make this 1 7/8" barrel gun surprisingly accurate at longer distances. I haven't had a chance to range test it, yet. Of course, self defense will be DA. And for my crippled hands, the 4.25 lb pull works like 7-8 lb for most people. It still has the long trigger pull like a Kahr. So, it's safe for me to handle.

[jg rider]

I don't have any issue with push off, its near new, totally unmessed with. My issue is holding on to the little nub of a hammer as it starts forward as in your gonna take a single action shot and then change your mind.

The hammer has enough forward pressure that it can easily get away from you if you don't have a good thumb on it.

I just figure it for a DA only for now.

DUH! Now I undertstand