I'll carry my real gun, but hide those air guns. The Guvs comin.

[Chief Joseph]

Oregon Store Out $12K After Toy Guns Seized - Portland News Story - KPTV Portland (http://www.kptv.com/news/22714377/detail.html)

Ya, lets all defer good judgment to the government. This is the reason government needs to be restricted by citizen rule. There is just no common sense.

[TheSorb]

Unbe-friggin'-lievable!!!:32:

[getsome]

Good thing they didn't have any Airsoft AR rifles at Waco or the ATF would have nuked the place!!!.....:crazy:

[tv_racin_fan]

Did you do any investigation on these things? Seems that the plastic lowers without serial numbers can easily be converted to AR lowers that function.

[Chief Joseph]

I seriously doubt that an airsoft gun was made to stand the pressures of a real round. And from all I've heard, no ones getting a chance to review it, they are destroying them without due process. You have to wonder why they're in such a hurry to destroy them.

[tv_racin_fan]

Chief uum it isn't the total firearm it is only the lower that is the issue. You do understand that you can order all of the rest of the parts online and have them delivered to your house don't you? Have you tried to order a lower and have it shipped directly to your house?

[Chief Joseph]

Um, NO that's not the issue. Here's some links, judge for yourself. Notice the part about it EXPLODING if attempting. Also notice upon request for the documentation on their proof of the conversion they were told they'd have to file a FREEDOM OF INFORMATION request. If it was that simple, why hide it. This stinks to the high heaven.

Brad Martin on Alex Jones TV: ATF’s “Illegal” Seizure of Airsoft Outlet NW’s BB Guns Merchandise (http://www.prisonplanet.com/brad-martin-on-alex-jones-tv-atfs-illegal-seizure-of-airsoft-outlet-nws-bb-guns-merchandise.html)

http://airsoftoutletnw.com/

[tv_racin_fan]

HELLO the lowers can and are being made of PLASTIC. NOTICE I SAID LOWER the lower does not EXPLODE when a round is fired.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/29/cav-15-polymer-ar-15-lower-recievers-back-in-production/

Gun Parts - Eagle Arms M15P All Plastic Lower for AR-15 223 - Auction: 9564468 (Ended 02/10/2010, 15:47:32 PST) (http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9564468&oh=671470)

[Chief Joseph]

It's obvious you WANT to take the atf side, but if you go to their website and read the comments below, you will gain some ACTUAL info of what's going on. In particular this is one comment.

http://airsoftoutletnw.com/

Ben Martin 2010-02-25 14:22
we've had gunsmiths try to make a WE TTI lower work with a real steel upper, and it is true that a AR trigger pack will sit in a WE lower, but the trigger mechanism is inoperable with the WE lower unless you heavily modify the body. these are not readily convertible as per customs argument.

Either way you want to look at it, it's still an overreacting, over reaching government agency. I suggest you spend some time on their web site, there are many people posting there from all over the country with a lot of expertise with these. The gist is you could do it,, but you'd need pretty much need to modify ALL the parts and not just the lowers.

[tv_racin_fan]

All I know is these LOWERS don't have serial numbers AND they can be made to work with real AR parts and turned into real actual working AR's.

"Ben Martin 2010-02-25 14:22
we've had gunsmiths try to make a WE TTI lower work with a real steel upper, and it is true that a AR trigger pack will sit in a WE lower, but the trigger mechanism is inoperable with the WE lower unless you heavily modify the body."

[Chief Joseph]

Written by John Velleco
Gun Owners of America

U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), apparently unable to distinguish between real guns and replicas, seized a shipment of 30 toy guns in a February bust at the Port of Tacoma in Washington.

Airsoft guns, which fire little plastic balls, are used by a growing number of loyal enthusiasts (think paintball, only not as messy). In addition, thanks to their realistic look, weight, and feel, these guns are often used for training purposes by National Guard units and law enforcement.

It was this realism that led CBP agents to seize the shipment—which was destined for Airsoft Outlet Northwest in Cornelius, Oregon—and to call in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) for a closer look.

The BATFE was at least knowledgeable enough to discern that the guns in question were, in fact, not real guns. The case should have ended right then and there. After all, the agency has authority only with respect to the importation of real guns. Toy guns fall no more under BATFE jurisdiction than teddy bears.

However, a little technicality like lack of jurisdiction was not enough to keep BATFE off the case.

“In its present state, our firearms technology branch classified this as a machine gun,” said BATFE special agent Kelvin Crenshaw.

But wait a minute. Didn’t the BATFE previously admit that these are not real guns?

Yes, but “With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun,” Crenshaw said.

Astonished, the owners of the store, Brad Martin and his son, Ben, inquired with the agents as to exactly how “minimal” the work would be to “convert” these toys into real machine guns.

The Martins were given the government version of “talk to the hand.” File a Freedom of Information Act request, they were told.

The Martins have done just that, as has Gun Owners of America. There must be accountability with this agency because if the Bureau can unilaterally decide to get into the business of regulating toys, its mission has grown dramatically without any congressional input or oversight.

Of course, that would not come as a big surprise to many gun dealers who interact with the BATFE on a regular basis. The agency has become an arrogant and out-of-control bureaucracy with a history of trampling on people’s gun rights.

Even more troubling is that this agency’s mission—at least as it relates to firearms—falls completely outside the framework of constitutional authority given to the federal government.

As the Supreme Court reaffirmed in the 2008 Heller decision, Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms. But if firearms transactions have to be approved by the Washington bureaucrats, what was once a “right” has morphed into a “privilege.”

And now they are opening the door to regulating toy guns, even though it would be extremely risky, expensive and, well, dumb, to attempt to convert an Airsoft into an actual machinegun.

In fact, GOA and the Martins separately consulted with several gunsmiths who debunked the notion that the seized Airsoft guns could be converted with “minimal work.”

To make the transformation, the entirety of the upper receiver would have to be replaced, but the lower receiver would still be unable to endure the intense force of live ammunition because it is made of pot metal (inexpensive alloys) instead of hard steel. And all of this work would actually cost more than buying a real—and stable—AR-15 rifle.

BATFE also tried to justify the seizure because the toys lacked the blaze orange tips now required on all imported toy guns. This again raises the question of jurisdiction and the BATFE regulating toy guns.

The Martins noted that previous shipments from Taiwan lacked the orange paint, but that they were allowed to simply go to Tacoma and paint the ends of the barrels themselves.

Not this time, though. The toy guns, valued at over $10,000, remain in the hands of the BATFE and are slated to be destroyed.

Brad and Ben Martin were robbed just as surely as if they had been mugged walking down the street. Only in this instance, the thugs operated under the color of law by an agency whose very existence is questionable.

***************************
John Velleco is the Director of Federal Affairs for Gun Owners of America, a grass-roots lobbying organization with over 300,000 members nationwide

[rjmcw9]

What next????? :7: Hate the current state of affairs!

[johnh]

They cannot be made into real lowers. Do a little searching on the web and there are numerous sites that show what happens when you try to install real AR parts into the airsoft gas blowback lower receivers. The dimensions are totally off in most locations, holes are not in the right places or the right size, and there is no room in the interior of the receiver for most parts. It would be easier to convert an 80% receiver than to try and modify an airsoft one. In the airsoft case you would need to add metal where it does not exist. With an 80% you would need only to remove it.

The BATF was completely wrong and obviously misinformed. They likely will fall back on some import restrictions issues (trademarks, orange tip requirements) to justify what they did. These toys were in no way capable of being made into real firearms. I am alarmed to see some gun owners on forums falling for this story. I even saw one fellow post an SOT was going to buy some of the lowers to try and convert. Unfortunately this just adds credibility to the ATF position.

John

[TAISchris]

I remember having a cap gun before I was old enough to have a real gun. Those things were so cool. Mine looked like a real S&W .44. I can't remember when they started the "Orange Tip" rule, but it is so stupid.

Anyways, despite the seriousness of this situation, this thread mad me laugh. The troll "tv_racin_fan" had me rolling. "They can turn these into REAL guns!"

You can get a real AR-15 cheap enough that you wouldn't want to spend the time or money to "convert" a toy gun. Even if, no, especially if you're a criminal (because of the black market).