Obamacare

[muggsy]

I was cleaning my CM9 last night when this thought occurred to me. Did the US with a population of 314 million people really need to create a monstrous government bureaucracy to cover the 49 million people who didn't have healthcare insurance? Think about it and then vote republican.

[downtownv]

That decision was made long, long ago!

[Shark1007]

I was cleaning my PM45 last night and thinking, after seeing friends file bankruptcy from medical bills and then become completely dependant on taxpayer money, wouldn't it be a better idea to require some sort of health care and spend money here rather than killing our boys in Iraq and Afghanistan or giving the super wealthy tax breaks we don't get.

I guess the answer depends on if you buy the hype hook line and sinker or you know someone who might have lived if they had coverage.

Vote intelligently, be informed, nobody else can dictate your conscience or criticize your beliefs.

[downtownv]

Hmm Gun owner and Obama supporter seems like an oxymoron. Considering his gang would love to confiscate that PM45.....

[muggsy]

I was cleaning my PM45 last night and thinking, after seeing friends file bankruptcy from medical bills and then become completely dependant on taxpayer money, wouldn't it be a better idea to require some sort of health care and spend money here rather than killing our boys in Iraq and Afghanistan or giving the super wealthy tax breaks we don't get.

I guess the answer depends on if you buy the hype hook line and sinker or you know someone who might have lived if they had coverage.

Vote intelligently, be informed, nobody else can dictate your conscience or criticize your beliefs.

Living under tyranny is far worse than dying and there are far worse things than bankruptcy. You can recover from bankruptcy. You can't recover from Obamacare. President Obama has had three and a half years to pull our troops out of Afghanistan, close Gitmo, cut our deficit in half and reduce unemployment below 8%. He failed.

[O'Dell]

Living under tyranny is far worse than dying and there are far worse things than bankruptcy. You can recover from bankruptcy. You can't recover from Obamacare.

Amen, Brother muggsy!!

[kgturner]

Living under tyranny is far worse than dying and there are far worse things than bankruptcy.

Tell that to someone whose child or grandchild is dying because the family can't afford health insurance. Maybe at the funeral you can tell them that if they'd stayed in school, gone to college, got a better job, or worked harder, then they wouldn't have had to watch their eight year old daughter whither away and die from a disease that could've been treated. If only....

Kevin T

[Bawanna]

Nest to politics, insurance is probably my most hated subject.

The sad reality is insurance companies go all out to avoid paying claims. Insurance companies are heavily inhabited by lawyers.
In many cases your gonna die anyhow because the insurance company will come up with some lame excuse not to cover you.

Require it or make it the law and it gets even worse. What could be better for business that creating something and then creating a law that everyone has to buy it.

It's a huge never ending circle. The medical industry gouges and over charges and people allow it because insurance covers it but we all pay for that insurance one way or another.

Part of the reason for gouging in the medical industry is liability and guess where most of that comes from. LAWYERS.

Same with medical equipment. Take a wheelchair for example, a good manual, nothing terribly fancy one can set you back 3-4 grand. Nothing much different than a good mountain bke, that you can buy for 1000 for a really nice one but because it's a wheelchair, somebody might fall out and sue the company so we gotta pad it ALOT.

Even a wheelchair tire. I can get them at a bike shop for less than 10 bucks. At a medical provider, the only place insurance will pay for them they are 60.

I say monitor doctors better, find a way to eliminate frivolous lawsuits, get rid of doctors who get many complaints and get the medical cost down. The doctors might be even richer yet as they'll have to pay less insurance.
I got no problem with doctors being rich, but at the expense of ridiculous insurance premiums I sort of got an issue with.

Next time I'll discuss solving the high cost of fossil fuels and their part in stimulating the economy.............

[jeepster09]

Here is whats coming....

[chrish]

bad things happen every day to lots of people all over the world. it is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide health insurance or health care to folks that do not have it. it's that simple. this is not a complex question. you either believe in the govt taking care of everybody or you believe in people taking care of themselves. safety net for the poor is one thing, creating a system where people get free stuff is another.

i was cleaning my tp9 the other night thinking, you know, it's funny that many want the govt out of their bedroom and out of their womb but yet they somehow justify the govt having both hands in my pockets, wallet, and gun safe. now they are going to be in my doctors office too. interesting...

[Shark1007]

That's all easy to say if you're not the one needing help or know no one who needed and failed to achieve help.

I've found over the last 30 years or so that the biggest conservative hater types are among the most agressive when it's their Ox getting gored, so to speak.

I don't buy into the "he's gonna take my guns" story, but that's not the debate here, it was whether health care being required and, for those who have read the document, requiring insurance companies to rebate that not spent on claims is a good thing. I think it is, I've seen the good folks, not unlike yourselves go completely broke and helpless from unexpected medical bills.

I am one of those awful lawyers and I recall a debate where my client had two in their family that died from some horrible malady. Another that was diagnosed and killed herself and another, with better health insurance, who was saved by a surgeon at UCLA who was world renowned for being the guru and had done hundreds of the procedures. The insurance company declined to pay that doctor and found a general surgeon in Tampa that had done the procedure twice and they would only authorize him.

After agreeing to pay the airfare and the California doctor agreeing to accept whatever they would pay the Tampa guy, I still had to prepare to sue the insurance carrier before they relented. I charged the client zero, gave 'em extra money for their airfare and they lived.

Frivolous lawsuits are unprofitable for lawyers, no matter what your barber or friend tells you or you "heard" a story about. There are limits in place in most states that make the lawyer pay if they file a bogus suit and the client pays too.

Liability doesn't come from lawyers, it comes from bad acts and is enforced by lawyers. Could any of you afford to pay a lawyer an hourly rate to match dollars to an insurance company and have a fair fight? There are greedy lawyers and greedy clients, no kiddin, but they aren't the root. Responsibility is the key, if a Doctor doesn't follow the rules, he ought to pay, if an individual doesn't, it's their fault. It's a pretty simple analysis.

Bawanna, I like the way you think, you're a sharp guy with a reasoned attitude. If you could just make my PM45 work!!! Actually, I just got an XDS and am hoping it will fill the bill. I guess it could be worse, when I was a criminal investigator, I had a series 70 1911 that, anytime you clicked the thumb safety off, it would fire...

[molar]

Tell that to someone whose child or grandchild is dying because the family can't afford health insurance. Maybe at the funeral you can tell them that if they'd stayed in school, gone to college, got a better job, or worked harder, then they wouldn't have had to watch their eight year old daughter whither away and die from a disease that could've been treated. If only....

Kevin T

Insuring those who cannot truly afford coverage should be done at the state, not federal level. No eight year old in the state of Tennessee is going to die from a treatable disease due to lack of insurance. Tenncare, now know as cover TN was set up just for people who could not otherwise get coverage, whether due to pre-existing conditions or finances. It seems the blue states should follow Tennessee's lead and set up some kind of similar system. Oh wait, they can't because their liberal governments' have spent them into bankruptcy.

[Bawanna]

Whats wrong with your PM45? My memory isn't working to good. I don't recall reading any maladies.

I held an XDS last week and I liked it. Seemed like a really good gun. I wouldn't trade my PM45 for it but I wouldn't mind adding one as a running mate.

We'll get that PM45 running, I can assure you of that. PM or point me to the thread where you mentioned your issues and I'll form a posse.

[Bawanna]

Insuring those who cannot truly afford coverage should be done at the state, not federal level. No eight year old in the state of Tennessee is going to die from a treatable disease due to lack of insurance. Tenncare, now know as cover TN was set up just for people who could not otherwise get coverage, whether due to pre-existing conditions or finances. It seems the blue states should follow Tennessee's lead and set up some kind of similar system. Oh wait, they can't because their liberal governments' have spent them into bankruptcy.

I concur with this completely. It's a regional thing and yes many states could learn from many of the southern common sense states.

[muggsy]

Tell that to someone whose child or grandchild is dying because the family can't afford health insurance. Maybe at the funeral you can tell them that if they'd stayed in school, gone to college, got a better job, or worked harder, then they wouldn't have had to watch their eight year old daughter whither away and die from a disease that could've been treated. If only....

Kevin T

No one dies in this country from a lack of medical treatment. Those who are indigent are treated for free. Those of us who apply ourselves pay for those who don't. Don't try to lay a guilt trip on us or act as though we don't care. I care more than you do.

[muggsy]

bad things happen every day to lots of people all over the world. it is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide health insurance or health care to folks that do not have it. it's that simple. this is not a complex question. you either believe in the govt taking care of everybody or you believe in people taking care of themselves. safety net for the poor is one thing, creating a system where people get free stuff is another.

i was cleaning my tp9 the other night thinking, you know, it's funny that many want the govt out of their bedroom and out of their womb but yet they somehow justify the govt having both hands in my pockets, wallet, and gun safe. now they are going to be in my doctors office too. interesting...

Hope your TP9 sparkles. My CM9 does. It's good to clean your guns now and then. It keeps you thinking clearly.

[kgturner]

No one dies in this country from a lack of medical treatment. Those who are indigent are treated for free. Those of us who apply ourselves pay for those who don't. Don't try to lay a guilt trip on us or act as though we don't care. I care more than you do.

“Researchers from Harvard Medical School say the lack of coverage can be tied to about 45,000 deaths a year in the United States — a toll that is greater than the number of people who die each year from kidney disease.” (New York Times , 2009)

“A research team at Harvard Medical School estimates 2,266 U.S. military veterans under the age of 65 died last year because they lacked health insurance and thus had reduced access to care. That figure is more than 14 times the number of deaths (155) suffered byU.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2008, and more than twice as many as have died (911 as of Oct. 31) since the war began in 2001.” (PNHP , 2009)

I assume that's the same Harvard where both Obama and Romney received their doctorates. And, nuh-uh. I care more than you.

Kevin T

[jeepster09]

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/jeepster09/gimmiemoney.jpg

[JERRY]

if anybody really cared about the uninsured theyd make it so you can buy health insurance across state lines like you can with car insurance and home owner's insurance......

if folks in New York state saw a better insurance deal for them from a company in Nebraska they can't do a darn thing about it as it is.

you want lower health care premiums and deductibles? let people buy it across state lines.

[DeaconKC]

You want health insurance and the same benefits I have? Get a job! I took a job as a Correctional Officer in one of the most violent maximum security prisons in the country for those things. I was stabbed twice, scalded 4 times and went home a lot of days with bruises or the blood of other officers on my uniform. You want me to take more away from my family because you are too good or too lazy to take that kind of job? You want health insurance? EARN IT!

Okay, rant over......

[Shark1007]

Bawanna, sent you PM not to derail thread.

I've known many who died from lack of medical care, deaths that could have been prevented.

I wish the states would do something uniform, but everyone might move to Tenn. for example!

Maybe Froglube, applied to politicians will save us. heat 'em up, apply, and it will prevent carbon build up.

Deacon, I like the "get a job" idea. I had one of those too. Was stabbed directly over heart (wearing a 7 day old vest my dad bought me), shot twice and other smaller issues. I was in Army hospital in Ft Benning when they sent two young Orthoapedic types to my room to get me to sign off on amputation from the inside of the hip (hip disarticulation) telling me it would work much better, I could get a cool prosthesis.

That was 1975, I'm still leaving two footprints today and my mother happened to be in the room at the time. She was a WW2 Army Nurse and sent those two packing with a tirade like I'd never heard. They were looking for cheaper and quicker, just like insurance companies do today. I've spent a lot of my life fighting that kind of stuff because it's personal and I've been there.

[chrish]

That's all easy to say if you're not the one needing help or know no one who needed and failed to achieve help.

You can believe what you want about some folks and theorize about what they would do. I understand that you don't know me, or how I live my life. But I can tell you without a moments thought that I will never take from another to alleviate my situation.



I've found over the last 30 years or so that the biggest conservative hater types are among the most agressive when it's their Ox getting gored, so to speak.

Those are not equivalent comparisons, so not a valid argument. Someone comes on your property and does damage, that is what the law and seeking restitution is about. Someone gets sick and does not have adequate resources to resolve the problem is not the cause of another person.


I don't buy into the "he's gonna take my guns" story, but that's not the debate here

Agreed, but that wasn't my point either, it was regarding those that want to allow the govt to take and oppress on one hand but not on the other. You can't have it both ways (and be taken seriously).

As for the rest of your post, I do not disagree w/ most of it. But it's all anecdotal, specific scenarios, nothing macro. And there are already laws to deal w/ bad insurance companies, bad patients, fraud, etc. The system only need a few things: competition, dealing w/ the evil (and very rare) practive of cancelling coverage after someone gets sick. Pre-existing conditions limits are needed to control cost and worse, gaming the system...otherwise you are just financing care and fraud, not insuring against illness. Check with your local actuary on that. As for dependent coverage ages, and all the rest, those are contracts been the insured and the insurance company (or employer) and nobody's else business, including the government.

[Shark1007]

Chrish

Great points, you are a man of great integrity and I don't think I could live up to the "no matter what I would never take from others to alleviate my situation" theory. If a child was in trouble, someone was bled of money for medical care, I bet most would do anything to survive.

[Gatordave]

Just an opinion, we have over 350 million people in this country. The number used varies but supposedly there are 35-40 million without health care. BTW some thing the number may be as low as 15M.

Why create law that makes 350 million have to be insured by the government to the tune of 1.6 trillion dollars, when we could spend probably one third that amount around 270 B to just insure the uninsured and uninsureable?

That's where the plan went wrong insuring the 35-40 million was the reason to force Government insurance on all of us. They really just wanted Mandatory Govt insurance for the masses all the time.

[les strat]

We have over half the poplulation on the govt dole in some form or fashion, many of those who do not and will not cintribute to the pot. It can't work. It won't work.

We have provisions for kids without insurance in Alabama. Big federal govt with their hands in health care is the last thign we need. They did so well with Medicare and SS.

What a joke.

[chrish]

Hope your TP9 sparkles. My CM9 does. It's good to clean your guns now and then. It keeps you thinking clearly.

It do...and absolutely, nothing like a little CLP to clear out the old sinuses. One spray in the barrell of the gun, one up my nose :D

Then again, maybe that's why I think the way I do, maybe I should lighten up on that.

[chrish]

Chrish

Great points, you are a man of great integrity and I don't think I could live up to the "no matter what I would never take from others to alleviate my situation" theory. If a child was in trouble, someone was bled of money for medical care, I bet most would do anything to survive.

Please be sure to understand, when I say take, I mean take...and by that I mean what the govt does with excessive taxation and the welfare nanny state we have ushered into this country over the last 75-100 years.

I'm not saying I would not SEEK help if I was destitute. I'm not saying that I would not HELP someone that was destitute even if it meant my own family suffering or doing without. But that needs to happen (or not happen) on the level of the individual, not at the threat of fines or jail by a government. I'm not speaking of our govt, at this point, they are only doing fines or jail, but you get my drift.

It's not about greed or charity, it's about the role and responsibility of the individual and the government.

[tv_racin_fan]

IF the whole point of "Obamacare" was to insure everyone had healthcare why does it leave out so many millions of people? Something like 20 million of the nearly 50 million who do not currently have healthcare wont get it under "Obamacare" either. THAT makes no sense to me.

[melissa5]

Speaking as one of the uninsured, I'd rather take my chances than take Obama care. My present job does not offer health care and I don't make enough to purchase health care and pay my other bills and even if I did, I would be turned down because of a back injury. I still don't want the government taking care of me.

[chrish]

IF the whole point of "Obamacare" was to insure everyone had healthcare why does it leave out so many millions of people? Something like 20 million of the nearly 50 million who do not currently have healthcare wont get it under "Obamacare" either. THAT makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, it leaves a big gaping hole for folks and employers to just not comply and pay the fine. Make no mistake, premiums will be driven up by this (ask an actuary that isn't on the govt dole, or even one that is). When that happens, the fine will be cheaper than premiums. Given what we already know about the regs, it's already cheaper than MOST premiums. With no pre-ex conditions exclusions allowed anymore, you can pay the fine then pick up coverage (if you can even afford it) at the last minute. It's called anti-selection in the insurance industry and it's going to be rampant in this system. It stands a good chance of imploding the insurance industry, which I'm not convinced isn't their purpose in the first place. What better way to get true nationalized health care than to kill the existing system (tin foil hat comment for the day).

[chrish]

Speaking as one of the uninsured, I'd rather take my chances than take Obama care. My present job does not offer health care and I don't make enough to purchase health care and pay my other bills and even if I did, I would be turned down because of a back injury. I still don't want the government taking care of me.

Good for you!

But just as a point of info, while it might be expensive, and I understand your financial position comment, you probably CAN get coverage with things like back injuries and minor medical concerns. There is a LOT of false information about this being perpetuated by those on the other side of this debate that people can't get coverage. Barring a terminal illness, there are plans available, albeit expesive, that can be purchased. Catastrophic type medical coverage is still not that expensive even for folks that might not be in your situation to be able to afford day-to-day (copay/coinsurance) type insurance for just going to the doc or small price tag visit type coverage.

The whole mess is just a 'sky is falling' argument that people blindly believe because politicians tell a few sob stories that may or may not even be true.

The people have fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker.

[melissa5]

Good for you!

But just as a point of info, while it might be expensive, and I understand your financial position comment, you probably CAN get coverage with things like back injuries and minor medical concerns. There is a LOT of false information about this being perpetuated by those on the other side of this debate that people can't get coverage. Barring a terminal illness, there are plans available, albeit expesive, that can be purchased. Catastrophic type medical coverage is still not that expensive even for folks that might not be in your situation to be able to afford day-to-day (copay/coinsurance) type insurance for just going to the doc or small price tag visit type coverage.

The whole mess is just a 'sky is falling' argument that people blindly believe because politicians tell a few sob stories that may or may not even be true.

The people have fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker.

A few years ago I tried to get some Blue Cross, Blue Shield and was turned down because of my back problem. It was a very basic policy but was going to be over $200 a month. Changes need to be made to the health insurance industry, not a government run health care system that everyone must participate in. That smells almost like a monopoly to me.

[Bawanna]

It's a circus for sure. When I busted my back I of course could not longer be a carpenter, so no job, no insurance. Had to buy my own but they wouldn't insure me, had to put it in my wife's name, her and the kids covered full, me only minor stuff, nothing back related or major.
Labor and Industries covered that so not the end of the world but all the more reason to question insurance. You use it so now you don't have it anymore.

Labor and Industries is a mandatory gambling conspiracy too. You are forced to pay large along with your employer depending on your occupation. Carpenters had just been moved up right under loggers as the most dangerous profession. I think it was near 10 bucks an hour that an employer had to bill for each worker.

In my case it was a blessing as they lost really big and will continue to lose as long as I'm breathing and actually as long as the wife is breathing.

I try to save them every dime I can with equipment etc but they don't understand that. Use it, that's what it's for is their thinking.

[melissa5]

All I know is that if I have to take Obama care, I am going to use it for every little ache and pain...I need a boob job, Lasik on my eyes, liposuction, a face lift, laser hair removal, massages for my back aches, pedicure, manicure...:p

[Bawanna]

I can't believe she said that, can you believe she said that?

[Tinman507]

Whats wrong with Lasik?

[Bawanna]

I was referring to back massages, what am I for ya know?

[chrish]

A few years ago I tried to get some Blue Cross, Blue Shield and was turned down because of my back problem. It was a very basic policy but was going to be over $200 a month. Changes need to be made to the health insurance industry, not a government run health care system that everyone must participate in. That smells almost like a monopoly to me.

Pretty suprised by that, or that they didn't offer you another option. The blues usually offer a high deductible, high cost option that pretty much requires a terminal illness to get turned down. In some states, they are one if not the only 'insurer of last resort', so you can always get a policy of some kind. But not doubting your experience, every state is different w/ regard to regs on carriers and what they can/cant/do/dont offer.

I'm not saying it's a good solution to the problem, but I don't consider whats now in place is going to be a solution either.

[muggsy]

“Researchers from Harvard Medical School say the lack of coverage can be tied to about 45,000 deaths a year in the United States — a toll that is greater than the number of people who die each year from kidney disease.” (New York Times , 2009)

“A research team at Harvard Medical School estimates 2,266 U.S. military veterans under the age of 65 died last year because they lacked health insurance and thus had reduced access to care. That figure is more than 14 times the number of deaths (155) suffered byU.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2008, and more than twice as many as have died (911 as of Oct. 31) since the war began in 2001.” (PNHP , 2009)

I assume that's the same Harvard where both Obama and Romney received their doctorates. And, nuh-uh. I care more than you.

Kevin T

Any veteran can get free healthcare from the VA. How many of those deaths that you spoke of were attributed to alcoholism and drug abuse? How many of those uninsured are illegal immigrants? How many of those uninsured were wealthy and financially responsible? How many of the uninsured are young and healthy and choose to opt out of buying healthcare insurance? You try to paint conservatives as uncaring. That just isn't true. I'll help anyone who needs a hand up, but I won't give a penny to someone looking for a hand out. I don't want to poison our air, or water, throw granny off of the cliff, or euthanize the mentally deficient. Charity begins at home, not in Washington, D.C.

[melissa5]

I remember when family took care of each other...not the government.

[Sage]

Any time you pay a Dr. or hospital bill or pay an insurance premium you are helping to pay for someone else's healthcare. I would prefer everyone would pay their own way and keep government out of it. Since that's not going to happen I welcome Obamacare.

It's just like auto insurance. Those that weren't buying it were costing everyone money. The government made it mandatory and the system clearly works better now. The insurance companies love it and I don't have to worry nearly as much about being involved in an accident with some uninsured person.

[chrish]

Any time you pay a Dr. or hospital bill or pay an insurance premium you are helping to pay for someone else's healthcare. I would prefer everyone would pay their own way and keep government out of it. Since that's not going to happen I welcome Obamacare.

It's just like auto insurance. Those that weren't buying it were costing everyone money. The government made it mandatory and the system clearly works better now. The insurance companies love it and I don't have to worry nearly as much about being involved in an accident with some uninsured person.

You are comparing apples to oranges, no way is health care/insurance comparable to auto insurance. It's a false argument based on not really understanding insurance, risk, and trying to equate something that's guaranteed vs something 'expected' to happen.

1. Auto insurance is priced on risk. Providing healthcare in the form of ObamaCare is financing, not insurance. Health insurance is priced on risk also, based on the pool you are in and the expectation you will need service A vs service B. If you want to argue that all dr bills spread everything out anyway, you can argue that, but on a macro level then we might as well finance everything for everybody (food, clothing, etc). Further, if you think that the cost of someone's cancer treatment is factored in to an family doc office visit, that's not the case.

2. Auto insurance doesn't pay for anything elective or routine: new tires, gas, oil changes, maintenance. Heathcare includes all of that (check ups, well child visits, medication, elective surgery).

3. Auto insurance cannot be purchases AFTER you wreck your car. Obamacare will allow you to pay a FEE/PENALTY that does in no way comes close to your fair share of financed health care across the population, so you get a free ride until you decide to buy it in a catastropic situation.

4. You are not required to purchase auto insurance, that is misinformation. You can pay an uninsured motorist fee, but it is NOT insurance for you. It is simply a fee to line the pockets of your respective state. You get nothing for it. The person you hit gets nothing for it. You are still liable and can be sued, i.e. financially destroyed, just like if you don't have health insurance and get an expensive illness or have a traumatic accident. Check the regs in your state, I can guarantee you it'll be eye opening. Your bank may require you to carry car insurance to protect their investment, but they only care about collision in that regard, not your well being.

5. Your auto insurance company can and will drop you like a hot potato if you increase your risk past a point where they feel uncomfortable with you as a client. Sound familiar, like your health insurance company? Do enough bad stuff while driving and you wont' be able to get insurance from anybody. Am I comparing bad behavior behind the wheel to getting an illness you couldnt control...no...my point is about being dropped. You can still be dropped from auto coverage. You cannot equate auto to health. That's the one law that we needed, you get sick, you cannot be dropped. Pre-X is a totally different situation and needs to continue to work like it does today, otherwise everyone looses, this is not financing, this is risk/insurance.

I could probably go on, but that should be sufficient to kill the auto insurance argument.

[melissa5]

Any time you pay a Dr. or hospital bill or pay an insurance premium you are helping to pay for someone else's healthcare. I would prefer everyone would pay their own way and keep government out of it. Since that's not going to happen I welcome Obamacare.

It's just like auto insurance. Those that weren't buying it were costing everyone money. The government made it mandatory and the system clearly works better now. The insurance companies love it and I don't have to worry nearly as much about being involved in an accident with some uninsured person.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we pay extra in our auto insurance policies just for uninsured motorists? People still drive without insurance every day and licenses for that matter. This is just like gun control. Law abiding citizens will comply with the law whereas criminals won't. Why punish everyone for the actions of a few?

[chrish]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we pay extra in our auto insurance policies just for uninsured motorists? People still drive without insurance every day and licenses for that matter. This is just like gun control. Law abiding citizens will comply with the law whereas criminals won't. Why punish everyone for the actions of a few?

Yes, you likely pay a small fee in your car ins premium that coupled with the uninsured motorist fee is in your state, can (maybe) get you the difference in your damages and what the uninsured person can pay after you sue them. But, your insurance company pays it. The fee the state collected from the uninsured motorist when they originally elected to not pay, goes into fund to help offset those claims. They never collect enough to cover those damages, it's a farce. Your insurance company takes it on the chin, which ultimately gets passed back to you. But, they price for that in that small fee you pay. Same goes for the Obamacare 'fee', it will never be enough to offset the difference and premiums WILL GO UP as a result. In addition to the gov't fee, ins companies will have to add a fee to account for that. So get ready everybody, whatever you are paying now, it's gonna go up when people start figuring out they can game the system and opt out like an uninsured motorist.

That's also a state by state decision, whether carriers are required to do that, offer that, etc. State by state decision whether to charge for that. So the states make the decision. I don't advocate state sposored opression either, but that's where this decision ultimately belongs, not with the federal govt.

[les strat]

Just like you pay a "universal access fee" on your cell phone bill to give "unfortunate" people who do not have one a phone... or 30!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtrKeyMo_0

:rolleyes:

[knkali]

Yes, you likely pay a small fee in your car ins premium that coupled with the uninsured motorist fee is in your state, can (maybe) get you the difference in your damages and what the uninsured person can pay after you sue them. But, your insurance company pays it. The fee the state collected from the uninsured motorist when they originally elected to not pay, goes into fund to help offset those claims. They never collect enough to cover those damages, it's a farce. Your insurance company takes it on the chin, which ultimately gets passed back to you. But, they price for that in that small fee you pay. Same goes for the Obamacare 'fee', it will never be enough to offset the difference and premiums WILL GO UP as a result. In addition to the gov't fee, ins companies will have to add a fee to account for that. So get ready everybody, whatever you are paying now, it's gonna go up when people start figuring out they can game the system and opt out like an uninsured motorist.

That's also a state by state decision, whether carriers are required to do that, offer that, etc. State by state decision whether to charge for that. So the states make the decision. I don't advocate state sposored opression either, but that's where this decision ultimately belongs, not with the federal govt.

Give that person a cigar..... well said. Our premiums will go up no doubt and the extra strain put on our healthcare system will translate into a lower standard of care to boot. In short, pay more to get less.

[Bawanna]

Give that person a cigar..... well said. Our premiums will go up no doubt and the extra strain put on our healthcare system will translate into a lower standard of care to boot. In short, pay more to get less.

We have a bingo! About as efficient as the Pony Express.

[knkali]

That being said, I am for a strong America and to have that, we need to have healthy citizens. How we get there is the $1 mill (sic) dollar question. We are paying now for people that do not have healthcare so do we legitimize it and try to tweak the system? If so how? What about all the other industries that feed off the healthcare system? Mal med ins, tort law, big pharma, medical supplies, medical transport, to name a few ..all these things need to be taken into account too. How are we going to find doctors that are willing to service more people for the same or less money? Will we have a shortage of doctors? Who will watch the insurance industry that we will be lining up in front of for said coverage? The task is huge.

I believe the American people are the most generous in the world and will gladly help those that need help. What the American people dont like is abuse and waste of their money and generosity. Unfortunately, there will be both in any plan that is brought to practice. What is the plan? What will be installed to minimize the abuse and waste? Other than a bunch of hand waving and pontifications, I still do not know many details about universal healthcare in the U.S. Forinstance, if you need a liver and you are 13 yo is the criteria different if you are 60 yo? Who makes these decisions? Same with cancer treatment. How does a universal healthcare system and living wills work? What about hospice care? If a woman has a mastectomy is she covered for reconstruction? Just because politicians say that the hardworking families who cannot affort healthcare and have a sick child will not lose everything to medical bills with the proposed healthcare "plan" doesnt mean it is true. Does it say that anywhere in the "plan"?

[chrish]

The problem folks are seeming to have with regard to this issue is health care vs health insurance. Our system has moved toward heath care while we were not looking and people are used to it now. And it's not fair to those of us that want heath insurance. If folks want to buy into a health care financing arrangement, fine, let them do it. But I don't want to. There is absolutely no reason for it, other than to say I need your money to pay for my care. It's that simple.

I am happy to share my risk of cancer with everyone in the pool. If I get it, you get it, someone else gets it, our premiums are priced to cover the statistical likelyhood that some number of the pool will get cancer. That's what insurance was originally intended for, designed for, and priced for.

But, elective coverage and yes, even maintenance to some degree (insulin, anti-inflammitory meds, blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, check ups, immunizations, the list goes on) are not insurable items. They are guaranteed expenditures once you are diagnosed with a condition or they are guaranteed items that insured will always use once given the benefit (well child, physicals, immunizations, etc).

So, in the old days, you bought major med coverage for the unexpected and you paid your way for the elective and maintenance/day-to-day stuff. People started demanding free stuff, employers started asking for it, insurance companies priced it. It has snowballed out of control (as should have been expected).

Here's an exercise for those that still disagree. If you have dental coverage (including preventative care), check what your premium component is for that coverage. Add it up for the year and then call your dentist and find out what he charges you and your insurance for 2 cleanings (typical yearly allowance for preventative care). Make sure to subtract what you have to pay if it's an 80/20 deal. Those numbers will be almost exactly the same. Your premium will likely be a bit higher. You are in essence financing your cleanings and paying a little for the possibility you'll need a filling or other major work done. That's how it works. The cleaning is guaranteed (most of the time) that the policy holder will use those services. Nothing is free. If everyone uses it, the insurance company has to pay it out for everyone, the pool has to amass enough money to always pay for those cleanings.

Same goes for maintenance meds. But today, instead of just covering you for your catastrophic claims, you are also financing your own and everybody elses medial care, not insuring yourself against less likely scenarios.

[knkali]

Chrish:
Please dont give up on me... I am not following what the main point is. Not your fault. I agree and understand your comments but not making the connection with the proposed HC plan.

[Chuck54]

Is it about 50 million without health care ?



So if each candidate pitched in 25 million of their campaign contributions they could give each uninsured person a million bucks and that should take care of the issue. We could all afford insurance.

:p

[muggsy]

Just an opinion, we have over 350 million people in this country. The number used varies but supposedly there are 35-40 million without health care. BTW some thing the number may be as low as 15M.

Why create law that makes 350 million have to be insured by the government to the tune of 1.6 trillion dollars, when we could spend probably one third that amount around 270 B to just insure the uninsured and uninsureable?

That's where the plan went wrong insuring the 35-40 million was the reason to force Government insurance on all of us. They really just wanted Mandatory Govt insurance for the masses all the time.

+1 Gatordave. My point exactly. A government intrusion into our privacy and diminishing of our freedom. That's what Obamacare accomplished.

[muggsy]

Speaking as one of the uninsured, I'd rather take my chances than take Obama care. My present job does not offer health care and I don't make enough to purchase health care and pay my other bills and even if I did, I would be turned down because of a back injury. I still don't want the government taking care of me.

Melissa5, get catastrophic healthcare insurance. It's not expensive and it could save your life. Hope you never have to use it.

[chrish]

Chrish:
Please dont give up on me... I am not following what the main point is. Not your fault. I agree and understand your comments but not making the connection with the proposed HC plan.

No problem, I get wound up :D

My point is simply that this whole thing (obamacare) has stemmed from anger at the perceived evil of insurance companies. All of the components of obamacare are either going to kill insurance, or cause the price to rise beyond a sustainable point. The structure of obamacare is NOT insurance but IS financed healthcare on a national scale and the cost as a result will rise, it has to. I just want people to understand that, so when it is in place in full force (assuming we cannot get it repealed), they understand why their idea has failed miserably and they are paying thru the nose for insurance worse than they are today.

Does that answer your question? Or am I still rambling?

[muggsy]

I remember when family took care of each other...not the government.

If you can't afford that boob job, I'll bet every guy on this MB would be willing to donate a few bucks. After all, you are a part of the Kahr family and that's what family is for. ;)

[muggsy]

And to think that all of this started just because I was cleaning my CM9. :)

[Bawanna]

I've told Ms. Melissa that I have her back about 100 times, I guess there's now no issue saying I have her front covered as well.

I'm going down for this one I just freaking know it. I'm feeling hot!

And I don't even have a CM9.

[knkali]

No problem, I get wound up :D

My point is simply that this whole thing (obamacare) has stemmed from anger at the perceived evil of insurance companies. All of the components of obamacare are either going to kill insurance, or cause the price to rise beyond a sustainable point. The structure of obamacare is NOT insurance but IS financed healthcare on a national scale and the cost as a result will rise, it has to. I just want people to understand that, so when it is in place in full force (assuming we cannot get it repealed), they understand why their idea has failed miserably and they are paying thru the nose for insurance worse than they are today.

Does that answer your question? Or am I still rambling?

Yes ....when Health care and insurance are considered two different things, BUT I do not think people look at it that way. While the premium for routine stuff equals the cost of these services which you call health care, people will not pay of these services if they do not have "insurance" to cover it because (as you mentioned) employers have been forced (for many reasons) to finance health care under the title of 'insurance". Did I get it right?

[chrish]

Yes ....when Health care and insurance are considered two different things, BUT I do not think people look at it that way. While the premium for routine stuff equals the cost of these services which you call health care, people will not pay of these services if they do not have "insurance" to cover it because (as you mentioned) employers have been forced (for many reasons) to finance health care under the title of 'insurance". Did I get it right?

Yep, agreed. The definition has changed and that's my point. Everybody wants their healthcare now financed and don't realize (or maybe they do) that blending it all together defeats the purpose and will ultimately just be dividing the cost across everyone. Insurance (risk) allows people to choose the pool they are in and assumes some people won't use or do not get services. The cost between the 2 are totally different.

I don't think 'forced' is necessarily what happened, asked and agreed to provide...and that's a decision between a company and it's employees. If they want to do that, fine...that's the other point, it's not forced by govt but a contract between 3 parties (employer, employee, insurance company) or 2 (employer and employee) when the company is big enough to self insure employee coverage.

But once employers provided it, people have begun to expect it and think they deserve it as a 'right' vs a 'benefit'.

[melissa5]

Melissa5, get catastrophic healthcare insurance. It's not expensive and it could save your life. Hope you never have to use it.

Thanks Muggsy! I'll look into that.

[melissa5]

If you can't afford that boob job, I'll bet every guy on this MB would be willing to donate a few bucks. After all, you are a part of the Kahr family and that's what family is for. ;)

What a nice thought...but ya'll would not get to see before OR after pictures. :p

Bawanna, that means you too! :D

[Tinman507]

http://granitegrok.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/in_flames.jpg

[knkali]

Yep, agreed. The definition has changed and that's my point. Everybody wants their healthcare now financed and don't realize (or maybe they do) that blending it all together defeats the purpose and will ultimately just be dividing the cost across everyone. Insurance (risk) allows people to choose the pool they are in and assumes some people won't use or do not get services. The cost between the 2 are totally different.

I don't think 'forced' is necessarily what happened, asked and agreed to provide...and that's a decision between a company and it's employees. If they want to do that, fine...that's the other point, it's not forced by govt but a contract between 3 parties (employer, employee, insurance company) or 2 (employer and employee) when the company is big enough to self insure employee coverage.

But once employers provided it, people have begun to expect it and think they deserve it as a 'right' vs a 'benefit'.

Understood.. thank you for your help on that

[muggsy]

What a nice thought...but ya'll would not get to see before OR after pictures. :p

Bawanna, that means you too! :D

A guy can dream can't he? :)

[muggsy]

Understood.. thank you for your help on that

In most cases people negotiated for healthcare insurance in lieu of a raise or higher salary. In most cases it's a contractual agreement between the management and employees. That's is why the employees have come to expect it.

[muggsy]

I've told Ms. Melissa that I have her back about 100 times, I guess there's now no issue saying I have her front covered as well.

I'm going down for this one I just freaking know it. I'm feeling hot!

And I don't even have a CM9.

Without nipples, boobs would be pointless, or so I've been told. :)
(Don't ban me. Melissa5 started this line of conversation.)

[Bawanna]

What a nice thought...but ya'll would not get to see before OR after pictures. :p

Bawanna, that means you too! :D

Wow! So this is what it feels like to be just a regular guy.

The crashing and burning balloon (derigible) is so fitting.

Well only one thing to do........

go curl up in a fetal position on the kitchen floor and suck my thumb. Kind of a bawanna cure all.

I suspect I'll continue to lose brownie points for thinking about it while I'm there.

[melissa5]

Without nipples, boobs would be pointless, or so I've been told. :)
(Don't ban me. Melissa5 started this line of conversation.)

True! OK....I've heard that more than a mouthful is a waste. :eek:

[les strat]

True! OK....I've heard that more than a mouthful is a waste. :eek:

Sometimes waste is ok!

I doubt most women would say the same about men :D

[Bawanna]

See the edge?

[knkali]

wow this thread has taken a turn for the better

[CrabbyAzz]

bad things happen every day to lots of people all over the world. it is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide health insurance or health care to folks that do not have it. it's that simple. this is not a complex question. you either believe in the govt taking care of everybody or you believe in people taking care of themselves. safety net for the poor is one thing, creating a system where people get free stuff is another.

i was cleaning my tp9 the other night thinking, you know, it's funny that many want the govt out of their bedroom and out of their womb but yet they somehow justify the govt having both hands in my pockets, wallet, and gun safe. now they are going to be in my doctors office too. interesting...

In a perfect world you might be right. However, you are already paying for other peoples healthcare. Hospitals are required to treat all people, even those without insurance and no money. So, you pay for it in taxes and you pay for it in higher medical cost and higher insurance premiums.

Issues aren't always black and white. That's why I'll be voting Obama 2012. I see it this way. Republican across the country proposed 1000 abortion bills and zero jobs bills. Nuff said!

ps. Legitimate rape... Explain that to your wife and daughter.....

[Bawanna]

http://granitegrok.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/in_flames.jpg

It was.

[jocko]

In a perfect world you might be right. However, you are already paying for other peoples healthcare. Hospitals are required to treat all people, even those without insurance and no money. So, you pay for it in taxes and you pay for it in higher medical cost and higher insurance premiums.

Issues aren't always black and white. That's why I'll be voting Obama 2012. I see it this way. Republican across the country proposed 1000 abortion bills and zero jobs bills. Nuff said!

ps. Legitimate rape... Explain that to your wife and daughter.....

come on now crabby ass, one ignorant repoublican from Missouri makes a stupid ass statement and u condem the entire party. WTF planet are u from.:7:

[Bawanna]

My final entry in this thread since I can't help myself and I have to get back to the kitchen floor.

We got one idiot with a mouth faster than his brain but your party has all the rest and the head one to boot.

To me the government, especially the president shouldn't have the slightest input on abortion issues or religion etc. I'm hoping the "new president" stays focused on getting the country back on track in the overall scheme of things.

[knkali]

My final entry in this thread since I can't help myself and I have to get back to the kitchen floor.

We got one idiot with a mouth faster than his brain but your party has all the rest and the head one to boot.

To me the government, especially the president shouldn't have the slightest input on abortion issues or religion etc. I'm hoping the "new president" stays focused on getting the country back on track in the overall scheme of things.


Would that be called being a moderate conservative?

[xdjosh1980]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=l-HqHSkYG-Y&feature=fvwp

Nuff said. I'll let you guess my vote in November.....

[tv_racin_fan]

In a perfect world you might be right. However, you are already paying for other peoples healthcare. Hospitals are required to treat all people, even those without insurance and no money. So, you pay for it in taxes and you pay for it in higher medical cost and higher insurance premiums.

Issues aren't always black and white. That's why I'll be voting Obama 2012. I see it this way. Republican across the country proposed 1000 abortion bills and zero jobs bills. Nuff said!

ps. Legitimate rape... Explain that to your wife and daughter.....

Right.. that is why there are several bills that could effect the job market sitting on Harry Reids desk passed by the house that he wont allow on the floor for a vote.

I don't have to explain "legitimate" rape to my wife or daughters. They are well aware of the difference between "legitimate" rape and statutory rape.

[chrish]

In a perfect world you might be right. However, you are already paying for other peoples healthcare. Hospitals are required to treat all people, even those without insurance and no money. So, you pay for it in taxes and you pay for it in higher medical cost and higher insurance premiums.

Issues aren't always black and white. That's why I'll be voting Obama 2012. I see it this way. Republican across the country proposed 1000 abortion bills and zero jobs bills. Nuff said!

ps. Legitimate rape... Explain that to your wife and daughter.....

I'm right in this world too. Either you didn't read the rest of my posts, explaining how this all works, you don't agree with it (your choice), or you think you have a different/better/accurate position. Either way, think what you want. I don't think you fully understand insurance, risk pools, etc.

The only taxes I pay that factor into the cost of overall health care are those that pump into Medicare and Medicaid. Those programs, evil as they are, set limits on what a particular service costs. The only part of those programs, from my taxes, that cause an increase in healthcare costs are the inefficiencies in govt running those programs and the fraud that exists. If the govt got out of that business, BOTH of those go away and would further lower our costs. I guarantee you, UCR limits and fraud control performed by private companies is light years ahead of anything the govt is doing. So that blows your 'pay for it in taxes' argument.

Those limits are BELOW what those services really cost or what a doc would typically charge. They are FORCED by the govt to take whatever the govt deems acceptable and therefore loose money servicing medicare patients and medicaid patients. How is that a good thing? How would you feel if the govt told your employer that your services were only worth X and you could only be paid that much (which is let's say 50% less than you make now). Ah, turn the tables and what happens there Crabby?

As for paying for it in premiums. I do not, not the way you are defining it. I am part of a relatively healthy pool. There are cost control measures built into my policy w/in my pool that keep my premium low as a result. Without this pool, my cost will go up. So while you might want to make that claim, it doesn't fly until you dump everybody into the same pool, then we are all paying for each others care, then we are back to my point, then I come out on top of that argument too.

Last, are you accusing me of saying something about 'legitimate rape'? Making that statement just makes you look like and idiot. What in the WORLD does your last few sentences about voting for Obama and me explaining 'legitimate rape' to anybody have to do with the topic at hand?

[knkali]

Insurance companies regulate what docs charge too. Not just the gov. Docs usually agree to a fee schedual to be a part of the insurance plan. Prudential, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, MEtlife ect thay all have their own fee schedule and non of them are the same but always lower than the providers fee.

[chrish]

Insurance companies regulate what docs charge too. Not just the gov. Docs usually agree to a fee schedual to be a part of the insurance plan. Prudential, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, MEtlife ect thay all have their own fee schedule and non of them are the same but always lower than the providers fee.

Yea, every carrier has a fee schedules. Without them, premiums go thru the roof. Some allow the provider to balance bill their customers, some do not. Providers are free to not see patients of any given company. The fee schedules between docs, hospitals, and private carriers are private contracts. Once the govt is involved, those become mandatory, possibly will require providers to see anybody and everybody once this spins totally out of control.

This all boils down to a couple of questions.

1. Whether you believe the govt should be allowed to control free trade, free markets, and individual people, or not.

2. Whether you believe everybody else should pay for your services vs you get to pick the people you share your services with.

The fact that costs bleed over a little between here and there are extremely minor in comparison to the cost controls in place by private insurance companies on individual pools of underwritten people.

This whole argument that we are already paying for stuff thru our taxes, or our existing hospital bills, etc. is bunk! If we are already paying for it all, if people get service no matter what, then why in the crap do we need Obamacare in the first place then? That argument is saying that all of the things it claims to do already exist. Seems a little stupid.

[muggsy]

Illegitimate rape is the type of rape perpetrated by Tawana Brawley.

[CrabbyAzz]

Illegitimate rape is the type of rape perpetrated by Tawana Brawley.

No sir, do your homework. According to the christian extremest side of the repub party, illegitimate rape is a rape that results in pregnancy. So if your wife or daughter is raped and becomes pregnant, it's because they ask for it. And whether the rape is legitimate of not, in the 31 states the rapist has the right to sue for parental rights. How would you like driving your grandson over to your daughters rapist house for weekend visitation.

The problem with gun forums like this is many of the members are single issue voters. Give me my guns and "F" everybody else's rights.

[JFootin]

The problem with gun forums like this is many of the members are single issue voters. Give me my guns and "F" everybody else's rights.

IMO, you're skating on thin ice as far as forum membership rights are concerned, CrabbyAzz. Just sayin', watch out where you're flinging that stuff.

[melissa5]

Akin is an idiot. I'm a Christian Republican and was offended by his comments. Not all Christians or Republicans are stupid or narrow minded like that.

[CrabbyAzz]

Akin is an idiot. I'm a Christian Republican and was offended by his comments. Not all Christians or Republicans are stupid or narrow minded like that.
,
That's true Melissa, but right now the narrow minded idiots are driving the bus. In fact Ryan co-authored a bill with Akin which limits a woman's access and funding for an abortion even after a violent rape.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/23/conservative-christians-rally-around-akin-in-face-of-gop-criticism/?hpt=hp_bn3

[melissa5]

While I don't think abortion should take the place of birth control or be funded by the government, I also would not make a law outlawing abortion...especially in the case of rape. I don't feel that a woman should be forced to have a baby that she does not want. Then what about a father's rights? Does he even have any? He may want the baby when the mother does not. The whole abortion issue is very murky. When is it a child instead of a blob? I feel that partial birth abortion is WRONG. Since you've waited late enough for the child to born, then put it up for adoption. There are plenty of couples who can't have children of their own. I just don't believe in telling people how to live their lives. They don't answer to me, but to their God or no God if that is their choice.

As far as people standing behind Akin, I guess sometimes you just have to support your party whether you necessarily agree with them or not because you think the alternative is worse. I don't particularly like or dislike Romney, but I do dislike Obama, so I'll vote for Romney.

[JERRY]

Akin's comment sounds more like the stupid stuff Joe Biden says on a regular basis....

[CrabbyAzz]

While I don't think abortion should take the place of birth control or be funded by the government, I also would not make a law outlawing abortion...especially in the case of rape. I don't feel that a woman should be forced to have a baby that she does not want. Then what about a father's rights? Does he even have any? He may want the baby when the mother does not. The whole abortion issue is very murky. When is it a child instead of a blob? I feel that partial birth abortion is WRONG. Since you've waited late enough for the child to born, then put it up for adoption. There are plenty of couples who can't have children of their own. I just don't believe in telling people how to live their lives. They don't answer to me, but to their God or no God if that is their choice.

As far as people standing behind Akin, I guess sometimes you just have to support your party whether you necessarily agree with them or not because you think the alternative is worse. I don't particularly like or dislike Romney, but I do dislike Obama, so I'll vote for Romney.

You and I agree on many points, however I cannot trample on so many social and personal rights to vote republican in the foreseeable future.

[JERRY]

You and I agree on many points, however I cannot trample on so many social and personal rights to vote republican in the foreseeable future.

so youre going to vote democrat because they dont trample on personal rights?!:rolleyes::confused:

or youre just not going to vote or vote 3rd party which is basically the same thing...?

[CrabbyAzz]

so youre going to vote democrat because they dont trample on personal rights?!:rolleyes::confused:

or youre just not going to vote or vote 3rd party which is basically the same thing...?

Voting democrat. I believe in strict separation of church and state. And I don't have a problem with Obamacare. Personally it was republican idea. I would have been happier with universal healthcare, but Obamacare is better than nothing.

[JERRY]

voting democrat. I believe in strict separation of church and state. And i don't have a problem with obamacare. Personally it was republican idea. I would have been happier with universal healthcare, but obamacare is better than nothing.


it struck me as odd that you are a gun owner who wont vote for a conservative because of rights being trampled, but vote for a liberal who has a foundation of trampling personal rights in lieu of expanding gubmint powers.

[chrish]

No sir, do your homework. According to the christian extremest side of the repub party, illegitimate rape is a rape that results in pregnancy. So if your wife or daughter is raped and becomes pregnant, it's because they ask for it. And whether the rape is legitimate of not, in the 31 states the rapist has the right to sue for parental rights. How would you like driving your grandson over to your daughters rapist house for weekend visitation.

The problem with gun forums like this is many of the members are single issue voters. Give me my guns and "F" everybody else's rights.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard uttered in quite a while.

[nmkahrshooter]

It doesn't matter who you vote for. System is ruined and will take another 50 years to fix if we have that long!

[JERRY]

it doesn't matter who you vote for. System is ruined and will take another 50 years to fix if we have that long!

every time the liberal agenda is put in the white house, senate, and house of reps it backs us up even more.....

Some people confuse seperation of church and state as freedom from religeon instead of freedom of religeon.

[chrish]

every time the liberal agenda is put in the white house, senate, and house of reps it backs us up even more.....

Some people confuse seperation of church and state as freedom from religeon instead of freedom of religeon.

+1 ... separation of church and state is a myth perpetuated by the left and anti-religion folk anyway. and i say that being 75% libertarian and 25% republican. if there is any confusion, i'm 0% democrat :)

Wow, this has really descended into a mess. I'm gonna be the first to bail from the discussion and stop fanning the flames of debate and argument. Gonna go find a gun thread to hang out in and cool my jets.

[CrabbyAzz]

+1 ... separation of church and state is a myth perpetuated by the left and anti-religion folk anyway. and i say that being 75% libertarian and 25% republican. if there is any confusion, i'm 0% democrat :)

Wow, this has really descended into a mess. I'm gonna be the first to bail from the discussion and stop fanning the flames of debate and argument. Gonna go find a gun thread to hang out in and cool my jets.

I believe in separation of church and state and yes it also means freedom from religion.

[JERRY]

I believe in separation of church and state and yes it also means freedom from religion.

can you show me where in the bill of rights its says that you are protected from an individual's religion? i can't find it, in fact i only find freedom from being coerced by the government that tries to establish a government sanctioned religion. not that youre free from it but do not have to join if you dont want to.

[Bawanna]

I've been out of the loop for a couple days. Anybody think of a good reason to keep this thread alive? I think we're done here but since I just now got back, I don't want to do anything hasty.

Somebody might just be starting to like me and I do something bad and right back to the bottom of the popularity barrel ya know?

[JERRY]

Close it, its been done do death i figure....