Stuck slide stop pin

[marky]

Hello all:

I use to be a member here but stopped carrying my PM9 and put it way well over a year ago. Last week I decided to get it out and give it another try. After cleaning it I managed to install the slide stop pin in front of the barrel lug instead of through the hole in the lug. Needless to say the slide and barrel are locked up and I can't get the pin back out. I can move the slide back about a half inch and that's it.

I emailed Jay at the company and he says there's nothing for it but to send it in. How much is that, $50? I can't believe this pistol can be made unusable so easily!

I've tried to find some ideas on the internet but they mostly consist of whacking the exposed end of the pin with a dowel and hammer. I instead slowly put pressure on the pin end with a vise and can see the other end of the pin move out but it goes right back in when I release the pressure. I guess there's a flange on the lever end of the pin that is trapped behind the slide?

Has anyone else experienced this? Right now I can't justify spending anything like $50 and have nothing to show for it so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much,
marky

[Bawanna]

Seems like Greg? had a fix for this but I'm not certain. I'll hunt around some. Maybe others with a better memory than mine can recall it?

[TucsonMTB]

Hey Bawanna! This might be the thread you are thinking of? http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=136963

[gb6491]

Seems like Greg? had a fix for this but I'm not certain. I'll hunt around some. Maybe others with a better memory than mine can recall it?
I did have a suggestion that helped a member get a stuck slide off. If the OP is interested. it's located here: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7485&page=3 I would suggest reading the whole thread to see if that member's problem mirrors the one here.
regards,
Greg

[muggsy]

Hello all:

I use to be a member here but stopped carrying my PM9 and put it way well over a year ago. Last week I decided to get it out and give it another try. After cleaning it I managed to install the slide stop pin in front of the barrel lug instead of through the hole in the lug. Needless to say the slide and barrel are locked up and I can't get the pin back out. I can move the slide back about a half inch and that's it.

I emailed Jay at the company and he says there's nothing for it but to send it in. How much is that, $50? I can't believe this pistol can be made unusable so easily!

I've tried to find some ideas on the internet but they mostly consist of whacking the exposed end of the pin with a dowel and hammer. I instead slowly put pressure on the pin end with a vise and can see the other end of the pin move out but it goes right back in when I release the pressure. I guess there's a flange on the lever end of the pin that is trapped behind the slide?

Has anyone else experienced this? Right now I can't justify spending anything like $50 and have nothing to show for it so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much,
marky

It's quite common for people with ten thumbs to make this reassembly error. I'm surprised that Bawanna hasn't done it yet. You're not the first to do it and won't be the last. If you played with your PM9 a little more often it wouldn't be such a stranger. :) Have you tried pulling the trigger to enable you to move the slide?

[marky]

Thanks for the ideas but have they helped people with this problem of the pin in front of the barrel lug? The barrel is pretty much wedged into the slide and will move with the slide but not at all separately. I can't get something between the barrel and the front of the slide. I suppose the pin has the barrel held up against the breech face. The trigger is uncocked and the little I can move the slide doesn't affect it. There was a suggestion about the slide pin spring. Could it possibly be strong enough to pull the pin back in when I push from the other side? I'd much rather pay to replace the spring than send it in but it seems the spring would give before the slide stop pin starts to "bend" in like it does in the vise. Does the slide stop lever actually lock in behind the slide or am I wrong about that? Thanks for the help!

[Bawanna]

Both of those two links are what I was looking for. One or the other should get that slide off. I think I'd try the paper clip method, Gregs first since it's the least likely to do any harm.

Failing that it's time for the chopsticks and mallet. Be patient, go easy, if you get frustrated set it aside and tackle it again a bit later.

We've all been in similar predicaments. Keep us posted. We're here to cheer or help if we can.

[marky]

Guys, I really do appreciate the help but I don't think the two suggestions are for my problem. I may not have been clear about the pin position. The slide is now almost all the way back and in fact is in the position it would be in if the slide lever were holding it in place. I can move the lever up and down into the the half moon cutout. Greg's problem gun had the slide sticking out towards the front of the gun. So I guess the pin can go in on either side of the lug as well as through it! I should have mentioned that I asked Jay about the slide stop spring but he stated the spring is fine but the barrel is locked into the slide (which it is) and can only be fixed by a gunsmith. I'm just hoping that's not necessarily the only option. Could someone maybe look at how the slide stop works on their gun and see if it is indeed locked behind the slide? Thanks so much!

[CJB]

pictures of what you have will make responses a lot easier!

[tv_racin_fan]

Dunno where you are but if you are close enough to me (Atlanta GA) I'll take a look at it.

[yqtszhj]

If you can get the slide stop lined up with the half moon cut out I'd take a punch to the right side and try to tap it out.

If not, one other thing is can you operate the trigger at all at various points of the trigger range while trying to move the slide back a bit more to loosen it up? Either way you may end up using a punch and mallet. Go for it. A slide stop is only $16 I think.

[CJB]

If you can get the slide stop lined up with the half moon cut out I'd take a punch to the right side and try to tap it out.



My thoughts exactly

[gb6491]

Guys, I really do appreciate the help but I don't think the two suggestions are for my problem. I may not have been clear about the pin position. The slide is now almost all the way back and in fact is in the position it would be in if the slide lever were holding it in place. I can move the lever up and down into the the half moon cutout. Greg's problem gun had the slide sticking out towards the front of the gun. So I guess the pin can go in on either side of the lug as well as through it! I should have mentioned that I asked Jay about the slide stop spring but he stated the spring is fine but the barrel is locked into the slide (which it is) and can only be fixed by a gunsmith. I'm just hoping that's not necessarily the only option. Could someone maybe look at how the slide stop works on their gun and see if it is indeed locked behind the slide? Thanks so much!


If you can get the slide stop lined up with the half moon cut out I'd take a punch to the right side and try to tap it out.

If not, one other thing is can you operate the trigger at all at various points of the trigger range while trying to move the slide back a bit more to loosen it up? Either way you may end up using a punch and mallet. Go for it. A slide stop is only $16 I think.

Marky,
As ygtszhi has pointed out "If you can get the slide stop lined up with the half moon cut out I'd take a punch to the right side and try to tap it out."
Here are the conditions you are looking for:
1. There is a tab on the slide stop that helps keep it behind the slide.
2. That tab is what you have to line up with one of the cut outs on the slide. It must be aligned side to side in the cut out and the slide stop must be held down far enough for the top of the tab to clear the cut out.
The tab can be in either cutout, as illustrated below:
http://i49.tinypic.com/20t31x0.jpg
The photo on the far right shows the stop partially removed from the frame, note that the stop is down so that the tab clears the take down notch/cut out:
If these conditions are met, the only things that can hold the stop in the frame would be tension from the barrel lug on the stop pin and/or the slide stop spring. You should be able to overcome either tapping on the end of the slide stop pin.
Regards,
Greg

[marky]

Greg: Your pictures show exactly what the problem is. I was wrong about the position of the tab. I thought the tab and notch must be lined up because the lever moves up and down a little but your pictures show me the half moon is actually farther to the right of the tab, almost to the end of the lever, so the tab is completely behind the slide. This is why when I pushed out the pin in the vise the pin end came out but the tab didn't budge. I can only move the slide back, moving the cutout further away.

So this is what happens when you put the pin in front of the barrel lug! I now have to figure a way to move the slide forward a little or to get the pin out in this position. Am I the only one dumb enough to have done this?

[JFootin]

Am I the only one dumb enough to have done this

No. It happens. That's why Jay knew the standard response, which is send it back to the Mothership. Their gunsmiths know the trick, but they don't want to share it. Sorry you have experienced this. :(

[gb6491]

Greg: Your pictures show exactly what the problem is. I was wrong about the position of the tab. I thought the tab and notch must be lined up because the lever moves up and down a little but your pictures show me the half moon is actually farther to the right of the tab, almost to the end of the lever, so the tab is completely behind the slide. This is why when I pushed out the pin in the vise the pin end came out but the tab didn't budge. I can only move the slide back, moving the cutout further away.

So this is what happens when you put the pin in front of the barrel lug! I now have to figure a way to move the slide forward a little or to get the pin out in this position. Am I the only one dumb enough to have done this?
Can you move the slide back far enough to align the tab in the larger cut out? If so, the stop can be removed through it as well.
As others have mentioned, some photos of your predicament would be of help in finding a fix for it.
Regards,
Greg

[CJB]

Its like sex. If it went in, eventually its gonna come out.....


Seriuosly, you got it in there, so its gotta come back out.

[marky]

Greg, I can only move the slide back about a quarter inch. At that point the larger cutout is right over the pin but nowhere near the tab.

I could try to get some pictures of it but you'll just see the slide held back, just about at the position Greg's pictures show except the tab is under the slide to the left.

[jocko]

greg, could this guy be havig the issues that yoiu had a fix for awhile back with the cocking cam needing some TLC. Somewhere somehow like CXJB stated, that cut out or halfmon cut out HAD to be over that tyab fgor it to go all the way in..

wow would some good photos help alot also..

I am wanting to think the slide lock pin is now in front of the barrel lug instead of through it, and therefore mayber sopmething in the rear section of the frame (i. e. cocking cam) is preventing it from going back further. What about maybe a damn good tap with a 2 X 4 or rubber mallet on the front of the slide.

[yqtszhj]

I think Jocko may have it with something about the cocking cam. Humor me for a minute if you can.

I'm reading that you have a PM9. Is the muzzle of the barrel sticking out some amount in front of the slide? If it's flush read no further, I'm all wrong. If it is sticking out some amount read my thinking below.

If the barrel muzzle is outside the slide some amount I don't think that the slide lock pin is in front of the barrel lug. Here's why. I have a CM9 and it was impossible for me to get the slide lock pin in front of the barrel lug, either with or without the recoil spring inside. I tried. The barrel always stops before I could ever get it in front of the lug through the slide stop hole. I did have that issue that we had mentioned before where everything sorta got hung up and I had to pull the trigger and work the slide back and forth to get the slide off.

If it's really in front of the barrel lug I sure couldn't duplicate that with my CM9. Maybe there is some small internal difference.

With my gun apart and setting the slide beside the frame I can see where it looks like you should (although you wouldn't want to) be able to get the slide stop pin in front of the barrel lug but I could not get my barrel to go back that far. Not even close. The frame internals stopped it.

I bet we can fix it if we can see some pictures... we'll do all we can.

[JFootin]

Marky, here is a tutorial on using photobucket and posting pictures.
http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=95501&postcount=5

[marky]

The barrel is flush with the slide. The pin is in front of the barrel lug and this is causing the barrel to be stuck in the fully closed position in the slide. I'll try to borrow a camera.

Thanks everyone.

[yqtszhj]

The barrel is flush with the slide. The pin is in front of the barrel lug and this is causing the barrel to be stuck in the fully closed position in the slide. I'll try to borrow a camera.

Thanks everyone.

Oooo.... that's a tough one. I couldn't even get my barrel to go back that far. Is the recoil spring flush with the front of the slide or slightly inside? or is the rod sticking out the front some like when the slide locks open?

hang in there...

[gb6491]

Marky,
Have you tried manipulating the position of the breech end of the barrel to see if that will give the slide any more travel forward? If not, it should be easy enough to push down on the barrel hood, but you will probably need to insert a tool through the magazine well to push the barrel up.
Regards,
Greg

[marky]

The springs are under tension and the guide rod is sticking out about a half inch.

Greg: I tried moving the barrel breach from above and below but it's not going to move. I tried to get it to go down into the gun but the pin is holding it up to the top of the slide. When I pull the slide back I can move the barrel up and down about a hair width and I can hear it hitting the pin. It won't angle up out of the slide either since the front of the barrel is already hitting the slide and the muzzle is hitting the bottom of the slide hole.

[muggsy]

Marky, if the guide rod is protruding a 1/2" you should be able to grab the end of the guide rod with a pair of needle nosed vice grips. I think that from your description the slide release pin is between the barrel and the guide rod flange. By holding the rear of the slide in a smooth jaw vice and pulling forward on the end of the guide rod you should be able to relieve the spring tension on the slide release pin to allow it to be removed. With the tension removed you should be able to align the witness marks on the slide. If this works feel free to donate $5 to my benevolent fund for wayward women. If it doesn't take two asprin and send the gun back to the mother-ship. :)

[Scoundrel]

:popcorn:

[marky]

muggsy: Well I thought you might have had something there. Maybe with the spring pressure off of it the barrel would move. But no, no luck. The barrel doesn't budge.

I think this boils down to the fact that the pin has the barrel locked in place (as Jay says) and there may be no way to get it to move with the pin in. Maybe Jay has a special tool or something.

I guess if I want to take a chance I could press the pin out again and then wedge something between the pin and the lever end. Hopefully the tab would pop out or bend before the slide was harmed but that might not be worth the gamble.

Thanks for your idea and a good laugh. Can I get two wayward women for $10?

Thanks!

[muggsy]

Damn, I thought I had it. I took my CM9 apart and lined up the pieces just as you described. Well, back to the drawing board. BTW, you didn't have to force it together, so you shouldn't have to force it apart. Where there's a will there's a way. Do you own a BFH? :)

[muggsy]

Ok Marky, lets give this one more try. Have you tried to push down on the back of the barrel to disengage it from the slide. If you can, you should be able to move the slice back until the slide stop notch aligns with the slide release and you should be able to push the slide release pin out. Of course, for making me think this hard the benevolent fund must be replenished. This could require a $20 dollar donation. :)

Note If the slide stop pin is forward of the kidney shaped hole you should be able to disengage the barrel from the slide.

[marky]

BFH? Yes, and I'm getting tempted to use it! I certainly didn't force the pin in. It went in too darn easy! You'd think I could just get it where it was when I put the pin in but it's beyond me.

If anyone wants to replicate this I think they could do so safely by inserting the pin in front of the barrel lug but not far enough that the tab goes behind the slide, maybe try it without the springs in.

[marky]

muggsy: Just read your second post. I have tried to move the barrel and it won't budge. The pin has it locked in place. If you think you can do so safely you might try replicating my problem as I mentioned above.

[yqtszhj]

If anyone wants to replicate this I think they could do so safely by inserting the pin in front of the barrel lug but not far enough that the tab goes behind the slide, maybe try it without the springs in.

You know, I tried to duplicate this with my CM9 and couldn't do it the other day with or without the recoil spring. the barrel would not go back far enough. I think there is some difference in the frame of the PM9 (prior version) and my CM9 (only one year old.

I bet that Kahr will buzz the slide release in two, pull out the pieces, and just sell you another one. Feel brave? You could CAREFULLY!!! Dremel it in 2 pieces. :2eek: That's getting risky though.

[CJB]

There's a problem here.

I just got done experimenting with my own PM9.

Unless something was badly forced, it is impossible to get the slide stop pin in front of the barrel lug. The ramp and lug will have to be forced thru the slide in the middle of the frame, badly stressing the frame itself. I could do it... it doesn't take all that much effort, but you'd know there is something not right when you tried to do it.

Somebody else with a PM9 correct me - after trying it yourself - but I think there is a situational problem here, and the the pistol will need a trip to Kahr

[JFootin]

We really need to see some pictures, up close and high definition with plenty of light.

[marky]

Dunno where you are but if you are close enough to me (Atlanta GA) I'll take a look at it.
tv racin fan: Thanks for the offer but I'm in Indiana.

[marky]

yqtszhi: I think you have a solution! When I push out the pin with the vise it comes out an eighth of an inch or so (the length the pin protrudes on the right side) even though the tab doesn't budge. I could put something behind the lever to protect the frame and cut it in the thinnest area. I'd like to wait a while before trying this though. I'm still hoping someone here knows the secret code to unlocking this thing!

TucsonMTB says a new pin is $24.20 plus shipping. Does anyone know how much a round-rip to the factory costs?

I'm still trying to borrow a camera.

[Scoundrel]

The cheapest I've sent a gun back anywhere was $50. A local FFL charged me $20 plus the USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box which was $5 and some change. For a PM9 you might want to go with a Medium Flat Rate Box which is more like $11. The return shipping was $25 (I wrote a check and put it in the box with the gun).

I personally would rather buy a new pin, wait for it to arrive, and then cut the old one.

[Bawanna]

The cheapest I've sent a gun back anywhere was $50. A local FFL charged me $20 plus the USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box which was $5 and some change. For a PM9 you might want to go with a Medium Flat Rate Box which is more like $11. The return shipping was $25 (I wrote a check and put it in the box with the gun).

I personally would rather buy a new pin, wait for it to arrive, and then cut the old one.

I agree except I'd be cutting the pin while I waited and have it ready when the pin arrived.

This is driving me peanuts, I'd like to see a solution here. Cutting the pin sure sounds like a sure solution.

Greg, CJB, all you other smart tech guys, what do you think.

It has to work, the only hang up is the tab, cut the pin close to the lever and it should come out.

Patience isn't my strong suit, I'd of had the big hammer out by now.

[marky]

Thanks Scoundrel, at least it won't be quite as expensive if I get the old pin off.

[Scoundrel]

I agree except I'd be cutting the pin while I waited and have it ready when the pin arrived.
Patience isn't my strong suit, I'd of had the big hammer out by now.

Yeah, me too. It boggles my brain how people can sit on this stuff and wait. That's why I sometimes pay more for stuff than others. I have no patience to sit and wait for a great deal for months in order to save $23 on a $400 purchase.



I'm still hoping someone here knows the secret code to unlocking this thing!

You haven't been around long enough to recognize the names, so I'll let you know that you've already heard from the acknowledged tech-meisters on this forum regarding your issue, and they've told you as much as they can without good photos.

[marky]

Just got a camera from a neighbor (thanks for the instructions JFootin!).

I think you can pretty much see what's going on in one picture. The tab is so close but not close enough to the half-moon cutout. The barrel is fully closed and locked in place. The recoil spring is retracted and the guide rod is sticking out. I can retract the slide so the large cutout is right over the pin but that's no help.

I'm afraid this picture won't be much help either but at least you can see what I'm talking about.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010033.jpg

[Scoundrel]

Can you give us some views from the front and the sides, level with the slide stop pin, and if the flash casts the cut-outs into shadow, maybe a flashlight to light them up?

If you wedged something flat between the slide and frame, and pried it very gently apart, could you create enough of a gap to show us where things are inside?

Also, maybe a shot up the magazine well (with the aid of a flashlight) so we can see what is visible from that angle.

One thing I can very clearly see is that the barrel is WAY further back than it should be. The front of the barrel should be almost lined up with the guide rod. That will mean something to the smarter folks on this forum for sure. I know it's significant, but not why.

[Scoundrel]

I just tried to position my CM9 as closely as possible to what I see in this picture (leaving my slide stop pin out of course), but I can't get it to go there. Some plastic in the frame stops the barrel from going back that far. It starts about 1/4" forward of the front of the frame, and when the slide is fully locked back, the front of the barrel is flush with the front of the frame. I cannot get my barrel to go further back than the front of the frame, no matter how I try to assemble it incorrectly.

I think what this means is that there are differences we've never noticed between the CM9 and PM9 frame, and it effectively puts those of us with CM9s out of the running for comparing ours to yours for troubleshooting.

[marky]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010035.jpgHere's a view up the mag well. You can see how far forward the feed ramp ishttp://http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010035.jpg. With the pin in front of the lug, all the free space that allows the barrel to move has been taken up. You can see the pin tab right above it. I really don't think I can show you much else. There's no space between the slide and frame and I can't see anything else even with the pistol in front of me.

[marky]

I just tried to position my CM9 as closely as possible to what I see in this picture (leaving my slide stop pin out of course), but I can't get it to go there. Some plastic in the frame stops the barrel from going back that far. It starts about 1/4" forward of the front of the frame, and when the slide is fully locked back, the front of the barrel is flush with the front of the frame. I cannot get my barrel to go further back than the front of the frame, no matter how I try to assemble it incorrectly.

I think what this means is that there are differences we've never noticed between the CM9 and PM9 frame, and it effectively puts those of us with CM9s out of the running for comparing ours to yours for troubleshooting.

I would consider that to be an improvement in the CM9. Of course I'm biased but to be able to disable a pistol as easily as I did ought to be considered a design flaw.

[Bawanna]

Well we know for sure that the pin is definitely in front of the barrel lug. It almost looks like the slide needs to move just a nano forward to line up the half moon but that could be camera angle.


I'm also thinking it might be easier to drill out the lever from the pin rather than dremel. It's pretty tight and I can't see cutting it thru without hitting the slide or marking up the frame.

Either that or just try to cut the tab on the lever rather than the pin. That way you could reassemble and test the gun, the take down pin just wouldn't stay in.

This is becoming a personal challenge.

[gb6491]

Marky,
In your photo it looks like there is room for the barrel to move a little more up the breech face.
I'd like to suggest you get a dowel or some other (preferably non marring) instrument, insert it into the mag well, position it on the bottom of the barrel lug, then tap on it with a hammer until the end of the barrel hood is closer to the top of the slide. That might allow the slide to move that fraction of space forward you need to align the tab and notch.
http://i48.tinypic.com/121wtb8.jpg
For reference, here's what my CW9 looks like when the barrel hood is fully seated(your photo in the background). Granted there's not a lot of difference, but it might be enough:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2eltgtu.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[Scoundrel]

Looking through some of these "help" threads, I am sometimes quite surprised by what the tech-meisters pick up from small details that meant nothing to me. If this were my gun, and I had borrowed a camera, and I were looking at having to buy a $25 pin at the least, or possibly pay $50 in shipping _and_ pay Kahr for a replacement pin, I'd take as many different photos from as many angles as I could, regardless of whether I thought they showed anything or not.

I'm not being judgmental or anything, I'm just saying that with this crowd, "more is better". Always. Even if you don't see what good it will do.

Looking at your mag well photo, I don't think the barrel should never go that far back into the magazine area, ever.

Looking at the CM9 frame, I can see how if a small bit of plastic were worn down or not there to begin with, my barrel could move that far back, and then I could put the pin in front of the lug, wedged in place by the recoil spring. Is the right-hand side of your frame bulging at all?

By the way, good job on getting clear photos with enough light to see what's going on in there. I just took some of my CM9 and it ain't easy getting that right.

[steveschu]

I would just take a punch and hammer and pound the slide stop out from the right side. It went in.....it will come out. Be bold!

[CJB]

Personally, I would just ship it back to Kahr, rather than risk damaging the slide and/or frame.


The frame has already been compromised. To get the barrel there... it had to be forced into that spot.

As far as cutting....

On the breech side of the slide stop pin, where it fits into the lever, there is a cross pin.

If you grind (Dremel) right at the back side of the pin itself, you'll get to the cross pin, which should release the slide stop pin from the slide stop lever. The cross pin is in a blind hole... so there's no taking it out the easy way. Roughly 1/4 of the diameter of the slide stop in, on the lever side needs to be removed, but not very deep, avoiding getting things fubar'd on the way.

BUT.... then you still have to deal with how the barrel got forced through the slot in the frame.... so..... factory trip might be better.

[TucsonMTB]

I would just take a punch and hammer and pound the slide stop out from the right side. It went in.....it will come out. Be bold!
There is a small piece of metal sticking up on the rear portion of the slide stop lever. If you pound hard enough, it might break off before it damaged the slide. But, I suspect you would damage the plastic frame. Sure, the gun would probably still work "OK", but it might be a little ugly, at least on the inside. http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejustsomeguy/icon_lol.gif

[Scoundrel]

I took some reference photos of the CM9 with the slide locked back, the slide forward, and what the frame looks like. Anyone with a PM9 want to do the same?

The red circles show the bit of plastic that keeps the barrel from moving that far back in mine.

[gb6491]

The frame has already been compromised. To get the barrel there... it had to be forced into that spot.

As far as cutting....

On the breech side of the slide stop pin, where it fits into the lever, there is a cross pin.

If you grind (Dremel) right at the back side of the pin itself, you'll get to the cross pin, which should release the slide stop pin from the slide stop lever. The cross pin is in a blind hole... so there's no taking it out the easy way. Roughly 1/4 of the diameter of the slide stop in, on the lever side needs to be removed, but not very deep, avoiding getting things fubar'd on the way.

BUT.... then you still have to deal with how the barrel got forced through the slot in the frame.... so..... factory trip might be better.
LOL, I just finished drawing this up:
http://i47.tinypic.com/20l1i7c.jpg
Color me in agreement that there is a problem with the frame on this pistol.

Nice photos Scoundrel!:)

Regards,
Greg

[marky]

Marky,
In your photo it looks like there is room for the barrel to move a little more up the breech face.
I'd like to suggest you get a dowel or some other (preferably non marring) instrument, insert it into the mag well, position it on the bottom of the barrel lug, then tap on it with a hammer until the end of the barrel hood is closer to the top of the slide. That might allow the slide to move that fraction of space forward you need to align the tab and notch.
http://i48.tinypic.com/121wtb8.jpg
For reference, here's what my CW9 looks like when the barrel hood is fully seated(your photo in the background). Granted there's not a lot of difference, but it might be enough:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2eltgtu.jpg
Regards,
Greg

Greg: You have a sharp eye! In this configuration the barrel actually drops down a hair. But I'm afraid moving it up doesn't make a noticeable difference. I even tried getting it to move further up by hitting it from below but the barrel is already contacting the slide right in front of the hood.

[marky]

Photobucket let me upload one more picture,http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010036.jpg then it started giving me error messages. I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks everyone!

[marky]

Everyone: I just want to make it clear that the pin was not forced in. The maddening thing about this is I had no clue anything was wrong until the pin was fully in and I saw the slide was still retracted. Although I hadn't done anything with this pistol for over a year I used it plenty before then. I also have other pistols with similar pins that I currently use and I know what undue force is. I'm surprised by the comments that the frame has to be damaged. As Jay says, the barrel and slide are locked together, but that has nothing to do with the frame. I may send it home in the end, but it won't be because I think I've done internal damage. I wanted to point this out because something may as well be learned by my Darwin moment!

Thanks all!

[Scoundrel]

We're saying that we think there's frame damage because the barrel is clearly out of position in the frame, there is usually a bit of the frame keeping it from going there, and we don't know how it could have gotten there without one of two things going on:

1. The bit of frame that normally prevents the barrel from getting back there is worn away, or broken off. It's unlikely, but a possible manufacturing defect that just came to light.

2. It was pushed past that bit of plastic. We think that it would take a fair bit of force to get it there. We're not talking about the pin at this point, we're talking about the barrel/slide, locked together, getting around that plastic hump. I just found a picture of a PM9 frame, and it looks the same as the CM9 in regards to that hump of plastic (see below).

However that barrel lug managed to get past that hump, that's where it is now, and we think that there must be some damage to allow that to happen. Maybe the damage happened earlier, and maybe it happened during assembly.
We don't know, and we're not accusing you of Kahr abuse. We're just putting forth our best guess based on the information available to us.

Once the barrel got into that position, I can see how the pin might have gone in without undue force, and then something clicked into a position that won't allow it to come back out.

I suppose it's possible to somehow get it in there wrong without damaging it/forcing it, since Kahr saw fit to write in the manual that one should ensure that the pin does not miss the cutout in the barrel lug, we just can't figure out how it could happen.


If it were my gun, I'd do this:

1. Order a new slide stop pin and wait for it to arrive.
2. Drill/Dremel the slide stop pin into pieces and remove it.
3. Try and wiggle the barrel/slide off.
4. Inspect everything carefully, with much Google image searching for comparison.
5. Assemble everything, do a lot of racking and manual cycling of rounds, along with some dry firing with and without snap caps.
6. Take it to the range.


Good luck to you!


PM9 Frame:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt57/Neko1911/IMG_4699.jpg

[Scoundrel]

Nice photos Scoundrel!:)

Thank you! I took about 30 of them. These are the ones that made the cut. ;)

[gb6491]

Well marky, just some thoughts here:
As the slide and barrel sit now they have to move as a unit.
To get the slide to move forward to a point that the rear notch and tab would line up, the barrel and slide would have to climb over the slide stop pin. I don't think that's going to happen.
Moving as a unit to the rear, the barrel will contact the ejector before the slide has moved far enough to line up the forward notch and the tab. However, if you were able to force the barrel lower into the frame, far enough to unlock it from the slide, you might be able to move the slide back far enough to align the forward notch and slide stop tab. You said in an earlier post that you "can move the slide back about a half inch and that's it" (I'm guessing the barrel moves with it). Is that the position it's in for the photo looking up through the mag well? If not, push the slide back slightly short of that half inch and, while holding it there, try to force the barrel down in to the frame (it will flex a little) enough that that the slide and barrel unlock. If you can get it to unlock, push the slide to the rear and try to align the tab and forward notch. You might need an extra hand to accomplish this.;)
Regards,
Greg

[CJB]

LOL, I just finished drawing this up:
http://i48.tinypic.com/28041e1.jpg
Color me in agreement that there is a problem with the frame on this pistol.

Nice photos Scoundrel!:)

Regards,
Greg

You the location of the cross pin... no drill... grind. Drill will wander, and the slide stop pin itself is harder than billy-snot... undrillable.

[yqtszhj]

Hey, This is looks like a PM9j (Jocko version.) Let's get jocko to try and do his like this. I mean it's got 32,000+ rounds through it anyway so it's seen a good life, just sayin. :)

[jocko]

ol jocko is waching this scenario play out, but I will say short of sending it back cutting the slide stop lever off should allow the pin to be driven out either side. ne better be damn careful a sligh slip and u have a marked slide or a marked frame.

Idoubtif a drill willtouch that pin . The forged slide stop has a very high proprietary steel pin unlike the MIM slide stop which I do think is drillable. Certainly wold have to be set up good in a drill press to not fokk up other things. Just sayin. Some of u guys like GB are fixers and CJB also. If ur not in that league, I think kahr needs to look at it. Hate to say that, but it is not the guns fault, so any further damage will be on ur dime also..

[marky]

Well marky, just some thoughts here:
As the slide and barrel sit now they have to move as a unit.
To get the slide to move forward to a point that the rear notch and tab would line up, the barrel and slide would have to climb over the slide stop pin. I don't think that's going to happen.
Moving as a unit to the rear, the barrel will contact the ejector before the slide has moved far enough to line up the forward notch and the tab. However, if you were able to force the barrel lower into the frame, far enough to unlock it from the slide, you might be able to move the slide back far enough to align the forward notch and slide stop tab. You said in an earlier post that you "can move the slide back about a half inch and that's it" (I'm guessing the barrel moves with it). Is that the position it's in for the photo looking up through the mag well? If not, push the slide back slightly short of that half inch and, while holding it there, try to force the barrel down in to the frame (it will flex a little) enough that that the slide and barrel unlock. If you can get it to unlock, push the slide to the rear and try to align the tab and forward notch. You might need an extra hand to accomplish this.;)
Regards,
Greg

Greg: The barrel and slide are locked together as a unit no matter the slide position. I can't get the barrel any lower than you noticed in the picture. It really just moves enough that I can hear it hitting the pin when I move the barrel up and down.

[gb6491]

You the location of the cross pin... no drill... grind. Drill will wander, and the slide stop pin itself is harder than billy-snot... undrillable.
You are absolutely correct. I was thinking my carbide bits would do the job, but I just tried them on the end of the pin (was going to grind the end down some anyway) and they wouldn't do the job:o. I'm going to edit my original post to remove the drill portion of the photo text (LOL,do I get any brownie points for at least having included grind there?). Would you mind editing the original photo out of your post, so as to avoid any confusion and to let it fade into internet oblivion (if a spider hasn't crawled it already)?
Thanks,
Greg

[marky]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010039.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010037.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010038.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010040.jpg

Here are a few more pictures. Maybe someone can save them in a "DON'T DO THIS" file.

The dust you see on the gun came from a rag I was using to cover the gun when I had it in a vise. Didn't realize the rag was dirty until I got dust all over the gun.

[gb6491]

Greg: The barrel and slide are locked together as a unit no matter the slide position. I can't get the barrel any lower than you noticed in the picture. It really just moves enough that I can hear it hitting the pin when I move the barrel up and down.
Ok then, I was hoping you could move them back enough that the barrel lug was completely over the mag well and that would give you enough room to force the barrel down.
Regards,
Greg

BTW, if decide to cut that lever, buy yourself a an inexpensive set ($3 at Harbor Freight) of feeler gauges, then find the thickest one you can get between the stop and frame/slide (you'll probably have to cut it to fit) and leave it in there while making the cut to give the frame/slide a little protection (I'd heavily tape everything else).

[yqtszhj]

btw, if decide to cut that lever, buy yourself a an inexpensive set ($3 at harbor freight) of feeler gauges, then find the thickest one you can get between the stop and frame/slide (you'll probably have to cut it to fit) and leave it in there while making the cut to give the frame/slide a little protection (i'd heavily tape everything else).

excellent suggestion. ;)

[muggsy]

Marky, I was trying to simulate your problem using a piece of drill rod as a pin and there was no way that I could get the barrel to move far enough to the rear to get the pin in front of the barrel. Under normal circumstances the barrel only moves about 1/4" to the rear before the pin causes the barrel to cam down. Even with the pin out there is no way to get the barrel to move rearward more than a 1/4". If I were you I'd send the gun back to Kahr. It may need anew frame.

[CJB]

Thats what I been sayin!

[marky]

Well maybe I will send it in. Not going to save much money if I have to buy a new slide stop. Wish I had sold this pistol instead of putting it away.

[Scoundrel]

I'm sure someone on this forum would pick it up from you if you want to wash your hands of it.

[gb6491]

It may need a new frame. The barrel could also be candidate for replacement.
Regards,
Greg

[marky]

I don't mean to disparage the PM9. I'm just very frustrated right now. It's actually a great pistol and worked fine for me. I originally bought it for ED pocket carry since I wore a tucked in shirt. I worked in an anti-gun business and I just worried about it printing too much and went to something smaller. Maybe when it comes home I'll try carrying it again. I recently retired and don't have to worry about losing my job for legally carrying.

I emailed Jay today but he's on vacation this week so I'll arrange something next week. If anyone thinks of something to try in the meantime we can still experiment with it. Thanks so much for everyone's help. I'll be sure let you know what the verdict is when it comes back.

Seriously, make sure the pin goes through the barrel lug hole!

[muggsy]

If the frame failed and you are the original owner, I'd be willing to bet that Kahr will replace the frame at no charge provided that the gun was not abused. Kahr stands behind their products.

[marky]

After putting the gun away and thinking about it for a while I decided to go ahead and cut the slide stop. http://http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010055.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010055.jpg

I took Greg’s suggestion and cut out the little retaining pin holding the tab to the larger pin. After I cut it out I still needed to use a punch to separate the larger pin from of the tab. If I had it to do over I would have tried using the punch earlier on. I may not have needed to cut as much as I did.

Here is the slide back on and no pressure being applied. You can see I only need to retract the slide a quarter inch for the pin to go through the opening in the barrel lug.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010053.jpg

I think what happened was, I tried to put the pin in by lining up the notches. You can see in this position that the front of the barrel lug is centered in the opening.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010056.jpg

I imagine I was trying to work the pin in and pulled back the slide a little more which put the lug completely behind the opening and allowed the pin to easily go in. I then compounded the error by pulling the slide back even farther so the flange went in through the slide-stop cut-out.

I tried putting the pin in wrong again and it was all too easy to do. Except for pulling the slide back so far, it took no more effort than if I had done it the right way. It’s the little flange on the tab that caused the problem. It was catching on something when I tried to retract the slide, although I couldn’t tell what. With just the pin in I could pull the slide all the way back. I don’t see any damage.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/marcopolo2_2006/P1010057.jpg

I may not even replace the slide stop unless I start carrying it again. The pin and tab still have a tight fit. I had to use the punch to get them apart again after I replicated the problem. I think I might just put some JB Weld on it.

I decided to do this since I was confident I hadn’t damaged anything by forcing the pin in. I have fired the gun and it does fine. I have no explanation for why this can’t be duplicated by others. Thanks for everyone’s help. I hope my experience helps someone in the future.

[Scoundrel]

Glad to hear you got it apart without paying for shipping, and that the important parts don't seem to be damaged!


I may not even replace the slide stop unless I start carrying it again. The pin and tab still have a tight fit. I had to use the punch to get them apart again after I replicated the problem. I think I might just put some JB Weld on it.

I have fired the gun and it does fine.

At $20 or so for a new slide stop pin, it seems to me like it would be a no-brainer to have it back the way it is supposed to be from the factory.
I'd be worried that the JB Weld would come loose and the pin would do something I didn't want.

[jocko]

indeed replace the slide stop pin, for $20 not worth it . I canassure u, U will never do that again.. U did well in what u did to...

[marky]

Yes, I'll probably go ahead and order a new slide stop. Maybe I can think of something else I can order at the same time.

[jocko]

Marky. I wonder if even u could have driven that slide stop pin out without even cuttig the retaining pin. A good pointed punch just on the pin and a good solid hit, do u think it might have road past that little retaining pin..

[Scoundrel]

Marky. I wonder if even u could have driven that slide stop pin out without even cuttig the retaining pin. A good pointed punch just on the pin and a good solid hit, do u think it might have road past that little retaining pin..

If he'd done that, the little flange on the front of the lever might have damaged something on the way out. Cutting the lever to weaken its grip on the pin before punching it out was best, IMHO.

[marky]

Jocko, I originally typed in that someone might want to try the punch first but I erased it for fear of giving bad advice. You can see the lip on the large pin that the little pin sits under is not that wide. But that lip would have to bend for the large pin to be punched out of the lever. I don't know how hard that would be. I actually ground off the lip that was over the little pin. I wanted to show an in tact view of the lip so you could see how wide it is. The punch idea would require both ends of the lever being supported. Supporting the pin end would be tricky. The stress would be on the plastic frame. Unless someone planned to reuse the slide stop, I think cutting would be safer.

Anyone with a drill press could probably drill out the retaining pin. It's maybe brass?

[marky]

indeed replace the slide stop pin, for $20 not worth it . I canassure u, U will never do that again.. U did well in what u did to...


Thanks Jocko! You bet I'll never do that again. It's a good example of what happens if you put your toys away and never play with them!

[jocko]

ust inquirng, but ur probably right, alot of stress would beon the polymer frame.I guess the best advice is TO PAY ATTENTION. I gotta give u alot of credit, u did what GB and others suggested and made it work. beats sendingit back but please do get a new slide stop lever..

[marky]

Will do, Jocko, Thanks!

[yqtszhj]

Excellent fix. Congratulations. I had been wondering how it worked out.