Who Else Here Has a PM9 and PM40? (Anyone Shot Them Back to Back?)

[B18C5 Tom]

First topic on the Kahr forum here,so here goes...

I'll try not to post a lengthy story, but essentially I'm asking who here owns both a PM9 and a PM40, or even who has owned both.

A few questions:

1. Why did you get one of each?

2. When firing them how much harder is the felt recoil on the PM40?

3. Which one do you carry more often?

4. Do you have any reliability problems with either?

Even if you've not owned both have any of you shot both in the same range trip for an extended amount of time? If so how much worse is the felt recoil of the PM40?

Reason I ask these questions is I purchased a PM9 for my wife a few months ago, and since I've been carrying it until she gets her firearms license. Since I've been carrying it I've pretty much had no desire to carry my daily carry, a Glock 39. The Kahr's weight, dimensions, and slimness have won me over. She'll have her license within a month or so,and we had briefly discussed buying me my own Kahr.

I'd kicked different Kahr models around from the CW9 all the way up to the PM45, and had pretty much decided to get another 9mm...that is until my wife told me she'd already bought me an all black PM40.

To be honest the PM40 wasn't really on my radar because of all the bad things I've read about them (mainly in discussions circa 2007-2008) reliability wise, and felt recoil wise.

I've not even shot the PM40 yet (gotta buy ammo) so I guess I'm just a little anxious to shoot a .40 S&W from such a tiny, thin polymer framed pistol.

Also for you PM40ers what carry ammo seems to dulldown the felt recoil/muzzle flip? I've read elsewhere that 155-165gr is sort of the "sweet spot" weight for .40 S&W and that lighter loads tend to have more felt recoil. Any truth to this?

Any first hand accounts will greatly help. I'm used to shooting my Glock 39 in.45 GAP and it honestly feels 100% controllable, so maybe I'm getting psyched out over nothing.

[jocko]

lots of Inof alreadyon this forum for the Pm40 and PM9, go tto the forum section and hit on the PM threads. u will proably find allyou need..

[swampman]

Hi Tom,
Here is my opinion on the "Felt Recoil " issue. I keep seeing this on multiple threads in these forums.
YES.... a bigger, more powerful round is going to have MORE of a kick ! It is also throwing a bigger chuck of lead at the bad guy. And, hopefully it will knock the crap out of him better than a small chunk of lead will. If you want a light recoiling gun for accurate target shooting, then go get a match grade target pistol. On the other hand if your goal is self defense , and you want to STOP a threat, while inflicting the most damage, destruction, & pain as you can to it. Then MAN UP , suck up the little sting to the hand, and send a big ass piece of lead hurling at the bad-guy. KAHRS are small, self defense pistols. Great for concealed carry, AT CLOSE RANGES.
To me the main point of self defense & concealed carry is to STOP THE THREAT on the spot as fast as possible.
OR ....to at least hold off the threat, until you can go get a really BIG ASS gun and go-all Clint Eastwood on their rear ends. LOL.........................RY
+1 on that ryoung,all pistol self defense calibers are controlable,I have a ruger super redhawk in .454 casull and even it is controlable although I dont use the .454 for conceal carry:)

[B18C5 Tom]

I appreciate the input thus far guys.

As far as .40 and 9mm go yes of course the .40 will have more kick - I understand this much.

I've shot plenty of .40 caliber pistols, 9mm luger, 9mm Makarov, .45 GAP (I own one), .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, .22LR, .38 special, and even .50 AE from a Desert Eagle - I get the concept of larger bullet = potential for more kinetic energy and recoil in similarly sized pistols. I'm no expert by any means, but I do get the idea that the .40 will kick more than the 9mm generally speaking.

I also know there's not really a tangible way to measure and compare "hard numbers" of "felt recoil statistics" but I'm looking for a pretty specific set of answers to some pretty specific questions.

I figured what better place to ask such specific Q's than an actual Kahr forum? I'm just trying to see who might own one of each or shoot them regularly enough to provide some insight as to how much more tolerable the 9mm version is than the .40 S&W.

I did a search for both model names, but I didn't see anything specifically adressing my questions. I didn't see any topics where someone said "hey I own a PM9 and a PM40 and let me tell you..."

Thanks again in advance for any insight any of you could offer.

[peterj]

Tom,

I own a PM9 and just today I went and shot a PM40 with the 9. I was expecting a big difference in perceived recoil (reason I bought the 9). There was a noticable difference but not nearly as much recoil as I expected from a small firearm.

That being said, would I have bought the 40 over the 9? I'm still undecided at this point. Part of me wishes I had, part of me says I'm very happy with the 9.

No doubt the 9 is easier on the hands and easier for follow up shots. I would rate the recoil on the 40 as about 50% more than the 9.

I felt that the recoil of the PM40 was about as snappy as my Glock 27 but with the thinner grip, I felt it more in the webbing of my hand.

[jeep45238]

Hi Tom,
Here is my opinion on the "Felt Recoil " issue. I keep seeing this on multiple threads in these forums.
YES.... a bigger, more powerful round is going to have MORE of a kick ! It is also throwing a bigger chuck of lead at the bad guy. And, hopefully it will knock the crap out of him better than a small chunk of lead will. If you want a light recoiling gun for accurate target shooting, then go get a match grade target pistol. On the other hand if your goal is self defense , and you want to STOP a threat, while inflicting the most damage, destruction, & pain as you can to it. Then MAN UP , suck up the little sting to the hand, and send a big ass piece of lead hurling at the bad-guy. KAHRS are small, self defense pistols. Great for concealed carry, AT CLOSE RANGES.
To me the main point of self defense & concealed carry is to STOP THE THREAT on the spot as fast as possible.
OR ....to at least hold off the threat, until you can go get a really BIG ASS gun and go-all Clint Eastwood on their rear ends. LOL.........................RY

While I agree that if you're fighting for your life, it's time to put on the man-pants and grab the gun, point the gun, and fire the gun, as fast as you can while hitting the target.

The problem lies in practicing for that, and that the body of a human that's determined to kill you will likely not be stopped by a few handgun rounds, regardless the caliber.

I have yet to see a single report where a perp. continued to fight after getting hit with a 9mm, but would have been killed by a .45acp. I also have yet to see a report where soembody was killed with a .45acp, but wouldn't have been killed with a 9mm. Heck, I've read reports of people taking 17 .40 Gold Dots out of a Glock 22 center of mass, 22 shots total, and kept fighting the cop. He finally lost enough blood to pass out after 5 minutes.


Officer Down - The Peter Soulis Incident (http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html)


Simply put, where you can put the round matters in handguns, not so much the caliber. If a person can not shoot accurately, quickly, with a .40 or .45, but they can with a 9x19 or a .380 in their chosen platform, then BY ALL MEANS CARRY IT AND PRACTICE WITH IT. I would much rather see somebody be able to dump 3 well placed 9mm shots into the target in 1/2 of a second, than put their first .45ACP into the target and have the second two miss, especially if it takes them 1.5 seconds to shoot of those 3 rounds.

Rifle rounds tear **** up though ;)

[jocko]

1/2 second for 3 rounds IMO is really moving. I can't do it that is for sure, let alone have all 3 in COM either. Now 1.5 seconds for 3 placed rounds sounds reasonable. I personally think I will do better at 1.5 secnds for 3 shots than most ever will at 1/2 second for 3 rounds. And I can't hit jack sh-t.

[swampman]

I think fast follow up shots,like night sights is highly over rated. :eek:

[jeep45238]

I certainly know that I can't fire 3 aimed shots in 1/2 a second with my T40 - but it was not designed for that either, none of the Kahrs were, and I'm sure there's some people out there who could do it with a gun like the Kahr series. For a concealed defensive gun, it's a design that's hard to beat in my eyes.

That said, there's a reason why my personal primary carry gun is a full size single action gun - it was designed for warfare, and I can achieve sub .2 second split times with it.

[B18C5 Tom]

Thanks so much for the replies guys.

I figured I might as well post a few shots of the PM40 (and the PM9):

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/PM40/IMG_5422.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/KahrPM9Artsy.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/PM40/IMG_5448.jpg

...and someone compared the recoil of the PM40 to that of a Glock 27, so I'm good with that seeing as how i also own a .45 GAP Glock 39:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/G391Pearce.jpg

I got some Remington UMC 180gr practice ammo today for $17.00/50 rounds for a total of 200 rounds for the break-in. Now I'm debating on my defense ammo. I've heard/read that 155-165gr seems to be the magic number for less felt recoil, so maybe the Remington Golden Saber in 165gr will do the trick?

[swampman]

congratulations B18c5Tom,I have an mk40 and a pm40,I've been using Winchester 155 gr. silver tips for the last 10 yrs.

[jocko]

I certainly know that I can't fire 3 aimed shots in 1/2 a second with my T40 - but it was not designed for that either, none of the Kahrs were, and I'm sure there's some people out there who could do it with a gun like the Kahr series. For a concealed defensive gun, it's a design that's hard to beat in my eyes.

That said, there's a reason why my personal primary carry gun is a full size single action gun - it was designed for warfare, and I can achieve sub .2 second split times with it.

about that, I thought you were saying you could put 3 shots on target in 1/2 second. Now that I reread it, I realize more what you said. Yes indeed, I am not even sure of one can pull the trigger systen on a kahr 3 times in 1/2 second, shooting anywhere and at that I just can't see all 3 shots being where they should be either. No doubt some can do it but we weekend shooters or non professional shooters sure ain't gonna do it.

I think sometimes we over estimate our abilities via this MACHO man thing and we also way over estimate the BG abilities also. to me the bottom line of personal defense is the element of SURPRISE, that heh sucker I got a gun and I damn well know how to use it. A BG really doesn't want to get into a shoot out or screw with an armed person, He know percentages are with him that most never carry, so why push the envelope.

again jeep sorry I mis read your post. I thought there for a moment that MATT DILLON was still alive..:19:

[jocko]

you know the weird thing to me is..................

Most every brand of pistol on the market is blue or black. You have to upgrade and pay more for a stainless steel version.

Kahr on the other hand has figured a way to charge people more for the black version. Just seems kinda bass-ackwards to me.
Lol.......................................ry

marketing:19::19:

[Frankhenrylee]

I haven't shot buckets of ammo, but one round imparticular I noticed as being smoother on recoil was the old PMC Starfire. Can't find them new anymore, not sure why. I have seen them at gun shows and Am looking for some of the 155's right now. Maybe someone on here knows what the newer version is called. You can always go with the low recoil rounds from Federal, they're 135's. I figure the size of the hole is mainly what matters. They are all going to penetrate well enough I suppose.

[B18C5 Tom]

I purchased 200 rounds of Remington UMC 180gr from my local D.i.c.k's (haha language filter *** the name of the store lol)sporting goods store for $77.00 inc. tax.

I then took the PM40 apart to clean any packing grease/oil and lube it to my liking (hehe) only to find that my barrel's nickel coating was already flaked off just inside the throat of the barrel, just beyond the feed ramp:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/PM40/FlakeyBest-Copy.jpg

I posted this in the PM9 barrel flaking dedicated topic, but figured anyone looking for PM40-specific info might not bother clicking a PM9 topic.

I sent the barrel back to Kahr for evaluation, but based on the experiences posted by others I expect a new barrel early next week.

Bottom line?

I still haven't been able to shoot my PM40. I'll be sure to post a range report just as soon as I do get to shoot it.

[wyntrout]

marketing:19::19:

It's more than marketing -- if the slide/gun was regular steel, an upgrade to SS warrants a bit more green as this alloy is harder to machine.

If the slide/gun is SS to begin with, the DLC treatment is definitely worth more as it is a "high-tech" process and improves the durability and hardness of the SS. The Rockwell hardness goes from 28-30 to about 90 -- whatever that means in additional hardness.

It's just plain sexier, too. "Black is Beautiful" and it's true that "if you try black (DLC -- <snicker>), you'll never go back!" Of course, some people like shiny things and aren't worried about the weapon being covert.

Wynn:D

[tomwalshco]

Tommy, I feel your pain. Ask a simple question like I've been thinking about getting a Ford pickup and can't decide on a V6 or a V8 and you'll get a bunch of comments like - never owned a Ford, or a Chevy for that matter, but I drove a hemi Dodge once and I'll tell you what, when you're driving to California in a rain storm, blah, blah, blah....

Any excuse to preach.

I've considered the same. If I can't practice and get proficient with a gun because it's too painful to shoot at the range, why bother? I switched from a Kel-Tec P3AT to a Kahr P380 because shooting the KT was just too punishing and I couldn't get confident with it. I'll let Chuck Norris carry it. Same reason I don't wear wool t-shirts. They might be OK for the Pope....

[WMD]

I guess I agree with the jeepster.... Caliber is not as important as placement. For that reason I carry different calibers depending on the situation. The calibers I carry include: 22LR, 25, 357, 9mm, 45acp. I can hit very well with each of these guns.

The 22 is a 5 shot NA derringer and is very convenient when wearing shorts and T-shirt.

I have shot the PM40. It does have some recoil and would require getting used to. it would not be a fun gun to practice with IMO. The one I shot functioned perfectly although...., after putting 50 rounds through it, my hand got tired and I actually "limp wristed" it. For carry purposes however, it would be a fine gun. It is as accurate as my PM9 and worked flawlessly.

My favorite gun to carry is the PM9 however. It is smaller then a 40 and although not as large a caliber, it is plenty large enough to take out a bad guy (again IMO). The PM9 seems to have the right size to allow concealed carry in most types of clothing I wear. The recoil is very manageable and the accuracy is right on the money. My wife even liked the PM9 and she is a wheel gun person. I would be very happy if we both carried PM9's. That would make it easier when on the range practicing and using the same ammo. From a defensive point of view, it also may make sense if we both had the same caliber and magazines if we ever needed to defend our humble home.

Just my 25 cents! ;-)

[jocko]

agree WMD just kinda hard to beat the 9mm in any gun make, and the PM9 for me is the cats nuts. I love to shoot what I own, and 25,800 rounds out of my PM9 knda indicates that to. Not sure I could or would want to do that with a PM40. It is a very hot caliber and in such a small, lightweight gun like the PM40, you just gotta expect to feel it more. I feel I can do with my 9 what I could do with a 40. Might just be my mindset to.

[Bawanna]

agree WMD just kinda har dto beat the 9mm in any gun make, and the PM9 for me is the cats nuts. I love to shoot what I own, and 25,800 rounds out of my PM9 knda indicates that to. Not sure I could or would want to do that with a PM40. It is a very bhot caliber and in such a small, lightweight gun like the PM40, you just gotta expect to feel it more. I feel I can do with my 9 what I could do with a 40. Might just be my mindset to.

I'd rather throw bricks than pepples but even a 22 is way better than the 45 you left in the glove box or drawer at home. I agree that the PM9 could very well be the "cats nuts?" can he say that? Nice size.
I also again agree that the 40 in that small a package is a handful. I have a K40 and I gotta belive the tupperware version would be a bucker for sure.

[WMD]

I'd rather throw bricks than pepples but even a 22 is way better than the 45 you left in the glove box or drawer at home. I agree that the PM9 could very well be the "cats nuts?" can he say that? Nice size.
I also again agree that the 40 in that small a package is a handful. I have a K40 and I gotta belive the tupperware version would be a bucker for sure.



Oh Bawanna...... Your killing me..... "The tupperware version....."

I never laughed so hard in my life! I never heard that before. :D :D

[Bawanna]

Oh Bawanna...... Your killing me..... "The tupperware version....."

I never laughed so hard in my life! I never heard that before. :D :D

I'm so glad! Another good day.

[B18C5 Tom]

Just an update:

STILL have not had a chance to go to the range. I've been very ill for about three weeks now, and with an upper respiratory infection coupled with chemical burns in my trachea/lungs it'd be hard to justify going to the firing range when I've missed about a week of work.

I've got 300 rounds of Remington UMC .40 waiting to be delivered through the brand new, polished barrel Kahr Arms sent me to replace my flakey one.

:D