Are We Training Like Our Life Depended On It?

[Russ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuUH_R3CAgM


Recently, I have been trying to train shooting more like the person in the youtube video link and for a real life and death situation I believe this is our best option.

I will admit it is a little unorthodox, but if your goal is survival I can attest his method works and for me it has been the most accurate when you want to get lead down range quickly.

Night sights, lasers and my XS Big Dot sights are nice but the more I observe others at the range the more I am convinced most including myself are not training for what would actually take place if we found ourselves in a real gun fight.

I welcome comments after watching the video.

Russ

[muggsy]

This is how they trained the military in 1942. My dad taught me to shoot instinctively with a handgun when I was about 10 years old back in 1956. I'm still fairly good at it though my eye aren't quite as good as they used to be. Damn bifocals. :) Don't care for the cup and saucer two hand grip used back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro7N7dAmjLY

[Russ]

This is how they trained the military in 1942. My dad taught me to shoot instinctively with a handgun when I was about 10 years old back in 1956. I'm still fairly good at it though my eye aren't quite as good as they used to be. Damn bifocals. :) Don't care for the cup and saucer two hand grip used back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro7N7dAmjLY

Muggsy

Thank you I enjoyed watching the video. I wish my range allowed me to replicate the exercises on the video.

I especially enjoyed the proper grip locking wrist and elbow and pivot at the shoulder. It really made sense.

Russ

[chrish]

There is a technique called C.A.R. invented by an ex-Brit named Paul Castle (passed away now). It's been discussed here some, I might have even started one of the threads...don't recall. But I started reading up on it and watching some videos by folks that continue to use this technique. It's kinda related (and not) to what this video is suggesting (good video by the way IMO).

But C.A.R. is a combination of up close, no time to even raise your weapon, using your body as a blocking mechanism while you simultaneous draw, point, shoot (almost from the hip). The other part is a raised 'point shooting' with the gun extremely close to your face. I've tried it some at the range when nobody else is around. I suck at it. Feels unnatural and kinda scary, but makes sense for the purpose.

I agree w/ the point being made here though, which is life and death is not going to be target shooting. I have really been trying to even not compensate for my cross dominance lately. I used to cock my head. Have always shot with both eyes open when using a handgun. But under stress I'm not going to think to cock my head and aim. I feel like I need to be proficient at 7-10yds hitting 'minute of man' body/head shots without aiming and without necessarily raising the gun completely.

Can't do it yet. Still trying. Yippee, more range time!

[7shot]

Great video...I have an outdoor range about 45 min away that allows you to draw and fire your weapon. I need to go and try it out. This type of shooting technic would be so beneficial, probably take a lot of practice to master. But just think of all the fun range time you'd get.:59:

[TheTman]

According to Frontsight Firearms Academy, they can train you to draw your weapon from concealment and place a round between the BG's eyebows and mustache in about 1.75 seconds, using your sights. Point shooting is great but also the reason they have 20 or 30 bullets flying around and not hitting their target. Not so great if you are a bystander. I think I'd rather take a bit longer and use the sights or laser and know where my bullet was headed. I didn't see any instructor certificates on the guys wall and chances are he's never been in a gunfight. So he is just guessing at how things ae going to happen. I'll take my chances with aimed fire. Worked well for Wyatt Earp.

[Barth]

According to Frontsight Firearms Academy, they can train you to draw your weapon from concealment and place a round between the BG's eyebows and mustache in about 1.75 seconds, using your sights. Point shooting is great but also the reason they have 20 or 30 bullets flying around and not hitting their target. Not so great if you are a bystander. I think I'd rather take a bit longer and use the sights or laser and know where my bullet was headed. I didn't see any instructor certificates on the guys wall and chances are he's never been in a gunfight. So he is just guessing at how things ae going to happen. I'll take my chances with aimed fire. Worked well for Wyatt Earp.

+1
We have all heard of gunfights at close range where both parties empty high cap guns and hit nothing.
Adrenalin dumps producing spray and pray seem fairly common.

Controlled aimed fire, done quickly, seems more effective to me.
Training, training, training for smooth, natural, fluid moments and controlled fire is my objective.

[les strat]

I have friends that do drills, rolling in the dirt, yadayada. It's pretty cool. I personally am not training in in a military-type fashion, but I do practice draw, point and shoot, and precise shooting as well. I also try to stay as familiar with my main SD weapons as possible.

[knkali]

I do not train this way. I train to get a flash sight picture with both eyes open. While instictive/point shooting is out there, it isnt for me. I have tried both. IMHO there is no substitute for the bang. Use real ammo in your real SD gun. Train in the cold, heat, mud, evening, day ect from concealment. The livingroom is not the ideal location to train IMHO.

[muggsy]

Great video...I have an outdoor range about 45 min away that allows you to draw and fire your weapon. I need to go and try it out. This type of shooting technic would be so beneficial, probably take a lot of practice to master. But just think of all the fun range time you'd get.:59:

It doesn't take as much practice time as you might think. It's kind of like learning to ride a bike. Once the training wheels come off your on your way. How long did it take you to learn to hit a clay pigeon with a shotgun? Just point and shoot. Start from three yards and work your way out. It's so easy even Jocko could do it. :)

[muggsy]

According to Frontsight Firearms Academy, they can train you to draw your weapon from concealment and place a round between the BG's eyebows and mustache in about 1.75 seconds, using your sights. Point shooting is great but also the reason they have 20 or 30 bullets flying around and not hitting their target. Not so great if you are a bystander. I think I'd rather take a bit longer and use the sights or laser and know where my bullet was headed. I didn't see any instructor certificates on the guys wall and chances are he's never been in a gunfight. So he is just guessing at how things ae going to happen. I'll take my chances with aimed fire. Worked well for Wyatt Earp.

There are guys who will place two shots center mass faster than you can blink your eyes let alone acquire your sights. They do it from slightly above hip high. They clear, rotate and fire. Bang, bang, your dead. Just sayin.

[muggsy]

I don't know Flick personally, but I know that he knows what he's talking about. Been there, done that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcRQ1J-GilE&lr=1

[knkali]

There are guys who will place two shots center mass faster than you can blink your eyes let alone acquire your sights. They do it from slightly above hip high. They clear, rotate and fire. Bang, bang, your dead. Just sayin.

cant always get your sights on target esp if the BG is on you and you have to fire from guard position. Should practice that too. Practice practice practice.

[muggsy]

+1
We have all heard of gunfights at close range where both parties empty high cap guns and hit nothing.
Adrenalin dumps producing spray and pray seem fairly common.

Controlled aimed fire, done quickly, seems more effective to me.
Training, training, training for smooth, natural, fluid moments and controlled fire is my objective.

Have you ever tried acquiring your sights while you're crapping in your pants? It's a bit difficult to maintain your concentration. A lot of guys will tell you exactly what they are going to do when the SHTF and not a damn one can tell you exactly what they did after the SHTF. Welcome to reality fellas. When the adrenaline kicks in the entire world changes. If you don't practice you'll likely be standing there shakin' like a dog crapping razor blades.

[Tilos]

In all the gun games, safety for you and those around you is number one, as it should be, but this does not prepare you for the real world.
For defense, I usually shoot alone, in an outdoor bay where sweeping/safety is not my main concern.
Sometimes stiff arming the target and shooting with the gun waist high, just above my right hip.
If your defense shooting practice is only done with your arms extended and a 2 handed grip, you need to rethink what you are training for.

My wife and I recently watched a vid on the news of some east coast cop being shot by 2 dirt bags.
He was armed and walking to a train/bus station after his shift in street clothes, was suspiciously watching them follow him, but was shot and killed anyway.
She asked how did they kill him, and I have to believe his cop mentality kept him from having his gun IN HIS HAND and was killed because he trainied only as a uniformed cop, not a civilian or undercover.
jmo
That, or they knew he was armed.
Tilos

[7shot]

+1
We have all heard of gunfights at close range where both parties empty high cap guns and hit nothing.
Adrenalin dumps producing spray and pray seem fairly common.

Controlled aimed fire, done quickly, seems more effective to me.
Training, training, training for smooth, natural, fluid moments and controlled fire is my objective.

Although this is good training too, you also have to consider the times where this won't work. Defensive skills also includes one-handed firing from either hand, at the hip and just plan draw and firing at a mass object.

Unfortunately the CC holder is almost always going to be on the defensive side of things and thus not expecting what is about to come down. That's a darn tuff spot to be in and the more training, either from a instructor or just your on range time is so beneficial. I try and take as least 2-3 defensive pistol classes a year to try and prepare. Hopefully this will help keep some the s**t in my pants if I ever get in a scrape.

[Barth]

Although this is good training too, you also have to consider the times where this won't work. Defensive skills also includes one-handed firing from either hand, at the hip and just plan draw and firing at a mass object.

Unfortunately the CC holder is almost always going to be on the defensive side of things and thus not expecting what is about to come down. That's a darn tuff spot to be in and the more training, either from a instructor or just your on range time is so beneficial. I try and take as least 2-3 defensive pistol classes a year to try and prepare. Hopefully this will help keep some the s**t in my pants if I ever get in a scrape.

I've shot with either hand, standing, sitting, laying down, behind cover,
reloading and firing with only the weak hand, moving hostage targets, striking distance from the hip, in front of friendly fire. Along with a variety of weapon retention and disarming techniques, pistol whipping and more. That training also include running, push ups and other physical activities to simulate an adrenalin dump prior to shooting.
I'm sure I'm forgetting somethings but you get the idea.

[7shot]

I've shot with either hand, standing, sitting, laying down, behind cover,
reloading and firing with only the weak hand, moving hostage targets, striking distance from the hip, in front of friendly fire. Along with a variety of weapon retention and disarming techniques, pistol whipping and more.

That's awesome! I was just trying to point out that it's going to be instinct when it becomes bad and aiming might not be an option.

IMO everyone that's really serious about CCing should learn these technics too. And if you can practice, if even a little, of what you learned that's even better.

[Planedude]

I have to work on my "speed rock" next time out at the range. The last time I tried I had a stovepipe that was most likely self induced. Ran out of ammo and time to get it worked out.
If you practice these point-n-shoot techniques PLEASE start slow...
When I try this next it will be in ultra slow for several times so my body will learn the process and every body part its place to be when the bullets and the brass begin flying. Some time at home, perhaps in a mirror, going nice and slow and unloaded would be good. It would suck to shoot your own hand or arm defending yourself from a paper target.