Gap between base plate and grip

[RxDoc]

I've been meaning to ask about this for a long time, especially after pinching my little finger in the gap between the base plate and grip on my CM9. What is the purpose? Why doesn't the mag fit flush with the grip? Mostly just curious, love my CM9 (recently took over SD carry over my Ruger KLCR).

[wyntrout]

I've never had a pinch with my PM9, but my P40 certainly did when I switched to metal base plates for CCW. I had to add an O-ring to stop the pinching. I don't think there's enough room on the CM9, though. Too much tension... as in too thick an O-ring, causes binding and malfunctions with the magazine.

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

The magazine extends beyond the grip to insure positive seating of the mag during a mag change. It's a design feature not a flaw.

[wagon]

Poor design. it is just fugly... and it does pinch my pinky too.

OP: easy fix tho, what I do: I bought one of those 8 rounder (for CW9) and swap the base plate with the PM9 mag - you will need to sand it down a little to fit.

Best part: you are NOT wasting any hard earn money, I use the 8 rounder as a reload mag -- and it also serve as a spare mag when I need to -- and it takes 8 !

[Bad_Brains]

Read the post that I made today concerning this. What I did looks great and works great.

[Tilos]

Buy this:
http://www.kahr.com/Pistol-Parts/Kahr-045PM9-Magazine-Base-7-round.asp

Do this:

6328

[Bad_Brains]

Tilos, that's exactly what I did. Great minds think alike lol.

[cmichael22]

Like Muggsy said its just a feature of the gun and nothing you have to fix and doing so could actually be worse than leaving it because you can cause damage to the gun by getting rid of gap.

[wagon]

One of the reason I like to stop by is because some posts on this site is really AMUSING!!!!!!!!!!

Not only a design flaw is considered a "feature", we can even damage the weapon to eliminate the cosmetically stupid and fugly gap just by doing THIS (pix below)????? Wait... I better go check for damages...

Boy, I LOVE this site!!!!!!!!!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ppkvt3u6l5A/T20j2FjpzeI/AAAAAAAAAxI/zVN0-tgZO6Q/s640/CM%2520%252B%2520CW%25201.JPG

[Bad_Brains]

That looks good wagon. I did the same thing to my CM9 except I removed the pinky ledge on my floor plate. I left a gap that's about the thickness of an index card between the grip and the floor plate just in case. Mine works great and not only does it look much more gooder but it feels gooder in my hand too.

[wagon]

Thank, B-Brains. It is pretty much the easiest approach... anything more than straight swap is just personal preference.

WAIT ... OMG ...:eek: I use Hogue HandAll on my Kahrs so that I can avoid my hand got eaten by the grater-grip... oh man ... I need to inspect my Kahrs if the HandAll has caused any damage to my guns !!!!!!!!!!

:w00t:

[cmichael22]

Its good you understand wagon that it could damage it and its only cosmetic!!! WAY TOO GO!

[wagon]

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Guess I got lucky ... no damage to my Kahrs :banplease:

[LorenzoB]

My extended magazine (for my CW9) from Kahr needs to be taped in pretty hard, and others have said the same thing. So I don't think the fat gap on on the normal length magazines is a "design feature". There is no way you are going to hurt it if the gap was "smaller" (ie still a gap). I've spent a long time analyzing this so I could CNC machine my own aluminum baseplate with a thin gap, and it seats perfectly every time with the slightest push, yet the gap is very thin. If you eliminate the gap completely so as to have a small interference fit, then it is a pain because you need to slam it home just to get it to seat properly. Even then, I don't believe you are going to hurt it. Otherwise Kahr would have made sure the extended magazines wouldn't do that.

The answer toward a better design = leave a SMALL gap not a big fat gap.

[muggsy]

The gun functions well the way it was designed, but I have no objection to anyone wasting his or her time and money to make a piece of deadly ordinance look prettier. It's just my opinion that function triumphs over form.

[PYROhafe]

LorenzoB did you ever get any of those machined pieces made up to sell? I had mentioned before ide be really interested in a couple, but never heard back on if you got some made up. Still interested though! :D

[Sgt.K]

Mine's never pinched and it doesn't bother me but I did take a magic marker and ran it around the mag right above the base plate.

[wagon]

The gun functions well the way it was designed, but I have no objection to anyone wasting his or her time and money to make a piece of deadly ordinance look prettier. It's just my opinion that function triumphs over form.

Form can improve function. as in this case no more finger pinching. :rolleyes:

[LorenzoB]

LorenzoB did you ever get any of those machined pieces made up to sell? I had mentioned before ide be really interested in a couple, but never heard back on if you got some made up. Still interested though! :D

Yes I did. And it looks great (and functions great) on my CW9, but I am testing it on some other guns. There have been some fit issues due to some tolerance variations between mag tubes and also gun grips. I'll keep you posted, and I may need your help too.

[muggsy]

Form can improve function. as in this case no more finger pinching. :rolleyes:

The mag on my CM9 has never pinched my finger. Could be you need a grip change rather than a mag modification. I don't object to anyone modifying their gun to suit their own tastes. What I object to is someone describing a design feature a fault, because it doesn't suit their aesthetic tastes. Thousands of 1911 shooters have glued a piece of rubber to the bottom of their mags to ensure positive seating and to protect them from damage when an empty mag is dropped free. I have them on my 1911 mags, but I didn't put them on to make the gun look pretty. Just sayin.

[wyntrout]

The magazines can't be individually hand-fitted to each pistol. There has to be a loose enough tolerance to fit all the pistols that it's designed for and takes into consideration the possible variations in dimensions possible with the polymer frames... length of magazine well, magazine catch seating, and so forth. There has to be just enough overtravel for the magazine to be latched properly. I like metal base plates for CC and use those on my P40, but I had to use a couple of different sized O-rings to get a fit that stopped the pinching AND allowed proper fit and operation of the magazines.

Yes, it can be a pain to find something that works, but worth the trouble to me. The metal base plates don't protrude and print so much. I don't like the regular "flush" fitting plastic bases. I would still like metal ones for my PM45. I can live without the "pinky rest"!

JMHO & YMMV.

Wynn:)

[CrabbyAzz]

I really don't have a problem with it. I originally put the pinky grip extenders on mine but have sinve taken them off. I also removed my Hogue grip. I'm now liking the gun exactly the way it came out of the box.

[JFootin]

My little finger curls up underneath the magazine when I grip my CM9. Are you guys who are getting pinched trying to squeeze your little fingers up there to aid in gripping the gun? The simple solution is to stop doing that and get comfortable with the 2 finger grip.

[jocko]

IMO if one complainsabout thePMor CM for lack of grip,hehas no oneto blame but himself.

They ain't as small as they are because they have a 7 or 8 round mag well. Ialways felt to put a pinky extension on a PM or CM then why not buy the cw series and get a nice extra round with a flush fit. Cou7rse I pocket carry 24/7 , so for me anything one puts on a PM or CM series that makes it bigger defeats what I bought it for. Small is great but it has its drawback, big is good but it has it drawbacks, somewhere in between thatis a gunout there that comes close to what u want..

[LorenzoB]

My little finger curls up underneath the magazine when I grip my CM9. Are you guys who are getting pinched trying to squeeze your little fingers up there to aid in gripping the gun?

That is a good question.

[LorenzoB]

The magazines can't be individually hand-fitted to each pistol. There has to be a loose enough tolerance to fit all the pistols that it's designed for......

I have thought about this a lot, and you hit the nail on the head in your second sentence. Kahr does not have to hand fit each mag to each pistol, but since 1 mag is made to fit so many pistol models, AND different versions manufactured at different years (for example the first PM9 frames were machined down P9's before they made a new mold I believe). So that gap between the grip and the baseplate has changed over time and between different guns, yet the mag has stayed the same, SO, there has to be an adequate gap to accommodate all combinations.

Can gun companies keep a consistent tight gap between the grip and mag base? Yes they can. Can gun companies hold tight manufacturing tolerances? Yes they do. I think the varing gap (some tight and some fat) is partly due to using the same mag on many models and also keeping it the same since the beginning.

I'm sure I could explain this better, but I'm tired of typing on my phone. ;)

[wagon]

Can gun companies keep a consistent tight gap between the grip and mag base? Yes they can. Can gun companies hold tight manufacturing tolerances? Yes they do. I think the varing gap (some tight and some fat) is partly due to using the same mag on many models and also keeping it the same since the beginning.

Exactly! This is "BY DESIGN" to keep the cost down ... but calling it a "feature" is just AMUSING.

Gotta luv this site!

[340pd]

Look at it this way. If for some reason you had a mag release issue it may be of help to extract the mag using your fingernails.

On another note;

Has anyone tried a o-ring as a spacer?

[jocko]

probably always will be room for improvement on alot of things. I wish Audi would fix ktheir power window unit. On my 3rd passenger side power window unit. Factory replacments are exactly the same, no improvement. Ask audi and their comment is we really don't have any issues with our power window unit as it is the same in every model we make..

[LorenzoB]

Exactly! This is "BY DESIGN" to keep the cost down ... but calling it a "feature" is just AMUSING.

Gotta luv this site!

I don't think "this site" says it's a feature... just a few of the members. There are also other members who have come up with their own solutions and posted them, so it is not a "drink the kool-aid" mentality here. And I also know that most of us Kahr owners know these are great guns that are functional "tools", and that is what is most important. Modifying it to make it better "in ones opinion" is secondary.

Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that is is a feature. Kahr COULD have done a better job, but I still love my CW9, it is a well working functional tool that I trust my family's lives to. I also acknowledge that they were a startup manufacturer not that long ago in a niche market trying to balance price in the equation... so I try not to bash them for "fit" issues, when we all know function is the priority. Anyway, it leaves room for me to make aftermarket parts and have fun doing it.

[CrabbyAzz]

probably always will be room for improvement on alot of things. I wish Audi would fix ktheir power window unit. On my 3rd passenger side power window unit. Factory replacments are exactly the same, no improvement. Ask audi and their comment is we really don't have any issues with our power window unit as it is the same in every model we make..

I hear you. I have 3 vw's which use the same window regulators. Seems like I'm replacing one ever few months. In fact I'm going to be replacing one next weekend.

[LorenzoB]

Look at it this way. If for some reason you had a mag release issue it may be of help to extract the mag using your fingernails.

On another note;

Has anyone tried a o-ring as a spacer?

wyntrout and some others have used o-rings. You can posts (including this one) that mention o-rings to fill the gap.

On my CNC machined aluminum base plate, the gap is really thin, so I included finger grip indentations than allow you to manually pull out the mag if necessary. Much better than using your fingernails!

[jocko]

I hear you. I have 3 vw's which use the same window regulators. Seems like I'm replacing one ever few months. In fact I'm going to be replacing one next weekend.

audi is owned by VW--HUMMM

[PYROhafe]

wyntrout and some others have used o-rings. You can posts (including this one) that mention o-rings to fill the gap.

On my CNC machined aluminum base plate, the gap is really thin, so I included finger grip indentations than allow you to manually pull out the mag if necessary. Much better than using your fingernails!


you thought of it all! now i really want one!!!

[jocko]

when or have we seen photos yet??? U just can't open up Dillingers safe and not show us what the hell was in it??? Just sayin

[Tinman507]

9r5xBMNfOl4

[LorenzoB]

Works, looks, and fits awesome on my CW9. Just working out fit on other guns. I didn't want to show any photos till I had that worked out, but since Tinman pulled out that old Geraldo vid, I guess I have no choice! :)

6379

I am working on another version that doesn't have the back area covered... more like the Kahr one, but a better shape (shape matches grip better, with side grips also). I made some plastic rapid prototypes so I could test the fit, and they are cool too.

[muggsy]

My little finger curls up underneath the magazine when I grip my CM9. Are you guys who are getting pinched trying to squeeze your little fingers up there to aid in gripping the gun? The simple solution is to stop doing that and get comfortable with the 2 finger grip.

J, you're a good man with a good grip. Even on a gun with a full length grip the little finger of the strong hand should not apply pressure to the grip. Applying pressure with the little finger of the strong hand can cause a gun to shoot low. Only the two middle fingers of the strong hand should apply pressure to the grip. Most people are self taught and never learn to properly grip a gun or shoot one correctly.

[gb6491]

Works, looks, and fits awesome on my CW9. Just working out fit on other guns. I didn't want to show any photos till I had that worked out, but since Tinman pulled out that old Geraldo vid, I guess I have no choice! :)

6379

I am working on another version that doesn't have the back area covered... more like the Kahr one, but a better shape (shape matches grip better, with side grips also). I made some plastic rapid prototypes so I could test the fit, and they are cool too.
Nice work Lorenzo!
Regards,
Greg

[PYROhafe]

Works, looks, and fits awesome on my CW9. Just working out fit on other guns. I didn't want to show any photos till I had that worked out, but since Tinman pulled out that old Geraldo vid, I guess I have no choice! :)

6379

I am working on another version that doesn't have the back area covered... more like the Kahr one, but a better shape (shape matches grip better, with side grips also). I made some plastic rapid prototypes so I could test the fit, and they are cool too.

That thing looks SWEET! I like the way you put the K on the bottom too. Lookin forward to these bad boys goin into production.... not a huge fan of the base on my cm9, (it gets the job done) but not sure I wanna try and sand down some other base to make it work.

[olympicmotorcars]

Looks very nice, You can put me on the list if you ever make some 40 cal baseplates too.

[CrabbyAzz]

Wow.. Even I would be interested in one..

[LorenzoB]

Wow.. Even I would be interested in one..

Thanks Crabby, I know that means a lot! ;)

I'm working out fit on other guns, then I'll let everyone know when it's ready.

[LorenzoB]

Looks very nice, You can put me on the list if you ever make some 40 cal baseplates too.

I'm trying to work out the 40 cal fit too.

[jocko]

extremewly nice work. Lorenzo. question?? whatis that silver collored thing on the end do,???

[LorenzoB]

extremewly nice work. Lorenzo. question?? whatis that silver collored thing on the end do,???

Thanks Jocko! Means a lot.
It is a screw that holds in that little piece that fills the gap on the back end.

[jocko]

sure looks like alot of qualioty machine work. I wish Bawanna could do that good of work on his grips. Just sayin.

[Bawanna]

You know how to make me cry.

[GROTMAN]

Looks like Tinman has been giving someone lessons :D

[Bawanna]

Naw, he offered to teach me but told me he'd have to kill me afterwards. I thought the price was a little steep.

[wagon]

Fantastic work, Lorenzo! Sell the design to Kahr and charge them loyalty! :D Seriously, it really looks great. Do you have a pre-order sign up sheet going?


Works, looks, and fits awesome on my CW9. Just working out fit on other guns. I didn't want to show any photos till I had that worked out, but since Tinman pulled out that old Geraldo vid, I guess I have no choice! :)

6379

I am working on another version that doesn't have the back area covered... more like the Kahr one, but a better shape (shape matches grip better, with side grips also). I made some plastic rapid prototypes so I could test the fit, and they are cool too.

[LorenzoB]

Fantastic work, Lorenzo! Sell the design to Kahr and charge them loyalty! :D Seriously, it really looks great. Do you have a pre-order sign up sheet going?

Thanks wagon for the "vote of confidence"! I don't have a pre-order sheet... I have just been keeping track of who was interested and then I was planning on sending private messages so as to not cross any line with selling stuff on the forum. I'm sure I'll be setting up a website where people could order online to make it easier and more secure (payment wise).

[PYROhafe]

officially keeping an eye on my inbox! :D
I like all the ideas you're gettin lorenzob.... looks like you might have some good money makin opportunities in front of ya! Best of luck!

[Frayed Knot]

Awesome product! Add me to the list please.:)

[Tinman507]

http://www.armannd.com/wp-content/uploads/1287517360935.jpg

Add me to that list too, please!

[JFootin]

Me, too!

[greyhoundafw]

Me too, great work!
Greyhound

[340pd]

And me.

[Giraffes]

Awesome work! Add me to the list for two.

[jocko]

Thanks wagon for the "vote of confidence"! I don't have a pre-order sheet... I have just been keeping track of who was interested and then I was planning on sending private messages so as to not cross any line with selling stuff on the forum. I'm sure I'll be setting up a website where people could order online to make it easier and more secure (payment wise).

ol jocko on ur list to contact.

[LorenzoB]

Thanks everyone! I'll keep you posted.

[cqc6]

Hey,

Please add me to the list as well!

Thanks!

[cmichael22]

Add me too please!

[LorenzoB]

Sure thing guys! It may be a little while, because I've been pretty busy at work with other projects.

[PYROhafe]

wow lorenzo.... i remember when this was just a random thought you had, and even then it was something you MIGHT try and figure out with a little machining and time.... looks like your random thought might turn into a big venture for ya.... do i see early retirement in your future? haha

[LorenzoB]

I think retirement is a long way away!!!! If I can sell some and it could fund buying a gun or two, that would be awesome. Right now, I'm negative on the project, but it has been fun, so I'm not too worried about the money part, although it would be nice to make it back and then some. :)

Thanks for the nice comments. I wasn't too sure how people would like it, but it seems I'm on the right track. I still have to do more fit testing on some other guns and then set up a website. In the mean time, I have an unofficial list I am keeping of people who are interested.

[jocko]

u certainly have a good skill with a hammer and chisel!!! Just sayin

[LorenzoB]

u certainly have a good skill with a hammer and chisel!!! Just sayin

Thanks! The chisel kept getting dull!

One of these days I'll post a video of the machining process. It is pretty cool to see.

[jhertzler]

I'd love one of these -- the one pictured that covers that back of the grip.

Joe

[cmichael22]

Does anybody have a good picture of their gap on their Kahr?

[wagon]

Does anybody have a good picture of their gap on their Kahr?

here you go. PM and CM.... and the "after".

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-l7NsKIOJRKc/TIsze8DM0PI/AAAAAAAAARk/wR13B6d-KfY/s800/PM9%2520Pro-TL%2520front1.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-47KtAm4XEGo/T0mqbJQdC2I/AAAAAAAAAr8/Xn2mwhPd93Q/s640/cm9.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b9J76TmXAzY/T2AcQ49J9jI/AAAAAAAAAtc/NYcsX8u6zWI/s640/cm2%2520finger%2520rest.JPG

[cmichael22]

Thanks

[olympicmotorcars]

Wagon, what kind of holster is that?

[wyntrout]

I did try a 3/32" thick 3/4" inner diameter O-ring on my PM9 and it would not allow the magazine to seat and latch. That size does work on my P40's mags that I put metal bases on for concealed carry.

I don't need the O-ring, though, because only two fingers fit on the PM9 grip. The little finger is curled beneath the grip/magazine.

Wynn:)

[krazman]

I did try a 3/32" thick 3/4" inner diameter O-ring on my PM9 and it would not allow the magazine to seat and latch. That size does work on my P40's mags that I put metal bases on for concealed carry.

I don't need the O-ring, though, because only two fingers fit on the PM9 grip. The little finger is curled beneath the grip/magazine.

Wynn:)
That size O-ring is working perfectly for me on my PM9. Mag was a little tight at first, but not anymore. I was getting the bottom edge of my ring finger pinched before. My little finger is under the mag too.

I guess this just demonstrates the slight variations in all of our PM9/CM9s.
kraz

[wisconman]

Please add me to the list when you get around to selling those great looking floorplates

[wyntrout]

That's great. Krazman, as long as you test it sufficiently that it works for you.

I'll probably get some more metal base plates to try with my "new" P9 for concealed carry, though I don't expect my wife to do any. I really like the P9, but I have my PM9 and the P40, besides the P380 and PM45 for CCW. I like choices!

Wynn:)

[wagon]

Wagon, what kind of holster is that?

That's a HBE holster, model Pro-TL. http://www.hbeleatherworks.com/

Eric makes high quality holsters. But truth be told, by design of "off set" slip, you will find it shift according to body movement -- we cannot defy physics.

If you ask me what is my favorite IWB for subcompacts, one word: Mitch Rosen CLP.. half the price and can use WITHOUT a belt. See below for ref:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hwxx2u5faZs/T4CkkbthN-I/AAAAAAAAAyA/tZjWf2k_EHU/s800/ride%2520heights.JPG

[rjt123]

Lorenzo,

Please add me to your list as well. Awesome work! :hungry:

[glock19er]

If you can add me to the list I will take 2.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[LorenzoB]

Sure thing guys! I'm glad you like it.

[valentin_84]

I purchased a used PM9 and when I got home I noticed that the base lock on the 7rd mag was missing...:32: I was going to just buy one and pop it on, but after reading this thread I decided I should use the 7rd mag base on the 6rd mag to do the conversion you guys are talking about.

I noticed that the mag locks on the 6rd and 7rd are different... So my question is, which do I go with???

Also, what can I do with the 7rd mag now? I keep reading that they don't feed as well. Can I make it a 6rd mag?

[LorenzoB]

The plastic goes with the plastic and the metal goes with the metal. You can buy a kit from Kahr with both parts (less expensive than buying them separately). When you sand the plastic down, remember to use water and fine grit paper on the last step (it will look better). Let us know how it goes!

[JERRY]

The plastic goes with the plastic and the metal goes with the metal. You can buy a kit from Kahr with both parts (less expensive than buying them separately). When you sand the plastic down, remember to use water and fine grit paper on the last step (it will look better). Let us know how it goes!

i was going to get a plastic base plate to replce the metal one on my PM9 six round magazine....whats this sanding youre talking about?

[Oldcrow]

It looks good but I don't know what he did?

[Tilos]

It looks good but I don't know what he did?
This thread is 2+ years old...
Look at post#6/page 1 for a way to mod a mag base for no gap.

These 2 parts work best:
http://www.kahr.com//pistol-parts/kahr-magazine-base-7-round.asp
http://www.kahr.com//pistol-parts/kahr-037ct9-magazine-base-lock.asp
Or this Kit for CM9/PM9:
http://www.kahr.com//magazines/kahr-polymer-magazine-base-kit-9-mm-and-40-sandw.asp
Ken

[Oldcrow]

Tools n Wagon - I'm a new owner. Could u explain a little more in depth so a ******* can understand what u guys did to fix the gap on the CM9. Love this gun!!

[Oldcrow]

Wagon, I want to do this to my CM9, cept I don't know what u did. Would u explain please?