New PM45 Range Test

[wyntrout]

This is just a quick note about my range trip yesterday. I'm too darn sleepy to think well enough to do a report now.
The first shot I fired hit dead center of the target at 7 yards or so. The recoil wasn't bad. I'm sure glad that I put the bike inner tube on the grip. Before I was through, I put my right hand glove on because I kept getting my right thumb on or near the magazine release and that thing is rough. I would consciously try to keep my thumb off, but it wound up there too often -- not pressing on it but close enough that the recoil would push it into my thumb.
When I could get a bullet into the chamber, I found it easier to shoot or shoot better than the PM9. That was a surprise!
I had trouble with chambering rounds from the first attempt -- both 5-shot magazines wouldn't hold the bullet up high enough and it would slam into the bottom of the feed ramp and if you tried to hit the slide to help it into battery, the bullet would stay where it was... or more often the slide would close, but but the bullet stayed in the magazine and had a scratch on top where the slide's cartridge pusher scraped across the top.
It got to where I would chamber a round, withdraw the magazine, and check that indeed a round had gone into the chamber. I got tired of clicking on an empty chamber.
I fired 200 rounds of PMC 230-grain FMJ which shot pretty well and wasn't real "dirty". I then fired 34 rounds of Remington Golden Saber 230-greain BJHP which had a lot more kick for some reason. I thought both loads were "standard" .45 ACP. I had trouble chambering that as well at first. I did manage to get through shooting all of that, but I usually made sure that a round was stripped from the magazine before aiming and firing.
I liked shooting the PM45 and found I was more consistent and had tighter groups with it than the PM9, but I could sling shots about with poor trigger control or hasty shots.
I'll try to post some pix later and explain what I was experiencing or observing. I'll also do a post on the Double Tap +P GDs versus the Speer 124-grain GD Short Barrel +P... flash and recoil. The GDs worked fine except in the 7-round magazine that I've had problems with -- 4 shots and the last 3 are jammed too low to be picked up and the slide closes on an empty chamber.
I had one spare CorBon left over from earlier testing and fired it on video for comparison as well.
I need to get some sleep! Later.
Wynn:)

[In-Yo-Grill]

Dang Wynn, Im sorry your 1st outing with the new gun went like that. I wonder if something is not letting the mag fully seat in the gun. Regardless KAHR needs to go kick their QC dept. Dead up in the A$$. Things like this should NEVER happen with high dollar firearms.
RY

Here we go...

Give a good cleaning and head back out to the range. when you get a little more time in on the gun you'll know if it needs to go back. Get some sleep and tell us more...

[jocko]

hopefully it will smooth out with some more rounds down range. Seems lke the kahr 45's need alittle more TLC to get running correctly. Not sure why that is either. Keep us up to date wynn.

[Bawanna]

Doesn't sound like that bad of a first range report to me. I'm ecstatic that you report the recoil is manageable and as easy or easier to shoot than the PM9. As mentioned it most likely will slicken up some with more range time. Sad that you have to spit gold down the tube to make it run. Certainly to early to get Kahr on the phone. Early in the bonding process.
Quite often the FMJ practice type ammo is much more tame than any of the carry ammo even when it's not above standard. A little more recoil with the Golden Sabre is not surprise.

[jeep45238]

Both of those ammo cartridges are 'standard' pressure .45ACP - standard pressure simply means not above SAMMI limits for non +p ammo.

There's quite a difference in the oomph between plinking ammo and defensive ammo :)

[Bawanna]

I think the PMC is at the bottom of that pressure range and the Golden Sabre probably close to the top. There's quite a margin there. As you've mentioned before dropping the powder charge for competition, it's still in the SAAMI standard range but less powder, less velocity, less felt recoil.
I haven't played with Golden Sabre so it's just a SWAG on my part.

[jeep45238]

I haven't played with Golden Sabre so it's just a SWAG on my part.


It's good stuff. The rear of the bullet is slightly larger than the rest, so there's a better seal and less friction, resulting in higher speed. It's also brass jacketed, not copper, for more rapid expansion.

Very accurate in my firearms. I will say though that it suffers from bullet setback very quickly, at least in 185 grain .45ACP. I've switched back to Winchester Ranger 230 grains, very similar recoil impulse, and no bullet set backs. I don't see myself taking a 50 yard headshot, so the faster speed/lower drop doesn't mean too much to me.

[Bawanna]

Seems like a brass jacket wouldn't be to great on barrels. I've used the winchester alot, my department uses winchester SXT for duty and the Lawman for training when we can find it. I usually stick with Gold Dot because I like it, and there's no question that I'm pilfering department ammo for personal use in my armorer duties. Always gotta cover 6.

[jeep45238]

Brass jackets wont' hurt a thing. It's softer than copper, harder than lead, and both have been shot for a long time out of barrels without a problem. Still way softer than the steel used in barrels, so no issues.

Heck, I'm looking at the required equipment to start making .45cal FMJ/JHP out of .40 casings and cast lead, and .40 FMJ/JHP out of 9mm casings and cast lead.

[wyntrout]

It was like going from 9mm range fodder to CorBon +P. I was kinda surprised by the difference -- no problems just more difference than I expected.
I would carry the PM45 without the inner tube on the grip (worried about catching shirt and exposure), but no way do I want to do that at the range -- sharp grips and not in a good way!:D
There really seems to be a problem... or two... or three... with the magazines and insertion and the magazines presentation of the first round. I really had to exaggerate inserting the magazine and then use the top of the slide for leverage to make sure the darn thing seated. Often there would be a "crunching" sound as it finally went in as far as it could -- weird. Sometimes it would seem that the mag was all the way in but by gripping the top of the slde and the bottom of the mag and squeezing, it would go further -- big difference in how the top round is presented... or NOT!
Usually, if I managed to get the top round to chamber, the rest would chamber and fire as well.
After 234 rounds, one would hope that things would smooth out, but I don't think that just more rounds will correct the feed problems.
I like the gun but it was really disappointing that it took about 5 or 6 tries with the two 5-shot mags to get a cartridge to strip off the mag, go up the ramp, and chamber. After I adopted the "squeeze" step, things went a little better, but I would still drop the mag and check that a round was gone.:D
I have chores and stuff and I still have to clean the two PMs. I left them laying apart in pieces for cleaning and entertained my wife after she got off work. I was too sleepy to focus afterward. I want to re-shoot some side-by-side comparison pix of the two PM's parts. I kept getting weird results and shadows last night with the red-eye avoidance light -- orangish pix in a small circle surrounded by dark.
More Later. Cheers!
Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

I found the reason for the "crunch". After after comparing PM45 parts to their PM9 counterparts and screwing with a lot of the parts of the PM45 that I shouldn't have, I tried sticking loaded magazines in each and trying to see a difference. I found a big one. Look at the first 2 photos #43 and #48. These are of the PM9 with a loaded magazine inserted. Notice that there is about 3/16" between the rear of the cartridge and the striker housing and the lower ridge of the slide that strips the rounds off the magazine as the slide returns to battery position.
Now look at the next 2 photos of the PM45 with a loaded magazine inserted and locked in place. There is NO clearance and the ramp/stripper/striker housing is resting on top of the base rim of the cartridge. This is why when the slide is released the stripper rides over the cartridge pushing it back down into the magazine and you have an empty chamber and a scratch on top of the cartridge. The magazine IS locked into place, but by squeezing the top of the slide and the bottom of the magazine hard enough the stripper mashes the rim which gives enough that cartridge is pushed forward of the stripper. That was the "crunching" sound.:eek:
Clearly something is wrong here. Both pistols have the slide locked to the rear and there is a big difference in the gap on the PM9, or lack of one in the PM45.:confused:
You guys with PM45s please look and see if there is a gap in your pistol between the rear of the cartridge and the stripper/striker housing. This is a big flaw and I think the magazine well is too far aft at the top or some other things are wrong. This sucks!
Wynn:confused:

I added a 5th photo of the top round in a magazine which gets scraped as the "stripper" rides over it. This happened a lot.

[jeep45238]

Wyn, all of my pistols, regardless of make, model, or caliber, have the slide go beyond the rim of the case when it's in the mag. Some by only a little, others by over 1/2 an inch.

It's impossible to feed from the mag if the (technical name I can't think of) part of slide that sticks down centerline of the mag can't get behind the back of the case - the further this distance, generally the less finiky the gun is. I'd be boxing it up and shipping it out on Monday with those pictures.

[wyntrout]

I had a lot of chores and other things to do and I finally got around to finishing cleaning the two guns for the range trip yesterday. I have been comparing all of the parts and how things look when assembled and screwed with the ejector trying to make the PM45 one look more like the PM9, thinking that was depressing the rear of the cartridges too much. I had an oopsie with my "Dremel-Like" tool but nothing major. I hope that doesn't void my warranty or something.:eek: Then I tried loaded mags with the slides locked back and seeing if I could find any differences. I couldn't believe the difference and I can see how it's screwed up now and why the magazine could be locked in place and no round being stripped. I saw the scratches on the tops of the cartridges in the magazine after failure to chamber a round. The squeezing I did caused the rim of the cartridge to fail enough to let the "stripper" slide behind the cartridge base and then the round could chamber.
I guess that I can't be lucky with everything. At least I have my PM9 as my main carry, anyhow. I guess that I shouldn't have mocked Murphy the other day, either!:rolleyes:
As an emergency measure, I could very slightly round the bottom of the "stripper" but that might screw something else up. This isn't an emergency, though.
At least I figured out the problem. How they will fix that, I don't know. This is really weird -- the way there's no gap at all! I wonder how many other guns have this problem.
Wynn:confused:

I forgot to add something kind of funny. I forgot to take a cap in with me, but I did get some shooting glasses -- cheap Remington ones $4.95 at Wally World, but they are great. The yellow lenses help and I could see the sights and the target better. Using my prescription progressive lenses made one or the other out of focus.
Another thing is that I took a LOT of hits to the forehead from ejected cases... I mean sometimes it was like every one of those suckers came back and boinked me in the middle of my forehead. After the range, I went to Sam's Club and shopped there for maybe a half hour. When I got home, I finally saw my forehead and there were 7 or 8 or more little black marks from the ejected shells! My wife thought that was funny when I told her later.
The time before last I did take a cap, but I left it in the car and tried to duck when I could see them coming... to no avail. I could blink but that was about all I had time for. Sometimes the things bounced off part of the motorized target apparatus overhead the station. NOTE: Remember CAP!:D

[jeep45238]

As an emergency measure, I could very slightly round the bottom of the "stripper" but that might screw something else up. This isn't an emergency, though.


Actually, that would make the problem worse. It would drive the cartridge down into the magazine.

[wyntrout]

I think that it would just push the cartridge forward enough to scoot behind like when the rim gives way with my "squeeze" -- the "crunch".
I tried "tapping" the top rear corners of one magazine with a small hammer, but that's tough metal and it wouldn't deform inward to push the cartridge forward a bit.:rolleyes:
<Sigh> I'll have to email Ian at Kahr and see if they will pick up the tab for shipping.
Wynn

Hmmm. If I bevel the bottom of the cartridge rim that might solve the problem... for one round. I want to hear from some other PM45 owners and see what kind of gap they have or if they are having problems, too.:confused:

[jeep45238]

I think that it would just push the cartridge forward enough to scoot behind like when the rim gives way with my "squeeze" -- the "crunch".


The only way to modify your gun to feed would be to grind in a rearward angle on the breech face, starting right below where a round would sit when in battery and extending rearward just enough to consistently clear the rim of the cartridge.

I may know a thing or two about mechanical interfaces - I optimize repair processes for jet engine parts, and have built some quick cars with little tolerance stackup throughout. My spelling and grammar are horrible though :)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/FSAE/IMGP1190.jpg

Putting a bevel on the edge will do nothing except have the slide touch less of the rim on the cartridge face ;)

[wyntrout]

I can't wait to see what the fix is -- a redesigned frame, moving the magazine well forward at the top.?:confused:
Wifey's home so I must get ready to entertain her. I just had my buddy over to help me get the new-in-January 58" Samsung plasma HDTV, top-rated by Consumer Reports... best HDTV rating of any TV -- off the damn wall and remount it to the stand so the repairman can get at it tomorrow. It really sucked unhooking about 9 or so electronic components, UPS's, cables, power cords... just lots of stuff and move the heavy cabinet holding all of that stuff. I just hope it can be fixed ASAP. I'm tired of using my little 22" LCD HDTV -- it just ain't the same.
Hmmm. My new TV blew up -- loud crack like a firecracker. My new PM45 is broken or defective... what else is going to happen?? I shouldn't have mocked Murphy the other day!:rolleyes:
Wynn:p

[Bawanna]

I see the most important tool is at the forefront. The BFH. Thing looks fast just settin there don't it.

[gb6491]

...
As an emergency measure, I could very slightly round the bottom of the "stripper" but that might screw something else up. This isn't an emergency, though....
Actually, that's sort of what I did to fix the same problem (actually, I could not get my magazine to seat) with my CW45. I slightly changed the angle that the slide is beveled to where the rim of the round contacts it.
In the photo below, I stoned the bevel so that the tailing edge of it is moved further rearward (red arrow). I did not change the starting point of the bevel (green line).
http://i46.tinypic.com/6nvam9.jpg
The round in the magazine now cams/rocks forward into place, ready to be stripped out of the magazine. In the photo below, the shot on the left was taken just as the round contacts the slide; on the right, shows the magazine seated:
http://i49.tinypic.com/55rmkh.jpg
A quick movie of the action:
YouTube - slidemod.MPG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhSEY_ZmJeg)
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

That looks like a good fix. Your's obviously is showing no gap at the rear just like Mr. Wyn mentioned. Seems like if it was mine, I'd want Kahr to do what you did unless I picked up a used one with issues. Kahr should have caught that easy.

[a.squibload]

Wyntrout, I can solve your problem. Borrow one of those feminine pads, peel off the
backing and stick it on your forehead, it will absorb impact from the cases and prevent
injury. As far as your feed problem, I have no idea. Hope this helps... :>)

[a.squibload]

Sorry about that, can't help myself.

In your video, after the magazine seats it looks like the case rim is tight against
the breech face (proper term?). Will the slide move any farther back from lock?
SWAG that the slide lock might be at fault? Bevel looks like a good fix.

Wondering if your slide's rearward travel is restricted somehow, don't know enough about it,
is there a buffer? Couldn't be dirt on a brand new piece, maybe a burr? You've had it
apart, probably would have seen that.

PM40 suggested technique is to lock slide, insert mag, release slide.
When new, mine wouldn't feed cycling by hand, only by releasing the slide lock.
Tried it again recently, now it works by hand.

[gb6491]

Sorry about that, can't help myself.

In your video, after the magazine seats it looks like the case rim is tight against
the breech face (proper term?). Will the slide move any farther back from lock?
SWAG that the slide lock might be at fault? Bevel looks like a good fix.

Wondering if your slide's rearward travel is restricted somehow, don't know enough about it,
is there a buffer? Couldn't be dirt on a brand new piece, maybe a burr? You've had it
apart, probably would have seen that.

PM40 suggested technique is to lock slide, insert mag, release slide.
When new, mine wouldn't feed cycling by hand, only by releasing the slide lock.
Tried it again recently, now it works by hand.
Once the magazine seats there is a little space between the round and the breech face:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2cqe6av.jpg
The slide can be moved a little further back: enough to release the slide lock.
I have a another slide lock (a MIM piece), but there looks to be no difference in position when it is installed.
No buffer, there's nothing I've seen that looks like it's limiting the slide's travel. I did this tweak some time ago and have had not had the problem since (I'm up to about 750 rounds through it).
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

Thanks for the inputs, guys. I'll email and/or call Kahr tomorrow. This looks like a design flaw. The slide is locked back and the magazine's top round doesn't clear the bottom of the stripper and unless you apply enough force to make part of the cartridge rim give way so that the cartridge is pushed forward enough and slides up the striker housing. There should be some kind of gap there. It's about 3/16" on the PM9 (eyeballed).
I tried making the underside of the ejector more like the PM9, thinking that it was pushing the rear of the top cartridge down. While doing that, I had an oopsie with my "Dremel-Like" tool and took a bit off the inner wall of the frame opposite that. I think it was the grinder bit and the polish "wheel" that touched the frame... oops!:eek: I did notice a burned plastic smell... odd.:rolleyes:
I think that we just need to get the cartridge and ammunition manufacturers to bevel the base of the cartridge cases and things would be hunky dory.:D
Wynn

I emailed Kahr Technical Support
service@kahr.com and put "To the attention of Ian".
I'm waiting on Samsung repair today and now Kahr to contact me. 05:47/8 March.

[wyntrout]

Well, the TV is fixed and I'm waiting to hear from Kahr. My buddy's coming over shortly to help me hang the TV back up on the wall. Then I have a lot to do moving stuff back in place and hooking up everything again. I still have to put the rest of my gun cleaning kit and stuff away, too. Another busy day where I don't get everything done. At least I got the wash done yesterday... for a few days, anyhow.
Being a house-hubby can be a lot of work and when you have hobbies and yak online or shop most of the day, stuff can pile up... more than usual.
Dang, I have a week's worth of newspapers on the card table waiting my perusal... old news by now, there are the comics and Jumble. I've got to keep my mind active.:D
I still have some reporting and pictures to post, but I need to get on other stuff now. It's another bright and beautiful day here in Northeastern Florida ~ 63°. Later!
Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Well, I emailed Kahr Service around 530 am and the about half an hour ago and after I found the phone number, called them. I talked to Ian, who answered the phone, and he's sending FedEx to pick up the gun and the two included magazines tomorrow. It's nice to have more than one, and my main CCW has been the PM9.
Now I can go start hooking up my TV. It's up on the wall again, but it will take half a day to hook everything back up. I have nothing more pressing than a nap.:D Maybe a quick ammo report on the Speer 9mm 124-grain GD SBs +P.
Later.
Wynn

[jocko]

let us know what they do to your gun. Not sure if it is a design flaw or just a flaw in your particular gun.

[Vinikahr]

Please keep us posted, there is a particular member that has a heavy(emphasis) interest about this information.:D

[Bawanna]

oooom, hari krishna, ooooom , hari krishna, oooooom.

[Vinikahr]

oooom, hari krishna, ooooom , hari krishna, oooooom.

Thanks for the laugh, I have not laugh this hard in a long time!

[Bawanna]

Thanks for the laugh, I have not laugh this hard in a long time!

aAAH, Thanks, another successful day. Dont take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive. Hope your day stays good.

[PigButtons]

Wow, last week it was the "NOTCH" problem with the PM45s. Now Mr. Wyn's got this breach face issue.

When I called Kahr two days after taking receipt of mine last week about my notch issue to see if I could just send the slide to have the notch machined in, they said they wanted the whole gun "to make sure that EVERYTHING is right".

I'm just guessing but there must have been a glitch in the CNC and QC world at Kahr in their latest production run of PM45s.

I'm sure they are going to make it right. But having to wait is a little frustrating.

P.S. I took mine back to the LGS and they were very glad to handle it for me. Larry's is a full service kind of place.

[a.squibload]

Side note:

I was in the woods sitting cross-legged doing my mantra
(Oooooooooooom) when a cow happened by, smirked, and
giggled a little.

I said "Hey, what the heck?"

The cow said "Sorry, it's just that you're doing it backwards,

it's Moooooooooo..."

[Bawanna]

Side note:

I was in the woods sitting cross-legged doing my mantra
(Oooooooooooom) when a cow happened by, smirked, and
giggled a little.

I said "Hey, what the heck?"

The cow said "Sorry, it's just that you're doing it backwards,

it's Moooooooooo..."

I've had that happen, awkward. Who do you think is really backward, us or the cow. Do you think theres any hari krishna cows? Are they kosher or dill?
Bawanna has left the building.

[a.squibload]

Not sure, however, the cow was bald except for a topknot...

[Bawanna]

Not sure, however, the cow was bald except for a topknot...

Where's our pictures or it didn't happen guy. Vinikar is that you? Topknot huh? Hmmm, sounds like a hari krishna cow to me. Was it a milk cow or a beef cow?
I actually ain't seen many of the hari's around lately but been a long time since I been downtown. Actually about the time ammo started drying up. Might be a hidden message in there somewhere.

[Vinikahr]

Where's our pictures or it didn't happen guy. Vinikar is that you? Topknot huh? Hmmm, sounds like a hari krishna cow to me. Was it a milk cow or a beef cow?
I actually ain't seen many of the hari's around lately but been a long time since I been downtown. Actually about the time ammo started drying up. Might be a hidden message in there somewhere.

Yeah this thread is worthless without picks, I picked that from other places or forums, from my days traveling to Missouri(show me State) and that always is not what you know is what can you prove. You see a picture is worth a thousand words. Here is more prove of it!:typing::33:

[kramm]

I'm having the same issue's with my pm45 as Mr.Wyn.
when I contacted Kahr their response was to read the owners manuel. I had ,but I reread it. I've since returned it to Kahr. They got it today. I'm thankful Mr. Wyn explained the issue so well. Hopefully they will look at mine for the same thing.

[wyntrout]

Kramm, was yours doing like in my pictures -- the slide "stripper" resting on the cartridge rim rather than behind it?
I think it only happened with full magazines and pulling the slide all the way to the rear would probably have gotten the "stripper" behind the cartridge and then allowed the cartridge to be pushed forward into the chamber. But you certainly couldn't chamber a round with the slide locked back as the manual suggests doing.
From looking at the PM9, the PM45 didn't have much tolerance -- no "gap" like the PM9 had. I wonder what they will do to correct that. Beveling the lower leading edge of the stripper is a work-around what looks like a design or manufacturing flaw.:confused:
FedEx picked mine up Tuesday around 1PM, I believe. I hope there's a quick turnaround for both of us. I'm sure we're not the only ones with this particular problem.
Wynn

[kramm]

Yes it was. I also found as you did that by pulling the slide by hand that it would chamber the round. My other issue was that it would jam the round into the top of the barrel. I think the mags. may have something to do with that. Kahr told me my pm4544n was made on 1-25-10, so it should be an up-to date model.

[wyntrout]

I tried 2-3 times each to load the 5-shot mags, but didn't get a round chambered until I tried the 6-shot extended grip several times and then the 7-shot spare. I really never tried fully pulling the slide to the rear... at least not successfully, to chamber a round. I came up with the "squeeze-crunch" which worked, but I knew something was wrong there.
I did like how it shot after I got a round chambered, and that it fit my PM9's Minituck makes me think I could carry it CCW more ably than I had thought.

I weighed my Kahrs on a scale with 1 gram resolution accurate to +/- 10%:

Empty with mag / Bullets alone / Fully loaded
K9: 25.785 oz. / 3.492 oz. (7+1) / 29.383 oz.
PM45: 18.977 oz. / 4.48 oz. (5+1) / 23.386 oz.
PM9: 16.472 oz. / 3.069 oz. (6+1) / 19.5 oz.

Fully loaded, the PM45 is only 4.1 oz. more than the PM9 and 6 oz. less than the K9.
The P380 should be just a little under 14 oz. fully loaded.

Some comparison pictures (guns weren't cleaned yet):

[kramm]

I tried several things to try and get the rounds to chamber, kind of trial & error.
I really like the size of the pistol,a little thick but not as thick as my G36 and alot easier to conceal. I have a Bianchi pro 100 holster, I like the leather. I had bought it for the G36 but got a holster from High Noon, and use it for the glock. I had to tighten it up some and it doe's really well. I'm carring a PPK-380 while waiting for the Kahr to come home.A little light on power but better than throwing rocks.

[Bawanna]

I tried several things to try and get the rounds to chamber, kind of trial & error.
I really like the size of the pistol,a little thick but not as thick as my G36 and alot easier to conceal. I have a Bianchi pro 100 holster, I like the leather. I had bought it for the G36 but got a holster from High Noon, and use it for the glock. I had to tighten it up some and it doe's really well. I'm carring a PPK-380 while waiting for the Kahr to come home.A little light on power but better than throwing rocks.

If all things were running as they should you would opt for the PM45 over the G36? Without reservation? Brutal honesty requested. I'm hankering for a PM45 as everyone here by now knows but I'm a bit timid. I had a 36 before and a 30 and most of the others. Was thinking of getting another 36 until the PM's are worked out or better yet they make a steel 45 like a K series.
Just kind of curious to add your thoughts to the rest.

[wyntrout]

I've never fired a Glock and I just held one helping those ladies at the range the other day, but looks and size and action would make me choose the Kahr, but then I have never liked the thick, blocky Glocks. Come on in... the water's fine. After a trip or two back to the mothership for tweaking, (Ha! Ha!) you'll have the most compact and shootable .45 acp. JMHO, of course and I admit to bias!:D:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

Wynn:p

Don't forget the DLC... N/S optional... according to preference, but try to avoid that buyers' remorse.:D

[Vinikahr]

I've never fired a Glock and I just held one helping those ladies at the range the other day, but looks and size and action would make me choose the Kahr, but then I have never liked the thick, blocky Glocks. Come on in... the water's fine. After a trip or two back to the mothership for tweaking, (Ha! Ha!) you'll have the most compact and shootable .45 acp. JMHO, of course and I admit to bias!:D:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

Wynn:p

Don't forget the DLC... N/S optional... according to preference, but try to avoid that buyers' remorse.:D

Every gun out there with polymer frame, are a copy and or improvement of the Glock design even our beloved Kahrs. I loved them both. Every gun that I own has a mission!:phone::typing:

[kramm]

If all things were equal and the pm45 was running as well as the glock doe's, I would take the kahr 1st.( because of the size). With the issues I've had with the pm45 I will need to regain confidence in it. I'm sure the issues can be delt with and it will as trustworthy as the glock. I would buy it again even knowing what I know now.

[a.squibload]

Hopefully it is a magazine problem, I forget, did you try more than one?
I bought extra PM40 mags from Kahr, one 6-round was not sealed in a bag, maybe used &
returned? No scratches, looked OK. It would not pick up the last round, and would
unlatch after round 5 was fired. Didn't drop out, just "unclicked". Sent it back, they sent
me a good one, works fine.

[jbaker]

If all things were running as they should you would opt for the PM45 over the G36? Without reservation? Brutal honesty requested. I'm hankering for a PM45 as everyone here by now knows but I'm a bit timid. I had a 36 before and a 30 and most of the others. Was thinking of getting another 36 until the PM's are worked out or better yet they make a steel 45 like a K series.
Just kind of curious to add your thoughts to the rest.
i really had to hang my head down before i typed this i woyuld choose the glock, NO WAIT... like you said if all things running as they should I WOULD PICK THE GLOCK, no im just messing around all things equal/EQUAL for a sub compact 45 i would , and did pick THE KAHR PM45 ALL THE WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.................. .............

[jocko]

i really had to hang my head down before i typed this i woyuld choose the glock, NO WAIT... like you said if all things running as they should I WOULD PICK THE GLOCK, no im just messing around all things equal/EQUAL for a sub compact 45 i would , and did pick THE KAHR PM45 ALL THE WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.................. .............

my G19, best shooter I have ever owned. great gun, but u must like it to, it has it quirks some hat ethe blockeness of them, Bigger fatter grip. Never the two been an issue with me. Just a great gun.

That being said it tends to be my home safe queen, as my PM9 just fits in my pocket so perfectly and it has never let me down in over 25,000 rounds and as u all know if your glock or sig or hk or what ever is sitting at home and your out somewhere, then they really aren't worth a sh-t..:typing: My PM9 fills that void perfectly every day..

Now if glock made a 9mm the size of the PM9 in weight to, would I own one?? You betcha I would.

[jbaker]

G19 grip fits me perfectly,the pm45 grip is fine for me too with the 5rnd mag i can get my pinky on and thats all that matters ,i like it, now back to this thread let me check and see if my pm45's breech face has a gap, hold on---- yes it does, verry little, but the stripper does sit behind the cartrage and if i pull the slide back all the way which is im sure how far it goes back when fireing the gap is bigger(plenty of room) mine was made in 08 though ser number sa745#

[Vinikahr]

my G19, best shooter I have ever owned. great gun, but u must like it to, it has it quirks some hat ethe blockeness of them, Bigger fatter grip. Never the two been an issue with me. Just a great gun.

That being said it tends to be my home safe queen, as my PM9 just fits in my pocket so perfectly and it has never let me down in over 25,000 rounds and as u all know if your glock or sig or hk or what ever is sitting at home and your out somewhere, then they really aren't worth a sh-t..:typing: My PM9 fills that void perfectly every day..

Now if glock made a 9mm the size of the PM9 in weight to, would I own one?? You betcha I would.

It is important that if you carry a gun on you all the time, strange things happen when you do not have one on you. I carry 24/7 (yes you read correctly 24/7:eek:). Since Glock is not willing to give me (us) what I (we) want and other manufactures are, hence I own the Kahrs line which are my second favorite weapons on me. As the Oracle indicated(echo) should Glock come out with one that is as portable and convenient as the Kahr, I would buy it on heart beat!:phone::33:

[Centaur 1]

Brass jackets wont' hurt a thing. It's softer than copper, harder than lead, and both have been shot for a long time out of barrels without a problem. Still way softer than the steel used in barrels, so no issues.

Heck, I'm looking at the required equipment to start making .45cal FMJ/JHP out of .40 casings and cast lead, and .40 FMJ/JHP out of 9mm casings and cast lead.

Hey everyone, I hate to go off topic like this but I feel that it's an important subject. Brass is much harder than copper. I did a little experimenting on my own when the only .357 magnum ammo that Walmart had was brass jacketed ammo. I shot and recovered both brass jacketed and copper jacketed bullets, then I did some measuring. The first thing that I noticed was the rifling marks on the bullets, they were much deeper on the copper jackets. The copper jackets were not only deeply engraved, but the outside diameter of the bullet was .357" which is the same as the groove diameter of my barrel. My barrel has a bore diameter of .351, which makes my rifling grooves .003" each. When I inspected the brass jacketed bullets the first thing that I noticed was that the rifling marks were barely noticeable. The outside diameter of these bullets were only .353", and the base of the bullets were severely deformed. What this means is that the outside of these bullets were squeezed from .357" down to .353" and the rifling marks were only .001" deep versus the .003" depth on the copper jackets. Two things are happening with the brass bullets when they're fired. First, the bullets are being swaged .004" smaller which takes a considerable amount of force, this will wear out a barrel much faster than with copper jacketed bullets. The second thing that is going on is the lack of a gas seal between the bullet and the barrel, since the bullet is being crushed .004" smaller than the groove diameter.

[jeep45238]

That has nothing to do with hardness. It does have everything to do with original size vs. bore size.

Let me guess the brass jacketed bullet you were testing : Remington Golden saber?

Golden sabers are smaller than usual everywhere but the very base, there it is slightly larger than normal. They call this the 'driving band', which allows a good gas seal and reduces friction between the barrel and the bullet.

What you were measuring has nothing to do with hardness or young's modulus.

[jbaker]

glock NEEDS to make a single stack line of sub-compacts

[jocko]

glock NEEDS to make a single stack line of sub-compacts

what I have been told. Like their 380 glock, it cannot be imported to the U.S. as it does not meet the minimum point requirement of rimportation, Only for sale to LEO's.

Same thing goes for the single stack glock. lack of points to import. Might be a cop out to but one would think that making a lighweight single stack in the size of kahrs would make alot of sense, unless glock cannot squeeze all their lower parts into such a thinner style frame..:banplease:

[jbaker]

what I have been told. Like their 380 glock, it cannot be imported to the U.S. as it does not meet the minimum point requirement of rimportation, Only for sale to LEO's.

Same thing goes for the single stack glock. lack of points to import. Might be a cop out to but one would think that making a lighweight single stack in the size of kahrs would make alot of sense, unless glock cannot squeeze all their lower parts into such a thinner style frame..:banplease:
you and the lower parts issue;) if they built around the current ejector housing and locking block a single stack mag they could stuff all 11:Dparts in a thin frame

[jbaker]

they also probably dont build a single stack bc they dont care. i mean they have a good portion of the hg market as is, there doing fine and dont probably see the need.

[jeep45238]

they also probably dont build a single stack bc they dont care. i mean they have a good portion of the hg market as is, there doing fine and dont probably see the need.


Looking at the Gen 4 changes, it sure looks like the M&P series put a shiver down Glock's spine ;)

[jocko]

Looking at the Gen 4 changes, it sure looks like the M&P series put a shiver down Glock's spine ;)

so, I think Smith has captured some of the hughe market share glock owns with LEO agencies. It is really a nice gun IMO. certainly no better than a glock but probably just as good. Fur sure better looking. Oh and did someone mention AMERICAN MADE.

[kramm]

Hopefully it is a magazine problem, I forget, did you try more than one?
I bought extra PM40 mags from Kahr, one 6-round was not sealed in a bag, maybe used &
returned? No scratches, looked OK. It would not pick up the last round, and would
unlatch after round 5 was fired. Didn't drop out, just "unclicked". Sent it back, they sent
me a good one, works fine.


I used the two that came with it. Both did the same thing . It may not be the magazines, just wishful thinking.

[wyntrout]

I got up a little late this morning ~ 1030 AM... wifey gone... note says to Avenues Mall... hunting... I mean shopping -- woman thing.:rolleyes:

I was going to get my coffee and I see a package on the table... about the right size... "Adult Signature Require". IT's back! Woohoo!

03/15/2010

Problem Reported:
FAILURE TO FEED. 2 MAGS

Action Taken:
INSPECTED GUN. REPLACED EJECTOR, RECOIL SPRING. POLISHED FEED RAMP, EXTRACTOR. LUBED TEST FIRED GOOD.

No warning it was coming as in tracking to make sure I was home. FedEx Priority Overnight. Less than 7x24 hours -- left last Tuesday at 1 PM or so.

It looks good as far as the "Gap" between the rear of the top cartridge of a FULL magazine (5-round) and the "stripper" at the leading bottom edge of the striker housing. I tried both magazines -- the same ones I sent with the gun. Both are okay.
I include a couple of photos of the problem and one of the repaired gun with the correct "Gap" and a couple of photos of a few rounds of my old reloaded ammo -- "flying ashtray-types". The left cavity is really deep -- more than twice the one on the right.
I'll get to the range for a quick test later, maybe 100 rounds of Blazer 230-gr FMJ.

Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Looks more promising Mr. Wyn. Can you tell looking at the bottom of the slide if they modified that angle that one of the other guys had changed. Just curious if that's how they obviously changed that gap. Would make sense. Get out and shoot it, I'm anxiously awaiting your report.:cool:

[wyntrout]

Good morning Bawanna'. I was thinking of sending you an email. From what I can see, it does look like they may have taken the squared edge off, but that wouldn't leave a gap if that's all they did, the stripper would be rounded enough to push its way past the rear of the cartridge base rim and nestle against the rear. They did something that causes the gap, but I don't know if it was just a different ejector. I'll check that against earlier pictures when I clean it after the next range trip... soon.
Since I joined the range for a year, I can just pop in and out without having to spend hours there getting my money's worth.:D
I'm going to fire those old rounds I found and see how they shoot. I think that I used to load them to about 950 or so fps instead of 850 fps -- standard.
I can't believe how deep one of those cavities is -- almost to the base!

It is strange that I didn't get an email saying that the gun was on the way. Wifey signed for it, which is fortunate. I stay up late, if you can call snoozing in the TV chair off and on staying up!:D Then I do my little chores like setting up the coffee pot and putting the dishes into the DW and firing it off, etc.
My wife is usually out on the back porch with her coffee and ciggies after she gets up and wouldn't hear the doorbell, so that's the "fortunate" part.

The ramp ought to be polished enough now. I did it and did it again after I found a tiny sharp catch or burr on the lower right of the feed ramp before I sent it back to Kahr. So they've polished it again and things ought to be fine now. I had tried to make the underside of the ejector more like the one on the PM9 with my "Dremel-like" tool and make a little more clearance so that the ejectjor was not pressing the rear of the cartridge down. I took a bit out of the inside of the frame opposite the ejector!:eek:

I hope that ejected cases aren't flying at my forehead anymore. I'm taking a Kahr cap inside this time!:D
I just put my second attempt at the inner tube grip cover on the grip -- looks good. I had to lengthen it about 3/16" or so. This should continue to cover those sharp nibs and not ride up.
Now I need to assemble a new target. I have one silhouette left. I need to get some more at the next GS. So far, I have only gotten two range trips out of each target because the cardboard gets shot away and the patching tape does not give structure. I'm going to use a bit of that 3M Scotch Strapping tape to reinforce the top of the cardboard, so it will last at least ONE session and not fall off. I use twine to back up the clamp at the top.
Well, I need to get going here with breakfast... or lunch (12:13 PM!) and take my pills, etc.
Later!
Wynn:)

It's a brighter and sunnier day now... and it's not just because of the beautiful weather!:D

[Bawanna]

I dont think the ejector would have any effect on that gap. Putting an angle on that guide on the bottom of the slide would push the cartridge forward as you insert the mag creating the gap. (I think). The gap is there that's the main thing. Hopefully the new ejector will redirect the spent cases in a direction other than your forehead. I did kind of like that fella's suggestion about the maxi pads. I'd put a big red star on the front sort of like a samurai warrior head band. Or you could just wear the hat if you want to remain low key.
I just got my fingers crossed that she runs like a swiss ???? car? Seriously we're all routin for ya. One trip back to the mother ship should be enough, she should run although them homemade flying ashtrays may not like the trip up that feed ramp much. I'd sure try em but not be dissapointed if they hang up.;)

[wyntrout]

M'aidez! M'aidez! Je suis blessé -- un coup de papier!

Dang! I sustained a grievous injury while constructing my paper opponent! He got in the first lick -- a cruel paper cut!:eek: I'll have my revenge, though. No doubt he sought to incapacitate my shooting hand with this cowardly act, but I'll persevere and have my duel with him... if a bit one-sided... wounded as I am. :faint2:
Pix include Mr. Silhouette and the cruel and unjust wound he delivered me before the formal hostilities had commenced:

Wynn:2rolleyes::crazy::33:

[getsome]

Hi Wynn, hope you teach that BG target a thing or two about messing with a Kahr owner....Hope your PM45 runs like a top now....You know what bothers me is how industry in general has placed so much emphasis on production that quality control is taking a back seat (Toyota)...In my company in years past we took great pride in being the best and doing it right the first time every time Sure every now and then something would get through but now it seems that a 35% defect rate is ok...Sell it now and we will fix is later.....I went to Micky D's for lunch the other day and when I got back to the office I opened my Big Mac and found it had no buns just meat, pickles and sauce...Now how did that happen I wonder?....I know that Kahr is taking care of customers problem guns but I hope they will see the light and maybe slow down and get it right the first time, they know how to make a quality product but are making so many pistols so fast that things are getting out of the factory with problems that should have been spotted by QC...IMHO with CNC machining and modern automated assembly lines there is no excuse for a barrel to leave final production out of spec unless all of them are out of spec....Oh well I'll shut up now....Good luck Wynn...Shoot um up !!!!:86:

[Bawanna]

I agree with Mr. Getsome. I'd give that silohette a little what for and couple more for good measure. I'm sorry but based on the photo's the comittee doesn't feel that even though you were grievously wounded in battle it does not merit a purple heart. We'll gladly supply a small quantity of neosporin and several tootsie roll pops for your comfort. AFTER we see some after range photos. Man up, swallow the discomfort and get out on the battlefield. We're counting on you.
I also agree once again with Mr. Getsome on todays quality control issues. There is absolutely no excuse for some of the stuff that gets out to consumers. The prices astronomical, the quality dismal at best. I think alot of it as you said worker pride. Even a lifetime warranty isn't worth beans if your product spends more time getting repaired than doing what you bought it for. How do we fix it? Make workers ride for the brand again and take pride in their product.
A Big Mac without a bun? That's gotta be close to the top of the heap in poor quality. Hope you went back and complained immensely.:mad:

[getsome]

I felt like it but I no Habla Espanol, know what I mean? Oh and here is another great deal I ran into from Poop Boys Auto Parts...I bought lifetime warranty brake pads for my truck the last time, paid extra for the best pads they sell....So last fall they needed replacement before winter so I took the old pads back to the store to exchange for new ones....Get this, the manager said that lifetime warranty means the lifetime of the pad not the lifetime that you own the vehicle....So in reality they guarantee that the pads will wear out....Again there will be icebergs in he!! before I ever spend another dime with Poop Boys....:mad:

[wyntrout]

I just got back from the range and don't have time for photos, but I shot 50 Blazer 230-gr FMJ, 4 miscellaneous old reloads, 6 Rem. 230-gr GS BJHP, and 50 Wolf 230-gr FMJ, steel-cased for a total of 110 rounds. I only had one failure to feed and that was at round 100 with the Wolf ammo. I used a Q-tip to swab at the feed and ramp and finished up with no problem.
I also fired 6 of my Double Tap 124-Gr JHP +P for flash test of my 9mm. I didn't get a video of that the other day.
Again... the PM45 is a joy to shoot and I can keep the hits on the head at 7 yards without too much trouble -- so much easier to shoot than my PM9! The 6 rounds of 9mm I fired -- one hit the head and the rest were out in the 8 o'clock area!
I know which one I ought to be carrying now! Anyhow, the PM45 is CCW ready!
Blazers okay. GS okay... just a bit more recoil. Wolf -- stinky and smoky and dirty! Yech! I still have two or three hundred (250?) rounds of that stuff to shoot up. It will have to be last -- it sure ain't SMOKELESS!
Got to do some chores and then cook supper. Will try to get the photos later, but great trip to the range.
Wynn:D

[getsome]

Happy for you Wyn, Glad your baby is doing its thing now!!!...:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

[In-Yo-Grill]

Just another testimony that shows that Kahr stands behind their product. Especially when the range is hot...lol

Glad to see it all worked out for you.

[Vinikahr]

Great to hear!

[Bawanna]

Outstanding MR. Wyn. I'm filled with joy for you. I never had any use for that Wolf ammo. People use it, people are ok with it but the steel case stuff just doesn't blow my dress up even a little. I'm not sure you put enough defense ammo thru to give it the CCW approval but if you think your there, your there.
Kahr has managed to keep me on the want list. My issue is I want a running PM45 from the get go or without going back to the mother ship. I'll accept the breakin period, no problem but not going back for a tweak.
And Mr. Getsome, I feel your pain on those brake pads. You see this stuff even more with auto stuff. It just never ends. I went thru a similar deal with Firestone many years ago, ruined my brakes during turning, wanted me to pay to replace. A note to Firestone headquarters along with copies of 25 years worth of buying their tires netted me a free complete brake job at another shop plus the dismissal of the store manager. The big guys cared, the indians didn't.

[wyntrout]

Thanks, guys. I'm sure glad to have the .45 back. I kind of feel guilty about shooting it better than the PM9. I don't know why, but it just seems easier to shoot and hit where I want with the .45!

I used a 1.75" bike tube and cut it a bit longer than the first try. It's perfect now. I wore my glove for most of the shooting because of my "wound." The tube doesn't clash with my sense of aesthetics or whatever.:p

Did any of you guys that sent in your guns for repair get a notice that it was being shipped back? I expected notice and tracking info since an adult signature was needed for delivery. I was lucky that my wife was in the house and signed for me. I guess they would have let me sign for it, had I been awake and answered the door. I kind of LOOK like an adult.:p Not everybody is retired and at home most of the time, though.

I'll check out the "stripper" to see if they beveled that a bit... it could be, but it's hard to tell until I strip it and clean it. That Wolf ammo is nasty stuff. I think that I had put the camera away before I started shooting that. I can't wait to get the stink of that stuff off my gun, but I have to start cooking soon and I need to clean off my desk/work table and turn it into the dining table again.:blushing: Prime rib tonight for my wife and corned beef tomorrow night -- St. Patty's Day.
I only cook real meals when she's off. She's gonna have five days off soon and I'll be busy -- got to go out some!
Hasta la vista, amigos.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

I trust your last shooting adventure didn't cause complications with that edged weapon trauma? I suppose we could reconsider the purple heart deal if need be. Need we send plasma? How did the culprit who inflicted that wound come out in the end anyhow. I assume he hurts much worse than you although those nasty paper cuts can hurt like a beach.
I just had a tooth yanked about an hour ago, face it still numb and drooling, just like home for this derelict. Just have to empty the drool cup more often. Don't effect my shooting none. Dentist didnt even make me take off my gun. Said if I reached for it, he'd know he was hurting me and would stop. Worked out real well. I'm scart of dentist real bad.

[Vinikahr]

Thanks, guys. I'm sure glad to have the .45 back. I kind of feel guilty about shooting it better than the PM9. I don't know why, but it just seems easier to shoot and hit where I want with the .45!

I used a 1.75" bike tube and cut it a bit longer than the first try. It's perfect now. I wore my glove for most of the shooting because of my "wound." The tube doesn't clash with my sense of aesthetics or whatever.:p

Did any of you guys that sent in your guns for repair get a notice that it was being shipped back? I expected notice and tracking info since an adult signature was needed for delivery. I was lucky that my wife was in the house and signed for me. I guess they would have let me sign for it, had I been awake and answered the door. I kind of LOOK like an adult.:p Not everybody is retired and at home most of the time, though.

I'll check out the "stripper" to see if they beveled that a bit... it could be, but it's hard to tell until I strip it and clean it. That Wolf ammo is nasty stuff. I think that I had put the camera away before I started shooting that. I can't wait to get the stink of that stuff off my gun, but I have to start cooking soon and I need to clean off my desk/work table and turn it into the dining table again.:blushing: Prime rib tonight for my wife and corned beef tomorrow night -- St. Patty's Day.
I only cook real meals when she's off. She's gonna have five days off soon and I'll be busy -- got to go out some!
Hasta la vista, amigos.
Wynn:D
That is a reason why I am .45 guy!:86::behindsofa::banplease:

[wyntrout]

Monsieur Silhouette is a little worse for wear, but he'll do for at least one more trip to the range after I patch up all of those Wolf bullet holes. That will be some major patchwork. I finally started cutting up my 58" Samsung Plasma TV box -- lots of nice thick card board, though it can bite you if you're not careful. Those dang coups de papier can be painful.
Well, I have to start the prime rib and then clean off the "dining table". I have a nice inexpensive($13 at Total Wine) Bourdeaux Supérieur ready to come out of the wine cooler to go with it -- 2005 Chateau de Camarsac, aged in Oak for 8 months. I love California and Australian wine, but zee French know how to make the superb dry reds.:D
Later.
Wynn

Oh, I don't think all of the ejected cases are coming back at me anymore. I did wear a Kahr hat on this outing, though... and my shooting glasses... and earplugs... and a good set of "earmuff' protectors. I don't need to lose any more of my hearing.:p

[Bawanna]

Oh, I don't think all of the ejected cases are coming back at me anymore. I did wear a Kahr hat on this outing, though... and my shooting glasses... and earplugs... and a good set of "earmuff' protectors. I don't need to lose any more of my hearing.:p[/QUOTE]

And just when we had the maxi pad bandana system all figured out. Well I guess I'll throw that future business venture idea in the trash can.
I'll have to throw my holy water bullet scheme out sometime to test the waters. I think it might just fly.

[kramm]

Mr. Wynn, glad you had a good trip to the range. I haven't heard any thing from Kahr. I'm retired and home . Get up kinda early so if they come I'm here waiting. Sure hope mine is up and running soon.

[tomwalshco]

So what is the final verdict on the feed issues? Magazines?

The pics make it appear that the slide is not retracting far enough. Maybe something was causing it to stop prematurely before it reached full open. But then, the slide stop wouldn't engage. curious...

I'm seriously thinking of selling my Glock 36 and getting a PM45, but this makes me rethink. If this truely is a design flaw issue there would be PM45 owners screaming on every gun forum on the net.

I remember a similar issue with a Kel-Tec model a while back and someone came up with the idea of straightening a paper clip and running it up inside the back of the mag, forcing the round to sit just enough forward so the stripper lug would grab it as it moved forward.

[jeep45238]

The pics make it appear that the slide is not retracting far enough. Maybe something was causing it to stop prematurely before it reached full open. But then, the slide stop wouldn't engage. curious...



That's what has me intrigued.

The slide in the PM45's that we've seen here for the most part either don't work, or notch the metal in the slide between the guide rod hole and the barrel hole, or run 100% AFTER that notch is made.

Me thinks that Kahr hasn't fully machined the slide, which is causing it to bottom out against the guide rod, which is causing many failures to feed/eject/lock back.

[tomwalshco]

Good points. Maybe he had the wrong recoil springs installed in there that when fully compressed, the slide would still not retract all the way back. Might have been P45 springs which has a slightly longer barrel, possibly another coil longer???

[tomwalshco]

The guy assembling the PM45s may be sitting next to the guy assembling the P45s and if he drops a recoil spring on the floor, who could tell the difference ????

But that doesn't make sense either because in the slide lock position, the lug/breech face still doesn't reach the back of the round. Never mind, i guess....

[jeep45238]

The guy assembling the PM45s may be sitting next to the guy assembling the P45s and if he drops a recoil spring on the floor, who could tell the difference ????


Easy peasy - first, seperate the work stations with some sort of small barrier to reduce/eliminate that.

Second, take the closed ends of the unknown and a known spring, and hold them together. See if the diameter matches.

Third, take the unknown spring and measure the thickness of the wire, and put it closed end on your work table right against a known spring and look at uncompressed height. If that is the same, good.

While they are standing, orient the open end of each spring 180* opposite (i.e. one at 6, one at 12). Each coil should be touching it's 'mate' on the unknown spring if they are the same.







Couldn't resist :D

[gb6491]

I remember a similar issue with a Kel-Tec model a while back and someone came up with the idea of straightening a paper clip and running it up inside the back of the mag, forcing the round to sit just enough forward so the stripper lug would grab it as it moved forward.
The "paper clip in the back of the magazine" fix is known a "Flyer wire" (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/flyerwire.htm). It does indeed force the rounds to sit further forward in the magazine, but it's purpose is to prevent "rimlock" (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/rimlock.htm) when using hollow point ammo (shorter OAL) in the KT P32. KT now sells an adapter kit for the P32 magazines.



The guy assembling the PM45s may be sitting next to the guy assembling the P45s and if he drops a recoil spring on the floor, who could tell the difference ????

My CW45 had the same issue.


But that doesn't make sense either because in the slide lock position, the lug/breech face still doesn't reach the back of the round. Never mind, i guess....
Correct, it's at the slide lock position where the problem occurs. This is pretty much independent of spring length (I've checked with the guide rod and spring removed).
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

No, the issue was not magazines. They replaced my ejector which was one possible contributor to the NO GAP between the rear of the top cartridge in a FULL magazine and the forward face of the striker housing and the "stripper" part. The repaired gun has a small gap with all full magazines and there are no feeding issues. I include photos of the before and after "stripper" because they definitely beveled it, but there would be a gap without the bevel. This is most important when trying to chamber the first round of a full magazine. Pulling the slide to the rear and releasing it would have overcome the no-gap problem since there is one with the slide all the way to the rear.
I put the short bike tube on the PM9 and it fits. Without looking at the BORE, they look very similar now.
As I stated, in firing 110 rounds yesterday, I had one failure to feed at round #100 and I think it was just the soot from the nasty, stink, smoky Wolf ammo. I wiped the ramp a little with a Q-tip and pressed on... no problems.
I notice that there is a difference in the slides, besides the bevel near the muzzle of the two PMs.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Wouldn't that bevel push the top cartridge in the magazine forward enough to create that gap? With out it the top round would just hit that edge and may or may not get routed where it belongs. I think that little bevel is the cure. Sling shot mode would force that sharp corner behind the rim of the top round and all would be well. Followup rounds would work the same way since the slide is going full rear each shot.
I'm just glad it seems to work for ya now.

[jeep45238]

Wouldn't that bevel push the top cartridge in the magazine forward enough to create that gap? With out it the top round would just hit that edge and may or may not get routed where it belongs. I think that little bevel is the cure. Sling shot mode would force that sharp corner behind the rim of the top round and all would be well. Followup rounds would work the same way since the slide is going full rear each shot.
I'm just glad it seems to work for ya now.

Shouldn't push the mag, it creates a vertical gap and rearward longitudinal gap, allowing it to clear.

I suspect of it as a permanent fix if the mag springs weaken on the last shot. The pessimistic in me sees it pushing the round into the mag long term, not into the feed ramp.

[gb6491]

No, the issue was not magazines. They replaced my ejector which was one possible contributor to the NO GAP between the rear of the top cartridge in a FULL magazine and the forward face of the striker housing and the "stripper" part. The repaired gun has a small gap with all full magazines and there are no feeding issues. I include photos of the before and after "stripper" because they definitely beveled it, but there would be a gap without the bevel. This is most important when trying to chamber the first round of a full magazine. Pulling the slide to the rear and releasing it would have overcome the no-gap problem since there is one with the slide all the way to the rear.
I pretty confident that the bevel is the fix. If you slowly insert a loaded magazine (with rounds seated fully rearward) into the pistol, you should see that the rim still comes up under the part of the slide that strips the round (http://i49.tinypic.com/55rmkh.jpg). Then it hits the the bevel and moves forward of the breech face; there will be a gap between the round and the slide at this point (at least that's how it works with my CW45).
Whatever the fix, I'm glad they got it working for you:)
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

It wouldn't push the mag which would be a bad thing but it should push the cartridge itself forward to clear the breach face.

[tomwalshco]

I just don't see how the ejector has anything to do with it unless it's bent downward. The only thing it should touch is a spent casing.

[Bawanna]

I just don't see how the ejector has anything to do with it unless it's bent downward. The only thing it should touch is a spent casing.

I think our entries crossed in the mail. I agree with you. That bevel is pushing the cartridge forward as the magazine is inserted. Can't be anything else. The ejector isn't in the scenario.
Should be able as you mentioned to remove the slide and watch it in slow motion safely and prove our hypotanuesus or what ever rocket scientist call our scientific wild assed guess.

[wyntrout]

Wouldn't that bevel push the top cartridge in the magazine forward enough to create that gap? With out it the top round would just hit that edge and may or may not get routed where it belongs. I think that little bevel is the cure. Sling shot mode would force that sharp corner behind the rim of the top round and all would be well. Followup rounds would work the same way since the slide is going full rear each shot.
I'm just glad it seems to work for ya now.

Good call. You're right, Bawanna'. I put a full magazine in and watched the top cartridge get shoved forward in the magazine.** It works.
We now have several "fixes" for the DIY crowd -- "machining" your own "notch" in the slide and beveling the "stripper" part of the slide... at their own risk, of course.
**I just tested the magazine being pushed forward by the bevel pushing on the cartidge -- that is indeed what is happening. The cartridge stays to the rear of the magazine. Where I was hearing the "crunch" before with the "squeeze" method of seating the magazine, I now get a pretty good "clack" or "snap" which sounds more "wholesome".:D
Wynn

[tomwalshco]

Agree - and the reason it doesn't happen on the lower rounds is that they get pulled forward from friction of the round above and stop when they hit the front of the mag. So they are already staged in the forward position.

Bawanna, I see you're looking at getting a PM45, too. Want to replace my Glock 36 (even though it's been perfect) because the Kahr is a little slimmer, lighter and smaller profile. Bud's is the best I can find new for $661, free ship. Don't have the patience to do the GunBroker tango...

So I've been reading as many bad experiences as I can find to surmise whether it's operator error, a lemon here and there, or a model that needs a bit more tweeking in the engineering department. Was hoping more happy PM45 owners would chime in.

So trout, do you think the factory just forgot to bevel that edge?

[gb6491]

Agree - and the reason it doesn't happen on the lower rounds is that they get pulled forward from friction of the round above and stop when they hit the front of the mag. So they are already staged in the forward position.

That is probably probably part of the equation; the slide is also moving further rearward during operation (past the point where the intial problem was occurring) allowing the subsequent rounds to move into place unhindered.
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

Agree - and the reason it doesn't happen on the lower rounds is that they get pulled forward from friction of the round above and stop when they hit the front of the mag. So they are already staged in the forward position.

Bawanna, I see you're looking at getting a PM45, too. Want to replace my Glock 36 (even though it's been perfect) because the Kahr is a little slimmer, lighter and smaller profile. Bud's is the best I can find new for $661, free ship. Don't have the patience to do the GunBroker tango...

So I've been reading as many bad experiences as I can find to surmise whether it's operator error, a lemon here and there, or a model that needs a bit more tweeking in the engineering department. Was hoping more happy PM45 owners would chime in.

So trout, do you think the factory just forgot to bevel that edge?

NO. The PM9 has no bevel. I think it's just a "fix". It works and others figured the same fix out and made earlier posts on this thread... at least one CW45. Notice that the PM9 has plenty of "gap" and works fine with the squared off stripper.
Wynn

[wyntrout]

That is probably probably part of the equation; the slide is also moving further rearward during operation (past the point where the intial problem was occurring) allowing the subsequent rounds to move into place unhindered.
Regards,
Greg

Very true there, too.

[wyntrout]

I think that a lot of the problems with PM45s can be identified with the looking for the notch at the front of the slide and slowly inserting a full magazine with the slide locked back and see if the stripper winds up aft of the cartridge and chambers okay when the slide is released by the slide release.
Are there any other problems identified that these two things might not have caused??
You could check for this before firing and return it for repair or "fixing" those two problems, or test it first, if it's just the latter problem. The notch should be done by Kahr under warranty, unless you feel real competent at "machining" the notch.:D
Wynn

[Bawanna]

Bawanna, I see you're looking at getting a PM45, too. Want to replace my Glock 36 (even though it's been perfect) because the Kahr is a little slimmer, lighter and smaller profile. Bud's is the best I can find new for $661, free ship. Don't have the patience to do the GunBroker tango...

So I've been reading as many bad experiences as I can find to surmise whether it's operator error, a lemon here and there, or a model that needs a bit more tweeking in the engineering department. Was hoping more happy PM45 owners would chime in.

So trout, do you think the factory just forgot to bevel that edge?[/QUOTE]

I'm in the same boat. I was waitin for Kahr to get the PM45 squared away. I don't have the patience to yo yo back and forth to the mother ship. I was thinking of getting another G36, had one years ago, sold it to a cop after 911 and none were available. I think that beveled edge would be a good place to polish up real pretty also. I've bought a few from Bud's and I agree that seems to be a competitive price. Maybe I'll just do it now that we know how to fix it. Is that really right though. Pay 600 bucks and then have to tweak it to run. We're supporting the downfall of quality control. I'm poor now anyhow so I'll just watch for awhile. Maybe Mr. Wyn will sell me his one day. NOT.

[In-Yo-Grill]

Bawanna, I see you're looking at getting a PM45, too. Want to replace my Glock 36 (even though it's been perfect) because the Kahr is a little slimmer, lighter and smaller profile. Bud's is the best I can find new for $661, free ship. Don't have the patience to do the GunBroker tango...

So I've been reading as many bad experiences as I can find to surmise whether it's operator error, a lemon here and there, or a model that needs a bit more tweeking in the engineering department. Was hoping more happy PM45 owners would chime in.

So trout, do you think the factory just forgot to bevel that edge?

I'm in the same boat. I was waitin for Kahr to get the PM45 squared away. I don't have the patience to yo yo back and forth to the mother ship. I was thinking of getting another G36, had one years ago, sold it to a cop after 911 and none were available. I think that beveled edge would be a good place to polish up real pretty also. I've bought a few from Bud's and I agree that seems to be a competitive price. Maybe I'll just do it now that we know how to fix it. Is that really right though. Pay 600 bucks and then have to tweak it to run. We're supporting the downfall of quality control. I'm poor now anyhow so I'll just watch for awhile. Maybe Mr. Wyn will sell me his one day. NOT.[/QUOTE]

In the past couple of weeks I've seen some PM45's go for $550. Your patience could be worth $100 or more.

[Bawanna]

I can do patience when I'm poor. Easy to do research, comparison, talk of things to come. Maybe I'll get lucky and save a hundred bucks. That would be real special for a change. If I parted with my K40 I'd be alot closer but that Dan Wesson is still in the picture too. So many toys, so little time.

[Bawanna]

Good call. You're right, Bawanna'. I put a full magazine in and watched the top cartridge get shoved forward in the magazine.** It works.
We now have several "fixes" for the DIY crowd -- "machining" your own "notch" in the slide and beveling the "stripper" part of the slide... at their own risk, of course.
**I just tested the magazine being pushed forward by the bevel pushing on the cartidge -- that is indeed what is happening. The cartridge stays to the rear of the magazine. Where I was hearing the "crunch" before with the "squeeze" method of seating the magazine, I now get a pretty good "clack" or "snap" which sounds more "wholesome".:D
Wynn

I just wanted to bring this back to the top of the heap one more time. I was right once before, I think it was 1967 but I might be mistaken. I do believe as a group we're onto something here. Maybe we can become advisors to Kahr?

[wyntrout]

I'll post some range pictures and comparisons of flashes .45 and 9mm.
Hey, I ain't Annie Oakley or Jerry Miculek!
.45 ACP Ammo used this visit.
First mag of Blazer 230-gr FMJ
Third magazine -- first 5 numbered
4 old reloads + 3 blazers
6 Rem. Golden Saber 230-gr BJHP

[wyntrout]

Now some flashes and recoil pix:

[getsome]

Looks like another good dead criminal target to me....nice shootin, glad its working now.....

[wyntrout]

I fired a mag full of my carry 9mm -- Double Tap 124-grain Bonded Defense JHP +P, 1310fps/4.5" bbl.
I needed the videos of the flashes for comparison with the Short Barrel +P Gold Dot test that I haven't completed. I did these in a hurry and the hits show that!:2rolleyes:

Notice the LOW FLASH powder in a better lit area is still pretty bright!

Wynn

[wyntrout]

I didn't patch up the Wolf 230-gr FMJ hits. I just wanted to get out of the stink and smoke! I didn't have the camera running when I shot that. You would have at least seen the SMOKE -- stinks a lot!
Photos:
The target "Before"
The cowardly wound inflicted on my shooting hand by Mr Silhouette prior to commencement of hostilities.:eek:
The "After Target" after firing 50xWolf 230-gr FMJ, steel-cased, stinky, sooty, and smoky rounds. HA! I exacted my revenge for my nasty wound!
The last 4 shots were to the "+" in the upper left -- 3 were close:D
The 9mm ammo in prior test I need to complete.
Wynn:D:2rolleyes::crazy:

Hey, I added a fifth photo to see if you guys are awake.

[Bawanna]

Must have been tough to hold that little gun with that welding glove on? Looks like a bit of recoil but not too much considering real cartridge and small gun. Vengence was definitly yours. Mr. Wyn=1 Bad guy target=0

[jocko]

I fired a mag full of my carry 9mm -- Double Tap 124-grain Bonded Defense JHP +P, 1310fps/4.5" bbl.
I needed the videos of the flashes for comparison with the Short Barrel +P Gold Dot test that I haven't completed. I did these in a hurry and the hits show that!:2rolleyes:

Notice the LOW FLASH powder in a better lit area is still pretty bright!

Wynn

tell me at night that would not light up the sky.

[wyntrout]

That was one of those nomex/leather flying gloves in black -- goes with the DLC finish. Did you see the dream date picture I just added. Don't get too excited!
Wynn:p

[wyntrout]

tell me at night that would not light up the sky.

I think the Speer 124-gr GDHP Short Barrel HP may be lower flash. I'll post those tests soon, now that I have the DT's in better light. The first test of the "low flash" DT was over on the far side in a darker area -- pretty impressive pyrotechnics in that test.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

That was one of those nomex/leather flying gloves in black -- goes with the DLC finish. Did you see the dream date picture I just added. Don't get too excited!
Wynn:p

Good grief, would you look at the tongue on that. Must of done what that Rock star guy did and cut it so it would come out further. Had a blood hound that had a tongue on him but not sure it stacks up against hers. Pretty eyes, and hair too. Hats even pretty nice if you have enough time to look at the picture. I'm going back.

[Vinikahr]

IS that Gene Simmons' daughter in that pic ?

She sure has her daddy's tongue..................................LOL

It may be the child of one out of the 5,000 women he slept with. But is not the official one.:eek:

[Vinikahr]

Good grief, would you look at the tongue on that. Must of done what that Rock star guy did and cut it so it would come out further. Had a blood hound that had a tongue on him but not sure it stacks up against hers. Pretty eyes, and hair too. Hats even pretty nice if you have enough time to look at the picture. I'm going back.

I am trouble now, my wife is looking over my shoulders. She may be thinking I am watching porn or perverting. I may sleep on the couch tonight!:behindsofa:

[In-Yo-Grill]

Cool range pics. Those DLC Kahrs are just so danged sexy...I need another one to compliment my P45 DLC.

[wyntrout]

Yeah... I want a P380N DLC now and I haven't even gotten my P380N. ~6 to 8 months before those start showing up AGR says.:(
Wynn

[wyntrout]

I had to go get some lottery tickets and I put on the PM45 in an Uncle Mike's #12 IWB holster and tried one of the IWB mag holders at about 8 o'clock. When I tried to squeeze into our Volvo S40 next to the van, that thing dug into me and by the time I pulled out of the garage, after getting in and out of the car twice, I had put it into my left pocket -- much better. When I got home I cut the clip off one of the IWB mag holders and made it a pocket-carry holder. I have two OWB, 1 IWB, and 1 in-pocket carrier now for the .45. I'm set now for any occasion.
Based on the 9mm DT test, I switched the PM9 to the Speer 124-gr GDHP short barrel version. I shot 38 rounds of that with no problem the previous trip to the range. The Speer GDs couldn't be brighter than the DT, I don't think!
Wynn:)

[kramm]

Got my pm45 back from Kahr today. I cleaned it and took it to the range. Sorry to report that it is still not right. I knew it wouldn't be when I read what they had done. Polished the feed ramp and the slide. Does the same as it did when I sent it in. I called Kahr around 2:00 but all lines were busy. Left a call back #. I'll try calling tomorrow afternoon if I haven't heard from them. I'll give them another try. If that doesn't work I'll be getting ahold of Davidsons. I've got some pics. of it to send with it this time.I've had three different people at the range say tat it looks like a magazine problem. Tried to put pics. here but I guess I don't know how.

[Bawanna]

Got my pm45 back from Kahr today. I cleaned it and took it to the range. Sorry to report that it is still not right. I knew it wouldn't be when I read what they had done. Polished the feed ramp and the slide. Does the same as it did when I sent it in. I called Kahr around 2:00 but all lines were busy. Left a call back #. I'll try calling tomorrow afternoon if I haven't heard from them. I'll give them another try. If that doesn't work I'll be getting ahold of Davidsons. I've got some pics. of it to send with it this time.I've had three different people at the range say tat it looks like a magazine problem. Tried to put pics. here but I guess I don't know how.

Kramm, just hit the reply button, when the screen comes up go down below it and click on manage attachments. Another screen comes up, just hit browse, you can find your picture, double click, then click upload. You won't see your picture until you preview your post or submit it. I'm curious what you have happening. Same stuff as Mr. Wyn or something different.
Got a whole team here to try and help you get her running.

[kramm]

This is what it is doing.

[kramm]

Thanks Bawanna. Took me a minute.

[wyntrout]

Kramm, you don't have the same problem I've had? Is the stripper behind the base of the top cartridge of a full mag with the slide locked back? No notch problem, either? A third problem... different?
I thought you had one of the two problems we've been discussing and your gun would come back fixed, too.
Wynn

When you're preparing photos for uploading, jpegs (picture.jpg) should be under 97.7kilobytes. Generally, 640x480 is about as high a resolution that you can use for that and sometimes you might have to crop that to get below the max file size. I think when you use the Attachment Manager, after choosing Advanced mode, choose Browse and find your picture, then click on it, click save and then choose upload on the manager window... it takes a bit of time. If you don't resize it first, it will take a long time for it to reduce the picture.
You can preview the post, but use the back button to leave the picture. If you hit the upper right close button, you have to start over.
Once you post the msg and picture, you can see the photo and you can edit the post to add more or change something.
If you want to keep the original photo, open it with Microsoft Fax and Picture Viewer. Upper left under File choose Save As and give it a filename. Then Edit the new file you just saved. Start with resize and choose 640x480, then okay, then save that. Now roll the mouse over the new photo and see the pop for file size. If it's over 97.7 KB, edit and use the Crop feature to get rid of extra space around the part of the picture you want to show. then choose Ok and then save that. The picture won't change for real until you save it. Then you can check the size with the mouse, if okay, then go to the reply and use the Attachment Manager to find the file and upload it.

For posting pix here, I set my camera to 640 by 480 resolution and then all I might have to do is crop a bit. Most of the time the photo is small enough, size-wise. Don't forget to go back to higher resolution for regular photos.
Wynn

[wyntrout]

I missed the pix during my long-winded post. How about some pix of the gun with the slide locked back and a full magazine locked into position. Pix from the top and showing the magazine alignment and the base of the cartridge and the "stripper" area.
Have you tried watching what happens as you insert the full magazine? Does the cartridge get pushed down on one end or the other?
Wynn

[Bawanna]

Crap, I guess I don't know how to post a picture either. I read thru half those directions and had to reach for the advil. Crop, size, kilobytes, resolution. I putting you on the other side with the rocket scientist. I bet you did your own avatar too huh?
Dang your smart.

[Bawanna]

Kramm, do do what Mr. Wyn said though. Would like to see the bottom of the slide looking at the breach face, maybe the frame from the top with a loaded magazine in place, no slide. That beveled stripper could still be the issue. You got some pics on so my simplistic approach must work at least a little bit.

[wyntrout]

Kramm is posting a higher resolution than I thought was possible. the darn instructions list the max size of a .jpg file as 97.7KB, but his pictures are bigger. I guess he just uploaded the regular sized ones and the Attachment Manager loads it and compresses it a little bit. Anyhow, it works, what ever he's doing.:D

I would just like to see how the magazine sits after insertion or even just before topping out and then fully inserted to see if the cartridge is getting shoved down somehow.
Wynn

[Bawanna]

Just noticed your from Missouri, birthplace of bawanna. How I ended up out here is a huge question, drug as a kid against my will mostly. What part you in?

[Bawanna]

I'm thinking he's got the same exact issue you had. That stripper is squared off and just hanging onto that top cartridge and it has no place to go. When the slide slams shut it's not lined up so gets pushed down in the back and up in the front. The old crunch instead of click or whatever you called it. It's bed time for workers on the West coast but I'm hanging a bit to see if theres another post from Kramm. What are you doing up this late anyhow Mr. Wyn? Gotta be like 2 am in FL.

[Bawanna]

Guess not, he logged off. I'm down for the night. Good night Jim Bob, good night Mary Ellen, Good night Grandpa, good night John boy.

[wyntrout]

It's only 1:32 AM.
I usually stay up late... maybe nap a bit in my TV chair. I sleep a little later, too.:D

[kramm]

I didn't mean to log off. I was taking pic. with full mag. in. I tried to down load into puter but it wouldn't let me for some reason. I'm about 50mi. n.w. from st. louis.
With a full mag. in I have about a mil. clearence. The stripper has a little bevel to it not much. It will fire the first round it's the next one that does this hang up thing. I clear the chamber and fill the mag again and it eill fire, then hang. I out 20 -5round mags. through it today and only 5 ran with out an issue.

[kramm]

I'll take more pics. after I get and try to get them in. I'll get some of the bottom of the slide.
The
attachment manager said my pics. were 88.9 kb. when they were up-loading.

[wyntrout]

How many mags did you try... different mags?

Bawanna' called it a night. My son lives in St. Louis. My Daughter in S. Illinois.
We get together for Thanksgiving almost every year in Marion, IL. That state sucks for gun laws. It's the only one I have to visit and can't CCW there.

It does sound like there's something going on with your magazines, but I wonder if the slide is pushing down on the cartridges and pushing them from mid-cartridge to jam them up like that. Have you tried taking the slide off and reinserting the slide stop to see if a bullet hits the slide stop when you insert the magazine?

The notch and the gap issues seem so easy once you figure that out, but yours isn't so easy to see, I guess.
Wynn:confused:

[gb6491]

Hello all,
I'm a new member to the site.
I bought a pm 4544n on Feb. 4-10. My first outing to the range was great. I put 150 rounds through it with no problems. It was cold and my fingers were gettingnumb, so I called it a day.
My next trip to the range wastuesday last week. Since I had taken wwb ammo on my first trip I decided to take some Fed.&Rem. this trip. All were 230gr. fmj.
This trip was not so good. The first issue was that it did not pick-up the first round from the magazine. I had the slide locked open and used the slide release. The second issue was that the slide relaes lever would move outward and lock the slide open after a couple of rounds were fired. The third issue I had was the round would jam into the top of the barrel.
I took it home and cleaned it, I also checked the mag. springs as I had taken them apart and cleaned them after my first trip to the range.
I found some flashing around the hole for the slide release and removed that. All else looked OK to me. Took it back to the range the next day. The mag. release didn't lock the slide open when fired. But the other two issues remained.
I E-Mailed Kahr, their reply was to read the owners manuel. Ihad already read it.
It is on it's was back to them.
Hi Kramm,
I went and read the background on your problem. Something that struck me was that your first session was without problem, but your second was problematic; also that you had taken the magazines apart between sessions. I'd like to suggest that you check the orientation of the springs in your magazine in regards to the follower..
Proper orientation is pictured below on the right:
http://i42.tinypic.com/wtemtk.jpg
I just now purposely installed the spring as pictured on the left and my first attempt to hand feed from that magazine resulted in a failure pretty much as pictured in your earlier post tonight (for reference the same magazine with a properly oriented spring hand fed the same rounds without incident).
It might be worth a quick look.
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

That would make a big difference. I have a 9mm 7-round extended grip that will shoot 4 rounds and the last three are kind of nosed down a bit and don't feed.
I've adjusted the magazine twice and it still does the same thing. I've lightly sanded the follower, especially the front, and bent that last coil end piece up just a bit more to exaggerate the lift on the front, but no help.
I've put it aside for now. I ought to try using that in the K9 with a K9 base plate and see if the body and follower work in the K9 and maybe the reverse for the PM9. Another test. I'm also thinking about some more springs from Wolf -- 5% stronger.
Wynn

[Bawanna]

Hi Kramm,
I went and read the background on your problem. Something that struck me was that your first session was without problem, but your second was problematic; also that you had taken the magazines apart between sessions. I'd like to suggest that you check the orientation of the springs in your magazine in regards to the follower..
Proper orientation is pictured below on the right:
http://i42.tinypic.com/wtemtk.jpg
I just now purposely installed the spring as pictured on the left and my first attempt to hand feed from that magazine resulted in a failure pretty much as pictured in your earlier post tonight (for reference the same magazine with a properly oriented spring hand fed the same rounds without incident).
It might be worth a quick look.
Regards,
Greg

I tried to find that original post too, guess I didn't go back far enough. I think you are definitely onto something here. Makes perfect sense for the scenario. I think people tear apart magazines all to frequently in my simple minded opinion. Nothing wrong with that an nothing bad on Kramms part but I'm a firm believer in if it works don't mess with it.
Kramm, I spent my formative years in Bowling Green, I still have lots of aunts, uncles, cousins and such over most of the state. I should be there now.

[PigButtons]

I'm not for certain but I've never seen slide scuffing as far back on the top of the barrel as on kramm's. Usually the slide scuffing stops about half way back, at least on my PM9 and other semi-autos that I own. The reason is, I believe, that the barrel should be separating from the slide because of the slide lock pin hole acting on the slide lock pin as it travels to the rear.

Look at picture 2 of 4 on kramms post and with the slide almost half way back the barrel is still in contact with the inside of the slide. This should not be. Below is a pic of my PM9 and you can see the slide scuffs stops in the first half inch. I think kramm's slide is not finished on the inside, or the barrel is improperly sized, or the slide stop hole in the barrel is not machined properly.

[Bawanna]

I'm not for certain but I've never seen slide scuffing as far back on the top of the barrel as on kramm's. Usually the slide scuffing stops about half way back, at least on my PM9 and other semi-autos that I own. The reason is, I believe, that the barrel should be separating from the slide because of the slide lock pin hole acting on the slide lock pin as it travels to the rear.

Look at picture 2 of 4 on kramms post and with the slide almost half way back the barrel is still in contact with the inside of the slide. This should not be. Below is a pic of my PM9 and you can see the slide scuffs stops in the first half inch. I think kramm's slide is not finished on the inside, or the barrel is improperly sized, or the slide stop hole in the barrel is not machined properly.

I think unlocked at that point with a cartridge standing up in the mag wouldn't that be pushing the barrel up? Should be just rattling around at that point. From the wear it looks like it happened alot though so you could be correct. I thought GB6491 really hit when he noted that the first trip out it worked fine, then after cleaning it didn't work good at all. Have to wait and see what Kramm has to show us on those mags I guess.

[kramm]

I took pics. but for some reason I can't get them to download into the puter. I did do a little looking today. I was remembering all of the trouble with mags. dropping out that were posted. Got me to thinking , so I locked the slide back took the mag.out and looked at the mag. catch. Mine protrudes into the mag. well about 3/16". I then took a mag. apart and slipped the tube in, then I ran the spring in. Guess what, the spring would catch on the on the mag. catch as it even protrudes into the mag. tube about a 1/16". Next I slipped a round into the tuto see if it would youch it. it didn't. I'm thinking that maybe some of what is happening. The spring catching on the mag. release causing improper tension. I live in Troy just down the road from Bowling Green. Yeah I don't go into Ill. much just because of their laws, if i do I unload and lock every thing up in the trunk. Thats what the cop that I took my ccw class from told me to do.

[kramm]

Bawanna,tried to put a spring in reversed and it is kinda tough to do I'm sure I have mine. It would be the set up on the right side of your pic.

[wyntrout]

That barrel hood scuffing looks like the result of the cartridge jamming the barrel up higher as the slide moves back forward and then scuffing. Look at picture #1.
Wynn

[Bawanna]

I took pics. but for some reason I can't get them to download into the puter. I did do a little looking today. I was remembering all of the trouble with mags. dropping out that were posted. Got me to thinking , so I locked the slide back took the mag.out and looked at the mag. catch. Mine protrudes into the mag. well about 3/16". I then took a mag. apart and slipped the tube in, then I ran the spring in. Guess what, the spring would catch on the on the mag. catch as it even protrudes into the mag. tube about a 1/16". Next I slipped a round into the tuto see if it would youch it. it didn't. I'm thinking that maybe some of what is happening. The spring catching on the mag. release causing improper tension. I live in Troy just down the road from Bowling Green. Yeah I don't go into Ill. much just because of their laws, if i do I unload and lock every thing up in the trunk. Thats what the cop that I took my ccw class from told me to do.

Troy? Right in my old neighborhood. Still got lots of people around there. Hope GB6491 is around. That mag release is perplexing to me. When the mag is loaded the spring is all compressed, so not touching the release button, and you say it's not touching cartridges. So what happens when we insert a empty mag. If it's touching the spring it should take pressure off the follower a bit as it locks in but maybe not much. Hmm. I can't help but think about what GB6491 said. It shot ok first trip now it doesn't. What changed. Gotta go back and read the patients symptoms again.

[kramm]

Pigbuttons,I noticed that too. Seems like my little pistol needs some fine tuning. What really has me confused is that it worked so well for the first 150 rounds. Not a hick-up any where. All I did was clean it. Next time out one thing after another.

[Bawanna]

My K40 went back after about that many rounds 150 or so. It was feeding and all but just wouldn't quite go into battery. I had to smack the back of the slide and then itwas fine. It was close enough it would even fire but not good situation. Kahr told me the barrel was peening. I gave up my black slide for a new stainless slide to save time and a new barrel and it's been trouble free since. But it wasn't doing all the jamming stuff yours seems to be doing.

[kramm]

With a round under pressure from the spring it might be possible for it to get pinched into the catch. This is with a full mag. what do you think?

[kramm]

Any way it's going back. I called Kahr this afternoon. Talked to Shawn. It will be picked up tomorrow.

[gb6491]

Hi Kramm,
I'm sure they will get it running right for you.

Not a hick-up any where. All I did was clean it. Next time out one thing after another. I'm still curious (as you are) about why all the problems the second time out.
Trying to eliminate variables and as the pistol has already been back to Kahr, I should have asked this before asking about the magazine springs: is it possible you have some out of spec ammo? You did mention you were running different ammo from one session to another.
Regards,
Greg

[a.squibload]

You guys are a valuable resource, but what the heck, one day and 397 posts???
You are making me want a 45 version. The 40s had a bad rep for a while as I recall,
mine is a later model so maybe I lucked out.
One reason I was always a revolver guy is the level of firearms expertise and
magic skills needed to make some autoloaders perform. Hope you find the answer soon.
(Try setting flame to powder in a rusty can while chanting and rattling bones under
full moon, usually helps.)

Wyn: get stitches, apply alcohol to kill germs, systemically if necessary.

Baw: it's "hypothesis", after Hypotheseus, Greek god of guessing, I guess.

I had new magazine trouble with PM40, only one of them caused a problem and
I suspect it was used. Kahr replaced, no problem. Other one was simple, baseplate
was not installed properly, was too far forward with a gap at the back, looked funny.
I was gonna take one of 'em apart anyway, right? Fine now. Will make note of spring
position next time in case it applies.

PS: tongue: how did you get a pic of my girlfreind???

[kramm]

Hi GB6491 & A.squibload,

I guess ammo could be out of specks, though I don't think so. I have bee using store bought ammo. Winchester White Box,Federal & Remington. All have been 230 gr. FMJ. I have some Hydra shock that I could run through it but I hate to just shoot them up. My G36 has a mag. full and I did shoot 5 rounds through the Kahr on the first outing with it. No problem there. I'll tell ya if I didn't have 4 other auto's and have field stripped them, mags also, and put back together and have them take off just fine I would think I messed something up. I just don't understand.
Maybe A.Squibload has the answer,Voodoo.

[Bawanna]

You guys are a valuable resource, but what the heck, one day and 397 posts???
You are making me want a 45 version. The 40s had a bad rep for a while as I recall,
mine is a later model so maybe I lucked out.
One reason I was always a revolver guy is the level of firearms expertise and
magic skills needed to make some autoloaders perform. Hope you find the answer soon.
(Try setting flame to powder in a rusty can while chanting and rattling bones under
full moon, usually helps.)

Wyn: get stitches, apply alcohol to kill germs, systemically if necessary.

Baw: it's "hypothesis", after Hypotheseus, Greek god of guessing, I guess.

I had new magazine trouble with PM40, only one of them caused a problem and
I suspect it was used. Kahr replaced, no problem. Other one was simple, baseplate
was not installed properly, was too far forward with a gap at the back, looked funny.
I was gonna take one of 'em apart anyway, right? Fine now. Will make note of spring
position next time in case it applies.

PS: tongue: how did you get a pic of my girlfreind???


I'm trying to figure out if this is praise or we just got slammed. Only the tongue knows for sure.

[Bawanna]

Any way it's going back. I called Kahr this afternoon. Talked to Shawn. It will be picked up tomorrow.

Kramm, please please please let us know what you find out when your gun gets back. We seek answers and benefit in our own future gun purchases. Don't run off and leave us hanging. I'm confident that Kahr will fix it up, we just gotta know how.

[getsome]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

[Vinikahr]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

OK you ask for it! Why so much round-around to get to the point? Much what you have indicated is not new information( nothing to discover here) :boink:, much of the issues with Kahr guns are user issues not the gun, people fail to read the manual, clean and lube it. Unless issues with the guns come beyond certain percentages, I do not see anything changing. You will only hear from the few who had issues, that in one way or another change their mind after buying the gun. :eek:

[Bawanna]

Well fellas this post might stir up a chit storm but here goes....I went to two gun shops yesterday looking for .380 for my LCP... The first one didn't have anything but while there I wanted to look at a PM45....The owner said he quit selling Kahrs because of all the problems and returned guns he had to deal with....Went to my regular store and they had some Horniday CD which I did pick up a box of 20 for $32.99....I asked if he had any Kahr pistols...All he had was a CW9 which was used and traded in for something else...He said he doesn't stock Kahr products anymore unless someone wants to special order one..I asked why and he said the same thing as the other store owner, The guns seem to be hit or miss with operation and the price is out of line with other pistols he can sell and make a profit on without them coming back with issues....If someone asked me today about a Kahr pistol, I'm not sure I would recommend one over a Glock or M&P due to all the issues you guys are having....Now I'm not slamming Kahr cause I really like my CW40 but after having two different gun shop owners say what they did made me wonder if I made a good choice...When Toyota started having concerns with some of their cars they did the right thing, stop production, sales and issue a recall to fix the engineering problem....I hope someone at Kahr reads this forum because I know lots of other potential future customers interested in a Kahr product do and If I were in charge of marketing at Kahr Arms I wouldn't hesitate to recall the PM45 pistols and make sure they are correct and operate without failure...While a 3000 lb runaway Toyota is a dangerous thing so is a pistol that won't shoot or jams just when needed most....Ok go ahead and blast me if you want to, I'm old and thick skinned but this is how I feel and I'm really sorry so many of you are having problems with your guns... What do you think?.....Thanks for listening.....

We're suppose to blast ya cause your old and thick. Not me. I agree with ya. Vinikahr is also correct in my shortsighted opinion but there seems to be alot of QC issues that are slipping thru. As noted alot of shooter error and we usually only hear the bad. I have little faith in what gun shop owners say, some are very knowledgable, and they obivously know if they are dealing with alot of return issues etc but some speak with forked tongue. I'd lean more towards Vinikahr but I've sent mine back too. I've never sent any other gun back for their issue. I've sent 1 or 2 that were things I'd messed up. (never try PO Ackerly triplex loads in a Ruger 44). Guess we need to improve both from a user standpoint but Kahr needs to sort out some issues as well. Never roll over cause your old and thick, took a long time to get here, hold your head up.

[getsome]

I know that Kahrs like any small pistol are more difficult to shoot and more prone to problems due to the shooter and small tolerances in design but in this case it seems thar the PM45 platform may have been pushed into mass production before all the bugs were worked out...Wyn's gun for example came back as barrel out of spec, not acceptable with CNC manufacturing....Thats an engineering, design and quality control issue and it seems to me that Kahr is doing their product proto type testing using their customers rather than to get it right in house before bringing the product to market.....The issues seem to be mainly with the new PM45 which stands to be their biggest seller cause everybody wants a .45 so why not make it the flagship product and just take the time to get it right without all the fuss....Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kahr at all, I love my CW40 and would buy another Kahr especially a PM45 but not until they figure it out...I hope that Kahr Arms stays in business for many years to come and make all kinds of new innovative pistols but it's not good business to do your product engineering on the fly, just figure out what the problems are and if necessary recall the things to correct what should have been caught before leaving Worchester....

[Vinikahr]

I know that Kahrs like any small pistol are more difficult to shoot and more prone to problems due to the shooter and small tolerances in design but in this case it seems thar the PM45 platform may have been pushed into mass production before all the bugs were worked out...Wyn's gun for example came back as barrel out of spec, not acceptable with CNC manufacturing....Thats an engineering, design and quality control issue and it seems to me that Kahr is doing their product proto type testing using their customers rather than to get it right in house before bringing the product to market.....The issues seem to be mainly with the new PM45 which stands to be their biggest seller cause everybody wants a .45 so why not make it the flagship product and just take the time to get it right without all the fuss....Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Kahr at all, I love my CW40 and would buy another Kahr especially a PM45 but not until they figure it out...I hope that Kahr Arms stays in business for many years to come and make all kinds of new innovative pistols but it's not good business to do your product engineering on the fly, just figure out what the problems are and if necessary recall the things to correct what should have been caught before leaving Worchester....

It is cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, just remember that product do not get tested in full, this could hijack the cost of operations (I am still dreaming of a PM 45 GAP). Anyway, we the buyers and users tend to do more testing that the manufacturer. I would say the majority of people won't go that far as most of us in here do. :eek::7:

[Bawanna]

+1 High Five. Well said. Wish they'd hurry up, I want a PM45 pretty bad.

[Bawanna]

It is cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, just remember that product do not get tested in full, this could hijack the cost of operations (I am still dreaming of a PM 45 GAP). Anyway, we the buyers and users tend to do more testing that the manufacturer. I would say the majority of people won't go that far as most of us in here do. :eek::7:

I wouldn't say it's cheaper to deal with the product after it has been sold, but is does create cash flow for the manufacture. Certainly the shipping cost alone for all the returned bad ones can't be a good thing. I also have to wonder about the guys with way more money than me who buy one, it doesn't run for whatever reason and they just day junk and throw it in a drawer and go for something else. Like you say the average guy isn't into these things the way some of us are.
I think your on the right track with the 45 GAP, I think the jury is still out on weather that round will survive. I think it should but if the gun makers don't make enough guns, the ammo makers won't make ammo and it's dinosaur status like so many good rounds before it. Hope it survives.

[wyntrout]

My barrel wasn't out of spec'. I think that it is a design flaw, since the PM9 has a big gap so that the stripper would be behind the cartridge instead on ON IT. The PM45 is not the only one with that particular problem. There was at least one guy who beveled the stripper on his CW45, I believe, to fix the same problem.
As far as I know, Kahr fixed mine and it worked well on the last range trip. If it continues to do that I'm a happy shooter. It didn't cost me any extra and that was a big thing. This is something I've been wanting since my first Kahr -- my K9 -- for them to make a compact .45ACP. When Kahr announced the P45 or whichever was first, that became my dream gun, but finances were tight up until this year. And by now, my "dream" had shifted to the PM45 with NS and then the DLC model of that. I don't see how I could be any happier with a 45, but my next "dream" would be a K4544N DLC -- all steel and black! I hope they make one, and soon... I ain't getting any younger.:D

Based on all of the problems we've seen, I would hope that Kahr would add a few more points for checking during QC... yeah, if they have that, other than firing it.:D
For one thing, they could take one of the magazines that is packaged with the gun, filled with ammo, and watch from the top as it is inserted into the pistol, whether or not the cartridge is in front or UNDER the stripper. Then chamber a round and shoot the whole magazine. That would test several things and maybe we wouldn't be doing so much QC for them and it would certainly be cheaper than shipping the gun back and replacing parts and spending more time completing the MANUFACTURING PROCESS!

Now I'm trying to figure what ammo to get based on performance, availability, and cost. I'm just toying with the thought of Magnaporting the PM45 for faster followup shots... but not seriously.:rolleyes:
I have always stuck with 230-grain standard rounds -- FMJ or JHP. I was loading Federal 230-gr Hydra-Shok for a long time and when that got hard to get for a while, I switched to Remington 230-gr Golden Sabers. Now I need more defense ammo and am trying to find a "cost efficient, effective," and available round for defensive use.:)

[getsome]

I'm gonna shut up now, I just wanted to poke the hornet's nest to see what came out, HA HA HA HA HA...Look at all those p!ssed off bees HA HA H .....ow, ow, OW, OW OOOOOOW OOOOOOOOOW..... MOMMY!!! oh crap that hurts, I gotta go!!!!....:19:

[tomwalshco]

Getting 500hp out of a 7L engine is a piece of cake. Getting 500hp out of a 3L engine is a whole new ballgame. At least I give Kahr credit for the effort. They're going where almost no one has gone before... Glock hasn't done it. Big payload out of a little skinny gun. They'll keep trying. No time to be non-responsive in the CS department.

As far as customer testing of new products in the marketplace - hell, Taurus has been doing it for years. And still does. Kel-Tec, too. Price? Made in USA usually equates to 2X on price for a quality piece. Given Kahr's lineage, they all could be built in Korea, but they're not.

Gun shop types - Everything under their glass is always the best, the rest sucks. They could easily have said, "We don't sell enough guns to get good pricing, and we can't get any Kahrs anyway, so we just tell everyone Kahr quality is a crapshoot... Take a look at these XDs. Gotta love that Croation quality."

I think a total re-engineer of the PM45 magazine (or follower) might get the job done. They should send 20 PM45s to MecGar and tell them to "make it work". Taurus is having the same mag issues with their PT145.

[Bawanna]

I'm gonna shut up now, I just wanted to poke the hornet's nest to see what came out, HA HA HA HA HA...Look at all those p!ssed off bees HA HA H .....ow, ow, OW, OW OOOOOOW OWWWWWW crap that hurts, I gotta go!!!!....:19:

I don't think you created much of a stir myself. You spoke the truth. Might be a couple bumbles flying around waiting to hurt somebody but so far I'm sting free.

[PigButtons]

It just now dawned on me that these guns come from a town where nobody was taught phonics. If you can't read, how can you expect to build hi-tec guns?

[kramm]

I'll let you know what happens with my pm45. I agree with the others that Kahr has seemed to have rushed into production of this particular handgun and missed a few bugs. From what I understand the pm9 is a really fine gun. Thats the one I wanted to get in the first place. I let my wife talk me into the 45. I already have two 9mm, and she said get the 45. Of course I didn't argue.

[jbaker]

man reading all this bad about the pm45 ,i felt really lucky that the one i traded worked flawlessly, so i went and got it back yesterday bc the guy i traded it too didn't like it bc it kept jamming on him, it never jammed for me so i traded back, put another 50 rounds through it yesterday of mixed ammo, all 230gn, but it was umc jhp, wwb jhp, and pmc fmj, and guess what not a single prob.. now it jammed for him at least 1x per mag he said, it jammed 1x for the range owner out of 6 shots, (5th jammed), and never for me. that leads me to assume ALOT of probs with this gun are shooter error,notice i said ALOT , NOT ALL. im sure there is actual probs, like the notch which i did my self bc i have no waranty. i think it must have helped bc the previous owner had alot of probs with 230gn ammo ,and ive had none, all in all its a great little gun, but 45 is still to expensive to shoot, im kinda thinking about a trading it for a pm9 or SORRY a g26 :)

[jocko]

man reading all this bad about the pm45 ,i felt really lucky that the one i traded worked flawlessly, so i went and got it back yesterday bc the guy i traded it too didn't like it bc it kept jamming on him, it never jammed for me so i traded back, put another 50 rounds through it yesterday of mixed ammo, all 230gn, but it was umc jhp, wwb jhp, and pmc fmj, and guess what not a single prob.. now it jammed for him at least 1x per mag he said, it jammed 1x for the range owner out of 6 shots, (5th jammed), and never for me. that leads me to assume ALOT of probs with this gun are shooter error,notice i said ALOT , NOT ALL. im sure there is actual probs, like the notch which i did my self bc i have no waranty. i think it must have helped bc the previous owner had alot of probs with 230gn ammo ,and ive had none, all in all its a great little gun, but 45 is still to expensive to shoot, im kinda thinking about a trading it for a pm9 or SORRY a g26 :)

RIGHT. You proved that yourself on ur 45. It worked for u and not the other fella. course we all know ITS THE GUNS FAULT. Kahr has told me before that over 50% of all guns returned are PERFECT. U can't fix what ain't broken. I do think the PM45 has gotten a bad rap out of all of this.Sure some are not right, most IMO are right, but the shooter ain't. Not alibing for either the gun or shooter, just the facts "dano":7:

I had a long time back a kt 32, It never screwed up for me, but my wife could not shoot it, jammed all the time on her. she wanted no part of it, but it was a gun that was defnitely not right for her either.

I would have no doubts in saying that the average or even above average woman would have a hell of a time shooting a PM40 without issues, and we all know why.. about ayear ago, I had a gal come to my place with her new sig 40 cal she traded a shotgun for. It was totally new. She wanted me to take her out and teach her properly.

She could not make that excellent high quality sig work. It just jammed like hell on her. I had no issues. I had my g19 with me and let her shoot it, and she never had one issue, and actually shot it very good. She wanted to trade me even up right there. Now that sig was about twice the price of the G19 but I just did not want a 40 caliber gun of any make. My point as u well know is that not all guns work for all people the way they are designed...

[jbaker]

uh-o:)

[jbaker]

im 5'11" 240 my girlfriend is 5'8" 118 and she shoots great, she didn't like my g27 but she shot it with no prob,im trying to get her to shoot the pm45 ,ill let you know if i succed,and the results ,dont hold your breath though:)

[jocko]

im 5'11" 240 my girlfriend is 5'8" 118 and she shoots great, she didn't like my g27 but she shot it with no prob,im trying to get her to shoot the pm45 ,ill let you know if i succed,and the results ,dont hold your breath though:)

u shoulda bought that covert P9 for her and kept the PM45 for yourself. The P9 would have made a jim dandy gun for her.:7:

[jbaker]

u shoulda bought that covert P9 for her and kept the PM45 for yourself. The P9 would have made a jim dandy gun for her.:7:
she didn't like it.:der: she dont carry, just targed shoot she liked the g17 ,19 and xdm

[jocko]

she didn't like it.:der: she dont carry, just targed shoot she liked the g17 ,19 and xdm

favorite for hitting what I aim at is my tuned G19. what a shooter it is..:third:

[gb6491]

...she said get the 45. Of course I didn't argue.
You just have to admire a woman that knows the merits of big bore handguns. Congrats on having such a fine lady as your wife!
BTW, nothing wrong with the G26; I have a G27 (shoot a lot of 9mm in it with a conversion barrel) and it would be one of the last handguns I ever let go of.
Regards,
Greg

[kramm]

Hey all
Got my PM45 back today. Not bad on the turn-around. It was picked up on the 19th. and I got it back today,25th.
The action taken on the repairs were; replaced barrel,extractor,recoil spring, polished parts as needed. I won't get to the range today as it's raining. I hope to go tomorrow.
I'll be sure to watch my grip and make sure I do all I can to not be the problem. I can't say I've been as good as I could be at fireing this pistol.

[wyntrout]

Congrats, kramm! see if you got the "notch" and the gap/beveled stripper.
I hope you're fixed up now. Good shooting!.
Wynn:D

[kramm]

Congrats, kramm! see if you got the "notch" and the gap/beveled stripper.
I hope you're fixed up now. Good shooting!.
Wynn:D


Thanks. It has a notch and a slight bevel on the stripper. Question; what role doe's the notch play?

[Bawanna]

Congrats, kramm! see if you got the "notch" and the gap/beveled stripper.
I hope you're fixed up now. Good shooting!.
Wynn:D


Thanks. It has a notch and a slight bevel on the stripper. Question; what role doe's the notch play?

Perhaps the better question would be what role doesn't the notch play? Apparently some or all of the PM45's got out with out the notch. This caused the recoil spring and guide to basically beat itself into the spot where your notch now is. This of course created many bad things to happen. If the notch is there its all good.

[kramm]

Thanks Bawanna.
I took the pm45 for a short test this morning, 50 rounds of Federal & Remington FMJ. 230 gr. Had 1 issue, at 37 rounds into it, 1 round did not feed. It looked as though it didn't move up in the mag. I pulled the slide back a hair( the slide had locked open) and the round poped up into position. I held the slide and let it return slowly. No problems after that. I'm happy now:D Think I'll call Kahr and thank them.

[Bawanna]

Thanks Bawanna.
I took the pm45 for a short test this morning, 50 rounds of Federal & Remington FMJ. 230 gr. Had 1 issue, at 37 rounds into it, 1 round did not feed. It looked as though it didn't move up in the mag. I pulled the slide back a hair( the slide had locked open) and the round poped up into position. I held the slide and let it return slowly. No problems after that. I'm happy now:D Think I'll call Kahr and thank them.

Glad it's working for ya. Should only get better and better the more you shoot it. I'm sure Kahr would appreciate a little pat on the back. Who doesn't. I got a gold star once, I think it was in 1984 or maybe 87. Wish I could recall what it was for................:der:

[a.squibload]

Similar experience with kinda new PM40, no problems 'til a freind shot it, had 2 FTFs in one
magazine. He does MMA, not wimpy, but he's used to his 1911 and a Smith 9mm.

[wyntrout]

How about the gap? That's one that gives feed problems because the stripper part of the slide is on the cartridge instead of behind it where it can push it up the ramp to the chamber. When I had that problem, I would have to pull the slide all the way to the rear to get the stripper off the top round and behind it. I couldn't chamber from the locked back slide until Kahr beveled to lower leading edge of the stripper. I've had no problems with feeding since then.
I guess I'll start a New New PM45 Range Test since everyone is using my old one here.:D
Wynn

[DKD]

Hey gents,

About them golden Sabres; first Copper gilding metal used in bullets is quite soft. The Golden sabres are not brass. Brass is an alloy metal and harder than a base element like copper. They are using an aluminum alloy that looks like brass in color only. As was stated before they won't hurt anything, as a matter of fact my PM45 loves them 185 grainers....one ragged hole at 7 yards and 1 1/2" group at 15 yards.

[wyntrout]

Bologna or baloney! The jacket is cartridge brass. Aluminum isn't normally found in handgun or rifle ammo... other than the case.:lie:

All of the Golden Sabers are BRASS Jacketed Hollow Points and then there are the BONDED ones:

RemingtonMilitary.com (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/am_mle_hpjbond.htm)

Research isn't hard, but blurting nonsense like that is silly.

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Bologna or baloney! The jacket is cartridge brass. Aluminum isn't normally found in handgun or rifle ammo... other than the case.:lie:

All of the Golden Sabers are BRASS Jacketed Hollow Points and then there are the BONDED ones:

RemingtonMilitary.com (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/am_mle_hpjbond.htm)

Research isn't hard, but blurting nonsense like that is silly.

Wynn:)

Goodness gracious Wyn, I've never seen an outburst like this from you especially to a new guy. You take your meds this morning? Reading your attachment I believe you are correct but lets go just a little easy on the new guy. Hmmmmm. DKD deserves better than this. Now go sit in the corner and watch the alligators in the pond, I'll tell ya when you can come out. We'll call this the Kahrtalk timeout.

[wyntrout]

Gee... it says Brass Jacketed Hollow Points and the information at the Remington Sites says the jackets are made of cartridge brass. I research the stuff I use and TRY not to make dumb statements like that.

The Golden Saber gets its name from the golden color of BRASS:

Golden Saber
Overview:

Dead-serious bullet innovation. A superior bullet for when the stakes are at their highest. Designed for law enforcement and personal defense, the Golden Saber High Performance Jacket successfully combines: match-type accuracy, deep penetration, maximum expansion and near 100% weight retention.
Key Features:

* High-performance jacket (HPJ) handgun ammunition built around revolutionary hollow-point bullet design
* Jacket made entirely of cartridge brass, which releases energy over longer distance while mushrooming
* Spiral nose-cut feature permits mushrooming at lower velocity without sacrificing penetration or terminal performance
* Primer and mouth waterproofing standard
* Cases nickel-plated for reliable feed, function and extraction



Golden Saber HPJ Bonded Ammunition

Golden Saber HPJ Bonded

Golden Saber Cartridge

Golden Saber Bonded is the ultimate extension of our revolutionary Golden Saber HPJ bullet concept. Through an exclusive Remington process, the lead core is hot-bonded to the brass jacket. The result is exceptional weight retention - up to 97% when fire through automobile glass - while maintaining phenomenal terminal performance when shot through heavy clothing or into bare gelatin. And the bonding process does not cause a reduction in accuracy performance - jacket and core concentricity and resulting gyroscopic balance has been maintained to deliver match-grade accuracy.

Unlike competitive bonded handgun bullets, expansion, penetration, weight retention performance when fired through barriers such as wallboard and plywood has actually been improved. The unique design and bonding process also produces a bullet that requires less energy to initiate expansion. At the same time, the jacket stiffness and wall thickness is designed to eliminate over-expansion, thus maximizing penetration. These ultra-high performance characteristics make Golden Saber and Golden Saber Bonded ideal for overall law enforcement applications.

I think Jocko would have been in there if I hadn't said something.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Not questioning your wisdom or Jocko's for that matter. Just a little harsh ya know what I mean Vern? He's shooting ragged holes at 7 yards, might want to practice a tiny bit of polite. Or not.

ok bye.

[Bawanna]

Wyn, 17 to go, better start a thread or something big, hit the 1000 mark on April Fools day. A day that will go down in infamy. Loosen up them fingers and get at it.

Oh, you can come out now, timeout is over. Say your sorry to somebody and we'll move on...............

[wyntrout]

Apologize... huh? Speaking of bucket mouths, you had better oil those wheels, I can hear ya closing on me! There's only the Oracle in front of me and he's almost 500 ahead! he must be out riding his bike to the range to shoot or something. Anyhow, you're about to run over or by JohnH and the only other contender is Vini' back at 707. Then there's a big gap to the next guy, Dietrich at 464. it's amazing how many of us started in September and how many posts we have. I joined the P380 Forum first, and I still have only 40 posts there and there are only 6 guys with more and only two over 100... Jocko the leader at 338 is the only "Senior" and Kraigster414 the Global Moderator 162. at Everyone else is a newbie! It's pretty quiet over there. I might make Senior Member there by the end of this year, IF I get my P380 and start using it. I go over there at least once a day, but there's nothing going on.
Dang! I need to get something going on here. I have piles of piles of stuff to go through and I haven't even done my taxes. I'm sure we'll owe money because of all the "temporary stimulus" money we're going to have to pay back.
Later!
Wynn:D

[wyntrout]

Okay, for my 1,000th post I'll put a link here to #999 about "pre-flighting" your PM45, and some others. http://kahrtalk.com/general-discussion/1757-new-pm45-way.html#post17700
I posted the most common recent problems and some of the pictures of those.

Hey, Bawanna! This is #1,000!
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

Okay, for my 1,000th post I'll put a link here to #999 about "pre-flighting" your PM45, and some others. http://kahrtalk.com/general-discussion/1757-new-pm45-way.html#post17700
I posted the most common recent problems and some of the pictures of those.

Hey, Bawanna! This is #1,000!
Wynn:D

I'm beside myself with pent up emotion here. Never spending any time on forums before this one and no others I feel kind of nieve and unexperienced. To actually witness the 1000 mark? well it takes my breath away.
I intended to make my first attempt at a batch of Mr. Dietrichs Molasses bread tonight (I'll skip the part where I'm suppose to be nekid). I think perhaps it would be fitting if we put some candles (not 1000) on it to commemorate and recognize your achievement, wait! Oh we're ok yesterday was the play nasty tricks day so I have to believe this is real although I'll probably never take delivery of the 6 full automatic rifles I ordered on that other deal.
Congrats Mr. Wyn. Perhaps I'll whittle out a set of K9 handles with a fitting 1000 pins inlaid for your adopted step child K9 that you don't love anymore. Maybe make it feel better in nothing else.

[wyntrout]

Thanks, Bawanna. I searched for you to let you know this, but I didn't want to interrupt that post on the jammed CW40 with a live round in the chamber! Holy Crap! I hope that turns out okay!
I'm real careful when I reinsert my slide lock pins now, making sure they go through the hole thingie on and under the barrel. I also note my retainer spring position for the slide release.

Now, I can go see if I can finish up the pile of newspapers on the card table in the "dining room". I'm saving the comics and Jumbles to read or complete. I started with March 19 a while ago and want to finish up and put the bulk of those in the recycle bin. Then I can start to work on all of the catalogs, flyers, magazines, INCOME TAX, and other stuff lost in the various piles! So bye for now!
Wynn:D