why are Kahrs so expensive?

[JERRY]

ok, spare me the because theyre worth it. i want to know what actually makes them cost more than say a glock which is of similar design? is it simply because its what the market will bear?

i want a PM45 and was going to sell a nice 1911 i have to fund one thinking id have a nice bit of cash left over......but the pm45 price is $700.00 when you factor in taxes and all....

so what is it folks? i know the all stainless steel guns are pricey simply because theyre all stainless steel, but the poly guns are cheaper to make.

im just bitching to get it out of my system because im gun rich but dollar poor right now......maybe in time this will be a fad that i will be over, but for now im becoming a kahraholic....:p

[jocko]

ask kahr ,u just gonna get speculation from us. Glocks are made in Austria to, so more than likely their labor market is far less than ours.I gotta admit glocks are low n price for what u get IMO, but it is what it is... sure nuttin wrong in being akahraholic. I know some guys who are glock aholics, I consider myself a harley alcohic..

[JERRY]

im a glockaholic as well, i own 5 of them in 9mm and 10mm.....but i want a mini glockish type .45acp, the PM45 fits that bill better than the G36 but i just might have to let my PM45 idea go.....

i put my CDE for trades locally on this board figuring id get some bites but nothing....

[chrish]

I think it's a number of things. As jocko said, labor cost is possibly a factor. Not familiar w/ EU labor rates, but gotta be less than here. Some other factors that come to mind:

1. Glock has a bigger market to sell to (law enforcement, some governments, more of the population) which translates to lower cost.

2. Glock has already recouped much of their R&D and tooling costs, the design has remained largely unchanged. They've been around longer while producing more guns to work the kinks out.

3. Miniaturization - not all of the parts, but some, and the space within which they function on a Kahr is tougher to do. They invested alot of time and effort to do that and in all markets (laptops, tvs, etc), going smaller costs more. That may really be part and parcel to my #2, but a little different.

4. More mass production. Not saying it's a bad thing, it is what it is. But I'm guessing Glock, because of #1, is geared up to produce these things on a massive scale. Kahr produces less in the same period of time, cost per unit will be higher. Ford vs Ferrari (and I'm not saying a Glock is a Ford or Ford quality vs Kahr/Ferrari, or vice-versa, just saying mass produced vs not-so-much mass produced).

Just some thoughts. They may all be bunk.

[Bawanna]

im a glockaholic as well, i own 5 of them in 9mm and 10mm.....but i want a mini glockish type .45acp, the PM45 fits that bill better than the G36 but i just might have to let my PM45 idea go.....

i put my CDE for trades locally on this board figuring id get some bites but nothing....

You really limit the market when you require face to face in Auburn Alabama.
Lots of interested folks would be shut out on that alone.

[JERRY]

chrish, i hear what youre saying....but with the problems repeated here with the PM45s im not buying the higher quality mantra.....some of the problems mentioned on this site are ones that should have kept a gun in the factory instead of the sales floor...maybe Kahr hasnt worked the bugs out of their PM45 yet.....

[Longitude Zero]

Kahrs are high quality instruments and can be finicky until properly broken in. It is silly to compare a Kahr to a Glock since the tolerances on a Glock are far, far wider than a Kahr.

That is why Glocks always rattle when shaken and Kahrs rarely do.

[CJB]

The reason they are the price they are, is because the market supports that price. Its what enough people are willing to pay. Thats it. Every product is like that. Get the most you can get for it, what the folks are willing to pay. When the market does not, or no longer support the price point for the feature set, the manufacturer can either - revise the price, revise the feature set, or both. The CM series is an example of "both".

[JohnR]

Same reason 1911s are, I suppose.

[muggsy]

Ever hear of the law of supply and demand? I rest my case.

[WR Monger]

The reason they are the price they are, is because the market supports that price. Its what enough people are willing to pay. Thats it. Every product is like that. Get the most you can get for it, what the folks are willing to pay. When the market does not, or no longer support the price point for the feature set, the manufacturer can either - revise the price, revise the feature set, or both. The CM series is an example of "both".


Exactly, it's called a "price point".

[Tinman507]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLvK3NfYggQf0WFB60ju4xjH7QxUG3e EA0S1b7v0-nM6va01mK&t=1

[chrish]

chrish, i hear what youre saying....but with the problems repeated here with the PM45s im not buying the higher quality mantra.....some of the problems mentioned on this site are ones that should have kept a gun in the factory instead of the sales floor...maybe Kahr hasnt worked the bugs out of their PM45 yet.....

I don't think the PM45, or any Kahr .45 is good guage for Kahr quality. The sweet spot is the 9mm for them. Can't speak to .40, but there don't seem to be many problems w/ them either. Seems to be the .45 models, mostly the PM and the P380 that cause more grief that it's probably worth.

Not sure why that is. I'm not a avid gunsmith and couldn't speak to why they can be so perfect in 9 and 40 and have so much trouble (seemingly so from this forum) with .45.

[bonjorno2]

Made in the states....

[JERRY]

I don't think the PM45, or any Kahr .45 is good guage for Kahr quality. The sweet spot is the 9mm for them. Can't speak to .40, but there don't seem to be many problems w/ them either. Seems to be the .45 models, mostly the PM and the P380 that cause more grief that it's probably worth.

Not sure why that is. I'm not a avid gunsmith and couldn't speak to why they can be so perfect in 9 and 40 and have so much trouble (seemingly so from this forum) with .45.


thats what worries me. ive been bitten by the Kahr bug but dont want to get bitten by Kahr crap.

the Glock 36 is a fine pistol but is no smaller than a Glock 19. id like a really compact .45acp of quality. the P45 is no smaller than the G36 for the most part. the PM45 seemed to fit the bill......but now im having second thoughts about trading my Delta Elite for a PM45 and cash......

[chrish]

thats what worries me. ive been bitten by the Kahr bug but dont want to get bitten by Kahr crap.

the Glock 36 is a fine pistol but is no smaller than a Glock 19. id like a really compact .45acp of quality. the P45 is no smaller than the G36 for the most part. the PM45 seemed to fit the bill......but now im having second thoughts about trading my Delta Elite for a PM45 and cash......

It's tough. I hate to hear folks unhappy w/ a purchase, but you gotta make a call at some point...keep at it our dump it for something else. Your time is valuable and I personally wouldn't not have the patience to have something going back to the factory time and time again. Once or even twice is one thing, but beyond that I've be moving on too. Can't blame you. I too expect things to be perfect out of the box. My Kahrs have been, other than a loose rear sight and my PM9 (no longer have it) initially not dropping mags free when I thought they should...until I came here. I think by and large, Kahrs are good guns. Keep in mind, if there are even 100 P/PM 45 owners here (which I doubt), there are thousands out there. You always see/hear the complaints, but less frequently do you hear 'my guns is perfect'.

Don't know your specific issues, and again, I'm no expert particularly w/ a Kahr 45. There are PLENTY of folks w/ no issues, and I'm only coming at this from what I've seen on this forum...just seems to be more 45 gripes and issues that you see w/ the other calibers.

All in all, I think the cost of a Kahr is a fair price, compared to other stuff out there, nobody does single stack better. Copying is another form of flattery, and there is a reason everybody (but Glock, haha) is jumping on the single stack bandwagon, and it's because of ONE COMPANY imo, Kahr.

[Bawanna]

All perception. If I had to guess I'd say there are more issues with 40's. I've had no issues at all with my PM45. Had a peening issue with my K40 taken care of quickly and efficiently by Kahr years ago.

The early 380's had issues galore.

I wouldn't call any issue with 45's pandemic with Kahrs and I'd order any of them without pause if I was in the market.

Some will accuse me of drinking the kool aid but I prefer Scotch and really don't ride for any brand. I like most all real brands, with a few I wouldn't pick up off a table if they were free. Those that start with a K come to mind.

[ScottieG59]

Price figures in the perception of quality. Supposedly, people think lower prices equals lower quality. There is a break even analysis that helps determine optimal pricing and production.

[chovyman]

First there is a near new pm45 on the sales board for $540 I just bought my 2nd pm45 for $550.
I've had 4 kahrs a pm 380 a cw45 and two pm45's all have functioned great after 200 rounds break in. Since break in no malfunctions! Many new guns need break in including Glocks

Made in America is a lot of the cost but still when looking for a small powerhouse the PM45 is hard to beat. . .? Mat dao back up

Michael

[wagon]

At $350 range, they are pretty damn cheap... CM and CW are good deals.

[O'Dell]

I don't think the PM45, or any Kahr .45 is good guage for Kahr quality. The sweet spot is the 9mm for them. Can't speak to .40, but there don't seem to be many problems w/ them either. Seems to be the .45 models, mostly the PM and the P380 that cause more grief that it's probably worth.

Not sure why that is. I'm not a avid gunsmith and couldn't speak to why they can be so perfect in 9 and 40 and have so much trouble (seemingly so from this forum) with .45.

I'm having a bit of a problem with that and I've read nearly every post on KahrTalk for the last three years. On a personal level, I've had two CW45's and a PM45 with nary a problem, except the PM45 managed to get itself stolen. I just wish they would make an MK45 or at least hurry up the release of the CM45.

[kerby9mm]

In the case of my mk9 it went back to Kahr 4 times. Cocking Cam out of spec when they put in a trigger bar. Problem not fixed back again for new cocking cam which when they put in they broke the trigger pivot pin Back again new pin. Striker assembly broke. Back again fixed. The price of the gun maybe covered shipping costs. Every gun maker has to consider warranty expenses.

[wyntrout]

The company shipping rates are less than half of what we would have to pay. When they gave me their FedEx account number and let me order pickup, I kind of screwed up and set up a FedEx account with Kahr's number and only used it when authorized returns. That worked as long as I changed the to/from properly. I did tell the head of customer service about that. That did allow me to see their cost/rate which was about $28 or so for the next to highest overnight rate. It would really be nice if they would let you pay their rate... they email a shipping label and charge you what they pay.

I know that they didn't make any money on my PM45 "Franken-Boomer". After FOUR returns, if there's an original part, it might be the slide lock. They did send me two of those and I returned them because the replacements weren't BLACK... like my pistol.

It does work pretty well now and I can hold it as loose as I want without FTFs from limp wristing. That part I really like.

Wynn:)

[CJB]

I don't think the PM45, or any Kahr .45 is good guage for Kahr quality.

I've got two of those ...

One had a bad frame - not a 45 cal related issue - but even so, it kept shooting. Kahr quickly replaced the frame.

The other just shoots, and shoots, and shoots, right from the get go.

Both shoot reliably, when fed reliable ammo. If you get range reloads, or some other remanufactured stuff... you'll have a few stoppages. I dont shoot that ammo for its reliability, I shoot it for the trigger practice. I'm also good for a box or two of WWB or UMC ammo, which feeds like butter thru both the PM45's.

[CJB]

Wyntrout...

The shipping rate thing - big shippers get "hundredweight" service, which is hundreds of packages shipped daily. The place I work for gets about 60 percent off the UPS service counter rate, and I ship thru them whenever I can (no guns tho). UPS STORE's charge even more then the customer counter. And, daily pickup customers get an in between rate (lower than customer counter). So there's four rate levels, and there may be more, dunno. And thats just UPS. I'm sure FedEx and the others do the same.

I can ship a guitar, big, heavy, insured for $2000 from Florida to Virginia, for about $18 going thru my employer. That ain't bad!

[Longitude Zero]

or at least hurry up the release of the CM45.

I second the motion.

[Planedude]

I have often wondered why SIGs are so pricey. The market that Kahr sells in is a special niche and their focus there keeps the price up. Low production rates and high specialization will always drive the costs up. I build jet fighters that can cost as much as a more commmon 737 airliner, so I kind of understand that sort of market reailty.
Glocks are very common and play to the widest part of the market. Nothing wrong there, but your price has to reflect your wide entry into the market.
That said, why is it that so many folks will plunk down so much for a nearly as widely marketed SIG SAUER product?
I guess it's like has been said already, they charge what they charge cause they can... I'll pay that for a Kahr. I don't own any SIGs, but my Son does (shrug).

[7shot]

Kahrs are high quality instruments and can be finicky until properly broken in.

Gee, where have I heard that before. This is what they said about Kimber guns. I had so much trouble with my last two that I gave up on them. Now I have a Kaur and am hearing the same thing again. Before I purchased my K9 I never heard of such issues, lucky me I haven't had any issues with mine.

My feelings on the $$ issue is that the steel series guns I can see the price tag. But does polymer really cost the same as steel to Kaur? The guts are the same between steel and polymer, so I don't believe the cost to Kaur can be the same to justify the price tag their asking. I don't know maybe it is a production volume issue. Just seems to me polymer guns should be cheaper to buy.

[JFootin]

My feelings on the $$ issue is that the steel series guns I can see the price tag. But does polymer really cost the same as steel to Kaur? The guts are the same between steel and polymer, so I don't believe the cost to Kaur can be the same to justify the price tag their asking. I don't know maybe it is a production volume issue. Just seems to me polymer guns should be cheaper to buy.

That's why we now have the highly popular CW and CM guns. Kahr wanted to increase their sales and market share, and the market dictated where the prices needed to be to do that. I only wish they would dovetail the front sight. But they had to make the original P and PM guns still seem worth it for those who can easily afford them and want the features that can only be had on those models. Ingenious, really. If they hadn't got that right, the more expensive models' sales might have dropped to near zero. But I think they struck a perfect balance.

BTW, I just heard that the XS Big Dot sights are now available for the CW/CM series guns.

[chrish]

I'm having a bit of a problem with that and I've read nearly every post on KahrTalk for the last three years. On a personal level, I've had two CW45's and a PM45 with nary a problem, except the PM45 managed to get itself stolen. I just wish they would make an MK45 or at least hurry up the release of the CM45.


I've got two of those ...

One had a bad frame - not a 45 cal related issue - but even so, it kept shooting. Kahr quickly replaced the frame.

The other just shoots, and shoots, and shoots, right from the get go.

Both shoot reliably, when fed reliable ammo. If you get range reloads, or some other remanufactured stuff... you'll have a few stoppages. I dont shoot that ammo for its reliability, I shoot it for the trigger practice. I'm also good for a box or two of WWB or UMC ammo, which feeds like butter thru both the PM45's.

Fair enough guys. Not trying to be argumentative, just my take on it. I recently started getting a bug for a Kahr .45 and I too have read just about every post in the last 12 months, but not the last 2-3 years, So your base of info might be larger (and better) than mine.

But in just the last 12 months of information here, there were enough issues reported, some buried in other threads, that it made me give second thought and ultimately decide (for the price) not right now. But I also decided I wasnt' going to spend to stock up on .45 ammo, so why bother w/ a .45 right now anyway.

Again, I think I stated before, couple of people w/ issues, couple of people with perfect runs, fine...but that's just empirical/anecdotal and neither are statisically significant. You only see the gripes and not the positive feedback/comments in the same numbers. I chose to avoid a Kahr .45 because of the uncertainty (in my mind, maybe unfounded) and what I felt were enough gripes to be valid and the desire to not be dealing with Kahr back-n-forth at this point in time.

[O'Dell]

I have often wondered why SIGs are so pricey. The market that Kahr sells in is a special niche and their focus there keeps the price up. Low production rates and high specialization will always drive the costs up. I build jet fighters that can cost as much as a more commmon 737 airliner, so I kind of understand that sort of market reailty.
Glocks are very common and play to the widest part of the market. Nothing wrong there, but your price has to reflect your wide entry into the market.
That said, why is it that so many folks will plunk down so much for a nearly as widely marketed SIG SAUER product?
I guess it's like has been said already, they charge what they charge cause they can... I'll pay that for a Kahr. I don't own any SIGs, but my Son does (shrug).

SIG's are more expensive partly because most of their pistols are all metal. Polymer frames are cheaper to manufacture. I have three SIG's, all with aluminum frames. That doesn't explain though why my polymer framed HK's are so expensive. Maybe the same reason that Mercedes, BMW's, and Audi's are.

[JFootin]

SIG's are more expensive partly because most of their pistols are all metal. Polymer frames are cheaper to manufacture. I have three SIG's, all with aluminum frames. That doesn't explain though why my polymer framed HK's are so expensive. Maybe the same reason that Mercedes, BMW's, and Audi's are.

You nailed it. Barth has been whetting my appetite for an HK! :rolleyes:

[QuercusMax]

Glocks are made in Austria to, so more than likely their labor market is far less than ours.

Labor cost in western Europe is every bit as high, or higher, than in the USA, so that is not a factor.

Glocks are the Toyota of guns - made in large quantities, to reasonably high quality standards, designed to appeal to large masses of people. Other manufacturers, Sig Sauer, HK, and Kahr among them, position themselves (or at least some of their products) to be more up-market, and price accordingly.

There are a lot of interesting marketing studies that show that for certain products, increasing the price actually increases their desirability - without any regard for actual manufacturing cost.

[CJB]

I reiterate, and to put more clearly...

What is costs to make something has nothing to do with what the sales price will be.

Marketing sets the price. Manufacturing is there to make the item, to the spec of marketing, without sacrificing the feature set, as inexpensively as possible, thus maximizing profits.

So the old "it costs more to manufacture" is totally hogwash, bunk, BS. Total BS. Its there to appease the unwitting masses. Take any course in manufacturing economics, and you'll quickly see the true picture.

Price to the consumer is based on what the market (the consumers) will support with their dollars. The rest is worked backwards into the shop floor.... They (marketing) want what? Holy crap can we acutally make that? Yah we can, but it will mean we have to gear up to make umpty trillion of them. Thats ok, marketing says they can sell that many, and then some... ok lets do it. And they continually, during production life, find ways of making it for less and less money.

This is not new economics... jeeze Henry Ford had a clear picture of how this works, and before him, others.

The man in charge of it all, has a title. He is called the "product manager". He correlates the marketing input with manufacturing. He is the point man, the man who makes the profit dollars. If you can stand the heat, and have a good product and market, being a product manager is a very lucrative profession.

[JERRY]

im no longer in a financial position to buy any gun i want like before when i bought all steel Kahrs......in fact my only Kahr now is a used PM9.

if i sell a high end gun i can buy a Kahr or if i can trade for a used one.....but i dont want an econo kahr, i havent drank that much kool-aid yet....LOL.

[chrish]

The econo Kahr's are not 'econo'. They are just as good, they just don't spend as much time being prettied up and that's even subjective if you ask me. The actual differences that one MIGHT consider a quality downgrade are questionably effective anyway (polygonal barrel, take-down pin). Beyond those two iffy-benefit things, they are 100% cosmetic differences.

[jocko]

im no longer in a financial position to buy any gun i want like before when i bought all steel Kahrs......in fact my only Kahr now is a used PM9.

if i sell a high end gun i can buy a Kahr or if i can trade for a used one.....but i dont want an econo kahr, i havent drank that much kool-aid yet....LOL.

PM9, call the cm9 what ever u want, it will fire along side of my cm9 just as long. Had kahr made the cm9 back when I bought my PM9, I would have bought it, no doubt in my mind and my signature line would still be saying over 32K rounds.. No doubt we have had less bugs in the cm9 from intorduction than the PM9, that is for sure, but I credit the success of the cm9 due to the teething aspects of the PM9. Once kahr got the PM9 right, just made sense to make a lower priced model less engraving, , extra butt ugly magazine, different sight set up, standard rifling. Nothing there that should really upset quality.

[LorenzoB]

....What is costs to make something has nothing to do with what the sales price will be.....

I am a manufacturer and I know that in a very competitive market, this is not always the case. If the price the market will bear is low because of competitors' prices, then manufacturing plays a big roll in setting the price because of set minimum profit margins. A $20 difference in manufacturing costs could translate to $80 after middle markups.

You are right, marketing ultimately sets the price, especially when there is room for margins, but manufacturing plays a bigger roll when that room for margins is small.

Kahr does not benefit as much from economies of scale like some of the larger manufacturers. I think they could charge more in the past when they were the only ones filling the niche, but now competition is heating up and they addressed that with selling less expensive models, but I am sure margins are getting slimmer as more people are expecting to pay less for a good gun.

[fitpro]

I own two Kahr pistols, the CW9 and the CM9. I consider both to be great values. I know they are part of the Kahr "budget" line but for the quality of each pistol I would expect to pay 50% more.

I also own two Glock 19s. They are great weapons. I believe they are priced closer to their actual value, which is fair. I don't own any "safe queens" but looking at the price of some 1911s at +/- $3,000 is when I would start questioning why something has such a high price tag. As long as my weapon is accurate and goes bang every time, I'm happy. Kahr and Glock both exceed that standard.

[jocko]

don't hold ur breath if u think kahr is gonna drop their prices. dealer margins might get less but that has nadda to do with what kahr charges distributors.. Juyst sayinb

[JFootin]

The econo Kahr's are not 'econo'. They are just as good, they just don't spend as much time being prettied up and that's even subjective if you ask me. The actual differences that one MIGHT consider a quality downgrade are questionably effective anyway (polygonal barrel, take-down pin). Beyond those two iffy-benefit things, they are 100% cosmetic differences.

The pinned plastic front sight is not just cosmetic. It is the one difference that comes closest to the definition of "cheap", and I wish Kahr would put dovetailed metal front sights on them. Mine popped off my CM9 and got lost while I was shooting to qualify for my CC permit. I bought a Dawson Precision fiber optic front sight to replace it.

[jocko]

glocks have pinned front sights. If they are installed correctly, they are OK. Dovetail has its drawbacks to.

[chrish]

The pinned plastic front sight is not just cosmetic.

Point taken, forgot about the sights.


glocks have pinned front sights. If they are installed correctly, they are OK. Dovetail has its drawbacks to.

Well there you go. If Glock does it, it must be the right thing to do.

Sorry, that was just asking for that response :D

[jocko]

naw thats OK, I should not have used glocks but they are one who have sold literally millions with pinned sights and they seem to be accepted (by most). they certainly are more economic and funtional than the cost of dovetails which was kahrs goal to keep the cost down. Now with the new xs big dots availalbe for the cm and cw, an owner himself can install with ease these sights, where as those dovetails can be real bastards to get out. I am anxious to see the cm or cw with the xs sights. That to me kinda maybe, sorta, could be, chances are, might level the playing field even more for these little cheap ass cm and cw kahrs.. Jsut sayin:hurt:

[chrish]

I hope you know I was kidding, nothing more. The quippy remark just 'came to me'. All in fun. Some of my best friends are Glocks, er, Glock owners.

[jocko]

no harm no foul, unless ur Bawanna... I can take it.

can't believe ur friends with glock owners, that is almost like me being friends with honder owners. Just ain't gonna ever happen.

[Tinman507]

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/cantwealljustgetalong.jpg

[Haven]

Kahr is located in Massachusetts. It cost more to do anything is this dang state. I still find it hard to believe they are located in such a unfriendly gun state.

[QuercusMax]

Kahr is located in Massachusetts. It cost more to do anything is this dang state. I still find it hard to believe they are located in such a unfriendly gun state.

History and inertia are hard forces to overcome.

They can't just up and move to Idaho. :D Or some other state.

But it does make you wonder what it will take to move the traditional gun center of America to some place that truly is more friendly to their product.

[JERRY]

Once you break off the glock front sight to replace it with nites it uses a small socket head to screw on the new one....easy peasy.

[kerby9mm]

What are the drawbacks to dovetail sights. Just curious. All my guns are dovetailed so I don't know any better.

[jocko]

not defending the pinned sights but IMO pin sight is very neat on the front of the slide. No slots needed.

[CJB]

The secret to driving out the dovetail sights, is SECURE mounting of the slide in a strong heavy vice, using a proper brass punch with non-rounded edges, and using the correct size hammer. Too big, you don't get the energy. Too small, you don't get the energy. You need a hammer that is fairly light, but ample. Quick taps work best, no sledge whacks.

[Russ]

Kahr made a strategic move when they released the CM9 priced in the $300 range. Kahr for the longest time could command $600 for a 9mm CCW because there was no competition but those days are gone.

S&W Shield retails for $449 and some are picking them up in the high $300. You don't have to love the Shield but S&W and other big names jumping into the CCW market forced Kahr to make a few minor changes to a $600 gun and rename it CM9 and drop the price 40%.

Isn't competition great!

Without it you would be paying $600 for a 9mm to ride in your pocket.

Russ

[chrish]

Kahr made a strategic move when they released the CM9 priced in the $300 range. Kahr for the longest time could command $600 for a 9mm CCW because there was no competition but those days are gone.

S&W Shield retails for $449 and some are picking them up in the high $300. You don't have to love the Shield but S&W and other big names jumping into the CCW market forced Kahr to make a few minor changes to a $600 gun and rename it CM9 and drop the price 40%.

Isn't competition great!

Without it you would be paying $600 for a 9mm to ride in your pocket.

Russ

An excellent point, but then again, I paid $600 x2 to have 2 9mm (P9/TP9) that won't fit in my pocket and have to go on my belt just like a $300 9mm.

[Russ]

An excellent point, but then again, I paid $600 x2 to have 2 9mm (P9/TP9) that won't fit in my pocket and have to go on my belt just like a $300 9mm.


chrish:

CM models in all calibers in my opinion will be the future for Kahr in the CCW market.

The market has spoken and the price point for high quality and reliable ccws is now $300 - $400 range. (Sorry PM owners $600 is history for poly guns)

I am sure you have some fine weapons in the P9 and TP9 but in my honest opinion the ccw market has changed with major gun manufactures jumping in with $300 - $400 reliable poly pocket ccw guns. (Yes, I pocket my Shield in Dockers 10 hours per day.)

Fortunately for Kahr they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall soon enough to launch the CM9 otherwise in my opinion Kahr would have been left out in the cold.

Russ

[joshh]

chrish:

CM models in all calibers in my opinion will be the future for Kahr in the CCW market.

The market has spoken and the price point for high quality and reliable ccws is now $300 - $400 range. (Sorry PM owners $600 is history for poly guns)

I am sure you have some fine weapons in the P9 and TP9 but in my honest opinion the ccw market has changed with major gun manufactures jumping in with $300 - $400 reliable poly pocket ccw guns. (Yes, I pocket my Shield in Dockers 10 hours per day.)

Fortunately for Kahr they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall soon enough to launch the CM9 otherwise in my opinion Kahr would have been left out in the cold.

Russ

Agree 100%. most people dont want to spend (in my case) over $700 on a pistol that isnt a collectible or competition. The shield is $399 to $450 around here and they are sold out everywhere. Also, here in MA you cant buy a CW9 (not allowed because of the Dems) and since the shield came out my local says they havent sold a single PM9. i am looking to buy the wife something soon and a cw9 or maybe a 380 would be great but i am prob gonna end up getting her a shield or more likely a bodyguard. we are limited to what we can get up here because we let our politicians get too powerful:(...

[jocko]

no doubt more can affored $400 o0ver $600, but there are alot of people who will look right past the cw ad cm series and go for the "gusto". I am sure kahr knows the P and PM series would suffer in sales with the intro of the cw an cm series, probably a good trade off though. The cm an cw is a fine gun. No excuses need be made for them either..

[chrish]

chrish:

CM models in all calibers in my opinion will be the future for Kahr in the CCW market.

The market has spoken and the price point for high quality and reliable ccws is now $300 - $400 range. (Sorry PM owners $600 is history for poly guns)

I am sure you have some fine weapons in the P9 and TP9 but in my honest opinion the ccw market has changed with major gun manufactures jumping in with $300 - $400 reliable poly pocket ccw guns. (Yes, I pocket my Shield in Dockers 10 hours per day.)

Fortunately for Kahr they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall soon enough to launch the CM9 otherwise in my opinion Kahr would have been left out in the cold.

Russ

Yea, I'm agreeing w/ your original post (and this one too). Not defending (or blasting) the $600 price of the TP/P/PM series. I was joking that it doesn't much matter where you carry it (pocket or belt), that it's still a pricey $600+ 9mm.

I completely agree that for a daily carry, ccw pistol, that the $300-$400 price range is MUCH better for the intended purpose/market here. The CW/CM models had not come out yet when I picked up my PM9 and P9 back awhile. They might have been just hitting the market when I got the P9, I forget. But it wasn't an option at the time for me. I'd be giving STRONG consideration to a CW9 today if I were shopping. They are exceptional pistols at (IMO) a great price. Many more folks are going to consider one over the more expensive sibling, as they should.

Side note, there is unfortunately no C equivalent to the T series stuff...so that was my only option there. I just picked up the TP earlier this year.

[sierrajb]

At $350 range, they are pretty damn cheap... CM and CW are good deals.

So, I can find a Kahr 45 for $350? Where?

[Bawanna]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_51/products_id/52707

[Bawanna]

I'm so used to trying to sell my wife that I completely don't consider the usual add on dollars. Bud's does ship free. In Washington we have to pay tax. Another factor is the receiving end FFL fee.

If your local dealer isn't on Bud's list they just have to send a copy of their FFL to Buds and your set. Bud's will add them to their list if they request it.
Some like it, some don't.

Some things never change, wives saying no and taxes.

[jocko]

Question for the greatone

[jocko]

QUESTION FOR THE GREAT ONE

where in hell did all or women folk go??? What did u do now to scare them off??? U were worse than Mickey Mantle even, u hit on every one of them. course Mickey did hit some home runs where as ur still swinging away. Just sayin

[downtownv]

I firmly believe if you buy quality... You only buy it once
Quality is like oats pure clean oats command a fair price, the oats that passed thru the horse are considerably cheaper

[jocko]

never thought about oats that way, but a damn good point. I was stopping in McDonals lately and buying their new oat meal breakfast but I noticed all those McDonalds that sell the oak meal breakfast now have a small stable out back. I thought it was something new for maybe kids to ride horse on etc, but ur point now has me thinking, for sometimes their oats taste like sh!t to. Just sayin. Man I tell u this forum is just full of brite people.

[OlympicFox]

I can think of several reasons why a Kahr costs more money that a Glock, Ruger or ???

1. Miniaturization: Many of the Kahr's are cutting edge small for their caliber. The PM40 is a classic example. The smaller the gun, the more critical the details of the design and construction are.
2. Economies of Scale: It's a simple fact of economics that high volume products cost less - a lot less - than low volume products because the fixed costs of engineering, manufacturing and marketing are spread out over many more units. If you spend $5M to develop a new pistol and bring it to the market where you expect to sell 20,000 units, then your development cost/unit is $150. However, if you expect to sell 100,000, then your development cost is only $30/unit.
4. Details of Design: Did you notice how a PM9 is a different gun than a PM40? Unlike most other guns that come in both 9 & 40 flavors, the Kahr's have more than just different barrels. This kind of attention to detail increases the cost of engineering, manufacturing, and parts inventory.
5. Details of Assembly: Did you notice the silky smooth trigger of your Kahr? Compare that to any other polymer gun - or any other production gun, for that matter. Ditto for the polished feed ramp. I've got a safe full of guns that I paid $150 & more for action work that none of my 6 Kahr's needed.
5. Forged & bar stock parts vs. MIM: Ever think of how many folks spend more money on a Kimber that comes with MIM & plastic parts. My wife spent $1400 on a real pretty S&W 1911Sc that came with plastic parts. :o Even the all stainless Kahr's like my K9 are cheap compared to a production 1911 without MIM or plastic parts.
6. Patents. Kahr owns several patents that are significant to the design of small handguns.
7. Made in USA. Let's face it, it costs more to make something in the USA, and guns are certainly no exception.