Chambering the first round, a slingshot modification

[gb6491]

Just wondering if there is any interest in a modification to the Kahr 9mm follower that makes chambering a round via the "slingshot method" much easier and consistent (IMO, enough so that they could rewrite the manual). It also seems to hold the top round better and might prevent loss of the round during loose pocket carry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y12XanmHYa4
Regards,
Greg

Modification detailed in post #12
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

[mr surveyor]

:)



surv

[JimBianchi]

ping for more info

[ripley16]

I've thought for as long as I've owned a Kahr that the magazine design is the weakness of the line and needs to be redesigned.

[Thunder71]

In my opinion that's how it SHOULD work... I racked the slide on my XDM last night to chamber a round and really wish my Kahr was like that - it's the only drawback to the gun.

[jocko]

funny, Ihave no issues with the kahr magazines in racdking a live round into the gun in my K9 or PJM9 or P380. Kahrs magazines are waht they are by design, not by accident. I credit thatto the offset feed ramp allowing a lower bore axis and there fore a more pleasant gun to shoot than most.. It's only a drwaback if you allow it to be that.

[gb6491]

funny, Ihave no issues with the kahr magazines in racdking a live round into the gun in my K9 or PJM9 or P380. Kahrs magazines are waht they are by design, not by accident. I credit thatto the offset feed ramp allowing a lower bore axis and there fore a more pleasant gun to shoot than most.. It's only a drwaback if you allow it to be that.
Jocko,
I agree to a point. I can rack rounds into my CW9 and CW45 without issue using the magazines as they come from the factory. The CW45 can be done in almost any manner. The CW9 requires strict attention to technique and is not tolerant of sloppiness. I believe this is enough of a problem that Kahr rewrote their manual to advise only using the slide stop to chamber a round.
Likewise, while the Kahr magazines are what they are by design and not by accident, I agree with Ripley 16: "I've thought for as long as I've owned a Kahr that the magazine design is the weakness of the line and needs to be redesigned." I've detailed my issues with the CW45 magazine before (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1612) and certainly believe the 9mm magazine performance could be improved upon.
Now, with that all said, I respect the opinion of others and if they are happy with a thing as it is, well all the more power to them. I'm not trying to convince anyone they need to mod their magazines, just letting them know what works for me. As in most things, YMMV:)

For those with interest: write up to follow.
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Put me in the interested column. Theres room for improvement in just about everything and your just the guy to help make it happen.

[BEARDOG]

I am interested in seeing your mod Greg.

I have played with the idea of increasing the angle of the follower before to help this issue, but never made any permanent changes to the few mags I have.

[wyntrout]

Ditto, Greg.

Wynn:)

[gb6491]

OK folks, here's how I did it (it's not a "how to do it", so proceed with caution and at your own risk if decide to attempt something similar:yo:)
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

First off I want to give some credit where it is due. I’m sure many here have seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPa3MtWkias
Basically, the maker of it suggests the use of a ProMag magazine to facilitate loading the first round from a magazine.

I finally acquired a ProMag (thanks Jim) for a little hands on research. ProMag has something of a less than stellar reputation on the internet. I’m not going to try and change that because, after seeing this magazine, I believe it’s warranted. I do need to mention that this magazine was used, so read the following with that in mind. My ProMag is a ten round magazine; I found the spring is totally inadequate for that configuration. To compound this, the follower is rough and oversize. The magazine would only feed two rounds before a nose dive stoppage on the third round. However, it did feed the first round easily; now is that because of the loose spring tension (my Kahr will usually feed without issue from a downloaded magazine) or something else. After a little comparison, I decided to eliminate the magazine tube from the equation and opted to try the ProMag follower in a Kahr magazine. My first thought here was use the Kahr spring, but it will not work with the follower unless the follower is modified to accept it. Speaking of modifications, the follower needs to sanded on it sides and rear to function without binding in the Kahr tube. I tried installing the follower with the ProMag spring and was able to fit it all in the Kahr magazine tube. This combination allowed for a capacity of 7 rounds (just like a complete Kahr unit). It also put the rounds under much more spring tension. Bench testing confirmed that the top round still fed easily and that the follower would lock the slide back. Testing in the field, the magazine functioned without issue. If the ProMag spring will hold up, I believe this is a viable modification as is.
http://i62.tinypic.com/b6sm0z.jpg
Here's the ProMag follower/spring in a Kahr tube at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYZrSqGTdk

I’m not inclined to trust that spring; beside that, I’m not sure where to find a replacement if need should arise.
As it did put comparable (to an OEM magazine) pressure on the top round, I decided that the follower is the reason this all works. Now, I probably could modify the follower to work with the Kahr spring and be done with it, but after some study thought I could modify the Kahr follower to work and eliminate the need to buy extra parts.

What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper.
There is a transition point on the Kahr follower where the front portion of the feed surface slopes downward from the rear section. I decided this needs to be reduced and moved forward. I did this by wrapping the pencil in sandpaper and sanding along the rear plane of the follower maintaining it original angle. This did not totally solve the feeding issue, but perhaps it might if you took it further than I did. Then again, you risk sanding through the top of the follower. Next, I sanded the top of the follower, reducing the two ridges there. I did this by laying the sandpaper on a flat surface and sanding the top by moving the follower (again maintaining the existing angle). Now we’re cooking! Bench testing results were great as the top round feeds much easier than the stock configuration and there is no change to how the slide locks back. My previous video shows how it works, but here's another where I somewhat ride the slide home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016MHow)

How to sand:
http://i58.tinypic.com/ou34v7.jpg
How much to sand with the pencil backed sandpaper:
http://i51.tinypic.com/28as214.jpg
How much to sand using a flat surface (just under .06" on the calipers. I suggest repeated testing as material is removed to preclude manufacturing tolerances causing any issues) :
http://i52.tinypic.com/28bd8hc.jpg
Finished:
http://i56.tinypic.com/34s0b5y.jpg
For comparison:
http://i60.tinypic.com/35i536w.jpg

Update - I had an interesting development:
"... I had both mags apart yesterday and upon reassembly, both required brisk manipulation to feed hollow point (no more riding the slide). I was dumbfounded by this development, but figured it had to be something I had done. A quick checked showed that everything looked good (parts were clean and installed correctly with the springs properly orientated). I decided to flip ends of the springs and was back in business after doing this. While this worked, I've no clue why other than there is the slightest difference between ends of the springs (and on both springs). The end that seems to have a less steep angle on the last coil needed to be at the follower. I'm going to follow this up when the new springs arrive."

So for now, I'm pleased with my modified mags, but want to do more testing. (as of 5-27, make that "very pleased" :) )
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

So you used all Kahr parts for the modification or a mix of Kahr and ProMag?

[gb6491]

So you used all Kahr parts for the modification or a mix of Kahr and ProMag?
My apologies for not being clearer. There are actually two possible modifications described in my post:
The first involves a Kahr magazine tube with a ProMag follower and spring. This is pretty much just a parts swap (the exception being that the follower may need some fitting).

Everything (text, photos, and link) found below where I wrote in bold "What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper." describes a mod using only Kahr parts. This mod does require work be done to the Kahr follower.

Regards,
Greg

[Serafino]

Greg thank you for taking the time to post this. Thank you also for not being satisfied with things as they were, despite the fact that some almost seem to disapprove of such dissatisfaction. ;)

What you have done sounds like just the sort of thing that ought to already have happened long ago in a conscientiously engineered product. Being able to chamber a round by racking the slide is crucial to speed in malfunction clearance and speed is everything in a gunfight.

[TominCA]

Thanks for the effeort that went into giving us this - It looks like it would be worth doing and the maximum "risk" is only a follower!

[Thunder71]

Thanks for the clarification... Any idea if this works for the 6 round magazine as well, it seems your first video shows the 6 round failing followed by samples using a 7 round magazine.

[G3709]

I have no problem feeding a live round with my K9 by racking the slide even when brand new. Just make sure to pull the slide all the way back until it can go back no further. You can hear the noise of the barrel hit the cam surface. One of the easiest ways to rack it is to grasp the slide with the thumb and forefinger of the nonshooting hand. Push the shooting hand forward as far as possible and release the slide to chamber a cartridge. Because of the heavy recoil spring, it is easier to work the slide by pushing forward on the frame than by pulling back on the slide.
BTW, my K9 no longer has issue with premature slide lock and the recoil is softer with new slide stop, and recoil spring that Kahr sent me.

[gb6491]

Thanks folks!


Thanks for the clarification... Any idea if this works for the 6 round magazine as well, it seems your first video shows the 6 round failing followed by samples using a 7 round magazine.
I see no reason that it should not work for the 6 round magazine. In regards to the video, the first magazine in the sequence is a 7 rounder with a metal base plate. It is also unmodified. I included it to show what the issue is. Sorry for any confusion that caused.

In the little bit I've carried these magazines with modified followers, I've not had any issues with the top round dislodging. While I don't have enough experience with them to be convinced they will solve the lost round issue some have experienced, I'm convinced they hold the round better than the stock follower does.
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

Sorry for all the questions, but in your honest opinion - which option do you think is best, the modified Kahr follower or using the ProMag parts?

[gb6491]

Sorry for all the questions, but in your honest opinion - which option do you think is best, the modified Kahr follower or using the ProMag parts?
I'm not enamored with the ProMag spring and I like that the Kahr follower has a metal insert on the slide stop shelf. There is risk to modifying the Kahr follower (you could ruin it) and you can avoid that by using the ProMag parts.
All that said, I've went with the modified Kahr follower and all Kahr parts for my magazines. That's not meant to discount the ProMag /Kahr setup as it did function without issue.
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

Great, and thanks again for all of the info!

Now to work on convincing you to modify one for me for a small fee :)

[OldLincoln]

"Whawl, if it was sposed to be that way, Mr. Browning would have made it that way!" Oops, wrong forum! :)

Good for you Greg. I know I must be missing something here, so please explain to the dummy in me how the follower mod affects the top round as it apparently does. Also, please let us know how it works out after a few hundred rounds

[gb6491]

I have no problem feeding a live round with my K9 by racking the slide even when brand new. Just make sure to pull the slide all the way back until it can go back no further. You can hear the noise of the barrel hit the cam surface. One of the easiest ways to rack it is to grasp the slide with the thumb and forefinger of the nonshooting hand. Push the shooting hand forward as far as possible and release the slide to chamber a cartridge. Because of the heavy recoil spring, it is easier to work the slide by pushing forward on the frame than by pulling back on the slide.
BTW, my K9 no longer has issue with premature slide lock and the recoil is softer with new slide stop, and recoil spring that Kahr sent me.
G3709,
Thanks for the input; as I mentioned earlier in this thread, "I can rack rounds into my CW9 and CW45 without issue using the magazines as they come from the factory. The CW45 can be done in almost any manner. The CW9 requires strict attention to technique and is not tolerant of sloppiness. I believe this is enough of a problem that Kahr rewrote their manual to advise only using the slide stop to chamber a round." This mod just makes the pistol much more tolerant of how it is charged and does so without changing any other aspect of the pistol's functionality. It's good that you are satisfied with the operation of your pistol as it is and I wish you continued satisfaction with it.
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

Yeah, I can repeat the lock up about 90% of the time with ease... even sometimes when I try my darndest it will lock up, and sometimes complete the cycle a moment later. If I could get it to reliably rack a round using the slingshot method I'd be one happy camper - will be trying it this weekend since I never use my 7 round magazine anyway.

[gb6491]

"Whawl, if it was sposed to be that way, Mr. Browning would have made it that way!" Oops, wrong forum! :)

Good for you Greg. I know I must be missing something here, so please explain to the dummy in me how the follower mod affects the top round as it apparently does. Also, please let us know how it works out after a few hundred rounds
Thanks,:)
As to how it works, I believe it limits, to greater degree than the factory follower does, how far the top round nosedives when chambering. That seems to give the round a slightly nose higher aspect when it hit's the ramp minimizing the probability of it jamming. It could also be that it just causes the round to hit the ramp higher (regardless of attitude) which would also (IMO) minimize the chance of a nose dive failure. Anyway, those thoughts are what I based my modification on. I could be far off the mark with them, but I'm happy with the results.

I've about 60 rounds through the first magazine I modified without any failures and will update as I shoot more.

Regards,
Greg

[gb6491]

Hey Greg! Thanks for your tireless and well documented efforts to improve the "Kahr experience". Although hand racking my PM40 and CW40 is easy, I am going to try your modification to see if it helps make the occasional nose dive I have experienced with 180 grain Winchester Ranger JHP ammo. I would love to have the cheaper, slightly more potent, 180 grain stuff work as well as its 135 grain sibling, which is 100% reliable (knock wood). Your modification may be the key. That would make you a hero in my book. Thanks again. :)

By the way, what is the purpose of the round "dimple" in your modified follower? Is it important?
Hey, thanks TucsonMTB. I look forward to hearing if this helps with feeding 180 gr. pills in your pistols.

That round "dimple" is just a result of sanding down the follower. There is some irregularity in that area to start with. My other magazine has it as well (though not as defined).

Regards,
Greg

Whoa, I had this reply typed and had to step away from the computer for a moment. I just posted and saw that you've done the mod.
I now look forward to the range report. Thanks!

[Thunder71]

Ok I did this mod today over lunch hour but only did part of it and it works great!

I only flattened the top of the follower, not the angle - I can ride the slide all the way in and it chambers great.

I haven't tried it at the range yet, so fingers crossed for another 600+ flawless rounds. Worst case I take the one out of my 7 round magazine and replace it.

LOVE this mod, thank you.

[gb6491]

Ok I did this mod today over lunch hour but only did part of it and it works great!

I only flattened the top of the follower, not the angle - I can ride the slide all the way in and it chambers great.

I haven't tried it at the range yet, so fingers crossed for another 600+ flawless rounds. Worst case I take the one out of my 7 round magazine and replace it.

LOVE this mod, thank you.
Excellent post Thunder71:)
I'm going to edit my earlier post to include your info about only needing to flatten the top of the follower. That makes the mod that much easier to do and falls in line with my results wherein doing just the pencil sanding didn't fix the issue completely. With your input, it would seem that the combination of sanded surfaces may not be necessary :D
I look forward to reading your range report.
Regards,
Greg

[Denny M]

How much would you say you took off the top? I am having a tough time reading your calipers. If I decide to only sand the top how much would you suggest i take off.

By the way, good stuff. Must have taken some b*lls to do it on a pig in a poke.

[Thunder71]

I used the 600 grit sandpaper, didn't take off much at all - enough to flatten the top and a couple swipes more. Now I wonder if I could have sanded even less, so easy and quick.

All you need is for the round to be ever so slightly higher in the magazine and bam, works wonders!

[gb6491]

How much would you say you took off the top? I am having a tough time reading your calipers. If I decide to only sand the top how much would you suggest i take off.

By the way, good stuff. Must have taken some b*lls to do it on a pig in a poke.
Just under .06" on the calipers. I suggest repeated testing as material is removed to preclude manufacturing tolerances causing any issues.
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

After further testing the gun still fires 100% of the rounds but the mag can still lock up like they usually do, even tried the 2nd step - might have to sand a little more.

[OldLincoln]

Greg, do you still have the nose gap between the top and second round in the mag? Sorry, I'm still trying to get my arms around this thing. Also, have you or others replaced mag springs after the mod? If so how did that work out?

[gb6491]

Greg, do you still have the nose gap between the top and second round in the mag? Sorry, I'm still trying to get my arms around this thing. Also, have you or others replaced mag springs after the mod? If so how did that work out?
Hi Old Lincoln,
There is still a gap there. Visually, I would say it looks the same. Physically, the top round in a magazine with the modified seems less springy/less range of motion if you press down on the nose of it.

Let me expound on my thought process for this modification.
1. I knew a ProMag magazine would feed the rounds after watching a video posted on YouTube.
2. I could verify this after getting a ProMag magazine for myself.
3, I was able to duplicate those results with a ProMag follower and spring in a Kahr magazine tube.
4. The ProMag spring and Kahr spring seemed about equal in the amount of pressure the apply to a follower in a Kahr magazine tube. BTW, I don't have an extra Kahr spring to see how a replacement might work, but one of my Kahr magazines is relatively new.
5. As the springs are a wash, this led me to believe that the follower is the key component.
6. Side by side, it's pretty obvious that the ProMag provides front edge support differently than the Kahr follower does. In the following photo, I've highlighted that difference.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2uqbujm.jpg
7. I decided to try and mimic that difference when modifying the Kahr follower. I've highlighted the next photo to illustrate what I was able to accomplish in comparison to an unmodified Kahr follower (highlighted in red):
http://i52.tinypic.com/9a4p60.jpg
I should have highlighted the center of the followers as well becuase I did move the point where it starts it's downward slope forward (while reducing it's amplitude) on the modified mag.

I know this is a "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" approach, but I'm more than pleased with the result (pretty much as I imagine the blind pig is with his acorn:)).
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Looks like some very well thought out logic to me. I seriously think your onto something here. Your reducing the chance of a nosedive which is what seems to be what we hear most often.
If this isn't the cure I think your on the right track to getting there.

[gb6491]

Thanks Bawanna.
I'm convinced that this is a viable modification. Previously, if I wanted to charge my CW9 without using the slide stop, I needed to go with a very brisk, overhand, slingshot. If it was hollow points, make that a very, very, brisk operation. Post modification, I can pretty much ride the slide to a stand still and feed ball. Most hollow points are not far behind that, with my most aggressively cupped ones requiring only a nonchalant release of the slide. I've done both of my magazines now and will do so with anymore I acquire. Here's another video I just shot to try and show how easily both types ammo feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFFwz0-jrYo

FWIW, My CW45 has always been easy to charge (once the magazine is seated) :crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45CfcRIlDto

Regards,
Greg

[Serafino]

Interesting that the lowered position of the round on the follower is not a problem, since it appears the modification does not lead to the follower rising enough higher in the tube to make up for it?

I guess the slide stop would stop the upward travel in any case, which makes the success of this mod even more interesting and makes me wonder whether a redesigned follower with the new geometry but the old height level might work even better? Or are the original followers so 'off' in their geometry that even the changed relationship of round to slide stop tab is an improvement?

[gb6491]

Interesting that the lowered position of the round on the follower is not a problem, since it appears the modification does not lead to the follower rising enough higher in the tube to make up for it?

I guess the slide stop would stop the upward travel in any case, which makes the success of this mod even more interesting and makes me wonder whether a redesigned follower with the new geometry but the old height level might work even better? Or are the original followers so 'off' in their geometry that even the changed relationship of round to slide stop tab is an improvement?
My apologies for this, but I forgot to take any photos of how the magazines look with rounds in them and the modified /unmodified followers in place.
The feed lips of the magazine ultimately control the height of the round as it is presented for chambering. So this is constant with the modified and stock follower. The angle of the stock follower is also maintained by the mod. What the mod does is increase the length that the follower supports a cartridge. In the following photo I've high lighted where cartridge support ends for the stock and modified followers.
http://i56.tinypic.com/16az0u9.jpg
This increased support for the bottom round in a stack is apparently enough to affect how the whole stack acts.
It's also worth noting that becuase the stock follower is tapered at the top, the modified follower actually stops at about the same height. This makes for little change to the point where the slide stop and follower engage.
Regards,
Greg

[Serafino]

Ah drat I wasn't taking everything into account in my thinking. Sorry about the red herring.

[BEARDOG]

Greg,
I tried your mod. on one of my followers as you have shown. I only have 1 each- 6rd,7rd,8rd - 9mm mags for my CW9 and CM9. I just did the one from the 8 rd. mag.
I can usually slingshot both my Kahrs without too much trouble, but this would be a welcome upgrade to the Kahr mags as we all know, they can use all the help they can get...:rolleyes:.

I have tried it in all the mags, and I have noticed some improvement hand cycling the rds. I agree that the improvement stems from the increased nose support, by moving the "pivot" point forward it helps stabilize the cartridge. I can't say it is a 100% can't make it jam when riding the slide mod.
But it shows an improvement, and when normally racking the slide, I think it will make it more trouble free. I have not fired the guns yet with the mod so I can only assume it will work as yours does.
I can also tell a big difference in ease of function in the 2 types of hollow point ammo I have tried it with. It seems the 147gr Rangers are much easier to load then the 124gr Gold dots. The Rangers have a different profile that let them hit the ramp slightly higher I think is the reason why? Anyway, the Rangers go in like butter and the G.D. still can hang if done slowly.

I sanded the belly maybe slightly father forward then yours, sanded down the top, and I also beveled the sides to fit the angle of the feed lips, and also to make sure the slide lock pin come up far enough to positively engage the slide stop and it does that well. I will have to play with it at the range some to see how it preforms.

One thing I do wonder about after being used for sometime, Is if this mod will cause any wear on the follower? It would seem Kahr made it the way they did for a reason???, and I wonder why?
Time will tell.

Pic of mine, modified follower on top vs. a stock on bottom.
http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/BeardogV1/P5200036magmod33.jpg

[gb6491]

Thanks for the feedback BEARDOG and TucsonMTB.
As you all have had mixed results, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps I didn't just encounter a "perfect storm" with my particular pistol and this mod. I'm going to research this a little further so I ordered some new followers and springs. I'll also give the ProMag follower some more work. Speaking of springs, I had both mags apart yesterday and upon reassembly, both required brisk manipulation to feed hollow point (no more riding the slide). I was dumbfounded by this development, but figured it had to be something I had done. A quick checked showed that everything looked good (parts were clean and installed correctly with the springs properly orientated). I decided to flip ends of the springs and was back in business after doing this. While this worked, I've no clue why other than there is the slightest difference between ends of the springs (and on both springs). The end that seems to have a less steep angle on the last coil needed to be at the follower. I'm going to follow this up when the new springs arrive.
So for now, I'm pleased with my modified mags, but want to do more testing. As BEARDOG put it "Time will tell", thanks again for your feedback.
Regards,
Greg

[OldLincoln]

Greg, I'm on your side and pulling for you as I've modified my mags and wanted to mod a pivoting follower to allow a steep angle at full mag to push all noses up and eliminate the nose down, yet level out as the rounds are spent. The idea is to always have upward pressure on the top round's nose.

Anyway, I thinking you have lessened pressure on the top round as indicated by your last post and reversing the springs. Please don't give up as nobody likes this issue and new owners don't expect the issues it brings, not like the answers they get.

If Kahr were more vocal they might tell us what they've tried and why they ended up with this follower design.

[jocko]

now ol lincoln, u know kahr is not going to tell us anything about how they arrive at anything. and certainly if u aks one of their in house "clown" for an answer, it's gonna make u also wonder where they get some of these people. I do believe one can do a mod to his gun and it works fine but when others try it, it doesn't produce the same results.

[DJK11]

I used the follower from an LCP installed in a P380 mag and it made no difference on the feeding or any difference in the top round flopping around. My P380 runs perfect, was just experimenting.

[CalBig]

So I had/have this issue on my 6-round PM40 mag. 5 rounder works. Also depends on ammo. I think I have slightly more insight in to the pathology of how this is happening. Having the top round in the mag diverge from the rounds below it in the magazine is actually a double whammy for this malfunction. When the noses of the rounds diverge, the end of the brass converges. This causes the rim of the top round to slide in to the extractor groove of the round below it. When the slide comes forward to strip the round, it is stopped at the bottom by the groove, and pushed at the top by the slide. To add insult to injury the nose of the round is unsupported since it's flying in the air. We get the nose dive and the malfunction.

The key is to get the rounds parallel, or as close to parallel as possible, which is what this mod is attempting to do by increasing upward pressure on the nose of the rounds in the magazine. I think the reason we get inconsistent results is that the combination of these two factors can impart and fail to stop a very strong nose-down moment. Until it is possible to get the rounds parallel there will always be a risk of this failure unless your ammo is so pointed (like a typical 9mm FMJ, or Hornaday Critical Defense in any caliber) that the feed ramp is capable pointing the round back up without malfunctioning.

I am going to try to get a better picture of what is actually going on inside the magazine tube when it is full and under spring tension. Is the cheap plastic follower deforming? Are the tails of the rounds coming up in order to allow the noses to go down?

-Adam

[Cornel]

Could someone make this thread "a sticky" one.... iiiiPLEASE!!!!

Cheers!!


OK folks, here's how I did it (it's not a "how to do it", so proceed with caution and at your own risk if decide to attempt something similar:yo:)
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

First off I want to give some credit where it is due. I’m sure many here have seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPa3MtWkias
Basically, the maker of it suggests the use of a ProMag magazine to facilitate loading the first round from a magazine.

I finally acquired a ProMag (thanks Jim) for a little hands on research. ProMag has something of a less than stellar reputation on the internet. I’m not going to try and change that because, after seeing this magazine, I believe it’s warranted. I do need to mention that this magazine was used, so read the following with that in mind. My ProMag is a ten round magazine; I found the spring is totally inadequate for that configuration. To compound this, the follower is rough and oversize. The magazine would only feed two rounds before a nose dive stoppage on the third round. However, it did feed the first round easily; now is that because of the loose spring tension (my Kahr will usually feed without issue from a downloaded magazine) or something else. After a little comparison, I decided to eliminate the magazine tube from the equation and opted to try the ProMag follower in a Kahr magazine. My first thought here was use the Kahr spring, but it will not work with the follower unless the follower is modified to accept it. Speaking of modifications, the follower needs to sanded on it sides and rear to function without binding in the Kahr tube. I tried installing the follower with the ProMag spring and was able to fit it all in the Kahr magazine tube. This combination allowed for a capacity of 7 rounds (just like a complete Kahr unit). It also put the rounds under much more spring tension. Bench testing confirmed that the top round still fed easily and that the follower would lock the slide back. Testing in the field, the magazine functioned without issue. If the ProMag spring will hold up, I believe this is a viable modification as is.
http://i53.tinypic.com/eq7869.jpg
Here's the ProMag follower/spring in a Kahr tube at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYZrSqGTdk

I’m not inclined to trust that spring; beside that, I’m not sure where to find a replacement if need should arise.
As it did put comparable (to an OEM magazine) pressure on the top round, I decided that the follower is the reason this all works. Now, I probably could modify the follower to work with the Kahr spring and be done with it, but after some study thought I could modify the Kahr follower to work and eliminate the need to buy extra parts.

What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper.
There is a transition point on the Kahr follower where the front portion of the feed surface slopes downward from the rear section. I decided this needs to be reduced and moved forward. I did this by wrapping the pencil in sandpaper and sanding along the rear plane of the follower maintaining it original angle. This did not totally solve the feeding issue, but perhaps it might if you took it further than I did. Then again, you risk sanding through the top of the follower. Next, I sanded the top of the follower, reducing the two ridges there. I did this by laying the sandpaper on a flat surface and sanding the top by moving the follower (again maintaining the existing angle). Now we’re cooking! Bench testing results were great as the top round feeds much easier than the stock configuration and there is no change to how the slide locks back. My previous video shows how it works, but here's another where I somewhat ride the slide home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016MHow)

How to sand:
http://i53.tinypic.com/55p3zo.jpg
How much to sand with the pencil backed sandpaper:
http://i51.tinypic.com/28as214.jpg
How much to sand using a flat surface (just under .06" on the calipers. I suggest repeated testing as material is removed to preclude manufacturing tolerances causing any issues) :
http://i52.tinypic.com/28bd8hc.jpg
Finished:
http://i56.tinypic.com/34s0b5y.jpg
For comparison:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2vtbl9c.jpg

Update - I had an interesting development:
"... I had both mags apart yesterday and upon reassembly, both required brisk manipulation to feed hollow point (no more riding the slide). I was dumbfounded by this development, but figured it had to be something I had done. A quick checked showed that everything looked good (parts were clean and installed correctly with the springs properly orientated). I decided to flip ends of the springs and was back in business after doing this. While this worked, I've no clue why other than there is the slightest difference between ends of the springs (and on both springs). The end that seems to have a less steep angle on the last coil needed to be at the follower. I'm going to follow this up when the new springs arrive."

So for now, I'm pleased with my modified mags, but want to do more testing. (as of 5-27, make that "very pleased" :) )
Regards,
Greg

[kpm9]

Just wondering if there is any interest in a modification to the Kahr 9mm follower that makes chambering a round via the "slingshot method" much easier and consistent


A solution in search of a problem?
Never been an issue for me. All my Kahr's slingshot fine.

[gb6491]

A solution in search of a problem?
Never been an issue for me. All my Kahr's slingshot fine.
Good for you and thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I stated earlier in the thread, I could/can "slingshot" my Kahr pistols as well. However, my CW9 was very technique sensitive (requiring a very brisk overhand manipulation of the slide). This mod simply makes manually chambering a round in it much less technique dependent. To my mind, having a larger window for success is a good thing in a defensive pistol. As always, YMMV (I guess that applies to opinions too).
GB

[Bawanna]

I think it falls into the making a good thing even better category too.

I can also slingshot and could out of the box but if something like this improves my chance of success as you say, that's just gotta be a good thing.

[yu2010]

Hi, GB6491:

I have a PM40. Will your mag mod work for PM40?

I would like to learn how you did it to your PM9.

Thanks.

Yu2010

[Craig_PHX]

What if you just put some J-B Weld on the top of the follower to get rid of the transition all together? Then you would not have to dink with anything except the front portion of the follower.

[mightymouse]

My experience with JB weld, is that with some poly plastics, 6/6 nylon it doesn't adhere well. I don't know what the follower is composed of but I can imagine a chunk of epoxy floating around at a crucial moment.

[garyb]

I'm always willing to learn something new especially if it is an improvement, so please share your details. I have not had a problem with my PM40 either way (Kahr's way or slingshot method). I wonder if your mod is something worth applying to the PM40 as well as the 9???? Anxious to see what you've done. Thanks in advance for sharing what works for you. Well done.

[jocko]

I guess I will go with the IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. theory.

[JFootin]

I think we ought to start a thread called: "Petition For Design Improvement For Kahr Magazines." Make it a sticky on the Magazines page. Start out with a statement that we don't buy Kahr's statements about perfect functionality and no need for changes. Point out how they have had to address the weaknesses in the design by putting instructions in the manual about using the slide stop to feed the first round. Put a long list of links to threads discussing magazine problems and, of course, highlight this thread as having some valid ideas for design changes. Encourage every member to sign the petition, and give a link to the thread to anyone reporting magazine problems. Then, get JohnH to present it to company management. Just saying..... :yell:

[Denny M]

+1 with JFootin!!

[Bawanna]

I think we ought to start a thread called: "Petition For Design Improvement For Kahr Magazines." Make it a sticky on the Magazines page. Start out with a statement that we don't buy Kahr's statements about perfect functionality and no need for changes. Point out how they have had to address the weaknesses in the design by putting instructions in the manual about using the slide stop to feed the first round. Put a long list of links to threads discussing magazine problems and, of course, highlight this thread as having some valid ideas for design changes. Encourage every member to sign the petition, and give a link to the thread to anyone reporting magazine problems. Then, get JohnH to present it to company management. Just saying..... :yell:

You sound like a gosh darn rabble rouser to me!




I always told yer momma you was gonna be a good boy and do something good someday. Maybe this is it?

[JFootin]

You sound like a gosh darn rabble rouser to me!

I always told yer momma you was gonna be a good boy and do something good someday. Maybe this is it?

Well, they used to call me Wild Dog in high school. But I just don't think it is right when customers are having to re-engineer their magazines to make them work right! :31:

And it is obvious from this thread that just a little creative thinking is all that is needed to solve this ongoing problem! If someone—anyone—at Kahr would just listen! :phone:

Maybe they are afraid of litigation if they ever admit there is something wrong with the magazines. :confused: But, gun makers fix and improve gun designs all the time, so why not fix this? Is there any one thing that you can think of that would make a greater improvement in the entire line than this? I don't think so!

[O'Dell]

funny, Ihave no issues with the kahr magazines in racdking a live round into the gun in my K9 or PJM9 or P380. Kahrs magazines are waht they are by design, not by accident. I credit thatto the offset feed ramp allowing a lower bore axis and there fore a more pleasant gun to shoot than most.. It's only a drwaback if you allow it to be that.

I agree - I've never had a problem racking the slide to chamber the first round either, although I know Kahr doesn't recommend it.

[jocko]

whoi decides that kahrs magazines need re=engineered. Surely not US. They probably have 500K kahrs floating around the country and now a few think kahr needs to go backto tge drawing board???

Does any other gun maker have an offset feed ramp, like kahr does BY DESIGN??? Could this maybe, just maye be one of the reasons kahr magazines are designed like they are??? I don't know that but just surmising, certainly 99% never complain about kahr magazines.

[gb6491]

Personally, I like to think of it as Kahr's half-a- feed ramp (not knocking it mind you), but I don't think that it has any bearing on the magazine's design. That some say they have had no problems racking the slide to chamber a round, doesn't negate that others have reported having problems doing it (why else did Kahr change the procedure in their manuals?). We've also seen that modifying the follower fixes some other issues. If folks still don't think the magazine can be improved upon they are welcome to that opinion; I'll continue to believe otherwise.
Regards,
Greg

[JFootin]

whoi decides that kahrs magazines need re=engineered. Surely not US. They probably have 500K kahrs floating around the country and now a few think kahr needs to go backto tge drawing board???

Does any other gun maker have an offset feed ramp, like kahr does BY DESIGN??? Could this maybe, just maye be one of the reasons kahr magazines are designed like they are??? I don't know that but just surmising, certainly 99% never complain about kahr magazines.

jocko, do you need new glasses or new fingers? LOL! It's getting harder and harder to read/interpret your mangled notes! :D You're just lucky with that PM9 of yours. There's a lot more than 1% of people on this forum that are having problems. A whole lot more. And I'll bet there is a pretty good percentage of those 500K guns out there that have never, or hardly ever, been fired. That's just the way it is with gun owners. The people on this forum are probably putting their kahrs to use more than most, and they ARE encountering problems. Even real experienced shooters like Greg.

An added note about the petition: everyone should just vote once.

[jocko]

and that is ur opinion...

[FHBrumb]

My CW 45 pulls the top round off of the mag with the sling shot method just fine. When I put in a fresh mag, I grab the rear of the slide over hand, and rack the slide that last little bot, and let it go.

[yqtszhj]

After reading this all last night I thought about doing the mod. Then I thought, let me see how my new CM9 does.

I go get my little friend, drop the mag, unload the chamber, slide forward, pull the trigger. Now to the test.

I insert the full 6 round mag. Pull back the slide and let go. The round chambers fine. I empty the whole mag by the way. No problems.

Next I reload the magazine with the full 6 rounds. I then put it inthe gun and think to myself "what if I ride the slide forward, will it work?" So I pull back the slide, ride it forward like I do with my 1911, the round fully chambers. I did the whole magazine this way with no problems. Reloaded the mag again, same thing with no problems. Those were blunt nose hollow points by the way.

My CW9 would not do this but CM9 does it with ease. Maybe I just got lucky and got one that would, maybe Kahr has it figured out. Either way for me, Kahr is +1.

[jocko]

I am a believer that one should do no mods when a gun is wlrking as it should. I can assure u that your cm9 will even get smoother as you shoot it and things mate up even nicers.

enjoy the cm9, it is IMO kahrs finest little pocket gun at a bargain price..

[FLBri]

First of all, sorry to resurrect a two month dormant thread, but having read it end to end twice I have some input that may clarify some things ... it does for me anyway.

I will also say for the record that I own a PM9 and a MK9. They are fantastic shooters and my favorite guns. The PM9 is always with me.

The PM9 has never fte or ftf once. Not even during break in. The Mk9 has the nose dive ftf issue 1 or 2 rounds out of a box of 50. Hence my interest in this thread.

To me, the fundamental heart of the problem (for those that have one ... some don't and that's great) is that a 9mm casing is tapered by roughly .009 from the base of the casing to the top of the casing just behind the bullet. The more that bullets are stacked, the more that differential is multiplied. That's why the issue presents more with 7 round mags than 6 rounds. Glock solves this (as some Youtube videos show) by double stacking the rounds, allowing them to nest together which decreases the effect of the taper. This won't work in the more concealable, thinner frame, Kahr.

I'm not sure how or why the mod discussed in this thread works, because it doesn't change the angle of the bed of the follower. When the follower is at the bottom of seven (or 6) rounds, I'm not sure how it is 'supporting' the front of the round as the multiplied gap caused by the tapered casing is unaffected. As the rounds become fewer in the magazine, the support IS increased. Don't get me wrong ... I'm not disputing that it works .... in fact I am going to make the mod myself in hopes that it helps the occasional feed issues with my MK. I just can't wrap my head around WHY it works. That bothers me (anal that way ... you should see me with golf clubs!).

The two options that would completely solve the problem, as I see it, is
#1 a mag design that is slightly curved. This is impractical as it would take a redesign and retooling of the frame to accept it (I think).
#2 and more reasonable, would be to have the bed of the follower on a pivot between sides of the same follower. This would allow compensation for the slightly changing angle as each round is stripped from the magazine, and every round would be supported all the way through the stack.

This would undoubtedly be a more expensive magazine by a few bucks .... but, as I think through, a permanent and stable solution. Now ... someone with better credentials than I can feel free to discount my logic with real mechanical engineering facts that shows me wrong. I'm willing to get an education.

[Bawanna]

Certainly no harm in resurrecting this old thread, there some very good stuff in it. The idea of a pivoting follower has been brought up and I think the concept is sound, would take some figuring on the front and rear skirts to allow it to pivot. I'm of course in need of education myself but I like the concept.

Your point of the follower being at the bottom of the stack is an excellent one. The fact that it becomes more pronounced as the magazine depletes itself is also sound. So why the heck does it work? It must allow for the taper to a certain amount even if just miniscule, enough to help a bit.

[FLBri]

The sum total of the taper in 7 rounds isn't more than 3/32". I think the follower has enough play that the skirt front and back would not be a problem. Also, if the mag spring was pressured favoring the front I believe that just allowing an 1/8" +/- of play in the tilt would do the trick.

I wonder if anyone here has enough machine shop skills and access that some type of Prototype could be made. If enough interested people got together to back the experiment, it can't cost THAT much to test the idea. Even bigger visions of a whole new marketing project for a new line of magazines!:cheer2:

[TheTman]

I've been able to slingshot a round into my CW40 and .45 for quite awhile now. I used the slide stop during break in, but now I almost never do.

[Bawanna]

I've always been able to slingshot both of mine.

The concern I have with a pivoting follower is it getting hung up. It has to be smooth and drag free with enough guidance that it won't tip or bind.

Something for folks smarter than I to take on.

[1slinginlead2]

I'm a new member here and i would like to say something. I have just purchased a used P40. Yeah it has the typical nose dive when loading without the the slide release(against kahr's recommendations). It does have the gap between the top two rounds in a fully loaded mag. I polished my feedramp and i can load either way now with no problem,just sayin. It wasn't really a issue anyway since i carry one in the chamber when i carry anyway,just did it as a precaution.

[Thunder71]

Ahh, but it IS an issue in my opinion... Magazines can fail. Load a new magazine and what? Lock the slide back to chamber the first round? Probably not going to be your first inclination when seconds count.

[jocko]

Ihave been of the opinion that the reason kahr recommends usig the slide stop leverto load that first rund is due to the over all tightness of kahrs when new. Bydoing what kahrs asks of a newowner it probably elminates alit of complaints that is actuall7 shgooter error and not the gun. I think once thegun get some rounds down range the recoil spring takes its designed set which helps alo0t and the slide has mated up much smoother also and the shooter himself has gotten accustomed to his new kahrs, for as we have read from almost all, after rounds down range none have any issues in sling shotting that first round. Kahrs are tight, they seem to remain pretty tight and when u add a new setof recoil springs on a kahr, it gets tight again for awhile..

[wyntrout]

I have on occasion had a failure to feed from slide lock release. A sharply released fully-to-the-rear rack works every time. It's all in the release... not riding it or letting your hold drag along with the slide at all. You can make that fail with limp-wristing, though.

No movie racks... barely-clearing-the-rear-of-the-top-cartridge minimum racks. That MIGHT work on well broken in guns, but don't be timid with racking the first round!

Wynn:)

[jocko]

One thing about using the slide release lever is that it release every time with the same velocity. Hand racking can vary, do it right and ur good to go, do it wrong and u have a ftf. It is all about consistency. I IMO feel kahrs are the hardest guns to hand rack perfectly.than any semi I have ever owned. Might just be me to.

[Thunder71]

No, they are finicky for sure... my XDM is a piece of cake, as is the P-01, P22 and Neos. The LCP was about the only gun that was close to the Kahr, but even that one would handle a hand rack.

[jocko]

yup my lcp and kel tek were that way but I attrribute thatto the over small size and just not much to get a hand around. Still easier than a kahr amd my P380 kahr was a real bit-h at first, I had to use the slide release lever for a long time before the gun and i finally mated up, but if I sneeze while hand racking my P380 it will ftf every time. I have to really be aware of my P380 when hand racking it, doesn't do to bad with fmj ammo but hp ammo I have to be on top of it. I carry it loaded all the time and at home so screw the messing up part..

[gb6491]

Thanks to all for their input. Some interesting thoughts have been posted and that's always a good thing.
Myself, I'm still of the same belief that I expressed earlier in this thread. I've also a thought in the back of my mind that some Kahr models may be over sprung; perhaps not in weight, but in spring length. I haven't really followed up on this with any testing, because, to tell the truth, all my Kahrs are running fine. As a little update to the mod that is the subject of this thread, here's a quick video I did today of my CW9 chambering a few different hollow points from magazines with the modified follower:
[/URL][URL="http://tinypic.com/r/4t7p8k/7"]View My Video (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=4t7p8k&s=7)
FWIW, I have not experienced a "lost round" from any of these modified magazines (in the pocket or in a pouch).
Regards,
Greg

(http://tinypic.com/r/4t7p8k/7)

[OldLincoln]

Now that is very convincing Greg! I haven't messed with mine cause "they ain't broke" but neither can I chamber a round slow like that. I may have to take another look and perhaps do 1 mag and see what happens.

The mags look full, were they? Were you pulling the slide forward or just releasing it?

[gb6491]

Now that is very convincing Greg! I haven't messed with mine cause "they ain't broke" but neither can I chamber a round slow like that. I may have to take another look and perhaps do 1 mag and see what happens.

The mags look full, were they? Were you pulling the slide forward or just releasing it?
All the mags were full. I was riding the slide as it went forward to slow it down, but the spring was doing all the work. There was a certain hollow point ( the low recoil, 135 Grain Hydra-Shok) that would occasionally need a helping hand forward if cycling the first round out this slowly, but they never bobbled if you just worked the slide or when firing them.
Thanks for asking:)
Regards,
Greg

[knkali]

wow like butter. My P40 needs much more violence to it when hand racking. I got to re read this thread. Nice Job professor!(as always)

[gb6491]

wow like butter. My P40 needs much more violence to it when hand racking. I got to re read this thread. Nice Job professor!(as always)
Thank you kindly:)
Regards,
Greg

[gb6491]

Brent reports that his version of this modification helps with second round nose dives. See his mod thread (with excellent photos) here:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9269
Regards,
Greg

[jaydee]

Both are great threads, but Greg, isn't Brent doing the same thing you did?
Is there a difference?
JD

[gb6491]

Both are great threads, but Greg, isn't Brent doing the same thing you did?
Is there a difference?
JD
JD,
I believe you are correct; pretty much the same thing with a slight variance in how the sanding is done (BEARDOG has a post in this thread where he sanded the follower much the same as Brent does). I think Brent's thread is excellent and wanted to include a link to it in this sticky.
Regards,
Greg

[deanp1964]

thanks Greg - my PM9 mags may benefit from this mod

[TennSCN]

Funny you should mention that post, I actually read to the end here hoping to see a follow up from BEARDOG on the results of his work. Further extending the supporting length of the follower and fitting the follower edges to the feed lips seems to be a natural evolution of the idea.

GB, you have initiated a great deal of cranial activity here and I, as a noob,to this forum, appreciate your inventiveness. Reading through the threads, I saw comments on the smoothness of the sanded follower. My thoughts would be 1000+ grit Emory or possibly 'flame smoothing' as we do with rigid foams.

I suppose I should order a few followers and see what can be done...

[OldLincoln]

Good post TennSCN and welcome to the forum!

[Brent]

Both are great threads, but Greg, isn't Brent doing the same thing you did?
Is there a difference?
JD


JD,
I believe you are correct; pretty much the same thing with a slight variance in how the sanding is done (BEARDOG has a post in this thread where he sanded the follower much the same as Brent does). I think Brent's thread is excellent and wanted to include a link to it in this sticky.
Regards,
Greg

When I started that thread I had read so much here on Kahrtalk that I didn't remember what I had read where. That said, I hope there was no misunderstanding that what I was doing was my own idea or something new. I just wanted to post some pics and share my results.

Thanks Greg for your valuable info posted here. It has definitely helped me in getting my minor nosedive issue resolved. :)

[gb6491]

When I started that thread I had read so much here on Kahrtalk that I didn't remember what I had read where. That said, I hope there was no misunderstanding that what I was doing was my own idea or something new. I just wanted to post some pics and share my results.

Thanks Greg for your valuable info posted here. It has definitely helped me in getting my minor nosedive issue resolved. :)
Hey Brent,
Thanks for the kind comments, they are very much appreciated.
As for the rest, I personally believe that you came up with a fix to your problem on your own. That it happened to mirror what I did here is a logical result because (as we both found) modifying the follower this way works. I like your post both for the information shared and the excellent photography. I linked it to this thread because this one has been made a sticky and thought by doing so yours would not slip into obscurity if other posts push it into the archives. Keep up the good work!
Regards,
Greg

[MO_Soldier]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?

[stumprat]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?



I was able to slingshot mine right out of the box. No break in required.

[Thunder71]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?

With my PM9 it's finicky with ammo in this regard, Winchester PDX works great - others, not so much. Fires everything, just doesn't slingshot everything.

My MK9 doesn't seem to care what I feed it.

[gb6491]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?
Naw, you're not the Lone Rangerhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-char092.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) My CW45 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45CfcRIlDto) and K9 could/can chamber a round via "slingshot" without issue or modification. My CW9, while able to chamber a round this way, was just very intolerant of any lapse in technique, hence this modification. Now, it's very tolerant of technique: http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=4t7p8k&s=7
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Both of mine slingshot without issue. I think all will if executed properly. As Greg pointed out it doesn't take much to ruin the proper execution. Both mine are fairly forgiving so either I'm lucky or I'm doing it right. Maybe both.

[Thunder71]

... or you have poor vision and someone sold you a Keltec for the price of a Kahr.

Doh! Sorry man, you didn't even deserve that one... I'll be waiting in my timeout chair.

[Bawanna]

... or you have poor vision and someone sold you a Keltec for the price of a Kahr.

Doh! Sorry man, you didn't even deserve that one... I'll be waiting in my timeout chair.

Well it's got a K in the middle of the part you hold onto, I guess it could be a Keltec. How do I really tell for sure? I don't know much about these deadly lead blasters but I'm tryin to learn some as I go along.

The one says PM so I assume that means Probably Mostly Kahr?

The other just has a K so the jury is still out on that one, it's all steel though so maybe that Kel place is getting into real stuff?

[jocko]

Both of mine slingshot without issue. I think all will if executed properly. As Greg pointed out it doesn't take much to ruin the proper execution. Both mine are fairly forgiving so either I'm lucky or I'm doing it right. Maybe both.

I had a hard time at first with my Pm9 but after awhile it was a brreze. I think it was lack of proper technique more than just one tight ass kahr..We learn by doing.

[joe d]

I can slingshot both my CM9 and CW45...I did the mag follower file down on my CM9 as Greg suggested ,but not on the CW45...None the less, they both slingshot without a problem,first time,every time...

[Cokeman]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?

I can.

[TriggerMan]

I think we ought to start a thread called: "Petition For Design Improvement For Kahr Magazines." Make it a sticky on the Magazines page. Start out with a statement that we don't buy Kahr's statements about perfect functionality and no need for changes. Point out how they have had to address the weaknesses in the design by putting instructions in the manual about using the slide stop to feed the first round. Put a long list of links to threads discussing magazine problems and, of course, highlight this thread as having some valid ideas for design changes. Encourage every member to sign the petition, and give a link to the thread to anyone reporting magazine problems. Then, get JohnH to present it to company management. Just saying..... :yell:Take your statement, add a girlie picture and get banned before breakfast.

Where do I sign up?

[MO_Soldier]

I think we ought to start a thread called: "Petition For Design Improvement For Kahr Magazines." Make it a sticky on the Magazines page. Start out with a statement that we don't buy Kahr's statements about perfect functionality and no need for changes. Point out how they have had to address the weaknesses in the design by putting instructions in the manual about using the slide stop to feed the first round. Put a long list of links to threads discussing magazine problems and, of course, highlight this thread as having some valid ideas for design changes. Encourage every member to sign the petition, and give a link to the thread to anyone reporting magazine problems. Then, get JohnH to present it to company management. Just saying..... :yell:

Where do I sign! YAY ACTIVISM!!!

[MW surveyor]

CW9, no mods to anything (except the front sight), slingshots perfectly every time.

[JFootin]

Take your statement, add a girlie picture and get banned before breakfast.

Where do I sign up?


Where do I sign! YAY ACTIVISM!!!

Ah. I've learned a lot since posting that. I understand now why they say use the slide stop to chamber a round: because it takes strong hands and perfect technique to sling shot these tight guns, and so many just won't be successful at doing it. I also now understand that Kahr did not design the mags to fall free; it was their intention that you pull them out. For those who want them free falling, we have the easy fix. Now, the issues with the mags cracking and floor plates falling off need to stop. And most of all, a redesign of the followers to reduce that dip in the front that seems to contribute to nose dives (shoot, it goes way too far back!), and a once and for all fix for the follower rubbing on the mag catch, must be addressed! If the problems mentioned in the last 2 sentences were fixed, wouldn't that solve the majority of problem incidents that we see on this forum? Some improvements in quality control and 2 simple design changes to one part, the mag, would reap such huge benefits for overall customer satisfaction and for Kahr's reputation.

[MO_Soldier]

Now, the issues with the mags cracking and floor plates falling off need to stop. And most of all, a redesign of the followers to reduce that dip in the front that seems to contribute to nose dives (shoot, it goes way too far back!), and a once and for all fix for the follower rubbing on the mag catch, must be addressed! If the problems mentioned in the last 2 sentences were fixed, wouldn't that solve the majority of problem incidents that we see on this forum? Some improvements in quality control and 2 simple design changes to one part, the mag, would reap such huge benefits for overall customer satisfaction and for Kahr's reputation.

Truer words have never been spoken. Unfortunately, it may cause less traffic to the forum though...double-edged sword?

[JFootin]

Truer words have never been spoken. Unfortunately, it may cause less traffic to the forum though...double-edged sword?

That would be good for us gun enthusiasts just enjoying our guns, humor, philosophy and a little bit of politics. ;)

[MO_Soldier]

That would be good for us gun enthusiasts just enjoying our guns, humor, philosophy and a little bit of politics. ;)

Very true. I must say, it's quite depressing hearing all of these problems...and honestly makes me think less of my gun even though it has done me no wrong.

[jlottmc]

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?
Both of mine slingshot with no issues. My wife still has a couple when she tries it, but I don't think she has the rip the gun out of your hand part down for that. I seldom use a slide stop for anything but a slide hold open device on anything including my CZ52 (look that one up, it locks open on empty but has only a bar to control that, no lever to push up or down, but I push the bar when I want it open.)

[jimsea]

a quick video of my results using Greg's mod.............

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9729

[dimden]

I modded all my mags by sanding the follower using a large Philips screwdriver wrapped with sand paper. My 7 and 8 round mag nosedive every-time while racking the side anything but very hard. So I sanded down the top part of the mag and it really made no difference. It did help my 6 round mags and when using Hornady Critical defense (very pointy round) I can slingshot by racking the side slowly. Just another data point.

[kiki]

Well i tried the mag mod. One one of my magazines and it did improve feeding, but only with rounds 124 grn or higher....my pm9 doesnt like 115 grn hp, unless there 115 fmjs.....besides that it feeds all fmjs and hps 124 or above.......115grn rem +p...are too short and they hang up on racking, sometimes on slingshot also....

[John222]

First of all, sorry to resurrect a two month dormant thread, but having read it end to end twice I have some input that may clarify some things ... it does for me anyway.

I will also say for the record that I own a PM9 and a MK9. They are fantastic shooters and my favorite guns. The PM9 is always with me.

The PM9 has never fte or ftf once. Not even during break in. The Mk9 has the nose dive ftf issue 1 or 2 rounds out of a box of 50. Hence my interest in this thread.

To me, the fundamental heart of the problem (for those that have one ... some don't and that's great) is that a 9mm casing is tapered by roughly .009 from the base of the casing to the top of the casing just behind the bullet. The more that bullets are stacked, the more that differential is multiplied. That's why the issue presents more with 7 round mags than 6 rounds. Glock solves this (as some Youtube videos show) by double stacking the rounds, allowing them to nest together which decreases the effect of the taper. This won't work in the more concealable, thinner frame, Kahr.

I'm not sure how or why the mod discussed in this thread works, because it doesn't change the angle of the bed of the follower. When the follower is at the bottom of seven (or 6) rounds, I'm not sure how it is 'supporting' the front of the round as the multiplied gap caused by the tapered casing is unaffected. As the rounds become fewer in the magazine, the support IS increased. Don't get me wrong ... I'm not disputing that it works .... in fact I am going to make the mod myself in hopes that it helps the occasional feed issues with my MK. I just can't wrap my head around WHY it works. That bothers me (anal that way ... you should see me with golf clubs!).

The two options that would completely solve the problem, as I see it, is
#1 a mag design that is slightly curved. This is impractical as it would take a redesign and retooling of the frame to accept it (I think).
#2 and more reasonable, would be to have the bed of the follower on a pivot between sides of the same follower. This would allow compensation for the slightly changing angle as each round is stripped from the magazine, and every round would be supported all the way through the stack.

This would undoubtedly be a more expensive magazine by a few bucks .... but, as I think through, a permanent and stable solution. Now ... someone with better credentials than I can feel free to discount my logic with real mechanical engineering facts that shows me wrong. I'm willing to get an education.


Just for fun I tried stacking some ammo to simulate your point. Results, you dead on. The taper causes the rake angle to change as shells are added to the magazine. So much so that the follower cannot compensate.
The mod to sand the follower certainly helps tip the nose up a bit, but it's not the whole solution. To solve the problem the follower needs to be able to compensate by rocking the nose up when the mag is fully loaded. Maybe they need a whole new follower design with a flat top like the promag and modified front and back legs on the follower to allow it to rock more, to compensate for the angle.

I'm tempted to protype an old style metal mag follower similiar to the one on my WW2 Walther PP.

[Tilos]

John222:
Thanks for the pic.

With the bottom round in the your stack parallel to the base plate, the fanning of the ammo is very aparent.

I would suggest adding the follower to the bottom of that stack, outside of the mag, this would shift the entire ammo stack "nose up" into the true operating position and minimize the ammo "fanning".

While your pic shows fanning, it does not show the ammo in the position it would be inside the mag with the follower.

Tilos

[FLBri]

Tilos, that's true, but it won't change the fact that there is a difference between the way the first round sits, to the way the last round sits ... because the follower never changes angle. I suppose, at best, it may situate the stack to a 'happy median' (or in some cases unhappy).

[John222]

Some ammo casings have less taper than others. I originally had a problem with my 1940 Walther PP with ammo like Remmington and Winchester. Too much taper and they wouldn't stack correctly. In this case, the solution was to switch to Fiocchi. They lay perfect in the magazine. In the case of the Kahr, with only 6 rds you would think we could solve this problem.

[jocko]

Tilos, that's true, but it won't change the fact that there is a difference between the way the first round sits, to the way the last round sits ... because the follower never changes angle. I suppose, at best, it may situate the stack to a 'happy median' (or in some cases unhappy).

possaby it be also the magazine spring pressure on the first round compared to the last round and possably the first round is now not sitting on the follower but on the second round, giving different angles between first and last round.:third:

I try not to study the magazines/bullet/follower relationship to much if my gun goes bang every time. I guess for me if it is not broke I don't fix it. YMMV

[Tilos]

FLBri:

Correct, the angle doesn't change, round to round when fired, but by extending the follower contact towards the front, by sanding, fanning DOWN of the stack is minimized.

The extension of the follower, front and back, down into the mag is what keeps the angle of the follower constant from the 1st round fired to the last.

John, in my view, "some ammo casings have less taper than others" is simply wrong as all same caliber ammo is made to chamber standards.

Experts have spent their entire careers designing mags and we tweek them, but often the results are less functional.

The redesign of a follower requires a new mold which is a big expense and any secondary machining of the existing design can only remove material, not add any.

Tilos

[jocko]

oh I would suspect alot of these ammo casing dies could be off a few thousands + or -(*even different factory brass) but that should not effect feeding. These are not pocket watches, built in tolerances are takenin to accord . We seel every once in awhile inside mikng of the chambers and they can be off a few thousandes between two exact barrels. Really IMO doesn'tmean keitgher one is bad or good. It if works OK, consider it good, if not consider it bad and proceed to get it fixed. and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[skiflydive]

Just a little different thought...nobody ever talks about the "ceiling" of the spring cavity in the follower. To me...(a manufacturer of stuff) it would be fun to measure the heights of the internal dimensions of the cavity. If it has a lot of variability wouldn't that affect the pressure the spring applies front vs back of the follower. Variability in the angle of the last coil of the spring would do the same thing

[jocko]

also not sure this magaazine thing is AN EXACT SCIENCE EITHER.

[John222]

also not sure this magaazine thing is AN EXACT SCIENCE EITHER.


I think they just take a "similar to" approach. They find something similiar and scale it to fit.

Have to disagree with Tilos. As an engineer I can say that you have good engineers and you have lazy engineers. And this mag is a good example of a lazy engineering job. And yes, to redesign this plastic mag and go into production you would need a new injection mold. But to prototype one from nylon you only need a bandsaw and a file. Or I could go old school and make it from metal. Just 1/8" thick steel the width of the mag and 2 right angle bends for the guide legs.

[Tilos]

John222:
I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with, I never said anything about prototyping a new follower from nylon or metal.
And even after the prototype process and testing, a new mold($$$) still needs to be made.

I said modifying the existing follower design, as a typical gun owner, we can only REMOVE material.

I wouldn't say lazy engineers, but perhaps less talented, and many spend their careers tweeking someone elses break through patentable design (I have 2).

Cheers:yo:
Tilos

I'm done with this thread and give anyone else the last word

[jocko]

I think they just take a "similar to" approach. They find something similiar and scale it to fit.

Have to disagree with Tilos. As an engineer I can say that you have good engineers and you have lazy engineers. And this mag is a good example of a lazy engineering job. And yes, to redesign this plastic mag and go into production you would need a new injection mold. But to prototype one from nylon you only need a bandsaw and a file. Or I could go old school and make it from metal. Just 1/8" thick steel the width of the mag and 2 right angle bends for the guide legs.

should just do this and prove to yourself it can be done with perfection. 98% of us are not engineers and there are many titles of engineers to, some who cannot make a peanut butter sandwich without reading te directions on the jar and some who can make a PC with their eyes closed. My son is a Rose Hulman mechancial engineer that I truly would not trust in building a PC, nor would he:banplease:

U make a good one that works and eliminates all the supposed issues that kahr mags give, I can assure you, this forum will back u 100% with orders.

[John222]

I'll take a stab at it over the winter. It looks to me that the barrel side of the follower needs to be able to tilt up another 10 degrees when the mag is full. However, when the mag is full the follower is almost fully depressed, not leaving much room to work with.

[jimsea]

a follow up video shot today........

http://youtu.be/WYlA4BouR-g

[kahrnut1]

if you put the mag spring on 9 & 40 mags into the follower without tension the sping in one direction centers in the mag. if you swap ends with the spring it touches the back of the mag i have always put the springs in with the end that centers in mag against the folower. should they be the other way. is this a effort by kahr to change pressure on follower.

[John222]

a follow up video shot today........

http://youtu.be/WYlA4BouR-g


Nice!

[dean1818]

a follow up video shot today........

http://youtu.be/WYlA4BouR-g

Great comparison

[Rodenmg]

OK folks, here's how I did it (it's not a "how to do it", so proceed with caution and at your own risk if decide to attempt something similar:yo:)So for now, Greg

I just did this modification to one of the mags for my CW9 and It worked fantastic. I can now hand cycle the slide as slowly as I want and it will feed the first round with no nose-dive. And this is with hollow points. I plan to shoot it some before doing the rest of my mags just to be sure there are no negative side effects. For now I'm a very happy camper! :)

P.S. Makes me wonder why they don't come this way. :confused:

[LDM]

I have made the modification to the ramp described in this post and believe it has helped function for my PM9.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried the Wolff 5% extra power magazine springs?

Recently tried the Wolff extra power recoil spring, which if memory serves Jocko endorsed. Noticed immediately that my PM9 feeds with more "authority", for lack of a better word.

Between modifying the ramp and the extra power recoil spring, I think I am seeing better function all around.

[center_mass]

I have 2 mags for my CM9 (one 6rd and one 7rd)....today I thought I'd give this a try. So far I only did it to one of them, until I can take it out and shoot to test everything.

So I started with the 7rd. I sanded it down to match the pictures in this thread, but it still didn't work....so, I swapped the followers by putting the "modified" follower into the 6 rd mag. That one worked pretty good! Still has a slight nose dive, but I was still able to ride the slide forward and chamber the round without any problem. May need to sand a little more.

Not sure why it works in the 6rd, but not in the 7rd...

[flccw45]

To all CM9 owners having racking the first round problem (most of us), like me, I have a solution for us all. I think I've cracked the code. Here's what you should do: disassemble 6-round magazine, hold magazine spring at each end, and slowly, streeeeeech it out a good 2-3 inches at each end, reassemble, try it out, and...wallahhh!!! Noticed also the 6th round when pushed down, it pops back up.

Alternate solution: If you have a 7-round magazine, take the spring off it and use it on the 6 rounder...caveat is you can only use 6 rounds.
Another possible solution (LDM had mentioned this on his post): Use 6-round Wolff spring that's 5% stronger than the stock spring. Haven't tried this yet.

Let me know if it works for you...it does to me.

[Dirt doc]

I picked up a new PM45 on Thursday and it jams about 2/3 of the time when I load the first round by releasing the slide stop. The base of the round gets caught under the stripper bar unless I position it 1/32 inch forward in the magazine. It loads 100% when I pull the slide back and sling shot it. Go figure. I'll see how it loads once I have the break in completed.

I shot it a little today but it was seven degrees and the wind was blowing. I only got 35 rounds through it. I just used the sling shot load at the range and it cycled perfectly. Warmer days are coming so we'll see if a couple hundred rounds changes anything.

[gb6491]

I picked up a new PM45 on Thursday and it jams about 2/3 of the time when I load the first round by releasing the slide stop. The base of the round gets caught under the stripper bar unless I position it 1/32 inch forward in the magazine. ...
Dirt doc,
You might want to give this a look: http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=15671&postcount=4
Regards,
Greg

[Dirt doc]

Yep that looks like the problem.

Thanks for the link.

[deanp1964]

I know it has been said before, by myself as well, but dang Kahr folks, I'd gladly pay an extra $50/$100 if you could just get this stuff correct FROM the factory to begin with.

(now before all the Kahr folks-huggers start bashing me again, please know that I own a PM9 and a PM45 that I carry regularly and love the uniqueness in design that they have to allow comfortable carry)

These threads prove that the fixes exist. Kahr out to put them in place in the original fabrication.

[LDM]

Have Wolff +5% springs for 6 round and 7 round mags on order. Not in yet.
Will advise.

[Dirt doc]

Dean:

I was thinking the same thing. I now also have a PM9 and a PM45. The PM9 has been perfect since the first round. I'm disappointed that I have to mess with a problem that seems to have been known for a while. I haven't decided yet if I'm going to try to fix this or let Kahr do it. I'll see how the break in goes and see if there are any other issues for Kahr to address.

[Tilos]

dean:
$50-$100 would only buy about 10 seconds of labor in Mass.:(:):eek:.

[Deano]

Greg,

This is Yogi's little brother from the LCP forum. I wanted to thank you for posting this. I've had the horrible nosedive problem with both my 7 round mags. Today I performed this mod to my followers and went to the range. Fired 12 mags of FMJ and HP ammo (6 apiece) and not a single jam. Before they would jam EVERY time.

I hope the good folks at kahr will sit up and take notice, change this one simple design flaw, and give us mags that work straight from the factory. (I also think the spring is too weak on the 7 rounders)

Again, thanks for the time you took to post this. I am thrilled to finally have three mags that are trustworthy.

[jocko]

this issue seems more prevelant in the kahr 45's than any other caliber...

[BEARDOG]

Greg,

This is Yogi's little brother from the LCP forum. I wanted to thank you for posting this. I've had the horrible nosedive problem with both my 7 round mags. Today I performed this mod to my followers and went to the range. Fired 12 mags of FMJ and HP ammo (6 apiece) and not a single jam. Before they would jam EVERY time.

I hope the good folks at kahr will sit up and take notice, change this one simple design flaw, and give us mags that work straight from the factory. (I also think the spring is too weak on the 7 rounders)

Again, thanks for the time you took to post this. I am thrilled to finally have three mags that are trustworthy.

Hi Deano,
That is great news!

Just so we don't confuse Greg:D... It is me that has been talking with your brother Yogi about your CM9 issues. Greg is the one to thank for this mod info, my contribution is small but is here. http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=73196&postcount=42

I am glad that it help this 2nd rd jamming problem for you as it was just a theory really when I said to try it for that, Good to know that it can also help with jamming issues as well.

I am glad I could help and if you have any other questions just ask on the forum, or PM me. And as a new forum member and Kahr owner an FYI, Greg is one to listen to, He knows his stuff;)

[Deano]

Hi Deano,
That is great news!

Just so we don't confuse Greg:D... It is me that has been talking with your brother Yogi about your CM9 issues. Greg is the one to thank for this mod info, my contribution is small but is here. http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=73196&postcount=42

I am glad that it help this 2nd rd jamming problem for you as it was just a theory really when I said to try it for that, Good to know that it can also help with jamming issues as well.

I am glad I could help and if you have any other questions just ask on the forum, or PM me. And as a new forum member and Kahr owner an FYI, Greg is one to listen to, He knows his stuff;)

Ahhhhh. OK, pardon the confusion.
Greg, thanks for the mod
Scott, thanks for steering me in the right direction

[Bald Baron]

Just did the mod on my two seven round CW9 mags. Now I can slowly hand rack the first round and all the other rounds in the magazine. This will make range time even more pleasant and more importantly, it will make clearing a malfunction faster. Thanks Greg and everyone else who helped post this mod.:yo:

[SC Tiger]

When I first got mine it was difficult to chamber the first round, but if you truly "slingshot" it then it would do it. Now (after about 500 rounds) it is a lot better. Speer JHP will hesitate for a second and then chamber even if you ride the slide.

[DKD]

Damn,

I just started a thread about the same exact problem I was having with my new P380. It won't even slide stop load or hand rack with the first two rounds with Gold Dots or Silver Tips. I might have to try the mag follower modification. The standard mags will only function properly with FMJ and a more pronounced tapered Hollow Point design bullet. I also noticed the diference in the angle of the top round of a fully loaded mag vs the third through last round.
I think that this might just work.

[midmo]

if i do this on a cw 40 will it work (in theory)?

[frbejarano]

Damn,

I just started a thread about the same exact problem I was having with my new P380. It won't even slide stop load or hand rack with the first two rounds with Gold Dots or Silver Tips. I might have to try the mag follower modification. The standard mags will only function properly with FMJ and a more pronounced tapered Hollow Point design bullet. I also noticed the diference in the angle of the top round of a fully loaded mag vs the third through last round.
I think that this might just work.

DKD will you let us know how it goes if you do this mod to your p380? Thanks

[steveschu]

I have no problem feeding a live round with my K9 by racking the slide even when brand new. Just make sure to pull the slide all the way back until it can go back no further. You can hear the noise of the barrel hit the cam surface. One of the easiest ways to rack it is to grasp the slide with the thumb and forefinger of the nonshooting hand. Push the shooting hand forward as far as possible and release the slide to chamber a cartridge. Because of the heavy recoil spring, it is easier to work the slide by pushing forward on the frame than by pulling back on the slide.
BTW, my K9 no longer has issue with premature slide lock and the recoil is softer with new slide stop, and recoil spring that Kahr sent me.

The rearward slide distance of my P380 is exactly the distance of the slide stop. Of course any Kahr pistol can be armed using the slingshot method without modification IF the slide is pulled rearward EXACTLY as far back as it will go and released. Difficult to do consistently with stiff springs.

[david8613]

I wanted to ask is everyone doing this mod? looks interesting...

[DKD]

For what it's worth I did do the follower modification on all three of my P380 magazines. It definately did reduce the angle of the top rounds, which in turn allowed for the top rounds to feed more smoothly. I can even hand rack the slide when I couldn't prior to the modification. The modification is even allowing the slide stop loading of the top round with Speer Gold Dots, which it absolutley would not due prior and would jam every time.
I problabaly could have saned a little more than I did, but it is easy enough to remove a bit more rather tha over do it to start with in the first go around. I am going to run another hundre or so rounds before a do any further sanding. I feel with more rounds down range and with the modification will make a major improvement to the cycling & smoothing out of the pistol.

[7shot]

a quick video of my results using Greg's mod.............

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9729


Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?

I've had my K9 since March and have had no issues sling shotting the slide when clambering a round. This is the only way I've ever done it on any simi-auto I've owned. But the K9 is also the smallest auto I ever owned!

[7shot]

Just wondering if there is any interest in a modification to the Kahr 9mm follower that makes chambering a round via the "slingshot method" much easier and consistent (IMO, enough so that they could rewrite the manual). It also seems to hold the top round better and might prevent loss of the round during loose pocket carry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y12XanmHYa4
Regards,
Greg

Modification detailed in post #12
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.


Hey Greg, I was wondering if anyone at Kaur has added any imput on either yours or other members changes to there mags?

[manalive]

OK--call me ignorant or a newbie, but what is Slingshoting? I read all the posts and nowhere--that I could find--was it ever explained. Can someone enlighten me? Thanks!

[manalive]

OK--I watched a video and now know what the term "slingshot" means. I've been doing this for 25 years with my semi-auto's--just didn't know what it was called. :-)

[JFootin]

You pinch the slide, pull it back and let go. If you think about the action, it is very similar to the action taken when drawing back and releasing a slingshot - thus the origin of the term. Although with the tough Kahr recoil springs an overhand method sometimes works better.

[wildmanjeff]

new to the forum, bought a Kahr PM9 around 12/2012 and love it. I took it shooting Win white box 115gr FMJ and functioned flawlessly even tried racking the slide to chamber instead of slidestop to see how would function and that worked great with my firearm as well.
I expected heavier recoil than it has, and I am very impressed with the trigger and quality of the gun.

[xsailer]

gb6491,
A question please that I may have overlooked within the thread:
Do you recommend the bevel (both sides) along the length of the follower be added back to the area removed by sanding off .06 of the rails?

I just did the mod on 3 6rd and 1 7rd Kahr magazines with relative ease. Must be careful to remove evenly and parallel to surface being removed. I've by hand run rds thru all mags and seems to work fine. I slow chambered both before and after mod and the mod definitely helps. Could not do it before mod.
I might mention, cover the your hands with a towel when removing the magazine spring cover and its inside retainer as this will save 45 mins and many cuss words finding the DAMN thing.

Very informative and apparently helpful this thread. Thank you and the others for spending the time to inform.

bob

[gb6491]

gb6491,
A question please that I may have overlooked within the thread:
Do you recommend the bevel (both sides) along the length of the follower be added back to the area removed by sanding off .06 of the rails?

I just did the mod on 3 6rd and 1 7rd Kahr magazines with relative ease. Must be careful to remove evenly and parallel to surface being removed. I've by hand run rds thru all mags and seems to work fine. I slow chambered both before and after mod and the mod definitely helps. Could not do it before mod.
I might mention, cover the your hands with a towel when removing the magazine spring cover and its inside retainer as this will save 45 mins and many cuss words finding the DAMN thing.

Very informative and apparently helpful this thread. Thank you and the others for spending the time to inform.

bob
Bob,
That's a good point and probably wasn't mentioned before. While I'm not sure if it matters, I did eventually put small bevels on (or at least rounded) those edges on my modified followers.
Regards,
Greg

[xsailer]

I think I will add a bevel back on the follower. It would allow the follower to travel up and be better captured by the magazine case. I think it might raise approx. .040.

[xsailer]

For the record I did add the bevel back on the follower on all my magazines and ran thru 3 sets on two of the mags. No problem and btw the follower did come up from the spring pressure to rest at the top edge of the steel mag.

[kahrl]

gb6491,
A question please that I may have overlooked within the thread:
Do you recommend the bevel (both sides) along the length of the follower be added back to the area removed by sanding off .06 of the rails?

I just did the mod on 3 6rd and 1 7rd Kahr magazines with relative ease. Must be careful to remove evenly and parallel to surface being removed. I've by hand run rds thru all mags and seems to work fine. I slow chambered both before and after mod and the mod definitely helps. Could not do it before mod.
I might mention, cover the your hands with a towel when removing the magazine spring cover and its inside retainer as this will save 45 mins and many cuss words finding the DAMN thing.

Very informative and apparently helpful this thread. Thank you and the others for spending the time to inform.

bob
this is exactly what i did, and it works perfectly. now, if only i could figure out my fail-to-reset problem...

[xsailer]

Kahr1,
I found it near impossible to be exact with the parallel removal of material. That being said doing it by hand is not difficult to do it's just difficult to remove material as machine would. Several folks now, including me and now you, have found after they did it and in spite of the probable inaccuracy, the action works better. So there must be a tolerance one way or the other that is acceptable.

I don't understand your comment "fail-to-reset problem..."

[kahrl]

Kahr1,
I found it near impossible to be exact with the parallel removal of material. That being said doing it by hand is not difficult to do it's just difficult to remove material as machine would. Several folks now, including me and now you, have found after they did it and in spite of the probable inaccuracy, the action works better. So there must be a tolerance one way or the other that is acceptable.

I don't understand your comment "fail-to-reset problem..."
last time out, after about a hundred rounds, it failed to reset- a major problem for a self defense weapon. i got some valuable input from another member, and i should be able to get it handled. i prefer fixing these things myself, as i'm the only one i trust.

[davec]

I'm interested too ..

[Badbot]

I just got the CM45 and have been reading up on all the fixes here in the forum.
This mod is totally reversible!
I installed the chip McCormick follower and spring reusing the original base plate assembly.

this change should fix early mag drop, first round tipping, failure to fully chamber.

1 remove the base plate, spring, follower.
2 get the spring and follower.
check that the follower slides from top to bottom freely I had to lightly stone the sides of the follower for clearance.
the follower has a hook to catch the looped end of the spring.
3 place the follower on top of the looped end of the spring.
put the two into the mag. then push the tail of the spring in all the way, put original base inside with the button facing out, push it in and slide the outer base on to the lips and slide on until it clicks on to the inner button.

some times when empty the follower tips forward but this has not affected function. inserting the first round moves it back where it belongs.
I slow chambered no problem!
no nose dives!
no mag drops!
no grinding mag lips!
Excellent slide lock on empty!

I have the 5 round mag and I got 2 7 rounders' for reloading.
If I empty the first mag my thinking is that I want all the ammo I can get.

the only new issue with the modified magazines is that they all now hold one round more.
the 5 now holds 6, the 7 mow hold 8. so 1+ 6+ 8+ 8+ = 23 not bad for CCW.

The following links are so you can see what I used. you can shop around chip has these packaged in 1, 4, 10 packs with prices dropping as the count goes up.

I had some old mags with springs and followers in them from when I played IPSC. so I just pulled the parts and tried them in the Kahr mags.

spring,
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/621239/chip-mccormick-shooting-star-magazine-spring-1911-government-commander-45-acp-8-round (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/621239/chip-mccormick-shooting-star-magazine-spring-1911-government-commander-45-acp-8-round)

follower,
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/427891/chip-mccormick-shooting-star-replacement-magazine-follower-1911-45-acp (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/427891/chip-mccormick-shooting-star-replacement-magazine-follower-1911-45-acp)

[topgun1953]

I have the 5 round mag and I got 2 7 rounders' for reloading.
If I empty the first mag my thinking is that I want all the ammo I can get.

the only new issue with the modified magazines is that they all now hold one round more.
the 5 now holds 6, the 7 mow hold 8. so 1+ 6+ 8+ 8+ = 23 not bad for CCW.

The following links are so you can see what I used. you can shop around chip has these packaged in 1, 4, 10 packs with prices dropping as the count goes up.

I had some old mags with springs and followers in them from when I played IPSC. so I just pulled the parts and tried them in the Kahr mags.



Interesting. Did you use the same spring in both the 5 and 7 round mags?