bad outing with my PM45.....

[JERRY]

background.....i bought this gun used, it barely looked used at all. the shop told me the cop who sold it to them. the cop is in an adjacent agency to mine so i was able to speak with him. he stated that he got the gun as a back up and off duty piece but after firing two magazines (10) decided it was too much for him to handle.

to day i fired 100 rounds of wwb fmj 230gr. at my 8" steel plate from 7 and 15 yards. i oiled the slide rails, the barrel hood, the recoils spring rod, and the barrel o/d prior to shooting.

one magazine already had cracks on the backside feed lips so i didnt take pix of those as they are on here from others...(seems standard for this substandard magazine) well after 100 rounds i found the other magazine developed cracks in the same place as well, though not as obvious.

i had 16 malfunctions total. one was clearly ammo related as i examined the bullet and found that the case was bell mouthed which caused a bulge in the brass....locked up gun tighter than a drum....pix show the gun with this out of battery jam....took a bit to free it but i was able to do so and tossed that round.

the rest of the malfunctions varied from: (1) the slide locking back with ammo still in the magazine (i was carefull of my thumb placement and the slide was held back by the round still in the mag not the slide lock so that wasnt the cause) (2) the typical failure to feed with the round half way in the chamber and halfway in the magazine (3) failure to return to full battery requiering a push on the back of the slide.

ive sent both cracked magazines back to Kahr today with a note about the cracks on the back of the feed lips. so now i have a single shot (sometimes anyway) gun until i get new magazines to try her out again.

the front of the mag followers are chewed up from this outing, they were fine at first though. also accuracy was pretty good with only a 3 misses from 15 yards during double taps (how far off i dont know, its only an 8" plate). im sure that was my fault as this gun was a tack driver at 7 yards.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/765a928dd3da__1347636089000.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/2a5d30a88027__1347636143000.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/9d4e3b7e9053__1347638203000.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/1fd40ee9fa69__1347638260000.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/51184a888d34__1347636819000.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/83ed23dd2615__1347636915000.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/fa05f10cd903__1347636980000.jpg

[JERRY]

magazine followers front chewed up...sorry for cell phone pix.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/763a42e522de__1347639429000.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/5c30dbc684a6__1347639632000.jpg

[JERRY]

blowing off some steam......

for the price i paid for this so far POS i could have gotten another Glock 26 with night sights, the same size package, twice the ammo on tap, and reliablity out of the box......

now, i will wait for my two free replacement magazines from Kahr and run another 100 rounds through this PM45 before i comment on this particular gun again.

i will give it a good cleaning and oil up before the next outing. after another 100 rounds of fmj (easiest to digest supposably) i will wipe it down, bore brush it real quick, add a drop of oil to the essencials, then fire another 50 rounds....that should do it.....im already at the cost of night sights for the gun just in ammo for the break in period......

does anybody know.....does Kahr actually test fire these guns before they leave the factory of do they just fire one shot for the police requierment of a piece of brass some states have?

[yqtszhj]

Except for the slide locking back I would say the other issues sound like mag issues to me based on my cw45.

When you get the new mags I would say to make sure that the feed lips that hold the top round of each mag in place are smooth, and not sharp. I smoothed mine with 600 grit sand paper. After that I could slow cycle the slide and every round would go right in. Also after the first 200 rounds I have not had one problem.

Give it one more chance.

[JERRY]

so the factory magazines on this $600 gun are suspect.....and the next new set of factory magazines you think i will have to tinker with to make right?

my k9 and mk9 were good guns over a decade ago, not one malfunction out of the box. the PM9 i got used hasnt bobbled once in the 200 + rounds ive put through it....

me thinks i unwittedly turned myself into a beta tester for Kahr....i mean im buying test ammo for their gun. not defense ammo, not even target ammo, but 200 or more rounds of test ammo.

i will give a gun glowing reviews if it performs well, and i will crap on one if it performs poorly......im not brand loyal, im not a fan boy, im a father, a husband, a cop...i spend $600 on a gun it should work as designed with little effort on my part.

is this a kel-tec or not?

[bonjorno2]

you just got a bad one i think... kahr's magazines suck and they need to step it up there! You are going throught growing pains with it because it was used, but really it was new if he shot less than a box of ammo... It will work for you just keep at it and if you don't want to struggle anymore someone will take it off your hands at a decent price! I'd never let another leo down if I knew there was a problem... bad karma imo!

[JERRY]

hell, 10 rounds (two magazines) is still new in my unofficial book, not for selling but in all other practical senses.....

its odd, id fire two magazines through without a hitch, then id get a malfunction every other round for the next 10......no rhyme or reason as to which magazine i used either....

[yqtszhj]

so the factory magazines on this $600 gun are suspect.....and the next new set of factory magazines you think i will have to tinker with to make right?


Quite possibly..... I know what you're thinking. :rolleyes:

I will say after my first 200 rounds mine smoothed out. I admit though I did have a bad trigger reset issue I had to fix too..

[JERRY]

after 250 rounds i will call Kahr and ask for a shipping lable and for them to fix their bastard....IF the gun doesnt work itself out.....ive never had a gun malfunction so much in so few rounds......until now.

[CJB]

Maybe its the pictures, but the followers don't look chewed up to me. They look like the molding was a little uneven... is it even supposed to be even? And it looks like normal sort of rubbing you'd have on the followers, until they're all smoothed out.

Couple of cracks on the back of the mags lips. Dunno what goes on there. It IS a stress point for all magazines. You see it a lot on older Colt 1911 mags, as they were welded using a really bad setup, then sanded flat. Production would see the sanding thin the metal at the lips, and cracks would form. I've had Browning HP mags and Colt and Randall, and .. most every mag out there for the 1911 crack at that spot.

So far, I've got seven PM45 magazines, to feed two PM45's. No cracks, and I check them every time I shoot, and afterward.

My guess is that the pistol still needs some unlimbering, that you got some bum mags which didn't help things at all, and once you get new mags, and shoot the pistol some more, it will smooth out for you.

I've always said - I dont mind buying a clean used Kahr, because some other guy paid for all that ammo to break it in. The issue comes into play, when its used, but not broken in! That can be a frustration on many levels. Is it the gun, ammo, me, the guy who sold it... what?

Stick with things. Small 45s and some shooters don't mix, but thats a rare thing - most likely things will smooth out.

[wyntrout]

The weld seam in the middle back of the magazines is normal... not welded all the way to the top. No failures have been reported there, but the upper corners on the rear have split. There have definitely been some problems with the folded-stainless corners on the upper rear.

MY PM45 started splitting those portions badly, so much that all but one of my six different mags and types of mags purchased at different times... were splitting badly and allowing very sloppy movement of the mags inside the mag well.

Kahr was able to reproduce that in testing and ONLY a new frame would stop the magazine destruction. They replaced all six mags as well as the frame and a bunch of other parts. But that was my "Franken-Boomer" and a rare case.

The recoil assembly nut on the front of the rod flew off at the range and another day the slide lock spring (#2) broke in half! All were promptly replaced by Kahr after emails with pictures were sent.

My PM45 shoots great and I can hold it any old way again... almost impossible to induce "limp wrist" malfunctions!

Some have had the top rear of the magazine separate as the last picture of someone else's mag.

Wynn:)

[les strat]

Honestly, I wouldn't be happy about that either. I don't think I could be confident EDC-ing something that has shown severe issues. Once confidence is lost, it's a safe queen or most often sold. That's just me. I have no brand loyalty when it comes to reliability. I won't "work towards" making something reliable.

I think you would love a G30 if you are wanting a .45.

[CJB]

I'm just sayin Colt had an issue from sanding down the welds in a very poor manner.

Kahr uses a nicer weld job, modern technology on theirs, but you still get stress relief problems at those corners. Could be they need to anneal the metal a bit? Dunno.

[JERRY]

Before anyone else gets counciled.....my gun has only has 110 rounds through it and 100 rounds i know had a cracked magazine in the rotation.....to be fair i will re-evaluate once the replacement magazines come in.

I will degrease and thoroughly clean the gun then relube it per the manual. I will use two manufactures of fmj; federal and winchester.

Im really hoping i was just the victim of a tight gun; as i really like the pm45 concept.

[CJB]

Neither Fed nor Win WWB are great... but they'll get the break in job done sooner or later. They're both a little underpowered as things go. Ok in 1911's, a little lacking on a new Kahr PM45.

I used WWB for my break in. Cheep! But... I did have problems, that eventually worked clear.

[JERRY]

Neither Fed nor Win WWB are great... but they'll get the break in job done sooner or later. They're both a little underpowered as things go. Ok in 1911's, a little lacking on a new Kahr PM45.

I used WWB for my break in. Cheep! But... I did have problems, that eventually worked clear.


to be fair im using FMJ for the break in as its usually a lot easier for a new gun to digest vs. hollow points.

what readily off the shelf FMJ would you recommend that is more powerfull for break in? remington? in know the steel cased Tul ammo is weaker than the wwb and fed champion. im trying to stay with the big three, name brands, not boutique or "brand X" ammo.

[Bawanna]

I think I used Speer Lawman breaking mine in but as you say any name brand FMJ will work.

I would not shoot steel case Tula or any of that other crap EVER in any of my guns.

[JERRY]

I WAS ABSTAINING FROM CCI BLAZER AS WELL AS ITS ALUMINUM CASED....

Tul Ammo works well in all of my AKs, SKSs, 9mms and 45acps though i havent tried it any of my PM guns. the commie block guns were designed around the steel cased ammo though.....not so with modern handguns made here.

[wyntrout]

I used mostly Aluminum-cased Blazer 230-gr FMJ for break in. I also used Wolf and Remington UMC on my first two trips to the range with the PM45. The second was after a trip to Kahr for the bevel.

On my first trip to the range with the PM45 I had a problem just trying to chamber a round. Now we know the problem was no bevel on the lower leading edge of the slide's breech face... the stripper. With the slide locked back and when a loaded magazine is inserted, the top cartridge's rim would catch under the leading edge of the "stripper". With a bevel, the stripper pushes on the rim of the cartridge forcing the magazine forward a bit and the cartridge can slide up in front of the breech face and then be pushed forward into the chamber.

I only use standard pressure 230-grain bullets in my .45's.

The Blazer was good, the Wolf smokier and stinkier than the Remington UMC. The Golden Sabers and Bonded Golden Sabers were definitely hotter. I later had to switch to Gold Dots because I couldn't get the Bonded GS any more. I use the Short Barrel GD's in my PM45 now, and GDs or Bonded GS in the longer barreled .45's.

I finally used up all of the Wolf ammo and use whatever brass cased FMJ is the cheapest. I use S&B for everything. I also use MFS, Fiocchi, and Herters... all the brass cased versions are made by Fiocchi at Ozark, MO, so it's American made and I can usually find a good deal on case lots... below $15 a box of 50 delivered. You have to look and be ready to buy when you hear about GOOD deals. I sign up for email alerts from all of the good dealers.

Wynn:)

[yqtszhj]

Before anyone else gets counciled.....my gun has only has 110 rounds through it and 100 rounds i know had a cracked magazine in the rotation.....to be fair i will re-evaluate once the replacement magazines come in.

I will degrease and thoroughly clean the gun then relube it per the manual. I will use two manufactures of fmj; federal and winchester.

Im really hoping i was just the victim of a tight gun; as i really like the pm45 concept.

I'm counting on it being good for you. Hang in there.

[Bawanna]

In hindsight I'm pretty sure I used aluminum cased Blazer too now that I think in it. I've shot lots of the Lawman Speer as well.

[JERRY]

i used mostly aluminum-cased blazer 230-gr fmj for break in. I also used wolf and remington umc on my first two trips to the range with the pm45. The second was after a trip to kahr for the bevel.

On my first trip to the range with the pm45 i had a problem just trying to chamber a round. Now we know the problem was no bevel on the lower leading edge of the slide's breech face... The stripper. With the slide locked back and when a loaded magazine is inserted, the top cartridge's rim would catch under the leading edge of the "stripper". With a bevel, the stripper pushes on the rim of the cartridge forcing the magazine forward a bit and the cartridge can slide up in front of the breech face and then be pushed forward into the chamber.

I only use standard pressure 230-grain bullets in my .45's.

The blazer was good, the wolf smokier and stinkier than the remington umc. The golden sabers and bonded golden sabers were definitely hotter. I later had to switch to gold dots because i couldn't get the bonded gs any more. I use the short barrel gd's in my pm45 now, and gds or bonded gs in the longer barreled .45's.

I finally used up all of the wolf ammo and use whatever brass cased fmj is the cheapest. I use s&b for everything. I also use mfs, fiocchi, and herters... All the brass cased versions are made by fiocchi at ozark, mo, so it's american made and i can usually find a good deal on case lots... Below $15 a box of 50 delivered. You have to look and be ready to buy when you hear about good deals. I sign up for email alerts from all of the good dealers.

Wynn:)

this was the majority of my stoppages! What is this bevel you speak of? What does the factory have to do to the gun? Is this a manufacturing flaw with a factory modification to fix? An oversight? Is it something i can do myself with a jeweler's file?

Can you post before and after pix of this fix?

[Bawanna]

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14749&highlight=bevel

See post number 4. It shows the bevel at the front of the stripper.

As long as the round is coming up in front your good to go with or without bevel. If they come up underneath and the slide rides over the bevel is the cure.
My PM has very little bevel, just radiused a bit.

[wyntrout]

The lower leading edge of the breech face is the "stripper". With the slide locked back and a loaded magazine is inserted, the rim of the top cartridge in the magazine gets caught under the edge of the UNBEVELED breech face. With a proper bevel, the cartridge is pushed a bit forward and magazine moves forward a bit, resulting in the breech face being BEHIND the cartridge. Then with slide release the cartridge is chambered.

If you do a proper sling shot rack, this gets the breech face or stripper behind the cartridge without the bevel, but I was trying to chamber a round as Kahr suggested in the manual.

Pix of before and after the bevel and what happened with no bevel. Sometimes you could force the slide forward with the "stripper" just sliding over the cartridge and skinning the top of the round... empty chamber. With my thumb on the top of the slide and pressing up hard with my fingers to seat the magazine, it was possible to "scrunch" the care rim up past the breech face and chamber the first round... then the rest of the magazine would fire okay, as recoil carries the slide back further and allows the cartridges to rise in the magazine.

It's easy to file or stone the necessary bevel if you don't have one on your .45 Kahrs. The PM9 has plenty of GAP to let the cartridges rise without a bevel.

Wynn:)

[JERRY]

Mine does not have this bevel or radius......damn....if i knew this i could have fixed this instead of getting frustrated with wasting ammo....

[wyntrout]

Dang! We think that Kahr's are past this type of thing, but they pop up now and then. My experience was 2 1/2 years ago and several people had had problems and made their own bevels. I sent mine back to Kahr and they fixed it, but it's an easy fix and the bevel angle is not critical... whatever works. Maybe we need a picture page with stuff like this as a sticky so people can check their Kahrs at first.

I guess that you did have the "Notch" the half-moon cut out in the front "slot" for the recoil spring/guide rod?

I have to go over to the computer with all of the pictures.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

The notch is the half-moon missing from the cylindrical receiving part for the front of the guide rod and recoil assembly. The barrel moves up and down during firing... locking and unlocking... and the recoil spring needs some room to move... if it doesn't have that notch, it bangs into the metal and tries to make one. This throws off the timing of the action and causes malfunctions too.

Another thing to look for is enough room under the extractor claw for the cartridge rims to slide underneath and be retained through firing until ejection. Sometimes a bit of radiasing and polishing the part of the claw that the rim must slide by will help prevent those half-chambered rounds. My P40 did that... just the tiniest rearward pressure on the slide and the cartridge would click up into place and chamber easily as I let the slide go.

Just one more thing to look for. I've experienced all of these common problems.

These are pictures of my PM9 and it has a ROBUST notch... where my PM45's was pretty wimpy with thin metal. I opened it up a bit more.

Wynn:)

[JERRY]

Im going to take some pix of my gun showing these areas.....after i post them you can tell me what i need to do to make it run right.

CELL PHONE PIX NO GOOD. BUT I WAS ABLE TO JUST NOW KNOCK DOWN THE SHARP EDGE OF THE PICK UP WHERE YOU GUYS HAVE A BEVEL.

I WILL HAVE TO GET A PROPER JEWELR'S FILE AND HONING STONE TO DO THIS RIGHT. FOR NOW I HAVE A SMOOTH BLUNTED RADIUS WHERE IT WAS ONCE SHARP, NOTHING AS DRAMATIC AS YOUR PIC THOUGH.

ALSO, THANKS FOR THAT LINK....MY GUN HAS A WAYS TO GO YET.

[wyntrout]

Here's a link... recently moved to the Newcomers sub forum... a must read for the .45 Kahrs!

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14749

It addresses some of the issues you've had... and the ones I mentioned. We need more links to the links, I guess!

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Mine does not have this bevel or radius......damn....if i knew this i could have fixed this instead of getting frustrated with wasting ammo....

With the slide locked back when you insert the magazine are the rounds under the stripper or coming up in front? You may not need the bevel but it sounds like maybe you do.

[JERRY]

With the slide locked back when you insert the magazine are the rounds under the stripper or coming up in front? You may not need the bevel but it sounds like maybe you do.

in my "new to me PM45" thread i made mention of having to seat the magazine with authority to get the top round to move infront of the breach face.....

maybe after i whittle the radius a bit more this wont be a proble....usps delivered my cracked magazines to Kahr today at 10:17 a.m. (est)...count down begins.

[wyntrout]

The PM9's don't need the bevel, but the .45's DO because they are compact and tight... not much room. ALMOST any 1911 mag will insert and maybe feed the Kahr .45's, but not many will do it reliably AND lock the slide open on empty magazine.

Wynn:)

[JERRY]

Monday will be a week since they recieved my cracked mags....hopefully i will have the new ones by then so i can hit the range tuesday.....

[jocko]

Patence is golden. Just sayin.

[JERRY]

just recieved my two replacement magazines, no cracks, they apear to be brand new not refirbs.

these new mags along with breaking (rounding) the edge of the underside of the breach face will hopefully give me better results.