First Range Outing W/P380..slide/FTF issues

[sventvkg]

I was running into some FTF issues but mostly when I first loaded the magazine and released the slide it didn't go all the way forward. I had to hit it forward to lock it. I think it was doing this throughout my shooting as well causing FTF's....Now..I cleaned and lubed up the gun as per the Kahr diagram here but the gun smith at the range/shop said he thinks it wasn't lubed enough. When I got home and broke the gun down, I noticed it was bone dry. Is that normal or did I not lube the gun liberally enough? To be fair, I cleaned and lubed it a week ago but didn't shot it until today. Should I have lubed it again before shooting?

Anyway, any insight into what could have caused at least 20 FTF issues in 200 rounds? The LEO I purchased the gun from said it was his carry backup gun and very reliable. 2 years old and 3-400 rounds through it. I doubt he would have carried this gun if it was malfunctioning...

Oh, I shot 3 different types of Ammo..Blazer TMJ, 6 rounds of Hornady Jhp-XTP (ran flawlessly) and 50 rounds of another brand I can't recall. Small box, red white and green..Common ammo sold even at the range...The Hornady magazine was fine but the FMJ stuff I had issues. Anyway......

Any insight?

[Cokeman]

Dry is not good. How are you releasing the slide? Slide release lever? Slingshot method?

[wyntrout]

Check to see if your extractor is working properly. I bought another P380 with the latest serial number at Shooters and It had a bad extractor. The claw was lying on the breech face and cartridges couldn't slide under it. I could get it to fire by palming the slide closed, or by using my thumb to push it into battery. The FTF got so bad that it finally dawned on me that the extractor wasn't grabbing the rim and the pistol was operating as a blowback and not always getting the fired case out by the time I decided to stop shooting.

The cartridge rim should slide up the breech face and under the extractor claw and the cartridge stay captured until extraction and ejection.

Here's my post:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12742&highlight=P380+extractor

I don't know if this is your problem. Radiusing, smoothing, and polishing the area of the "claw" where the cartridge rim slides under the claw... and the breech face area... can help with feeding, as will a little more polishing of the feed ramp and the chamber mouth.

Wynn:)

[sventvkg]

Dry is not good. How are you releasing the slide? Slide release lever? Slingshot method?

I know Dry is not good but I can't confirm it was dry when I fired it. I hadn't fired it but cleaned in lubed a week before. Did the oil dry up?? I have never had that happen before.

Load gun: Slide locked back. Insert magazine, press the slide release. I believe this is the way Kahr has said to do it, no?

[sventvkg]

Check to see if your extractor is working properly. I bought another P380 with the latest serial number at Shooters and It had a bad extractor. The claw was lying on the breech face and cartridges couldn't slide under it. I could get it to fire by palming the slide closed, or by using my thumb to push it into battery. The FTF got so bad that it finally dawned on me that the extractor wasn't grabbing the rim and the pistol was operating as a blowback and not always getting the fired case out by the time I decided to stop shooting.

The cartridge rim should slide up the breech face and under the extractor claw and the cartridge stay captured until extraction and ejection.

Here's my post:

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12742&highlight=P380+extractor

I don't know if this is your problem. Radiusing, smoothing, and polishing the area of the "claw" where the cartridge rim slides under the claw... and the breech face area... can help with feeding, as will a little more polishing of the feed ramp and the chamber mouth.

Wynn:)

I looked at your post. That level of technical gunsmithing goes a bit beyond my level of mechanical understanding however:( I cleaned and lubed the gun up and have Hornady Critical Defense rounds in 2 magazines and when I load a magazine and press the slide release it loads the first round prefectly into battery. I referenced your pics while checking out my gun and mine has the perfect clearance under the claw and it grabs the rounds.

I shot all my range ammo but I'm going to grab more and head out to the Range again in the next few days. I'll report back...Thanks!

[muggsy]

Until you get two hundred rounds through the gun run it wet. Kahr pistols are very tight when new. I'd recommend ball ammo for the break in. I used PMC Bronze FMJ ammo for the break-in with good success. Don't try to run more that one hundred rounds through the gun between cleaning and lube during the break-in period.

[sventvkg]

Until you get two hundred rounds through the gun run it wet. Kahr pistols are very tight when new. I'd recommend ball ammo for the break in. I used PMC Bronze FMJ ammo for the break-in with good success. Don't try to run more that one hundred rounds through the gun between cleaning and lube during the break-in period.

It had 2 years of regular use before I bought it used. the LEO I picked it up from broke it in and then some. I'll put some more rounds through it wet and then report back. Thanks.

[muggsy]

It had 2 years of regular use before I bought it used. the LEO I picked it up from broke it in and then some. I'll put some more rounds through it wet and then report back. Thanks.

If that's the case you might want to order a new recoil spring. By now the gun should be well broken in. I've been running Break-Free CLP as a lube.

[AjarnMichael]

My guess is different ammo. My P380 is ammo sensitive. The only cheap ammo I've found that works well so far is PMC. I recently ordered some Buffalo Barnes rounds to try with it. Hopefully they cycle through OK so they can be my carry round.

Again. I'd bet your gun just doesn't like ammo you're feeding it.

[Cokeman]

What cheap ammo hasn't worked?

[josp]

I would agree that a new recoil spring is in order. Can't hurt in any case. I find I like Tetra gun grease (lightly) on the rails, and rubbed around the barrel and other bearing surfaces. Mine has no issues running good defensive ammo, but will occasionally balk on a Tula, or WWB. Either way, I need to practice clearing a jam just in case.

[socialwork911]

good luck with your 380..i hope to get mine back soon
i just picked up super tech brake cleaner(is this OK to use?)(walmart, $2.99-big can-should last a long time)...non chlorinated, low VOC(what ever that means), dries fast, etc..to clean the striker channel...of course it will get a full cleaning and lube w/CLP too

again good luck..it is a nice gun and shoots great....out shooting my glock 17 today and wished I had my 380 :(

[jocko]

spray away, it s fine...

[socialwork911]

jocko-thanks...one my 380 comes home....can't wait

[sventvkg]

I misunderstood the previous owner....He put about 100 rounds of FMJ through it and 50 rounds of Hollow Point without any problems...So...He was carrying the gun without breaking it in....:eek:...My mistake and I will say that I was running it a bit dry as that's how I understood the lube diagram. I've always run my guns wetter so I'll make sure to run this wet.I'm going to run about 50 rounds through her tomorrow..Got Remington UMC 95gr FMJ, and a box of Federal FMJ. I'll let ya know how it goes.

[MDH65]

One 6rd mag of Hornady feeding fine is not what I would consider good to go ammo.
Go for 50rds and see how it does first.

[sventvkg]

I ran 50 rounds of a mix of the Remington and Federal FMJ through it..Had one double feed..Cleared it but no other problems...Gun was nice, clean and lubed up. Still not acceptable for a self defense weapon in my opinion. Any Idea what could have caused the double feed?

So..Previous owner had 150 rounds through it and was using as his backup..Gun arrived dirty by the way...:confused:

I put 200 rounds and had many FTF's because the slide wouldn't return to battery. I believe this was operator error on my part as I suspect I wasn't running the gun wet enough.

Ran 50 rounds through it last night with only a double feed incident...I'd like to know how often this happens and could I have limp wristed it and caused it?

I'll shoot another 50 rounds next week of the same range FMJ ammo. If I don't have any problems I'll be satisfied:)

Damn is this gun accurate. I was in the RED center mass every time from 3-15 yards but one in the 9 ring....Pretty nice shooting for a gun this size and a new one to me at that. :D

[OnTheSide]

My CM9 seems to be sensitive to Walmart Federal. But has only FTF'd twice in ~400 rounds.

[jocko]

norally if there is somethngwrong with a gun it reproduces the issues time and time again. sometimes if something is wrong with the shooter it reproduces some issues far less. Just say. One can limp a gun and never know he even did it and then it is the guns fault. one can be sooting maybe tolong at a range session and gets tired and never knows it. . Might just be me but if I had to failures to feed in 400 rounds I would be looking in the mirror. Just sayin.

[JFootin]

Can you describe what you mean by a "double feed?"

One thing I have all my life done with semi-autos is, after loading a mag and before inserting one in the gun, I tap the back of it against my other hand or wrist to make sure all the bullets are as far back as they can go in the mag. I think this helps reduce feeding issues.

[Cokeman]

Double feed? One live round and one spent case?

[sventvkg]

Double feed? One live round and one spent case?

No, that's a failure to extract to my knowledge..


Double feed: Slide goes back feeds one bullet and at least part of another so there is one bullet partially in the chamber and another below it jammed because it came out of the magazine as well. Pain in the butt to clear I might add as the Magazine was really tight in there. I don't know if I limp wristed the gun to cause this to happen. It's possible..I had only one round go outside the bull area in 50 rounds...that could have been the round.

As far as this gun being sensitive to WalMart Federal, that could have been it. Again, aside from that double feed the gun was great.

[Cokeman]

Oh. I would think that was a mag issue. How many rounds were left in the mag when it happened?

[JFootin]

Oh. I would think that was a mag issue. How many rounds were left in the mag when it happened?

+1. Mag issue. I have never heard of this happening before with a Kahr or any other gun. :confused:

[sventvkg]

You never heard of a double feed? Or THE WAY I'm describing it?.. because, maybe I have it backwards...

[JFootin]

Well, there's folks with a lot more experience than me, but I've just never heard that before. We have had a few reports of mags coming from Kahr with the mag spring in backwards. Kahr gets them from the supplier and don't check that, which requires disassembling the mag. It shouldn't ever happen, but it does. What can I say. The right way is when the top end of the spring is horizontal. If it is wrong, the top of the spring angles down at a sharp angle toward the front. Just rotate the spring 180° to correct it.

[Cokeman]

Do either of your mags have bent lips? Are they the same as each other? Are the springs still pretty stiff? Same length? Followers look OK? Have they been modified?

[sventvkg]

Gun is running smoothly now..I'm completely convinced that the initial problems I had were operator error :(..My fault..The one Double feed was a fluke that can happen. That said, I ran 50 rounds through her today with no problems at all. Same Remington and Federal FMJ. Can't afford to put my Hornady Rounds though it at a dollar a round!! I shot a magazine full the first day without any problems so I have no reason to believe the Critical Defense would be any different if the FMJ is running perfectly. All told, I have 300 rounds though the gun and the Preview owner had 150.

[JFootin]

Sounds good! :D

[jocko]

Gun is running smoothly now..I'm completely convinced that the initial problems I had were operator error :(..My fault..The one Double feed was a fluke that can happen. That said, I ran 50 rounds through her today with no problems at all. Same Remington and Federal FMJ. Can't afford to put my Hornady Rounds though it at a dollar a round!! I shot a magazine full the first day without any problems so I have no reason to believe the Critical Defense would be any different if the FMJ is running perfectly. All told, I have 300 rounds though the gun and the Preview owner had 150.

not to many would fess up to user error,. so kudos to u and the gun,now shoot itlike u stole it.

[sventvkg]

I just dont' think I had the gun oiled up enough..Now I run her wet like my old M16:)

[P45Shooter]

I also posted this in another thread.

I was having same problem. Kahr sent me new followers for 2 magazines. No change. What I have observed is it is probably my thumb position on the left side of the slide causing the problem. I am right handed. My normal "thumbs forward " grip that I shoot with on the majority of my pistols has my thumbs extended forward. The P380, being a small gun in my slightly larger than normal hands, has the positon of the slide release in the "perfect"(?) spot for my right hand thumb to unconciously apply pressure to the slide stop, keeping it from engaging, thus causing the failure to lock open. I conciously kept the thumb away from the slide stop lever, and the problem went away. Try shooting with your left hand as a test as well. No thumb interference. Don't limp wrist it either.

[sventvkg]

I also posted this in another thread.

I was having same problem. Kahr sent me new followers for 2 magazines. No change. What I have observed is it is probably my thumb position on the left side of the slide causing the problem. I am right handed. My normal "thumbs forward " grip that I shoot with on the majority of my pistols has my thumbs extended forward. The P380, being a small gun in my slightly larger than normal hands, has the positon of the slide release in the "perfect"(?) spot for my right hand thumb to unconciously apply pressure to the slide stop, keeping it from engaging, thus causing the failure to lock open. I conciously kept the thumb away from the slide stop lever, and the problem went away. Try shooting with your left hand as a test as well. No thumb interference. Don't limp wrist it either.

It doesn't appear that the position my hand is in is interfering with the slide. I have kinda small hands and the way I shoot, i'm pretty conscious about my hand getting in the way of the slide and I'm VERY conscious of that happening. I also don't think I limp wristed it. I had my buddy who's a really good handgun instructor and Detective Sergent, watch me shoot the other day and in fact, he helped me clear the double feed that because the bullets where stuck pretty had and squeezing the magazine so that the release wasn't dropping the mag free. He got the mag out for me though :)...Anyway, I think it's a great gun and something I can carry everyday.

[Cokeman]

I guess you'll just have to try to do it again. I'll bet you can't.

[adamog133]

Took my brand new p380 to the range yesterday-2-9-13 and had many issues. I had a few failures for the slide locking back on empty mag. I had many failure to return to battery , almost every round out of 100, using fiocci fmj 95 grain factory ammo, I did the recommended kahr field strip and prep before I shot even 1 round, .

At home after the first 100 rounds at the range I used snap caps and I can get the round casing to slide under the extractor just fine with a stripped slide and barrel out, the ejector is moving freely from breech to outside of the slide when snap cap is manually inserted, but cannot get slide to go into battery unless I sling shot or drop the slide release. When shooting live at the range, the slide will not return to battery most of the time. I am going to try +P rounds for the next 100 rounds and see if that gives it enough inertia to go into battery. I had a few burrs and sanded them out and polished up the areas but still issues. I modified the magazine followers before going to the range and they seem to be feeding ok.

[jocko]

that is a wise thing to do IMO. New kahrs sometimes are so damn tight and the reoil springs so strong that slide locking open sometimes does indeed take a few hundred rounds to get the springs to take their designed set.

The failure to retrun with Fiocci, I hav eo clue but again trying a different brand of ammo might tell u alot to. Seems to me like u have went through the gun correctly. I never like to say it cold be shooter erro in fear of pissin a poster off but how about letting anutter good shooter go with you and see ifhe can also duplicate the same issues. All ur doing is eliminting the possabilities and definitely shooter error could be one of them. I would IMO not waste a 100 rounds of +P either. In the first 50 it should easily tellyou if the gun is working itself out of the kinks. that is expensive sh!t. It should show up i the first 25 even. Just sayin. U will keep us posted though?? They are simplly great guns WHEN THEYWORK AS DESIGNED..

[adamog133]

I will keep you posted after the next range session.

My wife will not shoot the p380 as she hates the tightness of the slide. She cannot rack my pm45 at all, she cannot even sling shot it or drop the slide stop release. These Kahr guns are so tight and stiff.
I will have the range officer give it a try to see if he can duplicate it. I was having limp wrist issues, ftfeed, ftfire, failure to go into battery, with the pm45 after the 1st 100 rounds in but now it is shooting sweet as pie and only 125 rounds into it so far.

I was not preventing the slide from resetting with my weak thumb as I kept it away completely as I have to do with my p238 due to the smallness of these little buggers. Never had a single issue with my sig p238 from the start.

What gets me is that a t home with snap caps, if I do not slingshot or drop the slide release lever, it will not go into battery either. I understand I need another 100 rounds or so for the break in period. After careful inspection the tolerances on these babys are super tight, much tighter than any of my other firearms especially in 380 caliber.

I hated my pm45 the 1st trip out, now I love it.
Keep you posted.

oh yeah, my hornady critical defense had no issues at all. Interesting.....
:)

[jocko]

well that is a good thing, u know maybe now it just cold be the lower powered fmj ammo and in time I do think that will shoot itsef in to. Those recoil springs on the P380 are strong, compared to my kel teks thatI once owned. But it is whatit is, andI do agree, ur wife will not win the battle on the 380 either with making the slide operate. Just to tight of a gun and to small. I had alot of issues in the beginning trying tohand rck it but after awhile the gun got better and I guess I did to, but one has to think aobut what he is doing to..

It is amazing though that so so many kahrs after 200+ rounds seem to be totaly differentguns, smoother than glass, easier to rack etc. Takes some patience but most of the time the end results are posisitve.

I think that hornady thing kinda tells u , ur o the right track...

[adamog133]

i think so, thanks for the advise. I have actually manually racked the pm45 at home about 500 times over the past week and it has really loosened up a lot. I will post after 200 to 300 rounds for both pm45 and the p380 and let y'all know the outcome. Wife will stick with her m&p 9, xds45 and her xd tactical 45, she has no issues with those at all. Go figure... xds 45 is a little radical on the hands though , small frame, short barrel, lots of muzzle rise. :)