New Shooter New to Kahr and New to KahrTalk

[krazman]

Hi All!

Introductions: I am totally new to firearms as of one month ago. Never had em. Now, can't get enough of em! Got my first, a NEW Glock 26 two days after getting into a "hand gun owner responsibility" argument with one of my patients / friends. Had three of them (all former LE) take me to a shooting range and show me how to handle and use several Glocks (17, 19, 26, 21SF) and Rugers (LCP and LC9). Got my used Beretta 70s .22LR and a used Savage 62 .22LR a day after the Glock! Took and passed my CCH 3 weeks after that first night at the range. Bought my NEW Kahr PM9 (PM9093N) last night as my EDC. Had VERY high hopes for this PM9. Just shot for the first time and I'm not happy.....

I have spent numerous hours lurking here and reading LOTS of threads including all of the stickies in the Kahr Service forum. When I got my PM9 home from the dealer last night, I immediately field stripped it and flushed every nook and cranny with non-chlorinated brake cleaner, per Jocko, as I have done with my g26 in the past. The slide was dripping with oil and debris including metal shavings out of the box BEFORE cleaning! Dried off the brake cleaner and let the insides air dry for an hour. Then gave everything a good Ballistol wipe down (not the striker assembly), and cleaned the barrel. When it was totally clean and wiped dry, I followed the Kahr Lube instructions and diagram and lubed my PM9. Put it back together and sat in front of the TV racking the slide over 100 times to loosen it up and seat the springs. All was good I thought.

Took the Beretta with it's new rosewood grips and the PM9 to my friend's house outside of town today. He has set up a range with a 15 foot backstop (dirt pile) in one of his fields. Only got a few magazines off before it started to rain and had to stop. Fired 2 6's and 2 7's mags through the PM9. I'm a whimp and can't rack back the slide far enough to engage the slide stop without a magazine in the gun, so I loaded each mag and overhand slingshoted the slide like I do for my g26. Chambered and fired the Federal 115gn FMJ from Wallyworld with no problem. When the 6 round mag emptied both times the slide stayed open. Failed to stay open both times with the 7 round mag.

Again, I know I'm whimpy, but the 6 round mag doesn't fit flush and pinched my fingers on the front lip with every shot. No pinching with the 7. Hence, better aim with the 7 since I wasn't anticipating the pinch. I will have to check into a different floor plate for the 6 maybe. I just ordered 3 new Kahr factory 6 mags from Cheaper Than Dirt a few hours ago. They have the stock stainless floorplate. I thought I saw a 6 with a thicker plastic floorplate. Anyone know if that will help, or have a better solution other than "man up"?

I guess this isn't really such a big deal. But paying half again what I paid for that g26 made me expect higher standards from Kahr. I'm not trying to inflame, and I'm sorry for this long whiney rant for a first post, but would someone who has multiple Kahrs please explain to me what it is that makes you so happy with Kahr Arms? My Glock was spotless when I first opened it. Exactly the opposite with the Kahr, it was filthy. The Glock works perfectly out of the box. There are numerous stickies here with instructions for modifying or correcting the Kahrs, AND CLEANING THE KAHRS right out of the box. For that kind of money, shouldnt' the Kahrs arrive in better shape. They have a reputation as being a very fine firearm. Where did that reputation come from? No really, not sarcasm, what was it that built that reputation?

Again, thank you for letting me vent. Thank you for all of the wonderful stickies and suggestions that I have already read. Please don't take this as a bash against Kahr. That's not my point. I could have just returned it and bought something else. I want to find what it is that makes these so good. I realize that 26 rounds isn't a good sampling of the problems. I plan on running several hundred more through this PM9 this weekend.

kraz

ps. Unable to upload photo of all three pistols...1st post rule!

[jocko]

#1 come aboard,IMO r doing just fine no doubt 26 rounds is nuttin.You read the kahr manual and those 200 rounds they ask you to shoot seems o do wonders for little picky issues...
U wil get e hang of hand racking ut is so seems got the hand over the slide thing doing well. The not locking ack n the7 round magazine is odd, but I own a PM9 and personally they can stick every 7 round extended magzine up their royal asses. Some for some reason do give issue,although not locking back is not IMO the end of the world. That might after a few hundred rounds take are f itself also. Ur recoil springs are very stout. compared to yur glcks wihich have 13# recoil spring, ur kakhr has 18 and 20# springs in them. They are a bugger at the beginning. but after they take their pre designed set, they do well in locking back on the last round. It is all about timing.The fact that r kahr came o you with crapola al inide is why we recommend a ood pre cleaning. They are upposed to be cleaned before shipping u found ou urs was not Again not the end of the world either. U got to know your kahr alittle better before that first shot. It didn't hunt u in doin that either.. accept it and move on, it's done now so hopefully ur gonn clean it often.s is gonna be ur carry peace,wich IMO it is a true pocket gun which none ofthe guns u mentioned come near to be able to do what urPM9 can do. Then IMO practice with the 6 round flush fit magazine. Sure the 7 round gives u a different feel. It is longer, but IMO ur defeating the purpose of what you bought this gun for.It is a atrue conmcealment weapon. U probalby gonna find out you shoot your glocks far better to and that is do to two different triggers. Kahrs have no safety so their by design looooong but soso smooth trgger system takes sometimeto adjust to. It is IMO not a target gun, but a clos eup defense gun thatwill go bang when needed

The 6 round mags work fine,l IMO stick with them

U can order from kahr the polymer floor plate that goes on the cw series and it is anicer fit. again that gap is whatit is , u work around it ,and the other guns u mentioned u can get your hand around the entire grip, with the PM9, u just cannot.

Put 200 runds through the gun as asked of u then give us a report back.I think alot of whatur were discussing will be a mute point. Kahrs are super quality guns. Soon u will find that out to.

I own a G19 tuned etc, and it is the finest shootin gun I have ever owne. It did go back to Glock once though for issues but sh!t happens. Sad thing is , it is my home defense gun and nuttin more. My PM9 rides in ,my front pocket and has for over 5 years. That to me is why I call ,my PM9 a true defense gun, it is there every day for me, no special dress crap needed. I also try not to compare other gun makers guns to other gun makers guns. No one makes as small and as light a gun as your PM9 and if the big makers could don't u think they would have done it by now. Ur G26 comes about as close as Glock can get and it sure ain't poicketable IMO, Its small by glocks standards but hugh by Kahr standards.

I didn't take any of ur posts as ranting, more of just not knowing kahrs like we know them. For me if I wanted a 7 round magazine gun, I would have bought the cw9 and just been done with it.. Might just be me but anything stickng out the bottom of ur PM9 looks like sh!t. Practice the way ur gonna carry and no doubt ur gonna carry with the 6 round mag, a 7 round mag will shoot different to, as u have all finers now around somthing.. This ain't a beer can gun for 25 yards, but a close up gun for COM that you will sone find out carrys with ease.

[Bawanna]

krazman, if you need help with translation of that eloquent post let me know. Your still new and don't have your Jocko decoder ring yet.
I have a book thats about twice as large as the encyclopedia Britannica but it has nearly every possible spelling that Jocko uses.
He throws in a new one now and again to trip me up but I consider it a challenge.

The short translation is your doing fine, do what your doing, you'll come to love it. Harley's rule! Well that might be Honders rule but in lieu of his past history I'm putting my money on Harley, just a guess on that one.

[krazman]

Thanks jocko! Ur right. The dirt was in the past. I've vented and moved on. I planned on not using the 7 round mag from before I bought the PM9 based on all of the reading here. Bought more 6's and will receive them tomorrow or monday. Just surprized by the 6's pinch, Will have to evaluate and refine my hold on it. Have a Talon Grip sandpaper texture on order as well. That may help me.

+1 with your suggestion for the 7 round mag!!!
kraz

[Bawanna]

I think Wyntrout uses a big O ring down at the base plate to eliminate that pinch. I might have the models incorrect as he has a Kahr stable but I know he does that with one of them. Maybe I cancelled that ahlzeimers test too soon, no matter can't remember when it was anyhow.

[krazman]

Thanks Bawanna!

I have been lurking so I understand him mostly. Problem is, after reading him, I'm typing like him!!! Like talking to a Texan. you pick up the accent real quick.

[Bawanna]

Thanks Bawanna!

I have been lurking so I understand him mostly. Problem is, after reading him, I'm typing like him!!! Like talking to a Texan. you pick up the accent real quick.

Everyone has the accent, you just lose it when you leave the south. You don't pick it up, it just comes back naturally.

[Bawanna]

Thanks Bawanna!

I have been lurking so I understand him mostly. Problem is, after reading him, I'm typing like him!!! Like talking to a Texan. you pick up the accent real quick.

If you understand him there are people I'm sure that would pay big bucks to get inside your head. Lord knows I don't have him figured out.

[krazman]

I think Wyntrout uses a big O ring down at the base plate to eliminate that pinch. I might have the models incorrect as he has a Kahr stable but I know he does that with one of them. Maybe I cancelled that ahlzeimers test too soon, no matter can't remember when it was anyhow.
Great idea! That would fill in the void nicely. I have a firm rubber extension for a Glock 1915 mag to use it in my g26. No pinch and much more stable.

Thank you!
kraz

[jocko]

Thanks jocko! Ur right. The dirt was in the past. I've vented and moved on. I planned on not using the 7 round mag from before I bought the PM9 based on all of the reading here. Bought more 6's and will receive them tomorrow or monday. Just surprized by the 6's pinch, Will have to evaluate and refine my hold on it. Have a Talon Grip sandpaper texture on order as well. That may help me.

+1 with your suggestion for the 7 round mag!!!
kraz

the thing with the kahr fourm is we learn alot about our kahrs that sometimes even kahr doesn't realize WTF is going on. We have guys here that are just damn smart and know guns. Now no one wants to fokk with a gun tomake it right and 99% of all kahrs need nuttin. Some do. I know now my G19 that I sernt back for warranty work could have been done in house after I did some post checking around. I just didn't know that at the time.

The kahr lube chart is the best, use it.

The propper preppinbg thread is IMO the best, now it lists alot of things to check for but that doesn' tmean it is in ur gun or any for that matter, but these are things that we have found over the 5 years that one can check for himself an sometimes 15 minutes of fiddly around can make it perfect.Sure beats a trip back to the mothership.

Hell check ur 7 round magazine, take it apart and see if the spring is oriented like it shoulds be under the follower. We have seen mags come through with the spring in backward . Pain in the ass but again kahr doesn't make their magaazine, they come to them fully assembly and they assume the vendor that makes them did it right. sometimes that just doesn't work out right, so we just recommend checking some things over yourself before that first trip out the door. Might just save some venting. Ur dirty kahr is not the norm. w e get many who take thier slides down when buying new to clean and report it was spiffy clean, but again this is a one time event, and u definitely got to know ur gun better befrore that first bang.Hopefully u picked up on the tip form a member of the coat hanger mod that makes taking down that slide a breeze. U also know now what that little clean out hole is for on ur kahr and also on the bottom of ur glock slide to. IMO once u take ur slide down like u did and clean all that crapola out of it, that little clean out holw should be ur go to hole all the time, well if ur marriend then it should be ur second go to hole all the time:D:D

If u have any issues, ask these guys, u won't be the first and certainly u won't be the last, but let metellu, once you get your PM9 running right, those other guns u mentioned as nice as they are will not be ur go to carry peace. I might be worng but I sure read here alot of glock owners who have bought kahrs and said "wherre have I been all these years".:banplease:

[krazman]

Definitely got to know my PM9 up close and personal! That's all good though.

Follower in the 7 rnd doesn't travel as high in the empty mag as the 6 round follower in it's mag. Springs in correctly.

Just discovered that the slide lockpin post fits the hole in the bottom of the mag perfectly! Hmm...no need for a Glock tool!

Seems like the top of the metal mag case is pressed in on the sides impeeding the follower. I'm not going to alter the mag. I will let Kahr do it on their dime.

I was very stingy with the oil last night. Applied it on a q-tip VERY LIGHTLY. I have oil all over the inside of the polymer today. Next time I may just wave the oil bottle overhead like adding vermouth to a martini.
kraz

[downtownv]

:DWelcome from NJ. A tip for you unless you're from Texas.... NEVER talk like them. 2 reasons, it' pee's them off and you will sound stupid. It's got to be real, right cowboys?

[krazman]

Thanks downtownv! Hard not to sound like em. I'm in Kansas!

[Ikeo74]

Just load 6 in that 7 round mag till the springs get set and you will not have any problems. It's so easy, just because they say it holds 7 is no reason to cram in that 7 th round until after broken in.

[krazman]

Thanks Ikeo74! Will that correct the problem with the slide failing to remain open when the mag is empty?

[Ikeo74]

Thanks Ikeo74! Will that correct the problem with the slide failing to remain open when the mag is empty?
That is due to one of these 2 problems: 1) Limp wristing the gun when expecting the last round. or 2) wimppy ammo. Check to see which applys to you.

[krazman]

Haven't limp wristed yet, to my knowledge. Same ammo as was in the 6 round mag with no problem...Federal 115grn from WM. 6 worked both times. 7 failed both times.

[Ikeo74]

Haven't limp wristed yet, to my knowledge. Same ammo as was in the 6 round mag with no problem...Federal 115grn from WM. 6 worked both times. 7 failed both times.
The 3rd problen which is less common is your grip on the extended part of the 7 rd mag. I am not sure how to adjust for that. Like I said, I have small hands and have never had a problem with either mag.

[krazman]

When I compare the empty 6 & 7 round mags, the 7 round follower is not able to rise as high as the 6 round. It doesnt feel like the spring is the problem. the walls of the mag obstruct the follower from rising completey.

Had a similar problem with one of my six g2610 mags. Changed springs and followers. Didn't help. Sent it to factory and it was very promptly replaced and returned. Works fine now.

I think that is the fix I will pursue with Kahr. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
kraz

[wyntrout]

if you try an O-ring, smaller is better. If it's too fat, it will put downward pressure on the mag and cause malfunctions. I wound up using 3/32" thick by 3/4" inner diameter plumbing O-rings.

I've never had a pinch with my PM9 and maybe you would need 1/16" diameter... small gap?

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/P40%20firing%20165%20Grain%20Blazers/FatO-ringsmiddlebrokenfollower_2117.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/P40%20firing%20165%20Grain%20Blazers/O-rings_2119.jpg

Post at http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8426&highlight=O-ring&page=11

post #106.

Welcome to the forum!

Wynn:)

[krazman]

THANK YOU wyntrout!!!!!

I just sent you a pm asking about this. You were posting at the same time. Brilliant!
kraz

[wyntrout]

I already answered it, too. I hope that helps you. The P40 only had to bite me once and I started trying O-rings. I'm ready now with both sizes on hand, though I might need 1/16" thick ones on the P9.

Wynn:)

[krazman]

Just returned from the range where I fired 130 rounds through my new PM9 "like I stole it". Everything (except the shooter) worked quite well. The slide failed to stay open on empty only twice out of 10 mags with the 7 round mag, and worked every time with the 6 round mag.

The gun seems to be loosening up as everyone said it would. Thanks for telling me to be patient. I guess it just requires many controlled internal explosions and much heat to get the parts to work with each other.

As a new shooter, I am having a difficult time adjusting to the pull of this DAO trigger. I seem to be forcing the shot and I'm hitting down to the left (right handed shooter). That looooooonnnnnnngggggg pull gives me time to anticipate the bang instead of the surprise. Gotta work on that some, but WallyWorld has been out of Federal 9mm bulk since I bought them out last week! I'm running low.

Got home to find my new CC pocket holster in the mailbox. Made for the back pocket in your Wranglers. Fits well and Looks just like a wallet from the back. Got it here:

http://www.pocketholsters.com/Kahr_Arms_Pocket-Wallet_Holste/kahr_arms_pocket-wallet_holster.html

Still can't post a photo yet. I'm interrupting all of your threads to bump up my post count!

Most importantly, THANK YOU to wyntrout for the neoprene o-ring suggestion. I forgot to buy them until after I finished shooting today. I bought the 3/4 I.D. x 3/32"dia which seems to fit perfectly. The 1/8"dia was too thick to get the mag to engage in the grip, as wyntrout said it would be. 43 cents each at ACE.

The o-ring also makes the 6 round mag eject with force when the release is pressed, for the guys looking to drop mags as they run!

Thanks to all for the help.
kraz

[jocko]

welcome to the loooooong trigger group who shoots low and left. It will get better. Just accept the gun for what it is designed for. remember uhve no safety other than the looooong trigger and what is between ur ears. great design when u think about it for what it was made for. IMO the main thing is consisitency in the 6 round mag over the 7 round mag. if umust carry the7 round for your back up and if u can't do it in 14 rounds, well??? u not need to worry about whether the slide lockes back or not.

some of the other modern sub sub compact pocket semi'
s have no last round lock open. Rohrbaugh comes to mind and I think Boberg also. There are others but they have slipped my feeble mind to.

[krazman]

Just a follow up to my previous posts. I didn't want to leave this thread hanging and give someone the idea that this PM9 was a lemon.

Shot 100 total rounds yesterday with all four 6 round and the one 7 round mags. Not a single problem. No FTF or FTE. Seems I am over the initial break in problems. 256 total rounds through it so far.

The A&G Grip extender on the 7 round mag is much more comfortable than the stock 7 round extender.

wyntrout's o-ring suggestion worked perfectly. The mags locked into place and the ammo loaded to chamber properly. Thanks wyntrout!

I have switched to TW25B lubricant which also seems to be working well.

I tried the Talon Grips granular grip and took the skin off my palm, thumb and two grip fingers. E-mailed TG and they were kind enough to give me 50% off the rubber grip, which should arrive tomorrow.

I would say that I am NOW as happy with this PM9 as I had hoped I would be when I first got it last week. Now if I can just get MY shooting accuracy to improve as much as the PM9's performance has improved.
kraz

[Alfonse]

I have pretty big hands and find I have to use a little different type of finger placement on my PMJ9's trigger to be able to shoot accurately with the long pull. Otherwise, my finger contorts too much and my shot is off.

So, instead of having the trigger on between the end of my finger and the first joint like I do on every other thing I shoot, I end up nestling the trigger in the first joint. It is probably not what the experts would recommend, but allows me a smooth, straight trigger pull with the PM9 and my rather long fingers.

Practicing with a Crimson Trace Laser helped me figure out a technique that works. I've shot it enough now that it is just the way I naturally hold the PMJ9 when shooting. I don't even have to think about it.

I was lousy with it the first 500 or 600 rounds from a target shooting perspective, but good enough to put a hurt on something within 20 feet of me. I don't have the eyes to be great at target shooting something that small anymore, but I have gotten much more consistent in the ranges that matter.

[krazman]

Thanks for the suggestion Alfonse. I'll have to try different finger placement to see if it helps me. I seem to be shooting low, not low left, just low. Like you said, I can still hurt something, but not bulls-eye accurate.
kraz

[leftysixty]

Finger pinch with metal mag bases-in my case I found that the edge left from stamping the floor plate was what hurt! I took it apart and gently cleaned the sharp edges off (used a diamond needle file), problem solved!

As for trigger control-just like you would fire a double action revolver (no don't thumb the hammer back) smooooth single stroke front to back, repeat.

Don't worry you will get it, enjoy your new toy!

[krazman]

Shot about 500 rounds today between 4 guns. Had to get re-introduced to my g26 so only 62 rounds through the PM9. Absolutely no problems with it today. Functioned quite well and I was more on target as well. I did have one nose-under on the second bullet in the 7 round mag. I know the #2 bullet is a chronic problem for many who are using the 7 round mag. It only happened once, so I'm not concerned. Great way to finish off and improve an afternoon that started with my Chiefs loosing AGAIN. They are playing like CHEFS.

leftysixty - thanks for your suggestion regarding the sharpp edge on the mags. I checked mine and couldn't find anything wrong. The O-rings are working well and I haven't gotten pinched since adding them.

I changed out the sandpaper Talon Grip for the rubber Talon Grip. What a pleasure to hold now! I'm definitely having fun with my PM9!!
kraz

[wyntrout]

On the seven round magazines, a little tweaking of the forward part of the magazine lips... both minutely to the left can really help. The stainless is very tough and hard to bend so using a small set of pliers, I tried to very minutely bend the lips to the left to aim the cartridge toward the center of the feed ramp. The pliers slipped off on both lips and I didn't think that I had accomplished anything... but, when I tired cycling rounds with hard, fast racking, I had no jams as before. After the pliers slipped off on both lips, I used 400 grit sandpaper and very lightly sanded the lips. It was perfect, I guess, because no more jams into the right side of the feed ramp.

Wynn:)