Trigger finger position?

[Brent]

This topic was brought up in another thread, but I didn't want to distract from the ops question on his particular handgun.

I am fairly new to the handgunning world and as a newby I am going through the normal gamut of questions. I guess you could say that I'm a seeker at the point, looking for all the "right" answers to my questions. I know to some of you old pros this will be a no-brainer kind of thread. You've already discovered what works best for you and are content with the handling/accuracy of your handgun. Your input is valuable to us beginners as well.

As a rifle shooter I have learned the importance of a "straight back" trigger pull to get the most accurate shot out of your firearm. Common sense mandates that this principle would also apply to handguns. A shorter sight distance and the problem of NOT being able to hold a handgun as stable as a rifle even adds to the importance of this IMO. I have been taught and even read many posts on where you should position your finger on the trigger of your handgun. The middle of the pad towards the tip of your trigger finger seems to be the universal answer. Hey, it's the same place I use with my rifles, so why not? Herein lies the problem with me. Each of my handguns fits my hand differently. Holding each gun with my finger off the trigger and extended forward I notice that the trigger does not line up at the same position on my finger. With my long fingers I find it challenging to position the pad on the trigger and get a "straight back" trigger pull. Thus my dry-fire testing begins............

I just did a dry-fire test with my Kahr P40. I held the gun one-handed with a light grip. The first test I put the pad of my finger on the trigger and pulled. At the release of the firing pin I immediately noticed the front sight jerk to the right. This would translate into the fact that the sight was being pushed towards the left. Exactly where my shots have been hitting. I moved my trigger position towards the first joint from the tip and did the same test. No jerk at the end with sights staying on target. Then I did a more casual test, this time not doing a full trigger pull. Holding the gun very loosely with just enough pressure to keep it in my hand I used the same positions mentioned above for my trigger finger. As I started squeezing the trigger (trigger on pad) the muzzle would move to the left. Switched towards the joint and no more pushing to the left. No I normally do not shoot one-handed, but I figure if I can make an improvement one-handed then it will improve my two-handed shots as well. After all, I'm trying to improve my sight stability which will improve my shot placement.

Switching gears a little here.............my finger lines up better on my Bersa Thunder .380, so the position there is a little different. I know this sounds complicated, but it is more comfortable doing this than trying to make sure the pad of my finger is on the trigger. It's more of a natural flow as I pick up or draw the handgun and allow my hand to fit to it verses trying to find that "correct" position.

What does all this mean? Maybe that I'm wasting my time. Nothing conclusive for me yet guys, but just something I will be trying out my next trip to the range.


Some interesting articles I've read this morning: http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/you-want-me-to-do-what-with-my-finger/

Pages 26-27: Just click "continue". You don't have to log in. http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS0512/


Any input is welcome guys. As I stated earlier, this is all about a newby trying to figure it all out. I'll take what I get here and other places to the range and try it out. Lots of fun for me as I love a challenge!!! :)


__________________

[Redstate]

I've seen about 2 schools of thought on this issue. One is the pad of the finger, and the other is the first joint. The first joint is used by many in double action revolver shooting. Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best method. However, many would advocate that if one cannot get to at least the middle of the pad, as opposed to the tip of the finger, the pistol may be too large for that person.

[Barth]

I've seen about 2 schools of thought on this issue. One is the pad of the finger, and the other is the first joint. The first joint is used by many in double action revolver shooting. Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best method. However, many would advocate that if one cannot get to at least the middle of the pad, as opposed to the tip of the finger, the pistol may be too large for that person.

+1
Never really thought about it,
but I usually use first joint on a DA revolver and pad on an auto.

My Sigs have optional short triggers available.
That may well be an option on other guns.
Although the new variable size back straps, which should do the same thing,
seem to be the flavor of the week.

Use what's most comfortable and proficient.
But you really need at least the pad on the trigger - IMHO.

[yqtszhj]

Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best method.

What he said. :cool:

It varies by person based on gun size, hand size, etc... My hand is so big that I go almost all the way to the second joint and it works well for me.

The only gun I have that I struggle with is my 92FS that I can't shoot worth a crap. :smash:

[bobbybrooks]

I was reading an article on target shooting last night. It said either the end of either the tip or the middle bone. It expressed no preference.

[Barth]

What he said. :cool:

It varies by person based on gun size, hand size, etc... My hand is so big that I go almost all the way to the second joint and it works well for me.

The only gun I have that I struggle with is my 92FS that I can't shoot worth a crap. :smash:

Years ago I rented a short list of the best of the best combat pistols.
The Beretta 92 was on that list.
I thought I was a decent shot at the time.
And was shocked at how poorly I shot that gun.
I shot HKs like )(*&*( too.

Now I own three HKs and shoot well with all of them.
Things change.

UPDATE:
Make that four HKs - LOL!

[Brent]

I was reading an article on target shooting last night. It said either the end of either the tip or the middle bone. It expressed no preference.

Interesting! I haven't heard that, but did find the end of the middle bone is the natural contact point with my Kahr. Not so with the Bersa though.

[jocko]

most I have ever read was on the pad of the finger, not at the end of the finger. are u saying that some recommend middle bone as in the second joint??

I guess if one can master a bad hand position then more power to them. I know I try to do all the things right and the results are the same. My aiming at a beer can and a damn bird falling out of a tree 30 yards away. course over the years where I shoot when I pull up with my car and get out my sh!t, I hear people

say Oh OH, jocko's hear and soon the entire range is all mine. Just sayin, now that ain't a bad thing either.

I remember some years back watefrowl hunting. I shot at the lead bird and the last bird dropped an my yellow lab looked at me and I though he was saying woof woof but my buddy said he thought the dog was sayin woof ta fokk, woof da fokk. true story

[Brent]

Just a pic to show the difference between my Bersa Thunder and Kahr P40. At this point it is time for me to shut up until I can put up.....so to speak. Purely speculation on what position will work best for me until I try it out.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y488/BrentsKahr/KahrTalk/TriggerFingerPosition_zpsd28c72db.jpg

[muggsy]

Try this mehod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE&feature=channel&list=UL

[Brent]

Try this mehod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE&feature=channel&list=UL

Thanks for the video link. That did help me in keeping the end of my finger straight, but I'm still seeing the front sight movement/jerk as the trigger releases. For the record, I am doing a smooth trigger pull and not a jerk. I will give it a try at the range and see what the results are with live fire.

[muggsy]

No one, but no one can hold a gun perfectly still when the trigger releases the hammer, or striker. The trick is to try to do it exactly the same way every time. In addition to what you saw in Flick's video concerning trigger control you must grip the pistol properly. Here is a Video on how to grip a pistol. The only thing that I would add is to only apply pressure to the grip with the middle two fingers of your strong hand. If you apply pressure with the little finger of the strong hand you will have a tendency to shoot low, because pressure from the little finger will have a tendency to pull the barrel down when the hammer or striker releases. Let me know how you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4

[Brent]

No one, but no one can hold a gun perfectly still when the trigger releases the hammer, or striker. The trick is to try to do it exactly the same way every time. In addition to what you saw in Flick's video concerning trigger control you must grip the pistol properly. Here is a Video on how to grip a pistol. The only thing that I would add is to only apply pressure to the grip with the middle two fingers of your strong hand. If you apply pressure with the little finger of the strong hand you will have a tendency to shoot low, because pressure from the little finger will have a tendency to pull the barrel down when the hammer or striker releases. Let me know how you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4

Thanks for the video. I've used that method, but found it awkward with the Kahr. I'll give it another try and see how it goes.

[JFootin]

I don't like the thumb sticking up like that. That shelf near the top of the grip is called a thumb rest for a reason. I leave my thumb where it should be and wrap my weak hand around like he does. But the heel of my weak hand contacts the grip and my weak thumb is beside my strong thumb at the same angle. Not sticking strait up!

[JFootin]

The only thing that I would add is to only apply pressure to the grip with the middle two fingers of your strong hand.

Well said, Muggsy! With a subcompact pistol like the PM and CM Kahrs, the Glock 26, the small 380s and other pocket guns, that is the only way to grip them. I see newbies voicing concern about not being able to get a "full grip" on these small pistols. But they don't realize the truth of what you are saying.

[muggsy]

I'm a thumbs forward kinda guy. I've never had a premature slide lock back using that method. I'm not saying that I'm the best shooter in the world, but I ain't too bad for a half blind, crippled, old man. ;)

[Brent]

I'm a thumbs forward kinda guy. I've never had a premature slide lock back using that method. I'm not saying that I'm the best shooter in the world, but I ain't too bad for a half blind, crippled, old man. ;)

I've tried it with my Kahr and couldn't get the hang of it. I just got a Glock 26 Gen4 yesterday and it fits my hand perfectly, making the thumbs forward hold feel great. Can't wait to try it out at the range. :)

[muggsy]

You might want to try a Hogue slip on grip on your Kahr. The palm swell makes it a bit more hand filling. Could help.

[mcbowflex]

I've found that positioning my finger on the trigger right before the first joint seems to work the best. Going the whole to the joint I have a tendency to jerk and the same way with using the pad of my finger. Also, I've that pressing forward with my trigger hand, and pulling with my support hand helps me stabilize the pistol throughout the trigger pull. Now with my Springfield XD the pad of my trigger seems to work better. It does however have a MUCH lighter and shorter trigger than my CW9.

Here is an article where Massad Ayoob recommends using the joint to longer, heavier triggers.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

[Popeye]

A semi-auto is designed to operate as the slide moves against the abutment of a firmly held frame. A low grasp allows the muzzle to whipsaw upward from recoil as the mechanism is automatically cycling, diverting momentum from the slide through the frame. Now the slide can run out of momentum before it has completed its work. This is why holding a pistol too low can cause it to jam.All these problems are cured with the high hand grasp.

Good article. This got me thinking about some new owners with smaller pistols.
This could be why some people seem to have problems with the cycling of smaller pistols like the LCP,P3at, and the smaller Kahr's and others. Of course getting them to possibly think it could be them and not the gun is a problem. We say limp wristing,and maybe for some shooters this is true, but this has me wondering if it goes much deeper then that for some folks.

[Brent]

I no longer have the Kahr, but shoot much better with the Glock. It just fits my hand better. I loved the Kahr's smooth trigger and wish I could have adjusted to the grip. Not Kahr's fault so much as it is mine. It's a great gun!

[JFootin]

A semi-auto is designed to operate as the slide moves against the abutment of a firmly held frame. A low grasp allows the muzzle to whipsaw upward from recoil as the mechanism is automatically cycling, diverting momentum from the slide through the frame. Now the slide can run out of momentum before it has completed its work. This is why holding a pistol too low can cause it to jam.All these problems are cured with the high hand grasp.

Good article. This got me thinking about some new owners with smaller pistols.
This could be why some people seem to have problems with the cycling of smaller pistols like the LCP,P3at, and the smaller Kahr's and others. Of course getting them to possibly think it could be them and not the gun is a problem. We say limp wristing,and maybe for some shooters this is true, but this has me wondering if it goes much deeper then that for some folks.

Yes. Good article. I have been facing challenges cycling FMJ ammo through my still new Taurus 738 TCP at the range. It feeds Hornady Critical Defense ammo 100% reliably, but it is too expensive to use as range ammo. I find the recoil with standard pressure ball ammo to be greater in that little gun than in my CM9 or even with +p ammo in my J frame! I have always held my pistols firmly and with a high hold, but next time I go to the range I am going to grasp that jumpy little bug higher and firmer to see if I can get some reliable feeding.

My hands and wrists are weakened by substantial partial paralysis, therefore I know it could be the shooter. So I am also going to ask my range buddy to shoot the gun a lot and see if he experiences any FTFs. The feed ramp has been polished, so I am hoping that more breakin rounds, along with improvements in my technique, will help eliminate the problems.

[Popeye]

Yes. Good article. I have been facing challenges cycling FMJ ammo through my still new Taurus 738 TCP at the range. It feeds Hornady Critical Defense ammo 100% reliably, but it is too expensive to use as range ammo. I find the recoil with standard pressure ball ammo to be greater in that little gun than in my CM9 or even with +p ammo in my J frame! I have always held my pistols firmly and with a high hold, but next time I go to the range I am going to grasp that jumpy little bug higher and firmer to see if I can get some reliable feeding.

My hands and wrists are weakened by substantial partial paralysis, therefore I know it could be the shooter. So I am also going to ask my range buddy to shoot the gun a lot and see if he experiences any FTFs. The feed ramp has been polished, so I am hoping that more breakin rounds, along with improvements in my technique, will help eliminate the problems.

JF, I've always thought that new owners needed to learn how to shoot these little pistols through time and rounds down range. I had a few stovepipes with my P3at in the begining and couldn't hit a barn from the inside with it. Sometimes I think we just might be in to much of a hurry to blame the gun. After all we're shooting a full size pistol round out of the much smaller pistol and the gun needs to get broken. That article was just able to put it into words better then I ever could. I have a friend who bought an LCP and just could not shoot that pistol and have it cycle properly. He asked me to shoot it knowing that I have a KT P3at with more than a few rounds down range. I had no problem with it, and told him the only problem with his gun was tighter than most and he needed to just practice with it. . He traded it in because he simply did not want to take the time to break it in,and train himself to use it properly. That's a shame because Ruger puts out a nice little pocket pistol in the LCP. I think asking your range buddy to shoot it is a good idea if he's familiar with shooting smaller pistols. It 's always been my opinion that the smaller pistols get better with age if the owner just sticks with it. Having said all that I do realize that some pistols are just not going to work no matter what and should be sent back to the factory.

[Alfonse]

The size of your hand has a bunch to do with it. My hand doesn't allow a straight back pull from the first pad because the PM9 is so small that my finger has to bend back around. I can't keep that pad even close to perpendicular to the barrel.

Other, larger pistols, don't have that issue for me. But, I can't put them in my pocket either.

I agree with the others, find something that works for you and keep practicing.

Another string had a picture of the Rohrbach and PM9 and the backstrap of the Rohrbach had a much longer spacing to the front of the trigger. It would probably be easier to shoot with big hands. But, I have a system worked out with my PM9 and the trigger is just further down my hand than on my other firearms.

[gm412]

The size of your hand has a bunch to do with it. My hand doesn't allow a straight back pull from the first pad because the PM9 is so small that my finger has to bend back around. I can't keep that pad even close to perpendicular to the barrel.

Other, larger pistols, don't have that issue for me. But, I can't put them in my pocket either.

I agree with the others, find something that works for you and keep practicing.

Another string had a picture of the Rohrbach and PM9 and the backstrap of the Rohrbach had a much longer spacing to the front of the trigger. It would probably be easier to shoot with big hands. But, I have a system worked out with my PM9 and the trigger is just further down my hand than on my other firearms.

The only way I can be accurate with my PM9 is to use the very tip of my finger pointed in towards me. It works for accuracy, but makes it hurt to shoot. I have tried so many different ways but so far that is the only way. At least in a defense position I dobt I will worry about a little pain in the finger tip.

[Popeye]

I agree a larger size hand has quite a bit to do with it. When I shoot my PM9 I shoot it with the trigger in the middle of the first pad and to pull it back straight it feels like I'm actually pulling it back and towards my hand. I'm left handed and if I try any other way the round is going low and towards the right of the target. Larger pistols like my Cz75B or 1911 it's not a problem. Just have to practice and see what works for you.