Im glad to hear its reliable

[jbaker]

first let me say that i like kahrs or i wouldn't have thaded my glock 19 for the pm45:D (awsome gun), but i spent alot of time on glock talk and ive never(very rarly) seen post/replys end with IM GLAD TO HEAR ITS RELIABLE, whats up with it in nearly EVERY thread here.

[jeep45238]

It's nice to hear that the gun somebody may bet their life on works properly :)

[jbaker]

It's nice to hear that the gun somebody may bet their life on works properly :)
i understand that, and it is nice to hear, but imho the gun should be 100% reliable fresh out the box.

[jbaker]

im really NOT trying to start trouble/brand war but most kahrs are defensive pistols that people count on to go bang every time.. and well kahr i think needs to try a littler harder esp. for there outrageus price, for 750-800+ for a sub compact 9mm it should not only function 100% out the box but it should also wash my car/walk my dog /do the dishes , i think you get it.

[jeep45238]

i understand that, and it is nice to hear, but imho the gun should be 100% reliable fresh out the box.

Depends. It used to not be that way at all, and for good reason. Revolvers excluded :D

Obviously there are tolerances involved. A tightly machined firearm will generally be very repeatable, mechanically speaking.

A tightly machined, hand fitted factory firearm may exhibit .0001" tolerance between the frame and the slide on the rails, and it probably has a tolerance for being parallel to each other. By firing the firearm (or racking the slide a lot, then firing), you are performing the final fitting that would cost mucho buckos to be performed by hand. The final polishing and slight enlargement of tolerances. By doing this when the machine is performing the action it was designed to do, instead of before, you make sure that the proper areas are polished. Every gun, regardless if they come off the same cnc machining assembly that is capable of holding tolerances to .00001", will be slightly different. I'd rather not pay the factory $300 to hand fit/polish my gun, I would rather do it myself and then shoot it (others would rather just shoot and fit/polish it that way). I have no clue what tolerances Kahr holds mind you - I'm simply pulling numbers from my day job :)

Tightly machined guns, as I said before, are mechanically more repeatable. This makes them mechanically more accurate. Whether or not somebody has the talent to take advantage of them is a different ball game. But, people want tight guns (I don't), and companies produce tight guns to sell them. Hell, look at Kimbers - they claim the tightest tolerances in the 1911 field, and they have had the most jamming problems in 1911's that I have seen when ran more than leisurely. How many times have you been to a gun shop and have seen the armchair commando's try to feel for slop between the frame and slide?

I've seen it a lot after working in the industry - and it has no real impact on accuracy. If the barrel locks up consistently in the same spot on the slide, and the sights on the slide don't move, it will be an accurate gun. Period. But, people want tight guns, so they get them - and usually it takes 4+ boxes of ammunition to get them to run right since people these days don't know how to clean out the factory packing gunk and oil their guns.


The other thing you have to remember is that the squeeky wheels are usually the ones that complain about the guns - and this was the first/only all Kahr forum I was able to find. My Kahrs have always been 100% reliable, but I don't start threads about it - lots of people start ones about it NOT being 100% reliable. Glocks have a reputation since their introduction of being reliable - they were built loose for warfare. 1911's built to original army specs are the same way - good enough that they're still being used in warfare. Kahrs were not built for warfare. They were built to be accurate little powerhouses in compact sizes, that frankly is impressive that they were able to get them to run with how short the slide stroke is on most Kahrs.










Personal opinion: most people that shoot today aren't gun folks, and freak out in the smallest little thing that 50 years ago they would have taken care of in the garage with a file and marker. And my Kahr rattles like a baby rattle when in battery (much like a glock), but is spooky accurate (much like a glock, when you get used to the trigger). I like to think of my Kahr as a Glock with the proper grip angle, done right with a metal frame, that got bent over on the trigger reset :D

[jocko]

im really NOT trying to start trouble/brand war but most kahrs are defensive pistols that people count on to go bang every time.. and well kahr i think needs to try a littler harder esp. for there outrageus price, for 750-800+ for a sub compact 9mm it should not only function 100% out the box but it should also wash my car/walk my dog /do the dishes , i think you get it.

expensive like my Para Carry 9 that I paid over $800 and sent it back 3 times in less than 6 months time. It not only would not wash my car, or walk my dogs, that fu--er would not shoot often either..

I have a dishwasher, so no problem there:banplease:

[jocko]

Depends. It used to not be that way at all, and for good reason. Revolvers excluded :D

Obviously there are tolerances involved. A tightly machined firearm will generally be very repeatable, mechanically speaking.

A tightly machined, hand fitted factory firearm may exhibit .0001" tolerance between the frame and the slide on the rails, and it probably has a tolerance for being parallel to each other. By firing the firearm (or racking the slide a lot, then firing), you are performing the final fitting that would cost mucho buckos to be performed by hand. The final polishing and slight enlargement of tolerances. By doing this when the machine is performing the action it was designed to do, instead of before, you make sure that the proper areas are polished. Every gun, regardless if they come off the same cnc machining assembly that is capable of holding tolerances to .00001", will be slightly different. I'd rather not pay the factory $300 to hand fit/polish my gun, I would rather do it myself and then shoot it (others would rather just shoot and fit/polish it that way). I have no clue what tolerances Kahr holds mind you - I'm simply pulling numbers from my day job :)

Tightly machined guns, as I said before, are mechanically more repeatable. This makes them mechanically more accurate. Whether or not somebody has the talent to take advantage of them is a different ball game. But, people want tight guns (I don't), and companies produce tight guns to sell them. Hell, look at Kimbers - they claim the tightest tolerances in the 1911 field, and they have had the most jamming problems in 1911's that I have seen when ran more than leisurely. How many times have you been to a gun shop and have seen the armchair commando's try to feel for slop between the frame and slide?

I've seen it a lot after working in the industry - and it has no real impact on accuracy. If the barrel locks up consistently in the same spot on the slide, and the sights on the slide don't move, it will be an accurate gun. Period. But, people want tight guns, so they get them - and usually it takes 4+ boxes of ammunition to get them to run right since people these days don't know how to clean out the factory packing gunk and oil their guns.


The other thing you have to remember is that the squeeky wheels are usually the ones that complain about the guns - and this was the first/only all Kahr forum I was able to find. My Kahrs have always been 100% reliable, but I don't start threads about it - lots of people start ones about it NOT being 100% reliable. Glocks have a reputation since their introduction of being reliable - they were built loose for warfare. 1911's built to original army specs are the same way - good enough that they're still being used in warfare. Kahrs were not built for warfare. They were built to be accurate little powerhouses in compact sizes, that frankly is impressive that they were able to get them to run with how short the slide stroke is on most Kahrs.










Personal opinion: most people that shoot today aren't gun folks, and freak out in the smallest little thing that 50 years ago they would have taken care of in the garage with a file and marker. And my Kahr rattles like a baby rattle when in battery (much like a glock), but is spooky accurate (much like a glock, when you get used to the trigger). I like to think of my Kahr as a Glock with the proper grip angle, done right with a metal frame, that got bent over on the trigger reset :D


If one looks at a glock slide and a kahr slide they are damn near identical. Justin Moon was an admirer of Gaston Glock and incorporated alot into the upper slide. Now for the bottom part, IMO the kahr puts the glock to total shame as far as simplicity of parts and workings. Glocks are thought of as a simple lower section with few moving parts. compare the kahr lower section to the glock and not counting either total parts, I would say the kahr has 50% or more less parts, certainly far less actual moving parts. Other than sometimes a defective out of box trigger bar, I have never read of a cocking cam or trigger spring or anything in the lower section breaking.

Karh has squeezed alot in these sub frame guns but I dn't think they are pushing the envelope either with reliability. These gun companies are just not going to make a gun that is so so reliable, Just not cost effective let alone reputation wise. Ihave over 25,000 rounds through my PM9, it looks new, it feels new, it is still tight. My slide doesn't rattle near like my G19 does (which is a real shooter by the way). Kahrs you can shoot until the cows come home and they are very very ammo friendly to..

[jbaker]

i agree with everything stated above,ecept the lower half part, the glock lower half in my opinion is way eaiser to work with. i can completely strip a glock frame and put it back together in 2min 1 min to take apart 1 to put back together.. i really dont think kahr frames are that simple, great, but not glock simple

[jeep45238]

They're about as simple, but not as fast for assembly.

Ease of assembly =/= simpler design ;)

[jocko]

i agree with everything stated above,ecept the lower half part, the glock lower half in my opinion is way eaiser to work with. i can completely strip a glock frame and put it back together in 2min 1 min to take apart 1 to put back together.. i really dont think kahr frames are that simple, great, but not glock simple

u have done your glock many times also. Practice does make perfect. I certainly cannot strip my Glock down in any fashion with the speed you are stating. I also just stated that there are far less parts in the lower section of the kahr than the glocks No doubt if one knows how to strip a kahr lower section, u might be surprised at what little time it also takes, Maybe not 2 minutes, I don't know but that in itself is irrelevant.

I don't know of to many people who actually scew with the kahr lower sections as there is nothing mod wise one can do to it and I have yet to read of a lower section cocking cam ever breaking or the trigger spring return ever breaking. The trigger bar on the metal kahrs and polmer kahrs can be replaced by removing the side cover. really a mute point as each is easy and has its own quirks also.

[jbaker]

glocks lower and im just thinking as i dont have a glock on hand has11 parts 14 if you include pins
1take down lever
2tdl spring
3locking block
4slide stop
5trigger
6 trig bar this(5&6) is?able as trig and bar are connected but can be taken apart
7connector
8ejector housing
9 trig spring
10mag release
11 mag release spring
& 3 pins
i dont think im missing anything
how many is kahr's lower im not saying your wrong as i dont know how many kahr has ,i guess i can look in my manuel but im lazy

[jbaker]

u have done your glock many times also. Practice does make perfect. I certainly cannot strip my Glock down in any fashion with the speed you are stating. I also just stated that there are far less parts in the lower section of the kahr than the glocks No doubt if one knows how to strip a kahr lower section, u might be surprised at what little time it also takes, Maybe not 2 minutes, I don't know but that in itself is irrelevant.

I don't know of to many people who actually scew with the kahr lower sections as there is nothing mod wise one can do to it and I have yet to read of a lower section cocking cam ever breaking or the trigger spring return ever breaking. The trigger bar on the metal kahrs and polmer kahrs can be replaced by removing the side cover. really a mute point as each is easy and has its own quirks also.
2 min is if im trying to really go fast , i really dont know how we got to this , im in no way argueing with you, and i do think kahrs are great OR I WOULDN'T have traded my g19 for the pm45, i want to learn the kahrs lower, but it just bc i like to mess with stuff/learn how things work, if any thing breaks or i have probs i like to fix it myself even if i have a waranty (unless its craxy expensive to do it myself) it just makes me feel good to know i can do it

[ripley16]

After or When Glock shaves 10 ounces of weight off their small .45acp pistol, Then we can compare the two.

Otherwise the differences are too great. Kahr pushes the reliability envelope at the expense of capacity and of course reliability. Glock pushes reliability at the expense of weight, size and concealability.

The smallest guns are inherently less reliable and it is the smallest Kahrs about which people have the majority of issues. The larger Kahrs are boringly reliable, as are most Glocks.

Kahr pushes the envelope...Glock doesn't.

[jocko]

glocks lower and im just thinking as i dont have a glock on hand has11 parts 14 if you include pins
1take down lever
2tdl spring
3locking block
4slide stop
5trigger
6 trig bar this(5&6) is?able as trig and bar are connected but can be taken apart
7connector
8ejector housing
9 trig spring
10mag release
11 mag release spring
& 3 pins
i dont think im missing anything
how many is kahr's lower im not saying your wrong as i dont know how many kahr has ,i guess i can look in my manuel but im lazy

every part in the lower section comes to 17, u get the:third:

[jbaker]

every part in the lower section comes to 17, u get the:third:
17 in the glock or the kahr like i said i could have missed something