Ball vs. Expansion

[ryoung]

Deleted

[jocko]

some of these new defense rounds sure will give you the expansion you are looking for. The corbon dpx round certainly will. The all copper barnes HP bullet will expand 100% every time and retain 100% of its bullet weight also. There are other mfg-er brands out their also that are probably just as good.

give me a good hp any day, but #1 has to be TOTAL RELIABILITY OF THE ROUND YOU ARE CARRYING ALSO. No doubt it seems the 45 runs better with hardball and the corban powerball will be the best of both worlds. Most of these new semi 45's today will shoot about anything you canput in the pipe. Test but verify...

[jeep45238]

You need penetration to get to vital organs.

There is also no such thing as a one shot one kill - last year there was a con who took 17 .40S&W gold dots out of a Glock 22, center of mass (22 shots total hit him) - and he kept fighting. Took 5 minutes for him to bleed out. What was he on? Nothing, system showed he had less than a beer in his system.

I value penetration more than expansion - but I value both highly. With that being said, I also haven't found a single report where somebody was killed with a .45 but wouldn't have died from a 9mm, nor one where they lived through a 9mm but would have been killed by a .45.

We're talking close in ballistics here. Bullet weight doesn't matter a whole lot, nor does speed. Modern HP designs expand well below the velocity of a 230 grain .45. Just keep in mind that it's the placement that matters, not the caliber, or bullet design. Light and fast will do just as good of a job as slow and heavy.



Pistol rounds poke holes in things, rifle rounds tear **** up.

[jeep45238]

I do not factor barrel length nor make/model in my thinking.

My reasoning is simple. If you think that your shorter barrel puts you at a disadvantage, then why are you carrying it? Is that potential compromise worth risking your life over? Only you can decide.

[jocko]

OK but, are you guys factoring in the short barrel vs. a full size 1911 or other brand 5 incher?

Jocko......Right now I do carry Powerball, in my CCW just for this reason.

Jeep...... also agree with shot placement counting


factoring in any particular brand of gun or barrel length. I really have not seen any PM45 or P45 barrel penetration tests with different ammo h.p. the kahr PM series with the 3.14" bbl and the P series with the 3.64" bbl, might show differently than the 5" bbl on the 1911's but that being said, these new rounds today like the dpx all copper bullet expand perfectily in the little 380 guns with shorter barrels yets, so I am just of the opinion that some of these good defense rounds today will indeed expand fully in short barreled 45"s.. If u wanna make a perfectly roundhole fmj is the way to go. If you wanna make a bigger hole with more trauma involved also, then a good hp will be ur choice, If u want both, probalby need to go to the 40 cal. or 10mm version..

[jocko]

OK but, are you guys factoring in the short barrel vs. a full size 1911 or other brand 5 incher?

Jocko......Right now I do carry Powerball, in my CCW just for this reason.

Jeep...... also agree with shot placement counting


the powerball in my PM9 and also when I can find it the dpx round. Both work great, no doubt from tests done the dpx gives better expansion to. a very nice round.. again #1 is reliability in the round working perfect in the gun..

[medezyner]

Don’t overlook the legal ramifications of FMJ passing through the intended BG and continuing on to parts unknown. We all know one of the basic safety rules for firearms: know what’s beyond your target, but in high stress situations, will we really be able to comprehend that person who came out of nowhere 50 feet behind the BG? I pray to God I do, but realistically, I'm not too sure. The 45 is a low velocity round, but that’s no guarantee it will not pass through if you miss bone. My wife will be pissed if I fire a FMJ and it passes through the BG and hits one of her antiques!

[swampman]

I have read several articles concerning the issue of expansion of 45 cal. ammunition.

Here is the issue: 45acp. is a relatively slow moving round. Couple that with the aspect of being fired from a short barrel like a Kahr PM45. Many of the articles suggest that the lower velocities will just not give great expansion in hollow point ammo.

Some suggest that you may be better off shooting a heavy FMJ round such as 230gr. Ball. It will have fewer FTF issues and , will pack a big heavy punch. Versus delivering a lighter projectile that may or may not expand.

I can see some logic to both side of this issue.

What do you guy's think ?

AND, PLEASE, STAY ON TOPIC !!!!!!!!

( yeah, right ! Like they are gonna do that..............)

use a hollow point that functions reliably and if it doesnt expand then you have the best of both worlds. :D

[jocko]

I have no doubt that a round like the corbon dpx will give full expansion out of any kahr and Horandy critical defense round also. gold dots do it with ease. I think we tend to maybe under rate 45 cal and also kahr for its short barrel. We have made some tremendous strides in good defense hp rounds that do as advertised. I have seen 380 corbon dpx rounds in tests that would blow ones mind with the perfect petal expansion that corbon says it will produce..

There has tobe some good ammo tests with some of these short barrel semi's out there, one just needs to google around some to find the material he is looking for. there is always someone out there testing certain guns and barrel lengths with certain brands of ammo...

[swampman]

I have no doubt that a round like the corbon dpx will give full expansion out of any kahr and Horandy critical defense round also. gold dots do it with ease. I think we tend to maybe under rate 45 cal and also kahr for its short barrel. We have made some tremendous strides in good defense hp rounds that do as advertised. I have seen 380 corbon dpx rounds in tests that would blow ones mind with the perfect petal expansion that corbon says it will produce..

There has tobe some good ammo tests with some of these short barrel semi's out there, one just needs to google around some to find the material he is looking for. there is always someone out there testing certain guns and barrel lengths with certain brands of ammo...
I saw on the kel tec forum the other day a balistics chart,and all the rounds were fired from the p3at and all performed as advertised.:)

[jocko]

I saw on the kel tec forum the other day a balistics chart,and all the rounds were fired from the p3at and all performed as advertised.:)

where i had read the 380 tests at. those guys over there go to great lengths to test out their little guns with different brands of ammo. being kt make sno 45, we don't see their tests over there. a shame, their 380 tests are IMO awesome.

I know for a fact when corbon designed the 380 dpx rounds they used two test guns for all their 380 ammo design testing and both were the kel tecs back then. So it stands to reason the Ruger lcp and kahr P380 and the taurus which are basicallyt he same length barrel would all test out the same way to. There has to be some good testing out there one 3.14" bbl kahrs in the 45 caliber. To many kahr 45's out there for some testers to not make a chart..

[10Kahrs]

Good topic and I tried to find some research on the same subject because I carry a PM45 for CCW (I also own PM9 40) but I did not find any concret answers but a more important question arised. I think the most important thing is IF you are going to carry a subcompact gun for CCW what is the BEST platform for that SIZE pistol is a 9mm or 40 S&W a better choice when fired from a 3" barrel than a 45 from a 3"? We have alot of info out there when it comes to longer barrels so we can decide from there and make your choice. There is not alot of "test" comparisons out there in the subcompact dept. I think sometimes we make choices based on caliber first and then size when in fact it should be the other way around if you do want to carry sub-compact or mouse gun what is the best round for that size gun/barrel? I like the 45 cal for S/D but I would be willing to bet that a 9mm sub will perform better than a 45 when fired from a 3" barrel and a 45 is best when fired from a 4-5" barrel. I guess it's alot like the 357 and 38's Most ballastic info conclude that you are better off using 38+p ammo out of a short barrel 357 than you are using 125gr 357 all the 357 does is give you more recoil and less performance(when fired from a short barrel). I use 185gr golden saber for my PM45 I like to stay in the middle weight range. Alot of you guys like the light weight ammo (165gr) cor-bon? Just something to think about when it comes to the lighter grain bullets yes they expand better and go faster but they don't penatrate barriers very well. Maybe there are some guys on the board that can do some "redneck" ballastic testing for us. I would but I just don't have the place to do it.

[unclenunzie]

probably been posted before but this website might help with barrel lengths...

Ballistics by the inch (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html)

[getsome]

I did a "redneck ballastic test" with my LCP using Horniday critical defense .380 ammo....2 shots both penetrated 9 inchs if soaking wet phone books with a folded towel over the top to simulate clothing....both bullets expanded to approx .45 cal and maintained their jackets....next were 2 shots of .380 corbon powerball which performed exactly the same...picture perfect expansion...shots were from approx 6 feet away....(at $33.00 a box thats all I could stomach shooting those babies):eek:... but I was very pleased with the performance of both....Next up was 2 shots of remington golden saber .40 cal 185 grain (my personal carry ammo) from my CW40...Both shots penetrated 11 inchs of books and left a channel about an inch in diameter...(Bad A$$ looking hole) the recovered bullets were intact and both expanded to almost 1/2 inch....very impressive!!!...The only other .40 cal SD ammo I had available was some 185 grain Federal Hydra Shok...The gun dealer threw in a box of 50 when I bought the CW40...I'm not sure how old and what generation Hydra Shok this ammo is, the box looked pretty old and worn but it was free so I replaced the phone books with new ones after soaking for several hours...2 shots of the Hydra Shok bullets penetrated 12 inchs but neither one expanded uniformly and looked to have tumbled but still expanded past .45 cal....So there is the "getsome redneck good ole boy ammo test" it isn't very scientific but it sure was fun and it proved to me that with good modern SD ammo the short barrel pistols will more than do the job....

[10Kahrs]

I did some backyard testin on my LCP 380 I only had remington golden sabers 102gr with me at the time and did the wet phonebook thing too It pretty impressive for a 380 I would like to try 45 185gr rem GS from my Pm45 vs 230gr on some phonebooks just to get an idea

[johnh]

If your gun feeds .45 JHPs reliably, then I see no reason not to use them. At worst they don't expand and you have an FMJ essentially. At best they expand and you have a .70+ caliber hole. I carry 230 JHPs in my CDP when using it for CCW. A little extra mass for penetration over 185s.

John

[10Kahrs]

Good point I think the 45 ball for self-defense is intended for the some 1911 pistols that don't feed HP well.

[jeep45238]

probably been posted before but this website might help with barrel lengths...

Ballistics by the inch (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html)

Excellent resource. I've done some work with excel using their chrono numbers on the TC concerning barrel lengths from 2 to 5 inches in 9x19, .40, and .45ACP. It has long confirmed my feelings that .40short and weak is more potent than .45ACP in pretty much every barrel length (hence the violent muzzle snap associated with 35Ksi+ pressures). It gives up .050 of an inch (big whoop), can run bullet weights from 135 to 200 grains using commercial ammunition to tailor the recoil to your liking, and splits the capacity between the 9mm Nato and the versatile .45ACP.

I simply calculated the ft/lbs of energy for each barrel/caliber/ammunition possibility. I then tallied a mean average of ft/lbs and fps per barrel length using all ammunition. I then used the 5" barrel as a baseline, showing what % of energy the 4", 3", and 2" held respective to the 5", and all longer barrels. The results made me chuckle at the folks that claim .380ACP is too wimpy, yet carry a PM9 or similar pistol (hint: the .380 KelTec with Corbon JHP makes 220 ft lbs)

Without further adue:

45ACP

5" bbl
mean FPS : 1048
mean ft/lbs : 468

4" bbl
mean FPS : 1003
mean ft/lbs : 430
92% of 5" retained

3" bbl
mean FPS : 912
mean ft/lbs : 355
76% of 5" retained
83% of 4" retained

2" bbl
mean FPS : 858
mean ft/lbs : 314
67% of 5" retained
73% of 4" retained
89% of 3" retained



.40S&W

5" bbl
mean FPS : 1193
mean ft/lbs : 490

4" bbl
mean FPS : 1137
mean ft/lbs : 445
91% of 5" retained

3" bbl
mean FPS : 1071
mean ft/lbs : 395
81% of 5" retained
89% of 4" retained

2" bbl
mean FPS : 986
mean ft/lbs : 335
68% of 5" retained
75% of 4" retained
84% of 3" retained


9x19mm (9mm Luger / 9mm NAT0)

5" bbl
mean FPS : 1233
mean ft/lbs : 399

4" bbl
mean FPS : 1174
mean ft/lbs : 362
91% of 5" retained

3" bbl
mean FPS : 1105
mean ft/lbs : 321
80% of 5" retained
89% of 4" retained

2" bbl
mean FPS : 1020
mean ft/lbs : 274
68% of 5" retained
76% of 4" retained
85% of 3" retained