Wilson Combat, Ed Brown and Les Baer. Are they worth it?

[Barth]

I've never even held, much less shot, one of these high end 1911s.
Are they really worth the extreme price?
Can you really tell they are that much better than a Springfield Loaded or a Dan Wesson Valor?

$3000 to $5000 dollars for a handgun just seems like crazy talk to me.
Of course folks wear Rolex watches too.
As for me, I don't even own a Timex.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-99c2rWrsMp4/UHWgxUTIggI/AAAAAAAAVuA/sp3EOW9ruSs/s1600/556498_10151139941830982_709796091_n.jpg

[Bawanna]

I held a lower end Wilson once, never shot it or took it apart but just holding it, it exuded quality, hard to explain. Weather it's worth it or not is hard to say, if I had that much disposable income (not gonna happen) I'd have one. I think everyone should have one before they cross the river but probably won't happen.

I had a Timex long ago, it finally didn't keep on ticking and I'd had lessers ever since. Right now I got a 20 $ Casio on the wrist.

I keep waiting for a Patek (I had to look em up, they are more than a Wilson) from Jocko on the expensive watch redistribution program but I don't think he's sending it to the right address.

[Longitude Zero]

That depends upon the individual. To me they are NOT worth what they cost and here is why. A box stock Glock will shoot 95% or better than what those high end guns will shoot. Also ask the if they have a 1/2 MOA accuracy guarantee or ANY accuracy guarantee. The most you will hear is crickets.

I have fired Wilson, Ed Brown, Strayer/Tripp, Briley, Heine and many other pistolsmith guns before.

The "hand fitting" argurment is for the most part BS/Poppycock/Rubbish in todays manufacturing environment. The overwhelming majority of so called pistolsmiths get there frames and sldes from only of about three different companies. There is a firm in OK that supplies the bulk of frames and slide to the industry. They are dimensionally so accurate that only very minor, if any handfitting is needed.

To conclude if I am going to pay that much for a Wilson, Bill Wilson himself will do 100% of the work on the weapon or they can urinate up a rope. I am not paying for a flunky to build the gun and put the so called big name pistolero on it.

[340pd]

Opposing views are what make a market. One of these is worth 10 Glocks to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/EdBrownKobraCarry.jpg

[Bawanna]

I don't know how it's possible but I agree with both of you 100%. I'm sure Bill Wilson probably hasn't laid a hand on a 1911 build in years and if I got one I too would like one that he gave personal attention too. Same with Ed Brown, Les Bauer or the others.

BUT like Longitude said others will get the job done in fine fashion for pennies on the dollar comparatively. My Cbob is probably the most refined I'll ever own and I'm perfectly fine and content with that. I'm happy to own it and most likely will never part with it either.

[gb6491]

I've never even held, much less shot, one of these high end 1911s.
Are they really worth the extreme price?
Can you really tell they are that much better than a Springfield Loaded or a Dan Wesson Valor?

$3000 to $5000 dollars for a handgun just seems like crazy talk to me.
Of course folks wear Rolex watches too.
As for me, I don't even own a Timex.


I held a lower end Wilson once, never shot it or took it apart but just holding it, it exuded quality, hard to explain. Weather it's worth it or not is hard to say, if I had that much disposable income (not gonna happen) I'd have one. I think everyone should have one before they cross the river but probably won't happen.

I had a Timex long ago, it finally didn't keep on ticking and I'd had lessers ever since. Right now I got a 20 $ Casio on the wrist.

...
Like Bawanna, I've handled a lower end Wilson (http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-xtac.asp) and it truly did exude quality.
Is it "that much better than a Springfield Loaded or a Dan Wesson Valor?" If you're talking build quality (fit, attention to detail, etc.), then, yes, when compared to a Springfield Loaded, but not so much when compared to the Valor.
Actually shooting the guns:
First off, they all use the same power plant.
Durability, I'll give the edge to top end guns mainly because they should have the very best internals. Frames and slides make for a more even playing field.
A lower dollar gun can be just as reliable as a top end gun.
Top end guns probably are more accurate from the bench than many of their lower priced brethren, but the shooter may not be able to realize that accuracy when shooing them offhand. To point, my LGS has a Nighthawk GRP (about the cost of the Wilson I linked to) as a rental gun. It's an exceptional pistol. However, shooting it head to head against my Kimber TLE II, I don't shoot it any better than my Kimber.

So, yes, there are material perks that come with higher end 1911s. Do they always justify the differences in cost? To me, that's a hard question to answer. I would love to have that Wilson and could swing the deal if I wanted to, but in my heart of hearts I know I won't get any better performance out of it (or me) than I get from several of the other 1911s I own. Darn, now you made think: I can't shoot several guns at once, so why not consolidate them into one...say a Wilson X-Tac.

...and I don't even own a watch anymore:)
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

"I can't shoot several guns at once, so why not consolidate them into one...say a Wilson X-Tac. "



I've had this thought many many times myself. I just can't get past getting rid of any to consolidate to "The One". I think it is a wise plan and worthy. I just can't seem to pull it off.

I am not switching around much and sticking with my Cbob for carry but still can't part with the rest of them for grocery money or reloading supplies.

Course with a 1911 as primary they all pretty much act the same so I'm not really putting myself in a disadvantage, at least not anymore than I already am.

[Alfonse]

I was just looking at high end 1911s yesterday. I sure liked the approach on these Cabot pistols, not hand fitted but ground to virtually exact dimensions. The polish on the stainless ones made me smile too.

http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/ (http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/)

Yes, if I was feeling flush, I might buy one of those.

Yes, you can feel the quality in a really nice car, motorcycle, piano or home. However, most folks who own them don't drive their Ferrari's into work each day.

So, for the people who buy them, they must be worth it.

[doublebarrel]

It's not a question of if it's worth it,it's is it worth it to you?A Lamborgini isn't worh it to me but it is to some people.A lower priced 1911 will serve the same purpose,won't look as nice and may be slightly less accurate but will get the job done.I have a $400 Rock Island Armory that has been 100% reliable and wouldn't trade it for one of the fancy ones because I know it works.If I spent that much on a firearm I would be afraid to ding it up using it so it would just sit in the safe.

[Bawanna]

Thanks fellas. Had to have the medics next door devibulate me when I looked at the price list. Those are fine looking pistols. The wood on that American Standard made me cry!

Gorgeous stuff.

You still got all the money from that Jeep sale don't ya. That ought to be enough to get into one of those.

Tell your missus I said it was ok. We'll see if that flies any better than the Hindenburg.

[Barth]

Good stuff.
Thanks for all the quality input everybody!

I'm on several forums.
This one is likely the smallest.
But has a great membership base with broad and deep experience in all things guns.

I value all of your opinions and am glad to be here!

[Alfonse]

Bawanna,

There are lots of things that I would be happy playing with for just one weekend. These days high end sports cars, an offshore boat, etc. fall into that category. I don't want to own them, even the ones I could. But I would love to play with one of each for a weekend.

I was looking at high end 1911s from a marketing perspective, playing with business plans. For me, it is comforting that somebody is buying such things in the current economy. They will may hold their value better than gold, and could be much more useful if things degenerate.

[Barth]

Bawanna,

There are lots of things that I would be happy playing with for just one weekend. These days high end sports cars, an offshore boat, etc. fall into that category. I don't want to own them, even the ones I could. But I would love to play with one of each for a weekend.

I was looking at high end 1911s from a marketing perspective, playing with business plans. For me, it is comforting that somebody is buying such things in the current economy. They will may hold their value better than gold, and could be much more useful if things degenerate.

The Shelby in my avatar is a rental my friend...

[JFootin]

http://cabotgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/south_paw_composition.jpg
The South Paw. I want! I want! I want! Of course, I'd be walking instead of driving in order to afford one!

[Bawanna]

The Shelby in my avatar is a rental my friend...

I think he's actually scheming up a plan to explain the virtues of buying cars, boats, high end guns as an investment capital.

I've used the same ploy with my wife for years and actually the concept is sound, I've certainly lost alot less money on guns than I have on cars, boats, motorcycles etc.

I hope it works for ya Alfonse. They are excellent investments and as you say very useful if things turn sour as it were.

If you get one, I'm for sure coming over, I won't be much for conversation but I'm be heck at fondling yer a piece.

I thought you were coming over here? What happened, smoke go away?

[Bawanna]

http://cabotgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/south_paw_composition.jpg
The South Paw. I want! I want! I want! Of course, I'd be walking instead of driving in order to afford one!

I built some grips for a true left hand Randall for a fella once. Tried to buy it, not sure why. He had it for sale and I was trying to get if for a left hand officer here that didn't deserve it.
I made a set of grips for it (without the gun, dont try this at home) and sent them to him. He decided to keep it. Haven't heard from him in a while, he worked security on the Alaska Pipeline for years.

They are pricy too but for a lefty it would be the ticket.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/RandallwithHopkegrips001-1.jpg

[Alfonse]

On quality, CM9s have not stopped the sale of PM9s. The folks who buy the P series know the price difference.

Maybe a limited run of commemorative PMJ9s would sell for a premium.

I am just playing with ideas for my next product oriented company. I find there its usually no competition and the margins are highest if building the best.

Of the Cabot pistol, the National Standard Deluxe is the one that speaks to me. At those prices, what is a couple grand more for the best.

I do worry when a man wants to fondle my piece....

:)

We have had rain. It its a gorgeous smoke free fall now.

[Alfonse]

Barth, A rental Shelby would be perfect for my use.

All the fun I want and no maintenance. I wouldn't even have to wash it.

[Barth]

Barth, A rental Shelby would be perfect for my use.

All the fun I want and no maintenance. I wouldn't even have to wash it.

LOL I had her for seven days.
Every morning a filled the tank and washed the Black Beauty.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo04/53/05/268967613951__1338249684000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=falsehttps://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo16/6d/32/aea85c13e8a1__1338238270000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=falsehttps://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo23/f3/23/b40a5f75ab8d__1338238270000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=falsehttps://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo40/a7/f0/9d370d638fb5__1338238270000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false

[Alfonse]

That its sweet. Alright, I probably would wash it.

[JFootin]

I built some grips for a true left hand Randall for a fella once. Tried to buy it, not sure why. He had it for sale and I was trying to get if for a left hand officer here that didn't deserve it.
I made a set of grips for it (without the gun, dont try this at home) and sent them to him. He decided to keep it. Haven't heard from him in a while, he worked security on the Alaska Pipeline for years.

They are pricy too but for a lefty it would be the ticket.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/RandallwithHopkegrips001-1.jpg

Well, I keep looking for those people from PCH with the flowers, the big check and the video camera to show up at my door. Still waiting... :blushing:

I'm working on a Christmas present for myself that is within my means: the Caracal C (http://www.caracal.ae/new/caracal-c.php). After helping my shooting buddy put a few boxes of ammo through his new one, I am excited! I don't think any of those high end 1911s could exceed the build quality of the Caracal. When I took the slide off, everything inside was smooth, finished and shiny just like the outside. No tool marks, no flash, no rough spots. And it was a tack driver at the range, eating everything we fed it and tearing the heart out of our targets. Minimal muzzle jump, almost like a 22. 15+1 and about the same size as a G19, but it manages to be thinner feeling and more ergonomic to grip. It has an ambidextrous mag release, which pleases this lefty. I already have a holster picked out for it, too. LOL! :D

[PattayaPistol]

I never thought of my LB as a high end gun. I just know it's accurate, reliable and damned sure pretty. It is my only shiny gun as all my others are black.

http://imageshack.us/a/img682/469/dsc00343b.jpg


Cheers
PP

[Bawanna]

Damn sure pretty. Sweet.

[Barth]

I never thought of my LB as a high end gun. I just know it's accurate, reliable and damned sure pretty. It is my only shiny gun as all my others are black.

http://imageshack.us/a/img682/469/dsc00343b.jpg


Cheers
PP

That qualifies as a high end gun in my book.
Very Nice!

[JFootin]

Beautiful! :)

[O'Dell]

I will say unequivocally that the high priced pistols are not worth it to me. My current collection after selling a couple this week is fifteen guns with ten manufacturers represented. Of those and all that I've recently sold, only two have required a trip back to correct a problem, an STI and a Detonics. Both are or were quite expensive. The Detonics was over thirty years old when I bought it, and only required the mags to be rebuilt and some tuning, so I'll cut it some slack. The STI, however, was brand new and needed a new, stronger recoil assy and a new barrel to function correctly. I'll also mention that the Kimber didn't go back, but did require me to buy new mags, and Kimbers aren't cheap. The Kahrs, HK's, SIG's, S&W's, Springfields, and Ruger were fine right out of the box.

As to cars, I'm happy with what I've got. The Prius works fine for work or for when it's raining, and gets over 60 mpg doing it. The Corvette convertibles are great for everything else or just having fun.

I just looked at my ten dollar government issue watch, [the Rolex which was a gift has been packed away for years] and see it's time to crank up the Dyson and vacuum the house. The Dyson doesn't clean one bit better than the Electroluxes, Bissells, or Hoovers I've had before, but I'm hoping it will last longer. [probably not]

[Bawanna]

Only one word on vacuum cleaners my friend. "Kirby".

Not that I have the slightest clue about such unmanly things as vacuuming, clothes washing or having feet small enough to stand close to the kitchen sink to wash dishes mind ya.

I gotta go out and rope and brand a few steers before supper.

[JFootin]

One very obvious thing that Dyson hasn't comprehended is that his vacuums are way, way too expensive.

[MikeyKahr]

Expensive, yes, but they are quite a super-duper-picker-upper. We used our old vacuum on our carpets then ran our new Dyson back over them, you should have seen how much additional dirt came up with the Dyson. Mad respect for the Kirby too, they are great as well.

[ltxi]

Only one word on vacuum cleaners my friend. "Kirby"...............


Nope....Miele...fo' sure

[ltxi]

But....back on topic...

If I didn't roll my own working 1911s or needed a super accurate one, I'd definitely consider one of the highenders.

[Alfonse]

Surely you guys are talking about shop vacs!

[ltxi]

Nope, sorry....this is what you get when you hang out with old guys.

[mr surveyor]

all I know is that mrs. surv's kirby really sux

[O'Dell]

Only one word on vacuum cleaners my friend. "Kirby".



The weirdest vacuum I ever had was one of those robotic cleaners. You just turn it on and let it do it's thing. When it was low on power, it would go back to its base, recharge, and then pick up where it left off. The problem in my house was that when it got back in the master bedroom or bath it was over a hundred feet and around two corners from its charging station in the breakfast room and would get lost. Also, occasionally it would get stuck and just sit there pitifully calling for help. The really delightful thing was my cat's reaction. She is terrified of vacuums, but she would stalk this one from four or five feet behind it. Of course, then it would make a 180 back toward her, and she would take off like a shot. It wasn't much of a vacuum, but it was worth the price in entertainment value.

[muggsy]

If you buy a high end gun will it be your EDC? Will you subject it to bumps, bruises and holster wear, or will it become a safe queen? Give me a gun that I can manhandle and enjoy. I'm a shooter, not a collector.

[PattayaPistol]

If you buy a high end gun will it be your EDC? Will you subject it to bumps, bruises and holster wear, or will it become a safe queen? Give me a gun that I can manhandle and enjoy. I'm a shooter, not a collector.

Wow, good for you. :target:

I am a shooter and a collector.

Cheers
PP

[Rio Vista Slim]

I would enjoy owning a "high-end" 1911, although realistically I would probably never carry it.

As a moderator and gun writer for another forum, I've tested products from Wilson, Nighthawk, Volkmann, and Cabot. I even visited Penn United Technologies, Inc., where Cabot Guns are manufactured. I've seen, first hand, how those pistols are manufactured, and I was mightily impressed.

In slow, bench-rest shooting, I've been able to shoot better groups with the semi-custom and custom pistols than with my Colts or Rock Island Armory pistols. But that type of shooting is not what I normally do, and I'm only slightly better with a Cabot or Volkmann than my Colts when shooting combat drills or plinking.

In the preceding paragraph, I mentioned the two brands I would choose if financially able to do so.

[Alfonse]

The descriptions of the manufacturing process for Cabot on their web site are enough to make me want one. But, I'm a geek about that sort of thing.

Certainly it would not be an EDC for me. That's not the point. I would enjoy it nonetheless.

[ltxi]

If you buy a high end gun will it be your EDC? Will you subject it to bumps, bruises and holster wear, or will it become a safe queen? Give me a gun that I can manhandle and enjoy. I'm a shooter, not a collector.

If that's what I bought it for, of course.

[wayneo1]

I would like to get to Wilson 1 day and yes I would wear everyday.

[Weebz77]

Going from a Taurus 1911 to a Dan Wesson CCO was a price increase of 150%, and I would do it again every time. But, I'm not sure if it would be worth it to me to go up another 150% for a Wilson or Nighthawk. I've never held or shot a pistol in that price range, but I can't imagine a 1911 shooting, feeling, functioning any better than my Dan Wesson. And, I'm not afraid to carry it because if the durability of he Duty Treatment, which is he most unbelievable product improvement item I have ever seen in any industry. Could you imagine if the finish on your Corvette was scratch-proof?

I'm more experienced with rifles than I am with pistols, and I can say that, at least for me, there is "value received" in buying a $4000-$5000 custom hunting rifle over a good production rifle (Weatherby, Remington, Browning, etc.). So, I'm betting that an astute pistol shooter/owner would be able to discern and appreciate the difference between my $1400 CCO and a $3500 Wilson. I better buy one and find out.

[wayneo1]

I. Like the way you think.

[Barth]

Going from a Taurus 1911 to a Dan Wesson CCO was a price increase of 150%, and I would do it again every time. But, I'm not sure if it would be worth it to me to go up another 150% for a Wilson or Nighthawk. I've never held or shot a pistol in that price range, but I can't imagine a 1911 shooting, feeling, functioning any better than my Dan Wesson. And, I'm not afraid to carry it because if the durability of he Duty Treatment, which is he most unbelievable product improvement item I have ever seen in any industry. Could you imagine if the finish on your Corvette was scratch-proof?

I'm more experienced with rifles than I am with pistols, and I can say that, at least for me, there is "value received" in buying a $4000-$5000 custom hunting rifle over a good production rifle (Weatherby, Remington, Browning, etc.). So, I'm betting that an astute pistol shooter/owner would be able to discern and appreciate the difference between my $1400 CCO and a $3500 Wilson. I better buy one and find out.

I've asked the high end 1911 question before on multiple forums.
And done a good deal of research of which I feel I'm pretty good at.
Your assessment seems to hold true.
In particular, the Dan Wesson guns appear to stand out in the ~$1,500 range
as comparable to the best of the best.

I don't doubt a real aficionado can easily tell the difference between a Valor and a Nighthawk.
But I'm not at all sure I could...
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l4hwf5lBmR1qcvm1zo1_500.jpg

[pacman225]

If I had the money I would definitely buy one. With all the high end 1911's you basically have them build it to your specifications. They are fitted and tuned to your needs. Les Baers are test fired with either Remington Golden Sabers or Federal Hydra-Shoks. Fit and finish are outstanding. Forged steel frames and slides and even a lot of the smaller parts are barstock versus mim on the lower end 1911's. All the bells and whistles.