Double Tap Drill

[newCW45guy]

Hi all,

New to Kahr and this forum. I recently purchased a CW45 and well for concealed carry not sure it's going to work.

Main issue is a quick double tap. I'm well used to full power 10mm DA/SA or SA/SA double taps with a SW1976 and DAO with a 9mm VP70Z and even the much smaller more recoil SW Bodyguard 380 - which I can double tap reliably.

However with the recoil of this light gun it seems my grip also loosens as I release the trigger on the long reset. With the second round resulting about half the time in a stovepipe.

I know I can't limp wrist or weak grip this one... range proved that.

Since double tap is a huge part of my range work I seem to learn new tricks with the Kahr. Any suggestions?

[kerby9mm]

The problem I have with my mk9 & 40 is sometimes missing the reset. These guns IMO are concealable and quick to bring into action with no safetys but require practice to become proficient with.

[ripley16]

Try a grip sleeve on your CW45. It may lessen the amount your grip is loosened during recoil. Some have a finger bump for a little added stability. The reset thing is just a function of familiarity and practice. If you can double tap a VP70, you should be able to double tap anything.;) The fact is though, the Kahr trigger is not as fast as SA or DA/SA, but practice allows one to be "fast enough" A double tap should be accomplished at the speed at which you're able to get two shoots in the same general area. No shame in that time being longer with one gun than another. Physics dictates here, as well as the mechanics of the pistol.

[newCW45guy]

Just to be clear I didn't miss the reset once. And ripley16 must know what the trigger is like on the VP70 Long and heavy but the gun is heavy for it's 9mm cartridge.

I have ordered a set of Traction Grips for the CW45. Couldn't go with a grip sleeve as the gun has a CT Laserguard. We'll see if they help. www.tractiongrips.com (http://kahrtalk.com/www.tractiongrips.com)

[josp]

I'm very familiar with the VP70z as well. If you shoot that well, the lighter and smoother trigger of the kahr should help. I have an Agrip on my kahrs and have no issues with the grip loosening. Actually makes it better as it gets wet through perspiration.

[JERRY]

if youre competent with a double action revolver youll do fine with a kahr.

[HalfCocked]

I assume you have done the break in. I went from the Bodyguard 380 to the CM9. If you could double on that 380 trigger I don't think the Kahr will be a problem. They do take some run in time. Kahr says 200 rounds. It took almost 300 on my 9MM before things worked right every time.

[newCW45guy]

I assume you have done the break in. I went from the Bodyguard 380 to the CM9. If you could double on that 380 trigger I don't think the Kahr will be a problem. They do take some run in time. Kahr says 200 rounds. It took almost 300 on my 9MM before things worked right every time.

I'm only one range visit in... 100rds of Winchester white box and 50 rounds of Winchester Defender.

I tried loose grip and limp wristing which almost always resulted in a stovepipe. This is a routine I do purposely to error proof. I'm pretty sure the double tap is me loosening my grip due to recoil. The Bodyguard I didn't have that problem... limp/loose it cycled perfectly. And thus my dilema... I can with absolute certainty empty the .380 into BG before I could clear a stovepipe in the .45. Six rounds of Hornady Critical Defense in albeit a smaller caliber or 1 .45 count one thousand squeeze grip harder and then trigger. In a shoot situation do I or anyone have that discipline?

(I do have big hands and am used to bigger guns with sometimes far more power/recoil though the mass of the CW45 fully loaded is under 2lbs seems to be pushing it. At this point I'm thinking I could get off second or more shots with my old SA Super Blackhawk .44Mag with *very* hot loads more reliably quicker)

Can anyone limp wrist/loose grip a CW45 and say it positively cycles after a good break in? This is personal defense and less than optimal conditions do occur.

[newCW45guy]

if youre competent with a double action revolver youll do fine with a kahr.

I am.. and BTW I've yet to see a stovepipe on a revolver :)

I'm giving it a couple hundred more rounds with the traction grips before I decide live or die and something else.

[HalfCocked]

I'm giving it a couple hundred more rounds with the traction grips before I decide live or die and something else.

good idea.

I found the CM9 to be a much different gun after 300 rounds. Everything just sort of settled and got smooth. I never felt that way with the Bodyguard but that is why they make so many different guns, it ain't one size fits all

[newCW45guy]

good idea.

I found the CM9 to be a much different gun after 300 rounds. Everything just sort of settled and got smooth. I never felt that way with the Bodyguard but that is why they make so many different guns, it ain't one size fits all


We'll see... Right now I'm simply not trusting the Kahr. I need to trust in a mindless panic to shoot and keep shooting. Despite the stopping power of the 45 if first shot is a miss (unlikely IMO) I still need quick and accurate followups. Thus my dilema. And I'm guessing others have faced this. Is a gun that weighs too little to handle recoil for a reliable double tap worth more than a 9mm or .380 that can?

Thinking I've made a huge mistake... given the videos of Kahr 9s & 40s recoil is worse than the 45.

[RRP]

We'll see... Right now I'm simply not trusting the Kahr. ~~~

Thinking I've made a huge mistake... given the videos of Kahr 9s & 40s recoil is worse than the 45.

Give yourself a bit more time and a few more 100 rounds before making that judgement.

These tiny pistols are a handful (pardon the oxymoron). With only two fingers on the grip, much of the support comes from the weak hand. Squeeze as hard as you can with your support hand. Try to make the grip bleed. That is likely the death grip you would use in a self-defense situation. You may find that with a very firm grip, the pistol lives up to your expectations.

At this point, the gun is sunk cost; you've already made the investment. If it doesn't work out, there is a market waiting for your used Kahr. You have nothing to lose. You have a good pistol, albeit more difficult to shoot well than a full size weapon.

Good luck. Please keep up posted on your progress. We learn from each other's experiences.

[JERRY]

my PM45 has its ups and downs....i can shoot 50 rounds of federal red box champion or wwb fmj without a hitch, then the next 50 will give me a few failures of various kinds....3-5 out of 100 rounds.....

if i had another 100 rounds id take it out pronto and see how she does.....im leaning towards one last 100 round box and if i still have problems i will post it for some sort of trade....shame, i hope i dont have to do that but i dont like having to mess with a gun over and over to get 100 trouble free rounds out of it....time will tell and i hope you have better luck than me.

[LorenzoB]

Thinking I've made a huge mistake... given the videos of Kahr 9s & 40s recoil is worse than the 45.

Here is a link to a recent thread that has a great video and discussion on the recoil of the small Kahr pistols.
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14553

[newCW45guy]

my PM45 has its ups and downs....i can shoot 50 rounds of federal red box champion or wwb fmj without a hitch, then the next 50 will give me a few failures of various kinds....3-5 out of 100 rounds.....

if i had another 100 rounds id take it out pronto and see how she does.....im leaning towards one last 100 round box and if i still have problems i will post it for some sort of trade....shame, i hope i dont have to do that but i dont like having to mess with a gun over and over to get 100 trouble free rounds out of it....time will tell and i hope you have better luck than me.


The Winchester White box I had a few stovepipes though the Defender hollow points I had zilch. The bullet profile is different.

Though I challenge anyone to provide proof of a quick double-tap using the CW45. (with standard springs and factory loads)

I'm obviously asking too much. I went out looking for a S&W Shield in .40 S&W and ended up with something that might be less lethal in an actual gunfight.

[JERRY]

the winchester white box i had a few stovepipes though the defender hollow points i had zilch. The bullet profile is different.

Though i challenge anyone to provide proof of a quick double-tap using the cw45. (with standard springs and factory loads)

i'm obviously asking too much. I went out looking for a s&w shield in .40 s&w and ended up with something that might be less lethal in an actual gunfight.

my pm45 is stock and i do quick dbl taps, but i dont have a video of it. Why is this hard for you to believe? The pm45 handles surprisingly well for a truly compact 45acp.

[newCW45guy]

my pm45 is stock and i do quick dbl taps, but i dont have a video of it. Why is this hard for you to believe? The pm45 handles surprisingly well for a truly compact 45acp.

I guess the surprisingly well for a truly compact says it all. Not so sure I want the trade-off.

IMHO the rapid fire aka double tap invites disaster with the CW. Until I can either master it or cut the b*tch loose I really trust my .380 Bodyguard more as it functions each and every time. Don't get me wrong I really want this one to work. CT laserguard installed and Trijicon night sights are ordered. I'm already deeply invested in what might be a sinking ship.

Yes, I could carry my S&W 1076 (with either full power or lite loads I'll nail A's every time) or the VP70z both I can double tap or more (with 18rds in the mag why not) still mostly A's... I'll even go so far as to say I'd bet the same range that .380 I could run A's though the reloads would not score well against other autos.

[otium]

newcw45guy - after reading through your comments, I suspect what you really want is another pistol.

If it were me and I was as disappointed with the cw45 as you are, I would go ahead and get something that has a shorter trigger reset for your double tap style and you might be happier.

You can always keep, sell or trade the cw45 while you are achieving your cc nirvana.

[JERRY]

i just realized you have a VP70z. ever since i was a kid in school i wanted one of those......but now theyre collector guns, im in to shooting guns.

[newCW45guy]

i just realized you have a VP70z. ever since i was a kid in school i wanted one of those......but now theyre collector guns, im in to shooting guns.

Not many would remember the HK VP70Z as the first plastic gun. Take that Glock guys. ;)

Though it does shoot. I setup an action pistol course many years ago with a blind surprise final stage. One mandatory reload prior to the last stage and it was a lot of targets mosly no-shoot. Since I saw the final stage and fees were revenue for the club.... I shot it.. Though I DQ'd myself of course but would have finished second even with all the time it took to send the extra rounds and empty the mag at the last target.

[newCW45guy]

newcw45guy - after reading through your comments, I suspect what you really want is another pistol.

If it were me and I was as disappointed with the cw45 as you are, I would go ahead and get something that has a shorter trigger reset for your double tap style and you might be happier.

You can always keep, sell or trade the cw45 while you are achieving your cc nirvana.

I'm giving it some time. Either I change or it does.

One thing FOR CERTAIN. I would not recommend this gun to a new shooter for CC. It quite likely would get them killed if the first shot didn't dispatch the BG.

Bigger in this case has it's disadvantages. Serious disadvantages.