Help w/ deciding on a used PM9.

[WildCotton]

Greetings!

This is my first post as I am thinking of joining the community of Kahr owners. I have been looking for a very slim and compact pistol to be worn as an every day concealed weapon. My search initially began at looking at the "pocket .380's and I was deciding between the Ruger LCP and the S&W Bodyguard 380. However, I quickly decided that with a host of quality compact 9mm's, the added power is easily justified.

After several months of gun shop visits and on-research, my search has lead me to be heavily leaning towards the PM9. I have spent quite a bit of time reading about the PM9 on-line, but I am far from an expert. I am not new to shooting or pistol ownership, just new to Kahr.

My local gun shop/range has a used PM9 for $569. I am not sure if it the PM9094 or PM9094N, but I assume that it is the 9094N as it has the black slide and night sights. It seems to be in fairly good condition and does not show much wear on the outside. Is this a reasonable price?

My experience with this particular gun shop has left a lot to be desired. They do so much business, that they really could care less if you buy from them or not. They are not attentive nor very helpful and offer nothing any way of "Customer Service." I mention this for several reasons. Between three sales associates, there really were not able to tell me much about the used Kahr, such as:
1) How age of the Kahr. (estimate manufacturing date)
2) If the Kahr included the box, paperwork, accessories, etc.
3) If the Kahr was returned, traded, sold, ect.
4) If the Karh had any known issues
5) Really, any general information about the specific used Kahr.

I asked if they would disassemble it for me so I could see the process as well as check the condition of the firearm but the sales person wasn't excited about doing it so I didn't press the issue. I figured that if I got to the serious point of purchase, I would demand that they disassemble it for me.

Though the store is an authorized Kahr dealer, at this time, they do not currently have any PM9's, in any model, in stock. They had plenty of the others including the PM40, PM45, and CM/CW line. To me, this shows the popularity of the PM9.

I was told that I could "rent" the pistol for $10 (plus ammo) to test it out. If I decided to purchase it, the rental rate would be deducted from the purchase price.

I figured, what the heck and bought two boxes of 115 grain of their in-house FMJ reloads. After shooting the first few magazines, I could quickly tell that the sight was way off. At seven yards, I was shooting roughly four to six inches to the right. At fifteen yards, I was a foot to the right. I brought the target in and at 3 yards, I was still off to the right. At any distance, the groupings were less than great.

I also experienced quite a bit of "pinch" on my fingers from where the magazine meets the grip. Is this normal? I know that in a defensive-situation this would not be an issue, but it could prove to be a pain during the break-in period as well as at the range. Do the Pearce grip extensions help eliminate the "pinch?"

Note: After testing the PM9, I rented a Springfield XPs, as I am interested in it as well. I was dead-on accurate with it and experienced no issues with it, what so ever.

Now, with all of that said, should I purchase this pistol? Another local gun store has a black PM9 (w/o night sights) on order and should be delivered this week. I believe the price is $625 + tax. Should I wait for the new one? I can always add night sights down the road.

If I decide to go ahead and purchase the used PM9, here are a couple questions:

1) How easy is it to adjust the sights? Does this have to be performed by a gunsmith?

2) The night sights were not very bright, so they could probably be replaced. If I decided to replace the sights, about how much does it cost to replace night sights on this pistol. Any recommendations on make/model of night sights for the PM9? (I have added Trijicon on both of my Glocks.)

3) If they do have the box and paperwork, is there any information that I could off of it (model #, etc.) that will tell me what year it was made? I ask this because I am wondering if there are any years that were better than others.

At some point in the future, I may send the PM9 off to Cylinder and Slide for some custom work. With that in mind, would it really matter if I bought the used model, since they would be replacing the sights anyhow?

As a final note, I was so frustrated with the "used" PM9's performance, I'm almost to the point of going with the Springfield. I can honestly say that if the grip was not so aggressive (my hand was raw after firing two boxes of 180 grain ammunition), I probably wouldn't be writing this post. But, I know that the problems that I experienced are probably due to the fact that it is "used" so that is why I am still very interested in becoming a PM9 owner.

I know I am throwing a lot of information out there as well as asking a lot of questions but I really appreciate any information and recommendations that you may have to help me with this decision.

Kind Regards,
~WC~

[ar33c9]

I have the CM9, which is the no frills version of the PM9. It had been spot on accurate and 100% reliable. I could not be happier with it. Bought off GB for $355. If I had your experience of shooting two firearms and one felt right, was accurate and reliable, I would not hesitate to choose it. User "feel" goes a long way.

[jocko]

if it is a store used/range gunm, more than likely it will be aorund for awhile. Here is what I would do.,

#1 get the serial number off the gun and either5 call kahr to get a birth date or come on here and hit on the karh serial # thread andu will be within a month or so of the birth date.

The price to me seems good, expecially if it is a blued version.

Is this the blunt nose version PM9 o0r the new style beveled version of the PM9 and CM series. u can see the difference on the kahr site or someone khere will psot both vbersions for you to view


IMO u can't shoot out a kahr, so to me if it looks good and no noticeable abuse, rounds down ragne is not an issue.

The pinch grip thing is normal. live with it.

Being u can rent and get that money off on the buying price, damn, go for it

I would rent the gun and soot 50 rounds of good americna brand ammo to test out for urself.

If u buy, u definitely need to PM me about Cylinder ad Slides in doing work on ur kahr

IMO a good ragne rental and 50 rounds down range of american brand fmj ammo is a real chanc eto see how this gun performs. If they are reliuntant to disassembly the gun then don't press it, as again most gun show people/employees know jhack sh!t about some guns kand they could easily fokk it up for u. If they don't have a manual for the gun ask them to give you a copy page for page out of their nrew kahrs owners manual. they are all exactly the same.

Also this forum has the best new kahr ownership information that no manual can give t you.,

#1 Kahr lube chart

#2 Propper prepping of yur new kahr

#3 New kahr newbie membership informationjh.

Ifyou review these 3 threads ur gonna learn more than any manual can give to you
Night sites unless viewed at night are hard to tell if they are gone or not. IMO ur night sights on this kahr are probably OK and good to go. again the age of the gun will tell you alot.

Whether it has the owners box or not IMO isnot a big deal. Would be nice but again not needed. That model did come with a spare 7 round magazine, so ask if they have that magazine or would they throw in a flush fit 6 round magazine, which would be my choice of the two

IMO the sights are probably not off either. It is just u are not used to kahrs loong trigger system. Stay at 7 yards and test out, forget about 15 yards.If ur expecting 2" groups at 10 yards, IMO buy another brand gun, The kahr can do it, just that most shooters cannot due to the loooong but so smooth double action trigger. Your PM9 is what it is a prue close up defense gun that is built like a damn tank.I have no doubt the sringer is a good gun but it doen't come in for size and wieght, just two different guns. Ur kahr has cleaner lines than any semi out there. Nuttin to think abut either pull it out and pull the trigger and it will go bang. Ur accuracy will get batter with more rounds down range to.

The grip pinching thing is curable, I think Wyn on this forum has a simple "O" ring fix for the magazine.

If the gun went bang every time then the "use frustrated" stuff IMO is out of order for there is nuttin wrong with the gun. I think the used price if very good, and range rental comes off, maybe u can dicker on the rounds shot to and offer them $525 and start to walk out asnd see what flies.

Get the birth date first though. More than likely if it is a rental gun, the first thing I would do if I bought it was to order a complete new recoil assembly from kahr and that is around $25, so factor that price in..

Kahrs don't show wear, Kahrs IMO don't wear, Kahrs do show abuse. There is a difference.

Again IMO and my two cents but if ur expecting beer can accuracy at 15 yards+ plus, buy anutter gun. Shooting a kahr IMO is not much different than shooting any double action wheel gun DOUBLE ACTION. If u can do great with a wheel gun then ur good to go with a kahr. A springfield XP trigger system is not the same as kahrs.. Just sayin

Are u a lfet or right hand shooter??? Normally left hand shooters pull right..

[CJB]

Is this a reasonable price?

I was told that I could "rent" the pistol for $10 (plus ammo) to test it out. I could quickly tell that the sight was way off. At seven yards, I was shooting roughly four to six inches to the right.


Its a good price and thats the DLC finish with Night sights, so its the N model.

The sights are not the problem. Its your shooting. You need to get used to the pistol.

If the sights were "that far off" six inches at seven yards... lets do the math....to be off on a 5 inch sight radius, by six inches at 21 feet, you'd have a sight that is damn near 1/8 inch off. (.119" in fact) Its not. Its your trigger finger thats off, and for a small fee, we can adjust your trigger finger with the same hammer we use to drift the sights... just lay it on the bench for a second, and look at that poster the wall over yonder to your left.... this wont take a but a moment......

[Ikeo74]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=kahr+pm9&osCsid=douab6jfab4tduv2ocdkm7l4l2&x=19&y=5

A new PM9 w/night sights black slide $718
SS slide $682 shipped free. You would have a Fee to pay your FFL around $25 Page down for lower price without night sights.

[WildCotton]

All,

Thanks for the information so far. I really appreciate everyone's input. Here are a couple of comments to help clarify my original post...

- I am right handed.

- I am not sure if it is the "bull nose" version or not. I have tried to find pictures to differentiate but have been unsuccessful thus far. If some one could post the two so I could compare, that would be great!

- The Kahr PM9 that I mentioned is not a "rental" gun. It is a gun that someone either traded in or sold to the store. It is in their "Used Gun" section and labeled "used" on the price tag. Some of their used guns are labeled "like new" (bought and returned by the same owner within a certain period of time) but this one however is not.

- This particular store allows you to rent their "used" guns for $10 (pistols) and if you decide to purchase it that day, they deduct the rental fee to your purchase price.

- They have a "rental" PM9 (PM9093) which I shot on a previous visit and shot much better. I have also shot a coworker's CW9, which I know is different that the PM line. So all in all, I've experienced the Kahr trigger and like the longer trigger pull. I am not the greatest, precision shooter, but I also don't think that I am terrible. I really think, though I have been wrong many times before, that there is something off with the sights on this particular firearm. When I aimed to the left, I was able to get closer to the bullseye. Since this is a used gun, who knows what may have happened to the sights or what else may be wrong with it.

- One helpful thing the sales associate did do was allow me to take the PM9 into their bathroom to test the brightness of the sights. In my opinion, they are not as bright as I think a new set would be. From experience, I know the difference of brand new sights compared to older sights. Ex: I have new Trijicon sights on a G23 and they are much brighter than those on my 6 y/o G19. (Just like the dots on my 2 y/o Luminox are much brighter than my 10 y/o one.) With that said, I will admit, I did not take in a new pistol in with the old one to compare. I did have my old older watch on and the Kahr sights were a bit brighter than the watch.

- I took my time and shot two boxes (50 rounds each). Mostly, I shot at an approx 7-yard distance. For kicks and grins, I shot a few rounds out at distance (15 yds), as well as up close (3 yds). I did this with both the Kahr and Springfield.

- I love the feel, size, and specifically the thinness of the Kahr. I also love how it manages the recoil of the 9mm. I really think that at this time, the Kahr PM9 is what I want. I just can't decide if I should buy this used one and pay to have a gunsmith work on it or if I should opt for one NIB.

- Regardless if I bought the used or the new Kahr, I really like the XS "Big Dot" sight. I think it would be perfect for low-light, self defense situations. So, if I bought the new model w/o night sights or the used model with older sights, I would probably make the modification. If I so, more than likely, I would have a gunsmith do this for me. Is it an easy change? I know rates range from region to region, but is there an estimated cost?

- The advantage of buying used is that the break-in period should be less. But then again, who knows how many rounds the previous owner(s) may have put through it. I did like how it fired every single round. No FTF's or FTE's so that is something positive.

- Again, I think that it is worth mentioning that I have shot a PM9 before and am no stranger to the trigger pull.

- Thanks so much for the insight and information so far. I really do appreciate everyone's assistance!

I was thinking about going back and firing a box or two of premium rounds as well as having one of the employees shoot it while I'm there. May be it is me...

Re,
~WC~

[jocko]

just send the slide to xs and they will install the sights for u, as cheap as any smitty and done right. Unless he is a damn good smitty, kahrs sights can be a real b!tch to get off. Just sayi

certainly low night sights would not be a deal breaker with me, I would indeed check out the serial # to see date of birth. Used gun probalby needs no break in other than a ower getting to know the gun better.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, seems towork well for most...

I can tell u this much a good way to check to see if it is shooter error in accuracy is to put a half dozen snap caps in with 30 loose rounds and let anutter person load ur magazine. That will show big time any shooter issues..

Dry firing doesn't produce what I just mentioned in no way shape or form either. Just sayin

[CJB]

- The advantage of buying used is that the break-in period should be less. But then again, who knows how many rounds the previous owner(s) may have put through it. I did like how it fired every single round. No FTF's or FTE's so that is something positive.

A man after my own way of thinking, as far as break in is concerned. Let someone else do it! (and pay for it). Figure two boxes of 100 for break in... what... at least $45-50 for non-"remanufactured" ammo.

And, you know the pistol shoots well. No issues.

Jeeze man, what more do you need? Those sights should be good for 10 years or a little more. The pistol is NOT ten years old.

Try to haggle a little, at least get them to take the $10 back off... etc etc
It OUGHT to come with both magazines too.

[WildCotton]

You guys talked me in to it. Too bad they aren't open on Sunday nights!

Its funny how many twists this journey has taken. As I said, I started off wanting a .380 and this is how its gone:

.380
Kel-Tec P-3AT -> Ruger LCP -> S&W Bodyguard 380 ->

9mm
Walther PPS -> Sig P290 -> Beretta Nano -> M&P Shield -> Ruger LC9 -> Kahr PM9 -> Glock 26 -> Sig P290RS ->

.45
Glock 36 -> SA XDs -> Kimber Ultra CDP CT -> (back) SA XDs

9mm (back)
Sig P290 RS -> Kahr PM9 ->

.45 (back)
SA XDs ->

9mm (finally)
Kahr PM9 (final decision!)

This is one of the rare moments that I am glad that I'm not a big guy (5'8" 165 lbs). If I were I would be able to CC a lot wider range of "compact" pistols such as the HK P2000SK. Due to my shape and stature, the G26 is just a little too wide for me to comfortably CC, year round, in an IWB holster. If it could, I'd bought one years ago. But thanks to genetics and my dietary habits, this is the life I must lead.

I feel good about the PM9. As it stands, I'll head over to the shop in the morning, give it another careful look over, ask them to open it up, fire a box through it, and if all works out, fill out the paperwork and bring it home with me.

Then again, I may wake up tomorrow morning and decide I want to take another look at the Beretta Nano or that dang SA XDs. Ha! Just kidding. Or am I...

Re,
~WC~

[jocko]

naw we just gave u some good facts to think about. all the guns u mentionedc are OK in my book but the PM9 kahr is IMO in a class all by itself...

[WildCotton]

Jocko,

That you all did.

I'm still a little nervous...

If I send it to XS for them to install the Big Dots, will it come back, relatively adjusted and sighted in? At least sighted in well enough for self-defense.

Re,
~WC~

[WildCotton]

I'm happy to announce that I am now a proud owner of a PM9. True to my word, I went to the gun store / range this afternoon. Long story short, I bought a "bull nose" PM9 w/o night sights that was traded in to the store earlier today. It is far more accurate than the PM9 that I had my eye on. Glad I held off until this afternoon!

Asking price for the used PM9, including the box, paperwork, three 6-round magazines and one 7-round magazine was a mere $499. I talked them into throwing in the box of rounds I used while testing it as well as a box of 115g Federal Hydra-Shok. Not a bad deal in my opinion. I'm happy with it...

Since it has no night sights, I'll be ordering the XS-Big Dots. Anything else I should do, right away, besides a really good cleaning, since it is a used gun? Should I take it to a gunsmith and have them give it a once over?

I also picked up a cheap IWB holster until I can get a good one off the Internet. Besides the PJ, any other suggestions for a relatively short fellow (5'8").

Anyhow, thanks again for all the help. I look forward to shooting this pistol as well as the sh*t with all of you as I enter into the Kahr rabbit-hole!

KR,
~WC~

[RRP]

Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the Kahr family.

Don't rush off to a gunsmith. Take the time to get familiar with your new acquisition. Clean it thoroughly. Pay special attention to the striker clean-out hole on the underside of the slide. If the previous owner(s) neglected this, it will likely be very dirty. There may brass particles in the striker mechanism as well. Follow the advice in the Tech forum, flush the area well with non-chlor brake cleaner.

Shoot the gun. If you have questions/problems, post them here. Collectively, there is more knowledge of Kahr products in this forum, than any smith I know. If you do have a problem, that the experts on this site diagnose which is beyond your mechanical skill, then seek the help of an experienced gunsmith. Otherwise, save your money.

I wouldn't rush to put night sights on the pistol, just yet. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot. It you decide you don't like the gun, why spend 100 bucks for new sights? When you reach the point that you would stake your life on the PM9, add the fancy new sights. By then, you may have a different idea of the make/model sights you want.

Enjoy! Safe shooting.

[jocko]

Jocko,

That you all did.

I'm still a little nervous...

If I send it to XS for them to install the Big Dots, will it come back, relatively adjusted and sighted in? At least sighted in well enough for self-defense.

Re,
~WC~

xs will installthe sights properly and set the sights dead center on the slide. Now ur shooting quirks will effect what difference accuracy quirks. That isnormal with every shooter.

Quite worryig about that sight stuff, u willb e Ok with it when it gets back. Also take some time to enjoy the blujnt nose PM9. IMO it is a dandy. Put some good rounds through it. visit the kahr tech section and hit on the kahr lube chart and read the propper prepping thread. There are some good "check" tips there.

then when ur confident all is well and the gun is shooting like it should, address the sight thing. I think it is wise tolet XS do the sight work.. Not that a smitty can't do it but they specialize ibn sights and sight installation, so it will be done right.

Just remember that the xs bog dot is a fast acquisition "fighting" sight, not a true target gun sight. It covers alot out past 15 yards, which IMO is not what ur PM9 was made for either. Keep your shooting practice under 10 yards and that xs will blow yourmind.

Nice gun, ut got what I think was an excellent price to. Did u find the make date on this gun or what is the serial numbers or u can look it up on this forum under kahr serial numbers. Glock talk has a more updated serial number reference on kahrs to. Just hit on glock talk and then on kahr..

nice gun. enjoy it

One thing I think u should check to be sure of is to take that recoil assembly out of the gun and that back flat peace that goes against the barrel lug. Measure it. if it is 3/8", then I would get a new recoil assembly from kahr and start all new again, as sometime back they changed that part to a 1/2" size.

Nice thing also about ur blut nose kahr is now u can order from wolffs gunsprings just the outter recoil spring for your blunt nose PM9, which will save u alot of money. If ur recoil assembly has the 1/2" part like I toldyou then indeed just go to wolffs and buy ur recoil springs from them. They make um for kahr anyway, but sure alot lower in price.

If u do order a new recoil assembly from kahr be sure to order the 13 coil assembly NOT THE 15 COIL ASSEMBLY..


RRP could not have said it better..

[WildCotton]

Jocko,

Not sure about the manufacturing date but the serial number is: IC494_. Is this a "good one?"

Re,
~WC~

[jocko]

yup sure is. I can't believe it is a blunt nose being so late made. I find iut made around early 2011. Nice find, really a nice find IMO> U will have the lastest recoil assembly in it then, I believe but do check it out though..

[Rubb]

Jocko,

Not sure about the manufacturing date but the serial number is: IC494_. Is this a "good one?"

Re,
~WC~

I’d say manufactured late 2010...of course it’s a good one ;)