Anyone Else's PM9 or CM9 Jam on WWB Too?

[lserver30]

I've had my PM9 for about a year and a half now and have put at least 700+ rounds through it, so its well broken in, but it still jams on about 66%-75% of the boxes of Winchester White Box that I try to put through it. And its not like its dirty, it'll jam on the first round and I always meticulously clean my guns after shooting them. I'd shoot other stuff if WWB weren't so cheap and still brass cased. I'm just wondering if anyone else's PM or CM jams like mine?

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a504/lserver30/null-7.jpg

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a504/lserver30/null-6.jpg

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[Nimrod]

Nope. My PM9 has never jammed. I always use WWB for practice. I use it in all of my guns because it is good quality and CHEAP. The only gun I have seen that had problem with WWB is the P380. It doesn't like them.

From your pictures it looks like the front of the bullets are catching below the feed ramp. Maybe it is a magizine problem. Does your gun do this with different magazines? Does it have problems with anyother ammunition?

[flatlander937]

I have that issue with Federal 115gr FMJ.

Take some calipers and measure the round's OAL.

I took some calipers to these kinds of ammo and grabbed 5 samples of each to compare.

My CM9 feeds the Federal just fine in my 6rd mags, but extended 7rd mag it jams about 75% of the time just like yours(nosedive UNDER feed ramp). Magtech and Aguila is no problem. I've shot 115gr Aguila as well with no problems at all, but I had none of that on me to compare.

Magtech was most consistent in OAL from one to another cartridge, Federal was on average the longest, and Aguila was the shortest on average by a good margin.

I also have about 80 rounds of 115gr JHP Remington which is WAAY shorter overall(haven't measured but it is easily another 0.150" shorter I'd guess... maybe even more) with no issues.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/IMG_20120916_205011.jpg

Here is a pic of the rounds compared... Notice the Federal is the "pointiest" or least rounded of them all? I suspect this may also play into my problems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/IMG_20120916_204954.jpg


Next time I'm at the store, I'll get some WWB to measure next time for comparison.

[CrabbyAzz]

My CM9 shoots a steady diet of WWB & Tul Ammo without a problem.

[jocko]

a suggestion to chek out. U need to see if by chance ur magazine release is hitting ur magazne follower at about round 2/3. There is a description on how to check this out on the kahr tech section under propper pepping of ur kahr. takes 5 minutes tocheck it out and 5 minutes to fix it.

Also, I would suggest calling kahr and askinf for a new recoil assembly. U just might have a recoil assembly that is way out of whack. It is all about perfect timeing in a semi auto and quite possably a new recoil spring seems to solve alot of issue for guns. That wold be my frst or second place to start.

U just need to eliminate some possabilities and the above is two of them to check out. WWB is great ammo, that is about 95% of all ammo I have ever shot in ay of m,y kahrs. Wal mart 2 miles down the road provideds the best price for me. It isnot the ammo's fault.

Check ur magazines to see if by chance the magazine spring is in backwards. Little things can cause big issues n a semi and anya tme a gun doesn't fire IT IS A BIG ISSUE.

[JERRY]

my PM9 has been flawless with wwb using the flush fit 6 round or extended 7 round magazines.

[Rubb]

my PM9 has been flawless with wwb using the flush fit 6 round or extended 7 round magazines.

Mine too.

Never an issue with Federal either or my handloads @ 1.15.

[RRP]

Ok, so this is a little off-topic, but slightly related.

My P380 does not like flat nose WWB ammo. It tolerates the 50 count boxes, but the P380 will NOT feed the 100 round value pack. To quantify, the gun malfunctions at least 50% of the time with WWB, 100 round package. It malfunctions about 5% of the time when using the 50 round box.

As as result of this track record, I have stopped buying WWB for my 380, as well as for my 9mm. Though I have not shot WWB through my PM9, it has never failed, even when using cheap ammo, i.e. PMC, Blazer, etc. I have never fed steel ammo through my pistols. It would probably feed WWB ball ammo, but I have never tried.

[O'Dell]

My PM9 has never malfunctioned with WWB or Federal, but since they're both fairly weak loads, I seldom use them. Also, I never use extended mags. Before I got rid of it six years ago, my PF9 refused to load WWB at all. I measured the rounds and found that the Winchester's were longer than anything else I was using at the time.

[MEJETSKI2000]

Only issue I had was my own, a "vigorous" mag change, drove the nose on the first round down like that w WWB.Is it on initial chambering, second/third round ?? 6 or 7 rond mags ?

[Mechatricity]

I had this issue when i first got my CM9, it was user error for me. If i slam the mag in too hard, the first round will shift enough to catch the bottom of the feed ramp. make sure that top round in your mag is sitting back alll the way.

Watch the chamber when you slide a new mag in. The tolerance between the first round in the mag and the bottom of the feed ramp can be pretty tight, i agree that ammo may play a big role as well, as i've seen length differ enough to make the difference. I've never seen a round long enough to not fit between the back plate of the mag and the bottom of the feed ramp, but i've seen some that are really, really close.

No one will ever fault kahr for having loose manufacturing tolerances! :D

[AIRret]

I've never had a problem with WWB, and my seven round mag works great (I did let it sit loaded for at least a month). The only ammo I've had a problem with is Remington golden
Saber defensive rounds.

[gm412]

My PM 9 never jams and I have used WWB many times. At least 400 rounds. My PM9 has somewhere between 1500 and 2000 rounds through it. Mostly Federal.

[goose]

Have had no problems with WWB in my CM9 but I use only 6 round mags.

[JERRY]

i should have stated that my PM9 has been flawless with every type of ammo ive put throught it, but i just stated wwb at first because that was the issue with the OP's.

[pugilist10]

My PM9 is new with just 200 rounds through it and no problems with 100 rounds of WWB and 100 rounds of the cheap Federal.

Are you getting your magazines loaded properly tapping the back of the mag to make sure all of the rounds are properly in place? The magazine spring in backwards could also be a problem.

I don't think either of those possibilities would be confined to just one brand or type of ammo.

The length of the rounds, as stated above could be a problem. Maybe there are inconsistencies between lots.

[lserver30]

It never has a problem feeding the first round, it's only usually the 2nd-4th rounds where it tends to jam; and sometimes it'll jam on the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th rounds and sometimes it'll only jam on one of those. The magazine that I use is also irrelevant, the same thing happens whether I'm using my two 6 rounders or my 7 rounder. I've also gone from having it jam on WWB, to running a full 50 round box of cheap Federal flawlessly 5 minutes later so I'm pretty sure that you guys are correct about the overall round length being the culprit. I'll have to pick up a set of calipers and measure the OAL next time I have an issue. Does anyone happen know the tolerances that Winchester keeps? I'll give Kahr a call and see if they'll send me a new recoil assembly as well to see if that helps. This might be a dumb question, but there isn't any kind of break-in period for a new recoil assembly is there?

[JERRY]

all a "break-in" does for a new recoil assy is ease the spring tension a little and i do mean a little. if the recoil assy needs breaking in its defective. the whole breaking in idea is for the metal parts which reciprocate in the gun to fit together better by wearing against each other.....something high end guns have done at the factory.....thats part of the "fitting" you read about.

[lserver30]

Ok that's what I figured but just thought that I'd double check.

[Allen]

I have that issue with Federal 115gr FMJ.

Take some calipers and measure the round's OAL.

I took some calipers to these kinds of ammo and grabbed 5 samples of each to compare.

My CM9 feeds the Federal just fine in my 6rd mags, but extended 7rd mag it jams about 75% of the time just like yours(nosedive UNDER feed ramp). Magtech and Aguila is no problem. I've shot 115gr Aguila as well with no problems at all, but I had none of that on me to compare.

Magtech was most consistent in OAL from one to another cartridge, Federal was on average the longest, and Aguila was the shortest on average by a good margin.

I also have about 80 rounds of 115gr JHP Remington which is WAAY shorter overall(haven't measured but it is easily another 0.150" shorter I'd guess... maybe even more) with no issues.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/IMG_20120916_205011.jpg

Here is a pic of the rounds compared... Notice the Federal is the "pointiest" or least rounded of them all? I suspect this may also play into my problems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/IMG_20120916_204954.jpg


Next time I'm at the store, I'll get some WWB to measure next time for comparison.

I had the same problem with Federal 115 gr FMJ with an 8-round mag during my last trip to the range, but it only happened twice in row with the second round. When I got rid of that particular round that was in the second place the mag emptyed perfectly, as it had during the previous trip to the range. Never had any problems with the WWB. Does sound like it could be variance in shell length all right.

[skribble]

WWB is the only 9mm I've ever had issues with, not only in my CM9, but also in my Beretta 92 which as only had two FTE's ever... both WWB.

All this happened with just one box of the 100 round Walmart bulk stuff, so it could have just been a bad batch, but I've sworn off the stuff since then.

These days I usually buy my 9mm in bulk online. Better selection, better quality, less money.

[JFootin]

Here is some quality range ammo that won't let you down:
Speer Lawman 124 grain TMJ Ammo (http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/1000-rds-9mm-speer-lawman-124-grain-tmj-ammo-53651-or-53616).

[TampaEd]

It never has a problem feeding the first round, it's only usually the 2nd-4th rounds where it tends to jam; and sometimes it'll jam on the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th rounds and sometimes it'll only jam on one of those. The magazine that I use is also irrelevant, the same thing happens whether I'm using my two 6 rounders or my 7 rounder. I've also gone from having it jam on WWB, to running a full 50 round box of cheap Federal flawlessly 5 minutes later so I'm pretty sure that you guys are correct about the overall round length being the culprit. I'll have to pick up a set of calipers and measure the OAL next time I have an issue. Does anyone happen know the tolerances that Winchester keeps? I'll give Kahr a call and see if they'll send me a new recoil assembly as well to see if that helps. This might be a dumb question, but there isn't any kind of break-in period for a new recoil assembly is there?

I have the same problem with my PM9. I've got 700+ rounds through it. Ammo doesn't matter (Remington, Winchester etc.). My nosedive problem is 1% of the time and always on the 2nd or 3rd round out of the mag. I performed the Kahr Forum pre-breakin ritual (eg: clean everything..including mags, manually work slide 500 times etc.) Kahr sent a new recoil spring...I'll see if this works. Not a happy camper at this point!

[jocko]

u need to check to see if the follower is grabbinbg on the mag release , which is at round 2/3 in all magazines. There is an easy way to check for it i the propper prepping thread. and a 5 minute fix for it to. To me it sounds like the magazine follower could be grabbing a tad on the mag release buytton and it is all abouot perfect timeing and if that top round is not presented perfectly for the slide to pik it up perfectly, thenur gonna get issues.
Magazine can't count so if it is screwing up on round 2/3, then there is something wrong in the magazine area and the follower thing has been discussed before here and if indeed it is grabbing even a tad ur gonna get periodic issues, but if u do the reocmmened fix to it, then u will eliminate that issue, which many here hav e done so

This being ur first post, my recommendation is to comehere asn present urt issue and more than likely these members can tell u exactly what to do. Maybe a new redcoil assembly will take careof it to, but IMO u need to check out the magazine thing and at least eliminate that possability.

We have some damn pretty smart guys here, that have already walked in ur shoes.

[les strat]

I had a couple feed problems during the first 50 of break-in, think they were PMC. I also used WWB and had no problems. It pretty much eats anything FMJ or HP's. Sounds like a mag problem. Try tapping the bag of your loaded mag before inserting to make sure they are seated all the way back. Just something I always do.

[lserver30]

Well I made my way over to the Kahr Tech section and read the thread on mag followers catching and then checked all 3 of my mags, (2 six rounders and one 7 rounder), and all three of their followers were catching on the mag release. Well before I started grinding down my followers I thought I'd give Kahr a call. After about 10 minutes on hold, and two minutes explaining what was happening, they told me to send my gun in to be looked at by one of there gunsmiths. Any work done on the gun, and the return shipping is covered by them, but Kahr's website says that I need to overnight my gun to them which will cost about $90. Is this true, or is there a cheaper and yet still acceptable way to send them my gun? Because spending $90, (which is about 13% of what I originally spent on the gun), to send them my gun which has had this issue since the very beginning seems kind of ridiculous.

[lserver30]

Well after calling Kahr again to make sure that my gun absolutely had to go back, and them telling me that since its been doing it since the very beginning that it should, I sent it back last night at a cost of $66.48 (not as bad as I originally thought, but still expensive for an issue that's been around since I got the gun). I just hope that they do something that's worth it and that I couldn't do at home on my workbench in 5 minutes.

[jocko]

u shoulda did the fix urself... at the worst u would have ruined a follower and nuttin more, u didn'thav eto do um allto test out the suggestion. That might not have solved it either but if it is hanging up, then at least it is not supposed to be.

oh well to late now.

[O'Dell]

Well after calling Kahr again to make sure that my gun absolutely had to go back, and them telling me that since its been doing it since the very beginning that it should, I sent it back last night at a cost of $66.48 (not as bad as I originally thought, but still expensive for an issue that's been around since I got the gun). I just hope that they do something that's worth it and that I couldn't do at home on my workbench in 5 minutes.

The couple of times I've had to ship a gun back on my own nickel, I've packed it in a larger box that doesn't look like it contains a gun, and gone to UPS. I operate on the don't ask, don't tell system and so far, they've never asked. It usually cost about $15. The last time when I sent back my Detronics for service, I had the GS ship it and paid them - it was $12.

[jocko]

did that many many many times, theynever ask, foolish to pay $67 bucks. but what ever..

[lserver30]

Well it was the first time I've ever had to ship a gun so I figured I'd be safe and just send it the way they told me to, next time though, I'll either go with the big box or the GS method for sure. And the only reason I was ok with paying that much is that it'll help restore my confidence in it as a carry gun, where as if I just ground down the follower and it seemed to work better, I would still always have that smidgen of doubt in the back of my mind that I hadn't fixed it and that it might happen in a self defense situation (should one ever occur). I'm just kinda weird like that.

[TampaEd]

Will check the follower. A quick update. I did receive a new recoil spring from Kahr. I'm in the process of checking to see if there is a difference with the new recoil spring. I am also checking my different magazines to determine if it is a mag issue or a feed ramp issue. I've never had an issue with the 6 round magazine...I'm using it as a control. At this point, I've put 200 rounds through with the new recoil spring and control mag (6 round) without an issue. I'm going to test my 7 rd magazine and 2-8 round magazines as well with a minimum of 200 rounds each. At then end of this test, I'll have close to 1,000 rounds through with the various magazines. I can then determine which magazine has a higher rate of failure...if any. I can report back if anyone is interested.

[lserver30]

I'm interested and would love to know what you find out/come up with.

[jocko]

every gun is different, so what might work perfect for some we know does not for others. I would betmost willsay they have zero faith in the 8 round mags, some get by OK with the 7 round mags. Most all love the flush fit 6 round mags.

My thoughts have been and have been stated before, the PM and cm series kahrs are ccw guns,. train the way ur would gight, train the way uyr ultimately gonna carry. I seriously doubt if ur gonna carry an 8 round mag in ur cm or pm kahr and if so, why not just buy the TP series and havethe best of everything. Ur certainly not gopnna pocket carry a cm or pm with an 8 round mag. I guess it is OK if u want to range time with it kbut ur gonna shoot differetnly with that long extended magazine in thegun than any flush fit mag. Just my thouhgts, not tryin to shoot down any testing or anything, just stating my opinion..

[lserver30]

I completely agree with you jocko. I always train with a 6 round mag because that's what I carry and only use my 7 round occasionly at the range because it came with the gun. I'm just interested in what TampaEd comes up with out of curiosity.

[hardluk1]

Guess I got lucky My cm runs fine with a 7 round mag from my cw9 and the 8 rounder as a back up as it is easier to get into action if ever needed. I do use all enought to know they run fine. The cw 9 also runs well with the 8 rounder. I do wrap a little finger on them too. I train with the stock mags but still use the 8 rounder too.

[TampaEd]

I guess my issue is whether my nosedive problems are mag related or gun related (ie: the gap issue between the feed ramp and the top of the magazine). Many concealed carry use larger capacity mags as an extra and I think this is what alot of us had in mind when buying the 8 rd mag. I train with both and really haven't noticed a difference in how I shoot either mag both shoot great...maybe its just me. I've spent alot of time thinking how I would test out the different mags (ie: buying all same ammo then completely randomizing the ammo to account for bad lots, limiting my shooting to around 200 rounds per session to limit fatigue, keeping my rate of fire around 1/sec... etc etc). I'm just damn curious on what the problem is.

As an aside, I did check the follower. This follower /mag release conflict seems to come into play with 4 rds left in the mag (so with an 8 rd mag, this would mean round 4 out of the mag should nosedive, on a 7 rd mag is would be round 3, and on a 6 rd mag is would be round 2). Because I'm documenting each mag, I'll be able to document which round nosedives...if at all. I'm hoping the new recoil spring has done the trick. Thanks.

[TampaEd]

I've finished the test I've been working on. Each magazine I tested I followed the following protocol:
1. Clean Pistol
2. 1 shot/second (general) rate of fire
3. No more than 1 magazine tested at each session.
4. Sesson limited to less than 1 hour (avg. 45 min).
5. All ammo same and randomized (I used Winchester white box, 115 g FMJ)
6. Each magazine once loaded was tapped on the primer side to "seat" the rounds in the mag.
7. A fresh recoil spring from Kahr was used.
8. All magazines were full magazines. Consequently, there was a slight difference in the total number of rounds fired per magazine depending on the size of the magazine.
9. A minimum of 200 rounds per magazine was used.
10. Four magazine were used: 6 round, 7 round, and 2- 8 round (mag A and mag B).
I had been having issues with nose diving (about 1/100 rounds in the 7 and 8 round mags). I wanted find out if the ammo was to blame, the recoil spring or a design flaw in the mag or pistol (eg: the gap between the feed ramp and the top of the magazine).
Here are my results:
6 round mag: 34 mags changes or 204 rounds: No issues.
7 round mag: 30 mag changes or 210 rounds: No issues.
8 round mag "A": 26 mag changes or 208 rounds: No issues.
8 round mag "B": 26 mag changes or 208 rounds: No issues.

After 830 rounds with various magazines sizes and using the same ammunition (some might say underpowered ammo), I conclude my issue was the original recoil spring. Kahr was right in replacing the recoil spring and IN MY CASE, fixed the issue. Thanks.

[jocko]

nice report, recoil springs tend to solve alot of things that one would think is not related. that was a very good field test.

Nice gun when they do as designed, ain't they???? Just sayin

I would almost bet that if u now inserted the original recoil spring assembly thge gun will function just the same as the new spring did. Ur gun in anutter 800 rounds certainly has smoothed out alot, high spots are gone,everything now has taken its designed set and matted up good. sometime just testi tout for your own satisfaction. I will make an excellent spare down the road..

[TampaEd]

Really love the night sights Kahr puts on these pistols...nice and big for my old eyes. I'll work in the old recoil spring to see if it makes a difference. I suspect the old recoil may be a wound a bit too tight (ie: very stiff). If that's the case, a little hotter ammo might prove the original spring to be a-ok. I suspect that some of the cheap ammo sold at Chinamart and the like may not meet spec if you know what I mean, and thus give false positives in the malfunction arena. But thanks for the kudos...I appreciate it. All the best.

[CJB]

mine runs like a Singer sewin' machine on WWB

[jocko]

naw we tend to knock wal mart as cheapo stuff, their amm is the same ammo u gonna pay haff as much more at gander mt or cabelas. WWB is good ammo, it is no dirtier IMO than any other brand. Is it as hot a +P defense stuff. NO but it will function in any kahr and if it doesn't IMO supin is not right with the gun, not the ammo. that is 98% of the brand I have ever shot out of my 3 kahrs. . Winchester and Remington and other american ammo makers don';t make junk ammo for walmart or big box stores. But u come into Winchester and tell um u will buy 20 million round of WWB 9 115 fmj and u can bet ur sweet ass, they are gonna sharpen up their pencil. To me one of the big difference of wal mart and gander mt is that gander also buys in hugh quanities so they are getting a great price, just that they don't pass it on to the buyer like wal mart does

[Popeye]

Nope. Eats everything I've ever put in it.

[Rubb]

I ran another different load a couple weeks ago in the PM9.
That makes 25 different loads now....all flawless.

[TampaEd]

I re-introduced my original recoil spring and (using the same test protocol as before) tried the various mags with the remaining randomized ammo. I wanted to find out if the nosedive problem returned or if not, maybe the pistol was now sufficiently broken in (I have 1,700+ rounds through my PM9). At the second mag change on the 7 rd mag, the third round nosedived. I had only put 50+ rounds through the pistol at this point when the problem returned. Given that my early test of 800+ round gave me no problems with the new spring, I'm quite certain that the recoil spring is a potential issue if you experience nosedive issues. The good news is that it is probably the easiest fix! Thanks.

[OnTheSide]

Only trouble I've had with my CM9 is with some lead "training rounds" I bought accidentally from Bass Pro. They did not feed well.... with every 10 rounds hanging on the feed ramp as you have shown in your pictures. No problems with any other brand of FMJ or JHP. My carry loads are Hornady Critical Defense JHP 115 grain flex tips. Never had a FTF or FTE with these.