"Kahr Factory Tune-up Service"

[WildCotton]

Greetings,

Has anyone out there used Kahr's "Factory Tune-up Service?" If so, how was the overall experience? Was it worth the $175 (+ $25 s/h)? Could you tell a major difference between pre and post tune-up? How does this service compare and rate to the work of other Kahr specialists out there such as Cylinder and Slide?

A couple weeks ago, I purchased a "slightly used' Kahr PM9 (PM9094, bull-nose model) at my local gun shop. The sales clerk could not tell me anything about the history of the PM9, only that it was part of a trade-in that they received earlier that day.

The outside appearance was spectacular with just a little wear on the magazine release and one small blemish on the slide. I shot a couple 6-round magazine loads (115 gr FMJ) through it before purchasing and didn't experienced any issues and it was as accurate as I expected.

Once I got home, I took it apart and was surprised to find it completely filthy on the inside. I took my time cleaning the slide, barrel, spring, guide rod, polymer section, etc. I think I did a pretty good job cleaning it and getting it squared away. Due to how much soot and grime that was on the inside of the PM9, I imagine that either it had never been cleaned or had a lot of rounds put through it since its last cleaning.

I went to the range last night and I experienced several FTF issues. No FTE problems. Also, both the 6 and 7 round magazines seem to either not want to feed or would feed the top round at an odd angle. Some times the magazine will slide out with ease, other times it won't due to the top round sticking slightly out of the magazine. (I do not know how to disassemble and reassemble the magazines.)

Since I purchased the PM9 used, I have no clue how the previous owner treated and cared for the pistol. I also don't know if it has been through the entire "break-in" period or not. There is no way of knowing how many rounds have been put through it. It is entirely possible that it is still in the beginning stage of the break-in period or it has had 500 rounds fired through it. I plan to put at least a hundred plus rounds through it this weekend and see how it performs.

If I am still having issues, would my PM9 benefit from a "tune-up?" Should I send it to Kahr (or other Kahr specialist such as C&S) for a "tune-up or upgrade service?" Are there any known Kahr specialists in the Atlanta, GA region? Several gun shops in my area of Atlanta sell Kahrs and have gunsmiths on-site but they only offer general handgun "reliability packages." Is that similar to Kahr's "factory tune-up service?" I think I would rather a Kahr specialist work on my PM9.

Overall, I want what everyone else wants and that is to know that I can depend on my Kahr to be reliable and shoot every time. If a "tune-up" is required to get my "unknown-used" gun to that point, that is what I need to do.

One more thing to consider, as I have posted elsewhere on this site, I am looking into adding the XS Big Dot night sights. If I do decide to send the PM9 to Kahr for a tune-up, should I have them install the XS sights while they are performing the tune-up or does XS do a better job installing their sights?

I know I have thrown a lot out there and have asked a lot of questions. I hope I haven't been too long winded but I wanted to be as specific as I could to get my concerns across.

Thank you for your insight and assistance.

Kind Regards,
~WC~

[jocko]

hopefully uyr using the slide lock lever to load that first round. For awhile it takers practice to hand rack that first round in the gun. Kahrs have stout recoil springs. So for sure use the slide lock lever to load the first round and practie hand racking but don't worry if u screw up , as it takes time to master it but u will.

If it is the blunt noxe version then reaqd the thread that I just posted to anutter person who just bought a blunt nose PM9.,

IMO a kahr tune up os a total waste of bucks. C & S is even worse, More than anythbing I would say ur gun needs some rounds through it and maybe a new outter recoil spring or complete recoil assembly.

Look at the bottom of ur magazine, see that dimple, now push it in with a sumpin and at the same time slide the place back slowly. to keep things from flying out all over hell, before u take that bottom plte off, just slide a nail through that last hole in the magazine tube and that will keep all the parts from flying all overt, then dissasemble and check it out to see if all is ok.

U might wantto view the kahr lube chart for sure and the propper prepping thread to on the kahr tech secion there are some helpful hints there u can check out and o urself.
In my post to theother person ay attetion to that recol part I talked about. If u have the new version in there then just order from wolffs (gunsprings.com) the outter recoil spring for you blunt nose PM9, which as u know I think i tis the bestoof any kahr made today..

Just get back tous with any questions we have more talent on this forum than u can shake a stick at and these guys know what they are talking about to. Just sayin

[Longitude Zero]

1. Thoroughly clean and lube it.
2. Shoot it like you stole it.

Then consider if you want any work done on it. There is NO firearms that cannot be helped/improved by a competent gunsmith. The only real question is what is it worth to you to have it done.

[Alfonse]

New magazine springs are cheap. If you are having FTF issues, cleaning the magazines and new springs couldn't hurt. BTW, they are easy to get apart. Use a pen or something to push on the button on the bottom of the magazine and slide off the base plate. The spring will try to enthusiastically come out from there.

[getsome]

Hi Wild Cotton and welcome to Kahrtalk and congrats on your fine little nine....I agree with the others that $200.00 bucks would be a lot of money for what will be basically a fluff and buff that you can do yourself for nothing...

If you don't have a manual then down load one as there is much good info in there and you really need to read it all...Kahrs have a few things different from other semi autos such as the slide release/lock spring...The magazine is fairly easy to take down and there is a right and wrong way to install the spring and this picture is also in the manual... Several folks found the factory even installed them upside down which will cause problems...

It would be a good idea to get a couple new recoil springs and replace them every 1000/1500 rounds for good measure...A weak recoil spring can cause FTF issues and they are cheap insurance...If after firing a couple hundred more rounds of range ammo through your PM9 it still has FTF problems then send it back to Kahr to let them look at it and when you call if you ask real nice they may even pick up the shipping...

I live in the Atlanta (Stone Mountain) area and I have tried 3 area gunsmiths for other pistol issues and had bad luck with all them...David's Gun room replaced a front sight and reblued the barrel on my Uberti .45 SA and they really botched it bad and the front sight was installed way off center...

I had Tucker Gun try and do a trigger job on a S&W revolver and they lost track of it and six months later returned it and for the life of me I think they didn't do anything as the action was no better than before...While I'm sure there are some good gunsmiths in the area I just haven't found one and Kahr techs will know more about what makes them tick than anyone else so I would go with them...Good luck with your pistol and just keep shooting it as the more rounds down range the better they start to behave...

[jocko]

damn good points there getsome.

[WildCotton]

Getsome,
I've been to David's Gun Room on several occasions, most of which were a disappointment. However, I actually purchased my last sporting rifle from them. Several years ago, I went to DGR looking to buy a Weatherby Ultra Light .270 Rem. Upon arrival, I recognized one of the sales guys (I had worked with him at Bass Pro Shops back in the mid 1990's.) and he hooked me up with a great deal!

A customer had DGR order a Remington Model 700 Mountain Rifle (chambered in the .260 Remington) through Remington's Custom Shop. Upon placing the order, the customer put 30% down but he never came back to claim it. Since the rifle had been sitting for over a year, the sales guy, my old acquaintance, said that I could take it home for the remaining 70% owed. I negotiated down to 50% of the difference but with the condition that I had to buy the optics and mounts along with the rifle. I went with a Zeiss Diavari scope and Leupold 2-piece mounts and rings. I love the set up and find that I use it more than any other rifle in my collection. That .260 has been superb from deer to hogs to coyotes. It is so light, I can carry it all day long and can hardly tell that its slung on my shoulder!

But that was my only good experience. In general, its been my experience that they lack customer service, knowledge, care, and their prices are higher than a camel's... hump. Its a normal occurrence for me to walk in, look around, and never have someone ask if I need any help or have a question...

However, I went by there after I bought my PM9 to see if they could take a look at it and see if it needed any work. I even thought about having them clean it since it was so filthy. After waiting nearly an hour, I overheard the customer in front of me complaining about the results he had received from "the reliability package" performed on his pistol. It seemed that he wasn't very satisfied and was having them redo the trigger work. Which is ironic because later when I asked if their gunsmith had any experience with Kahr, I was told, "He can work on anything with a trigger." I passed on using them performing any work and may never grace their doors again.

(Sorry for the tangent, Guys!)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Update on my PM9:

I shot 4 boxes of 115 gr "range" ammo through the PM9 this afternoon. I had 2 FTF's during the first few rounds of the first box. After that, no more FTF's! The only mechanical issue I have had since, was when I switched to hollow-points and tried to rack the slide, the slide will jam and won't go all the way forward. I have to rack, rack, and rerack the slide for it to finally close all the way forward. This has happened on several occasions, only with hollow-points (Federal HydraShok).

The only other issue that I experienced today was when shooting (7 yards) at an "assailant" target and aiming at center-mass, I shoot low and to the right. But at the same distance if I was taking head shots I was just slightly to the right. I discussed this and showed my target with a sympathetic sales guy who is knowledgeable about Kahrs. He said it looked like the rear-sight might be off. If this is not the case, I am sure that it is 100% user error and I will get better with time and practice. And if it is the rear sight, this will be corrected by exchanging the standard sights with night sights. This problem will be solved by changing sights and practice, practice, practice!

Now, about the tune-up, I think y'all have just about talked me out of it for the time being. The PM9 seems to be improving with each round fired and working correctly so I don't think I need a bunch of polishing performed right now. I may look into it a little more but I think I will spend those funds on adding night sights.

Unless there are any objections, I am going to go ahead and pop on the XS Big Dots. I plan to send the slide to XS for them to perform the night sight installation. Does anyone have experience with XS in this manner? How long is the turn around time? OR should I send it to Kahr for them to install the sights?

Where is the best place to purchase Kahr accessories? I know there aren't as many accessories for Kahr products as say Glock, but I'd like to get:
- some type of grip cover/sleeve (Any suggestions???)
- magazines and magazine extensions
- is there a "plug" like what Glock has to plug the hole near the mag-well?

That's all I got for now, I think. Keep the advise and recommendations coming in, please!

Guys, I gotta say, after today's trip to the range, I really-really love this little PM9!

Regards,
~WC~

[wyntrout]

Check out the Newcomer Welcome and all of the links there. Watch the take down video. Look in the downloadable manual. A lot of guys get these guns and just take them apart and then have troubles they could have avoided. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but we see problems develop when guys don't know what they're doing and how different Kahrs are.

$200 for a "fluff and buff" is a waste of your money! Check out the lubrication and slide tear down links... plenty of pictures and instructions. A new outer recoil spring might help... Wolffsprings....

A bike tube grip cover is cheap and will give you a good grip that you can modify to suit yourself. Don't block the magazine well or either side of the magazine catch, though.

For fast delivery and some of the best prices on magazines, try Ivanhoe Warehouse. I've bought DOZENS from them and they only charge $5 per order and use USPS Priority Mail.

And, welcome to the forum!

Wynn:)

[CB3]

I am not a fan of Big Dot sights on a self defense pistol.

1. At close range, you don't use sights, really, big or little. You have to shoot VERY fast, while moving. Trying to use sights could get you killed.

2. At ranges where you might use sights to your advantage, Big Dots cover up a lot of the target and reduce the precision of your sighted fire.

A PM9 is primarily intended for concealed carry, close range deathly encounters. Big dot sights will not help you.

Polish your feed ramp.

Replace the recoil and mag springs.

Clean the gun and mags real well and reassemble properly.

Lubricate well until broken in.

There are threads on each of the topics already posted on the forum, including a few that start with this topic: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943

[getsome]

Well WildCotton I'm glad things seem to be improving and I think all your pistol needs is pretty much what CB3 said...When new Kahrs like to run on the wet side so keep her clean and well lubed and it will get better....

The hand rack can be done but it takes practice and a very well broken in pistol...My PM40 will sling shot the first round every time now and thats all I use but with a new gun with less than a couple thousand rounds down range it may take a while for yours to do it consistently and definitely pick up some some new outer recoil springs if it keeps doing the fail to go to battery deal...

Now as for David's Gun Room and the gunsmith service I posted about, to their credit the gunsmith they use is not an employee but a contractor which is true of most LGS and the work performed shouldn't reflect on David's which seems to be a decent shop...There is a fellow there named Harley who is a great salesman, very friendly and knowledgeable and I try to wait on him when I shop there....I am surprised you got any kind of deal from them as in my experience they won't come off the listed price for anything but you did get a great deal your rifle...

For a grip cover look at the Hogue Handall Jr. slip on and they do help folks with large hands get a better grip and some folks install them upside down which seems to work better for some reason...I tried one but didn't like it as well as using a bike inner tube like Wyntrout said as it is sticky without adding width...Some folks here like the A-grip so look at them also...

As for the shooting to the right thing it may be the sights are off a little so let a couple other good shooters try it and see if the problem remains or changes between shooters....A common problem with right handed shooters is to pull low and left especially shooters with large hands....I have small to medium hands and found that if I use a lot more trigger finger up to the first joint I stopped the low left stuff...

These aren't target pistols but are capable of excellent accuracy in a good shooters hand but practice practice practice is required....As for sights, thats purely personal...I think there are some here that have the Big Dots and like them but thats up to you...I sent my slide to Trijicon and had a yellow front and green rear night sights installed and that works well for me...The folks at Trijicon are very nice and the turn around was like 10 days or so...Sorry for the long post but folks here at Kahrtalk always like to help out a new Kahr guy any way we can....Good luck to another Jaw Ja guy and shoot um up!!!

[AC7880]

Just a note on the slingshot method: you pull all the way back, then release cleanly letting the spring move the slide forward. Done cleanly, it has the same effect as locking the slide back then releasing.

What does not work well is racking the slide both back and forward with your hand on the slide for the forward movement to chamber the round.

[jocko]

no doubt the best method is the push/pull racking. Pushing forward with one hand while pulling back the slide witht he other hand. Opposite forces works better than just a death grip and merely pulling back the slide and releasing. Just sayin

[WildCotton]

GetSome,
I apologize for the blanket statement about DGR. But as I said, the majority of my visits there for the purpose of looking for a new firearm, left a lot to be desired. I'm sure they do the best that they can and the fact that they've been around for so many years is a testimony to the fact that they must be doing something right. I like to give positive feedback when someone does a good job so I will add that the gunsmith(s) at DGR did an excellent job installing Trijicon night sights to two of my Glocks (23 and 19). Those installs were performed years ago and are still working flawlessly.

All,
Thanks for the continued feedback and comments. I have learned from each and every post. At this point, I am trying to be a sponge and soak up as much information about Kahr and the PM9.

I stopped by the range again at lunch today and put another box through my PM9. No failures. Same as yesterday, when I aimed at the "center mass" area of the target, I tended to hit low and to the right. When aiming at the "head," I was still hitting a little to the right. If I purposely aimed a little to the left, I hit dead center of the "head." I actually took a break and asked one of the employees in the shop if he would take a couple shots and see if he would have similar results (I asked if he would shoot it for me. I didn't mention how I was shooting because I didn't want to influence his aiming.) but he declined my offer b/c he said that they didn't have enough employees on the floor at that time. I'll make sure that next time I go to the range, I go at a less-busy time and see if I can have someone other than myself shoot the PM9 and see if they get the same results.

Its worth mentioning that after I completed my range session, I was poking around, looking at some other pistols and spoke with a different salesman, who happens to be a shooting instructor. I told him how I was hitting low and to the right. He said that I may be "using too much trigger finger" and that could possibly be my problem. (Does this sound plausible?) He then tried to sign me up for taking one of his instructional classes...

As far as grips / grip sleeves, I need something relatively slim, as I do not have large hands. FYI, most gloves I purchase are either Medium or Small. I have seen in several videos on YouTube, pistols with what looks like a simple WIDE rubber band that goes around the grip. I'm not sure if this is a product available on the market or a home-made concoction.

Before it is suggested, I do not think that I am interested in a product like Talon's "Grip Tape." I don't want to put a permanent adhesive product on the grip. I am wanting to make the grip a little friendlier feeling.

Also, after reading a couple of the posts, I am no longer completely sold on the XS Big Dots. Back to the drawing board...

Sorry for another LOOOOONG post. But you guys are really helping me out with all of your knowledge and experience. Keep it coming!

Kind Regards,
~WC~

[Bawanna]

A hunk of innertube or a qwik grip will fix your grip perfectly. The too much finger is very viable and could be the case.

Many new Kahr shooters shoot low and left until they get used to the trigger. I'm certain its just the finger as mention or unfamiliarity, and not the gun.

Give it time and I think it will fix itself.

[getsome]

The inner tube deal works well for me...I went to wally world and bought a 26 inch bike tube and started experimenting...If you cut a piece about the size you want then turn it inside out it gets rid of the ridge in the rubber and is smoother to the hand but still sticky just be sure to wash it with dish soap to get rid of the powder sticking to the rubber...I had to cut several before I got it just the right size and shape and still have several feet of tube left over...total cost about 6 bucks...You have to work with it a bit to slide it onto the grip but once there it will stay and not need any adhesive...

I liked how the Hogue Handall Jr felt alright but since I right front pocket carry the extra width caused it to stick inside the pocket and made it hard to draw but the tube deal works fine and really helps with the Kahr cheese grater grip they have...Give it a try and if you hate it you haven't lost anything....

What range do you shoot at WildCotton?....What the instructor said about too much trigger finger can be a problem on a target or full size gun and you should be only using the pad of the index finger to squeeze with but I find with the PM size guns trying to use that method I just cant get a comfortable grip but if I use more trigger finger up to the first joint I get a much better, tighter more consistant grip and am able to pull the smooth but LONG Kahr trigger and shoot much better groups....I feel good to keep most shots on a paper plate size target at 6-7 yards and thats more than good enough for me and my old eyes...

[CB3]

I used slip-on grips for my carry pistols for a number of years. Twice at IDPA competitions as I was reloading during a stage my mag would not enter the magwell. I found that in running the previous mag(s) into the grip hard while grasping the rubber, it would slide down the grip, eventually interfering with the mag well. I could get a mag out, but I could not get another one in.

I won't induce such a liability to a self defense pistol.

I switched to Agrips and have been very happy. They do not leave an adhesive residue when you take them off, and they will not move once in place. Kahr sells them, as do a number of other retailers, including the manufacturer: Brooks Tactical. Not as squishy as a rubber slip-on, and about equal to an inner tube section for recoil reduction. http://www.brookstactical.com/

[O'Dell]

I always thought that DGR and Tucker were way high, but I haven't been to either in a while and never had any gun smithing done there. If buying local, I usually purchase at Bullseye in Lawrenceville. Their prices are pretty good, but the one time I had some work done by their contracted smith, I was disappointed. The bottom line is that I don't know of a good smith in Atlanta.

I will agree that paying Kahr $200 would be a waste of money. New springs may help, but probably so would putting more rounds downrange. I also agree that Kahrs and SIG's generally like to be run wet. I like grease on the rails and barrel with oil everywhere else. I clean and lube after every firing, and have never had a problem with a Kahr.

[WildCotton]

Getsome,
Do you have a picture of the inner-tube grip installed on your PM?

GetSome & O'Del,
I bounce between Athens and Duluth. I purchased my PM9 at Bulls Eye about three weeks ago. As of this afternoon, they STILL have the "used" PM9094N that I was originally interested in purchasing. As I stated in a previous thread, I was going back and forth for over a week trying to decide between a used PM9 and a new XPS. Overall, I liked the PM9 more but at the time and for me, the XPS was more accurate.

On a Monday night, after reading a plethora of replies to my questions and comments, the guys on this site convinced me to go with the used PM9. The next afternoon when I went in to buy it, there was another "slightly used" PM9094 sitting in the case. (I was originally going to go to Bulls Eye first thing in the morning, but thankfully I was delayed. The 9094 was traded in just an hour or so before I arrived!) Since at the time, I was going to add XS Big Dots, it was a no brainer! Plus, the 9094 was over a $100 less and it was the coveted "bull-nose" design to boot!

All,
I'm not much of a do-it-your-self kind of guy, but I may try the inner-tube grip project. I will also look at the Hogue Handall Jr. I mentioned in my last post about the rubber band looking grip; has anyone else seen this product? It looked almost perfect for what I think I need. Since I can't find anything resembling it on the world wide web, I am starting to think that either I made it up in my mind or it is simply just a think, wide rubber band. But to the best of my memory, I remember seeing a blue band on the grip in YouTube video(s). I've watched so many, including most of Hickok45's videos, it would be impossible for me to try to find it again. I would be very interested to know if anyone out there know's what I am referring to so I don't think that I am completely crazy!

I know that I have gone way off topic from my original post so I appreciate your patience. I would hate to start a bunch of threads for each of my inquiries.

Again, I appreciate all of your support and insight!

Re,
~WC~

[jocko]

coveted BLUNT NOSE Just the best of the best. do the prep as if it was a new gun and then just shoot it like u stole it.

[JFootin]

As far as grips / grip sleeves, I need something relatively slim, as I do not have large hands. FYI, most gloves I purchase are either Medium or Small. I have seen in several videos on YouTube, pistols with what looks like a simple WIDE rubber band that goes around the grip. I'm not sure if this is a product available on the market or a home-made concoction.

I have very small hands and I use the Qwik-Grip rubber grip sleeve because it doesn't have any palm swells or finger grooves. Just a thin rubber sleeve that fits the PM9/CM9 grip perfectly.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1150&CAT=84

[WildCotton]

Jocko,

I'm glad you picked up on the "coveted" reference. I used that word specifically with you in mind...

And all BS aside, you were one of the main people that I was referring to when I said "... guys on this site convinced me to go with the used PM9." You're knowledge, confidence, and faith in a USED Kahr really pursue me into making the decision that I did. And I am grateful to you for it.

When I saw the two, the 9094N (new nose) and 9094 (bull-nose) side by side, the decision had already been made! I still can't believe my luck! An already broken in, black, bull-nose, w/o NS, PM9 for a helluva price. It was akin to the skies parting and direct Divine intervention! Ha!

Re,
~WC~

[pudge]

Gentlemen,

I must take some exception to the negative comments concerning the Bid Dot or any tritium type dot for the front sight. I fully recognize that these small guns are intended primarily for very close range use and for personal defense. Understand that I am all for using sights, but I also recognize that when the flag flys and the SHTF, none of us are very likely to deliberately use those sights, at least not in the same way we use them at the range when we are trying hard to shoot small groups.

With practice, one can do a very passable job of point shooting at close range, and that's good, because if someone is pointing a handgun (or any gun) at you, you will likely be focuse seriously on the hole in the end of the barrel of that gun. And it's not very likely that you will ever remove your focus from that threat. It's just human nature. I've been there. I can tell you that when someone is attacking you with a knife, you can probably describe that knife pretty well after the fact, but you may not be able to give much of a description of the facial features of the fellow who held the knife unless you saw him first without the knife showing.

I am also getting older, and much to my chagrin (that means utter disgust in my case!), my eyesight has deteriorated to the point where I cannot focus on my front sight through my trifocals without lifting my head so I can peer through the center choice. It is also difficult to see the daylight that's supposed to be showing on either side of that front sight. I trained (a lot) for many, many years, primarily with the kind of revolver that I was issued for everyday duty carry. I wasn't a half bad shot. If I didn't shoot the standard PPC qualification course cleanly, double action at every shot (60 rounds), I was not pleased. There is no way I could do that today. I can't see the sights well enough to do so.

An effective solution for those of us who have this problem, especially for those of us using our handguns primarily for the purpose of self defense, is to try to break the ingrained habit of focusing on that front sight. At close range, out to about 7 yards or so, we should focus on the target, which is where we are probably going to be focusing anyway in a serious social encounter. With the firearm held out in front of us pointing toward the predator, at close distances we should have no trouble directing a few rounds pretty close to where we'd like them to hit. When the SHTF, I'll take pretty close, considering that I probably will direct more than one round in that direction anyway.

These days, I use a small sized paper plate for my practice. I draw a circle around a quarter in the center of the plate for an aiming point, but I am satisfied if I keep all my rounds on that small plate (6 or 8 inch diameter, depending on the brand). If that's not an acceptable group for you, get a paper saucer instead of the plate, or trim a plate to the smaller size. Some of you younger guys are probably grinning a bit at this advice. Trust me, a few years back, I would have done the same. But things are what they are, and we have to make the best of them. Your turn will come, if you live long enough.

Now back to the Big Dot sight discussion ... I can tell you that if you can hold that Big Dot on the plate and discharge your firearm without upsetting that aim, you will hit the plate. And having that Big Dot in place makes it a lot easier to hold your point of aim on that plate. Granted if the distance is longer than the distance mentioned above, then you've gotta be a little more precise, but since I can't be very precise anyway, the "V" notch rear sight that matches up with the Big Dot front sight makes that much easier for me than trying to find that rear sight notch on a conventional sight. And the bonus is that when the sun goes down and the lights are off, I can still see that big ole dot shining up front and it is no trouble at all to hold it where I want the bullet to hit. Now the challenge is mostly just pressing that trigger without yanking that big ole sight or jerking the trigger. If your grip is decent and you have practiced orienting your gun with your body, then your aim should be fairly close to begin with.

Big Dot sights have a purpose. Decent target shooting can be done with them at longer distances than most serious social encounters take place if necessary, but in my considered opinion, they have no equal at close range. You can see that front sight. It may not be exactly lined up right over that rear tritium post in the bottom of the V notch rear sight, but if you can see it and the fuzzy rear sight in your field of view, you should be able to achieve the desired result. Like anything else, it takes practice. Paper plates are cheap. Ammo is expensive, but when you can see where your bullets strike, you can know you are being effective.

I used to have the target shooting mindset, and it probably stood in my way somewhat as far as quick effective SHTF shooting. You have to know where your advice is coming from, and you have to know what you personally are trying to achieve. Would I recommend a Big Dot for competition shooting? NO WAY! But for a pocket rocket or a bedside companion, or an everyday all day and all night long carry piece, I'd highly recommend that you give it serious consideration. Shooting with one is a bit different, but it works and works well for self defense purposes, especially if you'll practice with it realistically.

Hang up some paper plates at a range or place where you can shoot at it. Shoot at it and move. Shoot at it quickly. Draw and shoot at it. Remember at first that slow is smooth, and smooth becomes fast. If you can keep all your rounds on the plate, however and from whatever position you fire from, you will get the job done. As I said, again IMO, one should never fire one round at a predator and then stop and look to see what effect it had. The predator might be dead, but he won't likely stop trying to hurt you for ten or fifteen seconds. Do you have any idea how long that can be? Shoot him, maybe twice, move a step and do it again, and again, till he quits trying to hurt you. See the place you want those bullets to go, and if you can see that Big Dot in the same place, deliver them!

Sorry for the long winded post, but I want you to know where I'm coming from. I like to hear what everyone has to say, and I try as hard as I can to understand where they are coming from. Most of us have good reasons for thinking what we think, but we shouldn't make a hard and fast decision about something as serious as this without fully putting what we've heard to the test. What works for one of us may not work for anyone else, and certainly won't work for all of us. Each of us has to work out for ourselves what works best for ourselves. This is posted for whatever it might be worth. It's certainly not the last word. You guys don't know me, beyond what I've said above. But just think about what I've said. Keep it or trash it, that's up to you. But I really, really do think if you dismiss the Big Dot sights out of hand, you'll be doing yourself a disservice, especially if you intend to use your heater for self defense! Thanks for reading this far ...

[wyntrout]

Good post, Pudge.

Wynn:)

[JFootin]

Good post, Pudge.

Wynn:)

+1.

[jocko]

nice post. POA and big dot sights seem to work great at distances under 10 yards. If u think ur gonna see those sights in a shtf situation, IMO ur fooling urself. At best u might see the front sight, but at best if u see the object ur trying to hit, the sights normally will fall in place and ur gonna be close,(its called POA shooting) Were not shootin at one's shirt buttons in a shtf sitaution, but we are shooting at the COM and hopeing to be around that area. Ur follin yourself if u think ur gonna shoot a2 or 3" group in a shtf situation.

Not trying to down grade u good shooters either. U can run around barrels, crawl around doors, do what ever you want but when ur shooint at paper targets, IT JUST AIN';T THE SAME. No doubt it is the best we can do..

As most every bowhunter today who has had a super buck within 10 yards. Adrenalin flow is massive. Just sayin..

[pudge]

You might say its adrenalin overdose, jocko. IF such a situation should occur to the very large majority of us, we'll be lucky to find the handle on our shooterr. And unless we have been practicing being aware and alert and prepared for such an event, it'll probably be over before we can even have a chance to respond. Not many can draw, fire and shoot, much less hit anything before a shooter holding a gun pointed at them can trigger off a round.

But then we have to practice at something, don't we? We can at least confirm that our blaster will go bang most of the time, and we can find out if we can hit that paper plate when we are not under the influence of adrenalin. That beats knowng nothing, IMO. The fact is that being ready to shoot another person, even if fully justified, requires a mind set that requires cultivation. And it is beneficial to think of situations (while you are daydreaming) and think about what you'd do and how you'd handle them if they happened.

Self defense is just that ... defense. The person on offense has the great advantage of knowing when he's gonna start or do something. So that means the person on defense is going to react instead of act. When you know when you are gonna start, you've got a minimum of a second or two over the person reacting to your start. He who hesitates most often loses. And starting out behind makes it exceedingly difficult to ever catch up! What many of us talk about doing is more mental than physical, and most of us spend all our time on the physical part. And it's really hard to imagine just how amped a person gets when they see the big hole in the end of a gun barrel and it's pointing at them! Thankfully most of us don't ever have to know what that feels like. But it chills your excrement and tends to cause you to just flat lock up and stare.

But I still say that if I have my choice of looking over a big bright tritium dot when it is dark, or a big white dot when it is light, I'll take that over not having anything at all to possibly see when I point my gun after the flag flies! And I'm gonna do my very best to recognize that the flag is fixing to fly and be ready to start on my own time rather than reacting to what's already happening ...

[jocko]

good point. no static from this ol timer. I guess it is why we practice, as we can't practice on real live things. I wonder how those christians felt when being thrown to the lions for the Romans all to watch. I think that was whent he wod SUICIDE came about. JUust sayin.

[pudge]

That's as good a guess as any, jocko. I'm amazed at the things folks who can face when they are truly dedicated. And it's really a good thing that we can't practice on live folks ... I can call to mind a few that I'd probably start with!!!!:D

[WildCotton]

Pudge,
Thanks for the post. I appreciate detail-oriented perspectives. The Big Dots are back to being high on my list to install on my PM9.

All,
I have been involved in two incidents where a handgun was involved. One good, one bad.

In the first incident, which was years ago, I was the one holding the gun. I came home from work early on a Friday. I had already grabbed a beer and was waiting for my GF to wake up from a nap she was taking in my bedroom. Upon waking up, she said she thought she heard a noise coming from the basement. I went outside and looked through the windows and saw a large, shirtless male, stumbling around. I ran back inside, grabbed my G23 and told my GF to call 911. Gun drawn, I opened the basement door to find him at the bottom landing, looking up at me dazed, confused, and surprised as Hell to be looking at the business end of a barrel. Luckily, I got the drop on him. Several of times, I had to warn him about moving, finally forcing him to sit "Indian Style." Due to that pistol, I was able to safely hold him until the authorities arrived.

I can tell you honestly, I was scared out of my mind, despite having the higher ground and upper hand. I have never had so much adrenaline pumping through my system, I could barely feel my feet and had a strange ringing sound in my ears. I am proud that I kept a cool head and made good decisions throughout that entire incident. I ask myself from time to time, if this intruder were to have attempted to rush me or if he continued to walk up those stairs, would I have pulled the trigger? Thankfully, I didn't have to make that split-second decision. I was 25 years old at that time.

Ten years later, things didn't go so well, as I was the one staring at business end of a gun. This past summer I closed up my retail shop for the evening. As I was walking out the door, a man rushed me with a gun already drawn. In one hand I held my keys and in the other, I was holding a variety of items (books, laptop, moneybag, ect). Besides a Benchmade knife, I was unarmed and I was defenseless. All I could do was comply to his instructions. I calmly gave up the money, my phone, wallet, watch, keys, iPhone and of course, my treasured Benchmade. And I prayed. I was eventually zip-tied and locked in my store bathroom. Luckily, only my pride was hurt.

I have carried a pistol in my various personal vehicles since I was 21. I have had one by my bedside for nearly as long. But until I was robbed that night, I never concealed carried. Now, I don't leave the house without one.

That said, in my 2nd incident, if I had had a pistol on me, I wonder how the scenario would have played out. Would I have had the opportunity to pull the gun and shoot? Or would there be another gun in the hands of a criminal? If I had had a gun and if I was able to draw and shoot, would I have hit him before he fired back? Or would I even be here today, worried about what night sights to put on a damn polymer pistol? There is no way to really know for sure. I'll never know "what might have been." But I can honestly say, it feels good being here, typing this post.

I am a better person for that event. One thing is sure, I am now a whole lot more vigilant about how I conduct my day to day life. I am more aware of my surroundings and the people around me. Now, every time I walk into a store, gas station, restaurant, etc, I check for possible threats and keep a keen eye on the people around me and watch their movements. I have certainly altered how I do simple things like entering and exiting buildings, locking and unlocking doors, and getting in and out of my vehicle. My whole life has changed as well as how I view people in general.

So, in situation that I just described, would the Big Dots have been an advantage or disadvantage? Well, I will say this, it was dark outside...

Sorry for the long and probably way-too-detailed-story, but I figured it was pertinent to the topic at hand. I also apologize that this thread has gone off track from the original topic. Or has it?

Re,
~WC~

[pudge]

I think it's pertinent, WC. And I appreciate your perspective about both of these two incidents. You are a better person for having survived both events. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Sadly, if the second incident were to happen today, those predators would not likely have left you alive. That's the difference between today and a few years ago. We all learn, if we pay attention, to the things that happen to us. Your relating of these real life incidents is valuable to us all, if we are smart enough to pay attention.

Let me say that if you hadn't been scared spitless both times, something seriously would be wrong with you. It ain't about not being scared ... if you are a normal human being, you will be. Courage is not the lack of fear, it's doing what needs to be done in spite of being scared to death! Trust me, nobody want to take another life, not if they are right in their head. But sometimes that's necessary. Hindsight is always different from what we can see in the present circumstances. We tend to be hard on ourselves sometimes, but if we can say we did the best we could with what we had to do with at the time, no one else could have done any better! It sounds to me like you acquitted yourself well in both situations, considering your options with what you had. Your very best weapon or tool is the gray matter in your head.

I believe your present state of mind is excellent. If we do not recognize that it's up to each of us to take care of ourselves and make serious preparations to do so, then we are way behind. It only takes a couple of seconds behind to lose the game! Thanks for relating your stories. They were and are very valuable to me. Having a gun isn't a magic pill, and having a Big Dot sight is not the answer to every problem. You and I won't know whether they make a real difference until we are in a situation where we use them, and I pray we won't ever have to find out. You may not like it. I don't like it for some things, but for my personal protection gun, it is the best sight I've found. IF .... IF.... I am able to see any sight at all, I believe I will see this one, and I have no doubt that being able to see it and hold it on the place I want my bullet to land will be much better than not having it. Lots of folks who own guns and have them around somewhere in their vehicles and homes don't understand why I don't go to the bathroom without mine. But if you need it and you cannot lay your hand on it instantly, it might as well be back in the gun store! Good luck to you, Sir!

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I have a Big Dot on my m&p9c. I put a Dawson tritium on my CW9, and notched the rear sight like the big dot.

I bowhunt alot. I shoot with and without sights. some of the best shots I've ever made were on running / charging hogs with tradtional sightless bows. . I have no recollection of even seeing the arrow until it was in the hog. That said, it's the practice-practice-practice with sights that will get you pointed in the right direction when you need it. Even if you don't see ir use the sight at a critical shot, you'll be surprised what trained muscle memory will do for you. Steve

[CB3]

^^^ This. The extra money you spend on sights and fufu accessories won't make you shoot better in a bad situation unless you have practiced in real conditions, not shooting paper at 5 yards on a square range. Take the same money, buy more ammo and sign up for a force-on-force shooting class. You'll be glad you did.