XS Big Dot - front only. Sight picture?

[wagon]

Thinking of putting a front-only Big Dot on the CW9 / CM9, but unsure how it works out with the factory rear-sight. Anyone has this set up can comment on?

Would the "standard dot" version a better option than a Big Dot if I am to stick with the factory rear?

Thanks.

[jocko]

I have been told the factory back site is the same height as if u bought the xs set. so IMO, go for it. much simpler to do urself and ur gonna nevermiss that back sight. Just sayin

[FLBri]

From my experience (P380 with XS Big Dot) you are never going to match shoot with big dot sights. I have never been able to get the handle on a high accuracy sight picture. On the other hand, if defense is the reason for the particular weapon, front sight acquisition is critical and nothing I have seen is faster acquired than a Big Dot front sight. If I'm a half inch low or high at 20 ft. but in dim light still resolve the situation ... I'm good with that!

... ok, maybe a tritium fiber optic front but they are not available for my 380 yet.

[wagon]

Tks, guys. I have never plan to shoot CM for target shooting... "group size" of a honeydew is more than nuff for my 7-10 yd shooting. :-)

I am just wondering if the rear slot is too narrow to see the whole "big dot". But are you saying that the sight picture should have the Big Dot sits on top of the rear sight, instead of sitting on top of the "i" (thru the slot)?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I have big dots on my M&P. you really need the open rear sight to see the dot. I put a dawson night sight on the front of my CW9, and hogged out the rear sight like my XS. It's surprising how accurate you can be, especially is a fast combat scenario. I shoot local concealed carry matches, and sight aquisition with the big dots is superior to a more standard 3 dot sight. Steve

[APSKahr]

Just curious, have you tried painting your front sight white then bright orange? It will give you a bright front sight that is the "good enough" you want for fast close in shooting without totally giving up any accuracy at longer distance (or precision shot at that close range). It's much easier for your eye to tell if straight lines are mis-aligned than if curved ones are.
I have an XS front sight on my LCR and "good enough" in the chest at close distance but dang you really have to concentrate to make a head shot.
I painted the front dawson tritium sight on my CM9 white then orange and it's great.

[wagon]

APS - no I have not, and I am no good in painting (I have found that out...) so I prefer not to mess with it.

Steve - not sure what you mean by "hogged out", you meant you widen the slot of your rear sight? So, in your case, the dot sits on the "I" and not to the top of your rear-sight? If Big Dot is too big for the factory-rear, what about the "standard dot" version?

[pudge]

Wagon,

I'm a senior, with commensurate eyesight, or lack thereof. I have a big dot on my P45. It happens to have the "V" notch rear sight as well. But it's my experience that if you hold that big dot right on the spot you want your bullet to hit with any rear sight anywhere near lined up with that big dot, your honeydew will be leaking honey! For those of us whose eyesight is deteriorating, focus on the front sight is becoming a thing of the past, and even if you can see the front sight pretty well, seeing daylight on either side of it through the rear sight is likely not a doable thing, especially for precision shooting.

Minute of bad guy is different from precision shooting. Yes, we need to hit close to where we aim, and we need to aim for a good spot, but sit that honeydew (or a small paper plate) up in front of you at ranges from bad breath distance out to about 7 yards. Take a good grip and hold on your handgun, put that front sight on the target center, don't worry much about where the rear sight is, and press the trigger and see what happens. The truth is that if you put your front sight where you want to hit at SD ranges usually involved, and press the trigger two or three or four times without jerking or yanking the trigger, you'll get the job done pretty well. Look out over the top of your handgun, and if you can see the gun pointing at the target at these distances with the front sight held where you want it, you will be good to go!

In my experience, that Big Dot sight is the best I've ever had for this kind of shooting. I would say you can use it just fine with your standard rear sight. Put it on paper with the dot lined up so you can see it well above the rear sight notch and see where it hits. Truth is, when the SHTF, most of us won't see either front or rear sight. We are going to be focused on the threat!!:eek: If you notice that Big Dot while doing so, all the better!! And you are more likely to see the Big Dot than any other front sight, IMO.

[hardscrabble]

My jury is still out. I bought a bargain basement like-new HKP2000sk that had the darn things on there. I have maybe half a thousand rounds with the Big Dots, and I think I like 'em. IMO, that big front dot is not going to work comfortably with a "regular" rear notch. You won't see daylight around it, which means it won't center for you.

Certainly not for target shooting, anyway, but you might not even get minute of barn door.

[jocko]

do u really think in a SHTF sitaultion ur gonna see daylight around the rear notch??? U will be lucky if u see the big dot sight let alone the rear sight. It is basically a very accurate POA close up sight, never meant to be a target sight, or a long distant sight. I there was no rear sight on the gun u would shoot it almost as good POA at 7 yards and u would certainly be faster in target acquisition..

[wagon]

Pudge, sounded like we are in the same league.. as far as eye sight goes. I have TruGlo on my G19 which I shoot IDPA with, and I like it a lot, too bad that they don't have offer for Kahrs.

All replies to my question make good sense.. and thanks for everyone's feedback.. I will post pix after I got the BD on the CM.

Thanks again.

[jocko]

I wear no line bi focals and atmy age, my eye sight is not that good either, so the big dots are PRICELESS to me. I think maybe age plays a factor in some sights ovber some utter sights etc. they all work great. Like amo find what please u ans just stick with it.

I am guilty of really never shootig at dark., How many really do train for dark conflicts?? Be honest. Most would say I don't. so NIGHT SIGHTS. WTF. But we all gotta have um. I tend to see my fibver optic sights on my G19 far better than any sight system I HAVE EVER HAD in the day light. aWESOME SIGHTS imo.

[pudge]

Plus one on what jocko said, even about the FO sights, but they don't do much good at night. Big Dots do. I have participated in training during which both sights were taped over to make conventional sighting impossible. Shooting was done only after the training described below was done This was very slow, very deliberate, very controlled firing in bright daylight.

Great emphasis was given on correct grip on a properly fitting handgun, with the firearm well centered on the shooter's chest and held under tension with both arms extended in an isoceles type manner. A good bit of time was spent drawing slowly, getting the good grip, bringing the weapon up to line of sight height and pointing it generally at the target. After performing this exercise to the point where each shooter was familiar with the process and was basically doing the exercise the same each time, the target was introduced into the equasion. Each shooter was asked to begin the exercise with eyes closed, and when the weapon was at full extension and in place to fire, the shooter was to open his eyes and see where the firearm was pointed. If it was not centered on the target, the shooter was instructed to move only his feet to line up the weapon with the aiming point on the target. Once lined up with the body positioned correctly, it became apparent that a shooter could do a really good job of "aiming" a firearm by holding it in the manner described and then moving the body or using the body to aim without moving the arms.

Now it's obvious that you cannot always do such a thing, but it's a good thing to know. It's also a good thing to learn that you can get very good hits on a target with BOTH sights obscurred with tape. You can practice holding your firearm centered on your own body with both hands, and learn that you can aim it pretty darn well that way. You can also learn that you can do a passable job of hitting your intended target by what is called point shooting, which is argued over incessantly. I'm talking about close range shooting, where there is no time for the luxury of sights. You'd be surprised what you can do this way if you have some confidence in the results after some serious practice doing it. Having confidence in this sort of thing pays huge dividends.

I've had the opportunity to be inside the loop on several such shootings. I've always asked the guys if they remember seeing or using their sights. If it was a SHTF situation and the guy was standing closely enough to the fan to be hit with the shiite, he pointed his firearm and pulled the trigger. I'm convinced that a Big Dot sight on the front of the firearm just might have resulted in some of these guys remembering that they saw it during the event. Yeah, that's speculation, but it's based on experience. Back in those days, tritium night sights were just a gleam in someone's eye, and even then, they didn't know what was causing the gleam.

I'd have given a lot of money for a set of night sights during the multitude of hours of darkness I was faced with the possibility of needing to make a good shot. The training mentioned above was the best thing I had at the time to do that. I have used three dot night sights quite a bit. Even when I could see sights much better than I can these days, I came to like the night sight on the front sight only, even at night. Any time I was in a hurry, I just wanted to know where that front glow was pointing. If it was on the target, and the target was at close range, I was good to go! These days, the three dot night sights tend to all blur together, rather than being seen by me as three distinct dots. When there is only one dot, and especially if that dot is a big honkin' glow, then I'm as good as I'm gonna get.

I've got a Wilson 1911. It has two tiny amber tritium dots on either side of the rear sight notch. The front sight has a larger green regular sized tritium dot. I can make that work pretty well. But I still much prefer the Big Dot on my Kahr. As I've said elsewhere, I also have the "V" notch rear sight with the tritium post in the center. That works very well for a more precision shot, if you've got the time to use it. If you don't have the time, just the big dot up front gets it done.

Sorry to take up so much space here ... just want you to know where I'm coming from with all this. Everything is a work in progress, and just about the time you have all your ducks lined up, old age or something else makes further adjustment and accomodations necessary. But I have come to understand that the very large majority of times when self defense shooting is called for, it will be in a hurry and it will be in low light or darkness. Nothing is best for all conditions and circumstances, so we must decide what is the most likely to work in most of those situations. There are always compromises that have to be made, unless you carry two or three different heaters set up for different conditions and circumstances. We play the percentages, and chose what has the highest percentage of chance of doing the job that needs doing. Most self defense work is done up (very) close and personal and much of it is done in darkness. I can see that big old dot well in daylight, and I can see it well at night. I'm happy with that for me.

[AIRret]

Thanks for the post pudge, and no it wasn't too long.

[JFootin]

A lot of good insights based on experience. Thanks for sharing Pudge.

[pudge]

Guys,

Thanks for the positive comments on my comments. But I tend to feel that most here are pretty common sense guys, and that most here will think about somebody posts to sort out the BS and crap from the stuff that might be worthwhile. Anybody can post anything on the net, and you don't know anything about me for sure, so I encourage you to think about anything I say for a while and see if your BS meter goes off. I've been wrong before, a lot! And usually when I'm wrongest is when I said something out loud the loudest!

There is potentially a lot to learn here on the net, and some of of it is learning what NOT to do! Ultimately you ... each of us ... has to decide if what we read or hear somebody saying is worth trying or doing. The very last thing in the world I want to do is lead somebody astray or down the wrong road. But be careful ... it might happen. That's why I always say that this is what I do, this is what has worked for me. And I do not mind critical comments or disagreements with what I've said. They are worth listening to and thinking about since I could be in need of rethinking something. And I might just find out something I don't know. I'm pretty opinionated and fairly certain of what I do and what I think about things, but I also try to keep an open mind. My old daddy used to tell me to learn from the mistakes of others since there was no way I would ever live long enough to make them all myself! He was right ... good advice!

I appreciate you guys letting me put what I think down here on paper. It kinda gets it out where I can see it myself and I may even change my mind about it after I read it over or hear what you have to say about it. There are a lot of folks with more experience and knowledge than me, and I appreciate being exposed here to all your comments about things that are discussed here. We gotta keep learning and getting better if we can. If you ain't living, then you are dying!!

[KCAutoBob]

I've been considering what to do about the standard sights on my PM9, and this thread's contributions, especially Pudge's input, is really interesting for me. Pudge's Wilson 1911 sight set-up is the same as what I did with a Browning Hi-Power for low light conditions. And reading his description of point shooting set-up, I found it to be really interesting. Basically my experience leads me to think the gun's entire profile is utilized in "point" or "instinctive" shooting. What sights? Basically at high speed, high stress, and close range, sights just might really slow you down. But at some point, you determine the distance, I think sights come back into the picture, so to speak, and more and more I'm thinking this X-S Big Dot sight system, which was originally developed from express type rifle sights, is the answer that I'm looking for.

[scattershot]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/scattershot/IMGP4505.jpgThis is a rear sight that I "hogged out" on a Glock. A few minutes with a 1/4" file is all it took, and you can really pick up that sight picture. I've been thinking of doing this to my CW45, as well, with the addition of a Big Dot..

[magtf388]

Any Pic of the Big Dots on a PM9?? Please post if you have...

thanks much

[wyntrout]

Scattershot, that looks like a good way to go. I might get my Kahr rear sight and and make sort of a "half-Ghost-ring" rear like that. I don't like the low vee that came with my Big Dots for my P40 and shoot low with them when I try to shoot "instinctively"... about 4 inches or more lower than with 3-dot sights with 7 yards. I'll have to try that. The XS rear is easily moved and I have a sight pusher for the rear.

Maybe that will put my Mag-na-ported P40 back into the #1 EDC position! I haven't carried it since getting the Big Dots, but I've been to the range 4-5 times and practiced with the LaserLyte training cartridge at home.

Wynn:)

[dorangolv]

Wagon,

I'm a senior, with commensurate eyesight, or lack thereof. I have a big dot on my P45. It happens to have the "V" notch rear sight as well. But it's my experience that if you hold that big dot right on the spot you want your bullet to hit with any rear sight anywhere near lined up with that big dot, your honeydew will be leaking honey! For those of us whose eyesight is deteriorating, focus on the front sight is becoming a thing of the past, and even if you can see the front sight pretty well, seeing daylight on either side of it through the rear sight is likely not a doable thing, especially for precision shooting.

Minute of bad guy is different from precision shooting. Yes, we need to hit close to where we aim, and we need to aim for a good spot, but sit that honeydew (or a small paper plate) up in front of you at ranges from bad breath distance out to about 7 yards. Take a good grip and hold on your handgun, put that front sight on the target center, don't worry much about where the rear sight is, and press the trigger and see what happens. The truth is that if you put your front sight where you want to hit at SD ranges usually involved, and press the trigger two or three or four times without jerking or yanking the trigger, you'll get the job done pretty well. Look out over the top of your handgun, and if you can see the gun pointing at the target at these distances with the front sight held where you want it, you will be good to go!

In my experience, that Big Dot sight is the best I've ever had for this kind of shooting. I would say you can use it just fine with your standard rear sight. Put it on paper with the dot lined up so you can see it well above the rear sight notch and see where it hits. Truth is, when the SHTF, most of us won't see either front or rear sight. We are going to be focused on the threat!!:eek: If you notice that Big Dot while doing so, all the better!! And you are more likely to see the Big Dot than any other front sight, IMO.

For my P45 I want the XS 24/7 Sights with Tritium for front and rear. Is that what you have on your P45?

[PYROhafe]

Wagon, I have a non illuminated xs rear site ill let go for super cheap. Xs sent me the wrong one when my illuminated went out. If your interested in going that route send me a pm and we can work out the details. I love my big dot on my cm9 btw.

[Bill K]

I do most all my SD practice threat focused. I suspect the big dot, even if just the front sight, once gotten used to would prove an asset.

[wyntrout]

I have a set of Trijicon coming in from our Marketplace and plan to replace that Tritium Low-Vee rear sight with the Trijicon 2-dot and see what that looks like. If I need to open up the rear notch a bit to make it wider... without harming the Tritium vials... I'll do that. I just can't get used to to that Low-Vee and can't "instinctively" shoot with it.

I hope that works and then I'll have a Tritium Low-Vee sight that I don't need. That's another project for after my Garage Sale/Home Gun Show this Friday and Saturday. I put an ad in the Times Union Thursday through Saturday, online version, too.

I really want to recoup some of the money I have spent since Thanksgiving! Today is peak delivery day... got 4 packages Monday, one yesterday and most should come today... another 7-8... all kinds of stuff. Got my two sets of roller chains for my AWD Savana Van yesterday... gonna be in snow country for about 3 weeks... SW Colorado. I don't know if we'll come back through Wolf Creek Pass, though!

Wynn:)

[cigarrodog]

In the dark, in a personal defense situation, on the back is secondary to what's on the front when it come's to Bid Dot on the front(if the sight is used at all). My Big Dot on the G26 is very bright.

[dorangolv]

"I've got a Wilson 1911. It has two tiny amber tritium dots on either side of the rear sight notch. The front sight has a larger green regular sized tritium dot. I can make that work pretty well. But I still much prefer the Big Dot on my Kahr. As I've said elsewhere, I also have the "V" notch rear sight with the tritium post in the center. That works very well for a more precision shot, if you've got the time to use it. If you don't have the time, just the big dot up front gets it done."

"I have a set of Trijicon coming in from our Marketplace and plan to replace that Tritium Low-Vee rear sight... "

I want my P45 set up with the XS 24/7 Tritium front and rear. Can't seem to nail down the proper part number, though. Every time I search, I find Tritium front with the non-Tritium rear "V" painted post.
Which one did you get?

[gb6491]

....

I want my P45 set up with the XS 24/7 Tritium front and rear. Can't seem to nail down the proper part number, though. Every time I search, I find Tritium front with the non-Tritium rear "V" painted post.
....
Kahr Tritium front and rear (Except E, CM & CW):
KA-0002S-5 is the item number for the 24/7 Big Dot Tritium Express Set
KA-0002S-6 is for the 24/7 Standard Dot Tritium Express Set

Kahr Tritium front/rear white stripe (Except E, CM & CW):
KA-0002S-3 is for the Big Dot Tritium Express Set - White Stripe
KA-0002S-4 is for the Standard Dot Tritium Express Set - White Stripe

[gb6491]

Wynn made an excellent post about using a two dot rear sight (some OEM rear sight info as well) with an XS big Dot front on his P40 here:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18306&page=3
Regards,
Greg