When to use your CM9

[Allen]

After breaking in my new CM9 I have started carrying it pretty regularly, particularly considering the problems in large parking lots, restaurants, and house break-ins. But I kind of have some "what if questions".

1) Since we eat out quite a bit I've always wondered what I'd do if someone entered the restaurant, seems it's usually a fast food, with a gun attempting to rob it and the patrons. Would I attempt to stop the person as soon as possible, or wait until I was actually threatened. If I acted before being actually threatened could I be held legally responsible if a by-stander is hurt?
What would you do?

2) If I saw someone being assaulted, car jacked, or robbed in a parking lot (seems to be happening in large box store parking lots recently) would I charge in to help. If the assaulant is shot and not killed it's a good chance I'd get sued or arrested and usually the victum doesn't want to get involved and won't take the side of the protector.
What would you do?

I know these are silly questions and probably will never happen but things like this are always in the back of my mind. As sue crazy as our society is getting anymore it makes a person question when to get involved and when to look the other way - and I hate that. I was brought up to always help the other person when ever possible.

If I'm just being parinoid please just ignore my questions. And hope everyone had a great Turkey Day.

[mluikey]

Allen, you bring up a good question and one I have asked myself many times. I carry a firearm to first and foremost protect myself and my family from harm. With that being said, if someone was holding up a store or a restaurant, I'd be hard pressed to not step in. I think each situation calls for its own unique reaction. A lot depends on where you are in relation to what is going on. Sometimes it is best to be a good witness and make great notes for the police, other times you might need to step up to the plate and take care of business. There is no black and white here.

[Bawanna]

I think your right to consider these scenarios in advance. It seems they never happen or never happen the way you plan.

Sometimes I think of these scenarios and consider that I'm not armed. Would I still get involved, run, submit?

I'm cursed with being a get involved kind of guy. I'm not gonna drive by somebody getting attacked. I stop for disabled motorist even though in a chair its not likely I'll be much help.

We live in a just walk on by society now days. Safer to not get involved, but it doesn't work for me.

I'd consider scenarios like your doing but not dwell on them, they won't play out per plan. You'll have to make your choices on the fly and hope for the best in the aftermath.

[AIRret]

Unfortunately, there's no one right answer, because there too many variables.
In my opinion you have to make your decision based on what you can live with. If you don't get involved will that haunt you? And if you do get involved how will the consequences affect you and your family.

[Popeye]

Unfortunately, there's no one right answer, because there too many variables.
In my opinion you have to make your decision based on what you can live with. If you don't get involved will that haunt you? And if you do get involved how will the consequences affect you and your family.

Well put. My License to carry says for self defense. All other senarios will be taken one at a time. CYA first as good intentions don't always turn out so well.

[jocko]

all good question, no good answers. What we say we would do know is certainly not what more than likely we will do in a shtf scenario. Until u have been there done that, u just don't know.

The ol John wayne days or Rambo days IMO are over. To much liability when u pull that gun. You bought the gun fgor ur ccw and defense, .

So u pull ur gun i a robery and shoot and miss and hit a civilian who had done nuttn wrong. Do u think ur clear from any liabliky??? Thats just a scenario , but just how good are u when a SHTF scenario comes into play????

My family definitely comes first, all else I will analyze the situation very carefully. and yes I could watch a robbery go down and do nuttin. When u strap on that gun, u assume one hell oif a liability, just remember that..

[Gadgetnut259]

If you pull your weapon and point it at someone, you need to be 100% ready and willing to shoot and kill that person. I personally would not want to do that to defend property. Every situation will be different, but if I had reason to believe that it could end with noone being harmed or shot, I'd choose that outcome every time. Now if I have reason to fear for my (or someone else's) safety, that's a whole different ballgame. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[skiflydive]

As I understand it there were 2 people at the shooting of Congressman Giffords who were CCW holders and carriers who didn't pull their weapons. Why? They weren't directly threatened and were not sure they wouldn't be shot too. Cowards? Uninvolved? I don't think so. Properly cautious is more like it

[CrabbyAzz]

As I understand it there were 2 people at the shooting of Congressman Giffords who were CCW holders and carriers who didn't pull their weapons. Why? They weren't directly threatened and were not sure they wouldn't be shot too. Cowards? Uninvolved? I don't think so. Properly cautious is more like it

It was so unexpected and happened so fast they were probably crapping their pants like everybody else. Robberies and other scenarios generally progress much slower offering time for you to think and prepare.

[jocko]

and how would they know if anutter person pulled a gun that he was not part of the planed shooting, so there fore now I who is carrying has to decide who to shoot etc. I think both shooters errored on the side of caution and certainly not knowing the complete situation until it was to late. Sure hind sight in that case was 20-20 but it is always that way. How would one know that she maybe didn't have her own undercover protection and now was they expected to pick the good guy form the bad guys with now 3 guns in full view etc and again would I as a spectator know who was her undercover person or could he be part of the killing scenario. In most cases like what happened to Gifford. The ..shooter/killer always has the first shot.. Just sayin

[jocko]

If you pull your weapon and point it at someone, you need to be 100% ready and willing to shoot and kill that person. I personally would not want to do that to defend property. Every situation will be different, but if I had reason to believe that it could end with noone being harmed or shot, I'd choose that outcome every time. Now if I have reason to fear for my (or someone else's) safety, that's a whole different ballgame. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

years ago when closing up my business which included a gun shop . two blackguys came into my place, one had a pump mossberg and the other a wheel gun. this was back in the days when drugs was not really a big part of hold ups etc. I was no John Wayne, I was just ol jocko thinkng, to myself. do nuttin give them what they want, don't try to go for my 38 special in the drawer with 2 guns pointed at u. I wanted to get home for supper with my family. They had the drop on me big time. I could not have won the gun fight. I gave them what money I had in the drawer and they went away, never to be seen again.

Scared sh!tless was I at that time, but I felt I did the right thing. My family wanted their dad home for supper, not dead from stupidity. My thoughts today was if I had tried to pull a gun, then I left the two BG with no choice but to shoot me. Anutter reason why I would never open carry either. U have now taken the elimite of surprise from the BG. Just sayin.. the above was not a scenario either.. I think about it alot even today. Many times when I go into a restaurant I position myself to what I think is an advantage point, what ever in the fokk that may be even..

[Gadgetnut259]

years ago when closing up my business which included a gun shop . two blackguys came into my place, one had a pump mossberg and the other a wheel gun. this was back in the days when drugs was not really a big part of hold ups etc. I was no John Wayne, I was just ol jocko thinkng, to myself. do nuttin give them what they want, don't try to go for my 38 special in the drawer with 2 guns pointed at u. I wanted to get home for supper with my family. They had the drop on me big time. I could not have won the gun fight. I gave them what money I had in the drawer and they went away, never to be seen again.

Scared sh!tless was I at that time, but I felt I did the right thing. My family wanted their dad home for supper, not dead from stupidity. My thoughts today was if I had tried to pull a gun, then I left the two BG with no choice but to shoot me. Anutter reason why I would never open carry either. U have now taken the elimite of surprise from the BG. Just sayin.. the above was not a scenario either.. I think about it alot even today. Many times when I go into a restaurant I position myself to what I think is an advantage point, what ever in the fokk that may be even..
Wow! Yeah, you definitely did the right thing. Sounds like if you had tried to be a billy-bad@ss and go for your gun, you'd most likely be dead now. Stuff can be replaced.

[hayfire]

Hey Allen, I am new to the conceal carry world myself, I would like to see all of us who CC get as much training as possible before we get into THAT situation. It is easy to say what we should do, but there are a lot of things that can go way wrong in any self defense scenario or others defense scenario and training pertaining to the actual laws of the state that you are in is the best way to know your options.

[Bawanna]

Sadly that's the most dangerous part of any self defense situation. Laws! While your staying within the parameters of the laws set forth by some know nothing probably liberal lawyer drop out politician. The bad guy unencumbered by such nonsense (he is a criminal) is killing you or your loved ones.
You always start out in second place and generally go down hill from there.
Sad when one ponders it.

[jocko]

Wow! Yeah, you definitely did the right thing. Sounds like if you had tried to be a billy-bad@ss and go for your gun, you'd most likely be dead now. Stuff can be replaced.

about it, what would this forum be like???Huh:behindsofa:

[Bawanna]

And we'd all sure miss ya too.

[GROTMAN]

I'd miss ya too! Course there may be a few more horses out there with their heads still attached that might have a different opinion. :)

[jocko]

I have not sent out a horse head in 3 months. You guys have been very nice. Just sayin.

[Tinman507]

Is that a challenge?

[PYROhafe]

Allen, Check into your state laws. I know here in SC you can "stand in someone else shoes" for a mugging or something of that sort. The problem there becomes if it was a drug deal gone bad, and all you saw was someone getting beat up, or at gun point, and you step in, well you've now broken the law. You can also defend the life of innocents and cannot be sued in civil court for doing so. So check out your local laws for sure.
I myself am new to carrying (just got the permit 4 days ago) and thought about all these things ahead of time (good thing to do) but I still think Im with the other guys... every situation is going to be different and you have to hope you act accordingly. Don't be a "hero" but if you can and should save others then go for it I guess. Hope that helped....

[CJB]

scenario #1 - take cover is possible, get ready for a gun fight that you plan on winning. Guy is INSIDE where you're eating... with gun, robbing folks... thats a direct threat to everyone inside.

senario #2 - too vague... and it depends on the locale. In Florida, you can use deadly force to stop what you reasonably believe is a felony in progress. Aggravated battery with robbery... possibly carjack in progress... felony for sure. So in Florida, you'd be ok. Cannot speak for other locales.

[Armybrat]

years ago when closing up my business which included a gun shop . two blackguys came into my place, one had a pump mossberg and the other a wheel gun. this was back in the days when drugs was not really a big part of hold ups etc. I was no John Wayne, I was just ol jocko thinkng, to myself. do nuttin give them what they want, don't try to go for my 38 special in the drawer with 2 guns pointed at u. I wanted to get home for supper with my family. They had the drop on me big time. I could not have won the gun fight. I gave them what money I had in the drawer and they went away, never to be seen again.

Scared sh!tless was I at that time, but I felt I did the right thing. My family wanted their dad home for supper, not dead from stupidity. My thoughts today was if I had tried to pull a gun, then I left the two BG with no choice but to shoot me. Anutter reason why I would never open carry either. U have now taken the elimite of surprise from the BG. Just sayin.. the above was not a scenario either.. I think about it alot even today. Many times when I go into a restaurant I position myself to what I think is an advantage point, what ever in the fokk that may be even..

That's about what I woulda done too, except to add that I'd probably need to change my britches afterwards.

[Allen]

Thanks for all the replys fellows. Just read in today's news where a homeowner in Minnesota shot 2 teen agers who had broken into his house stating that his house had be burglarized several times in the past. Only problem was once they were down he made darn sure they wouldn't get back up. Now he's charged with murder.
Kind of makes me wonder, if the bad guy was taken to the hospital and then jail would you be looking over your shoulder the rest of your life. Guess maybe the idea is to make sure that first shot is where it won't require a second one.
CCW is sort of like our liability and life insurance, we have it for our protection but hope we never use it.

[Popeye]

CCW is sort of like our liability and life insurance, we have it for our protection but hope we never use it.

Exactly. If anyone bought and carries a gun hoping they'd have to use it,then they are probably the type of person that should not be carrying a gun in the first place. Carrying a gun is a adult reponsibility.
The guy in the story should be charged with murder. He seems to have let his emotions get in the way of common sense. He forgot one major rule when defending yourself or others. Once the threat is stopped then you stop. Failure to do so makes you a murderer.

[JFootin]

And we'd all sure miss ya too.


I'd miss ya too! Course there may be a few more horses out there with their heads still attached that might have a different opinion. :)

Kissy-kissy! I think I'm gonna...:puke:

[jocko]

That's about what I woulda done too, except to add that I'd probably need to change my britches afterwards.

Ihave talkedabout this incidkent before andI just forgot this time tomention a change of cloths was certainly in order when I got home.

[GROTMAN]

Kissy-kissy! I think I'm gonna...:puke:
Just for that I'm posting all your texting codes :biggrin1:


ATD - At the Doctor's

BFF - Best Friends Funeral

BTW - Bring the Wheelchair

BYOT - Bring Your Own Teeth

CBM - Covered by Medicare

CUATSC - See You at the Senior Center

DWI - Driving While Incontinent



FWBB - Friend with Beta BlockersFWIW - Forgot Where I Was



FYI - Found Your Insulin

GGPBL - Gotta Go, Pacemaker Battery Low

GHA - Got Heartburn Again

HGBM - Had Good Bowel Movement

IMHO - Is My Hearing-Aid On?

LMDO - Laughing My Dentures Out



LOL - Living on Lipitor

LWO - Lawrence Welk's On

OMMR - On My Massage Recliner

OMSG - Oh My! Sorry, Gas

ROFL...CGU - Rolling on the Floor Laughing...Can't get Up!

TOT - Texting on Toilet



TTYL - Talk to You Louder

WAITT - Who Am I Talking To?

WTFA - Wet the Furniture Again

WTP - Where're the Prunes

[JFootin]

I'm ROFL...CGU!
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Smilies/laugh.gif

[Path4]

If you pull your weapon and point it at someone, you need to be 100% ready and willing to shoot and kill that person. I personally would not want to do that to defend property. Every situation will be different, but if I had reason to believe that it could end with noone being harmed or shot, I'd choose that outcome every time. Now if I have reason to fear for my (or someone else's) safety, that's a whole different ballgame. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

X2.

Killing someone over a cash register full of cash is wrong IMHO. There's no amount of money worth taking someone's life over. If someone was trying to rob me I wouldn't act unless i felt my life was threatened, though I'd draw my gun if someone unarmed approached me to steal my car (if they had a gun drawn on me of course i wouldn't draw, they have the upper hand) but wouldn't act unless they continued to advance on me.

As a scenario: Say i'm in a gas station, someone comes in and pulls a gun on the cashier. If they don't shoot them right away, theres probably a good chance they won't shoot, although id stay alert. But after they fire their first shot, I would try to stop them ASAP. Im still on the fence as to whether id pull my firearm out if i saw they had a gun, or wait to pull it until a shot was fired, because things could turn south if they saw i was armed.

Remember, as tempting as it is to stop scumbag derelicts from committing crimes, please don't have a freelance LEO mentality. Only act if you life is in danger, and maaaaybe act if someone elses life is in grave danger (though i would want to act if i saw someone being raped) and only pull that trigger if thats the only way to stop the threat. When it comes to protecting others i have to be somewhat selfish because of how frivolous lawsuits have become.

Grotman - That post is hilarious!

[muggsy]

years ago when closing up my business which included a gun shop . two blackguys came into my place, one had a pump mossberg and the other a wheel gun. this was back in the days when drugs was not really a big part of hold ups etc. I was no John Wayne, I was just ol jocko thinkng, to myself. do nuttin give them what they want, don't try to go for my 38 special in the drawer with 2 guns pointed at u. I wanted to get home for supper with my family. They had the drop on me big time. I could not have won the gun fight. I gave them what money I had in the drawer and they went away, never to be seen again.

Scared sh!tless was I at that time, but I felt I did the right thing. My family wanted their dad home for supper, not dead from stupidity. My thoughts today was if I had tried to pull a gun, then I left the two BG with no choice but to shoot me. Anutter reason why I would never open carry either. U have now taken the elimite of surprise from the BG. Just sayin.. the above was not a scenario either.. I think about it alot even today. Many times when I go into a restaurant I position myself to what I think is an advantage point, what ever in the fokk that may be even..

The problem being with today's criminals is that you hand over the money and they shoot you anyway. No one can say for sure what they will do in a SHTF scenario. Everyone likes to think that they would do the right thing, but until the situation materializes you won't find out. We all have both the fight and flight response within us. Before I pull, someone's life has to be in eminent danger.

[skiflydive]

The problem being with today's criminals is that you hand over the money and they shoot you anyway.

That's the problem in Kaliforniay with their 3 strikes law. Don't want to leave any witnesses hangin' around.

[340pd]

Deadly Force Criteria (MN statutes)

You must have or be a

1. A Reluctant Participant
2. Retreat is not possible or practical
3. Reasonable fear of Death or Great Bodily Harm
4. Lesser force will not stop the threat.

I never sit with my back to the front or rear door of a restaurant or place of business. My gun is in my pocket, with my hand on it in every area I consider a condition yellow.
Lock all car doors.
Family first, all others, maybe.
Lawyers phone number always with me.
I have to teach this stuff and I hope I am over paranoid and never need it.

Whatever you decide, make it a shooting not a gunfight.

[Path4]

(Reply to Jocko): The problem being with today's criminals is that you hand over the money and they shoot you anyway. No one can say for sure what they will do in a SHTF scenario. Everyone likes to think that they would do the right thing, but until the situation materializes you won't find out. We all have both the fight and flight response within us. Before I pull, someone's life has to be in eminent danger.

You probably think along these lines already, but only Bob Munden could stop the BGs when they already have guns drawn on you...but i've heard some people say they'd try to quick draw if someone was trying to hold them up...not realistically possible

[Bawanna]

I decided long long ago the quick draw just ain't gonna work. Where they say someones life has to be in eminent danger before they draw, I modify to say eminent danger before I aim.

I'm not opposed to having the gun in my hand if I think things are hinky. Maybe behind my back, maybe in a pocket but in my hand, not in the holster.

Of course usually these things happen so quickly that even that won't happen and then we're back to the quick draw scenario which is a lose lose situation.

[jocko]

You probably think along these lines already, but only Bob Munden could stop the BGs when they already have guns drawn on you...but i've heard some people say they'd try to quick draw if someone was trying to hold them up...not realistically possible

they call them dead store keeper:7: u know they say that when u die, ur body relaxes and u crap all over the place. not totally true. u don';t have to die to do that, 40+ years ago when I was armed robbed in my business, I did not die but oh my what a stinkin mess. Jusst sayin

[Tinman507]

well at least for once you weren't full of $hit

[les strat]

If I was in a place of business and someone came in shooting everybody to the left, and I am on the right, I am not waiting for him to turn right! I think in that situ, your life is in danger as well as everyone else's. I'm not waiting around to play quick draw McGraw when he turns at me.

Retreating is the safest thing, but it goes against my DNA to run away while others are suffering. It would be hard wither way... to live with yourself knowing that little girl and her mom might have had a chance had you double tapped the MFer in the head and stopped the threat. But again, are any of us good enough to compose a good shot in a adrenaline situ like that. I know what it feels like when a deer walks up. Imagine how shakey you'd be knowing you are about to start shooting and saying, "Hey BG, I am over here! Shoot this way!". I can say that when I drew on that ganster POS in Birminmgham (old thread from last year) that I had the calmness sent from God and could have done what it took had he attacked or pulled on me and my family. You never know.

Also, are we willing to go to jail for others lives saved that you do not know?

Again, a lot of what you deal with (or not) afterwards depends on the state and possibly city you are in. In Minnesota, yeah, I'd hold out the arms for cuffs. In some states, you may be honored for what you did. You better know your state!

[340pd]

Blessed are those who, in the face of death, focus on the front sight. - Col. Jeff Cooper

[Allen]

Wow, what a lot of food for thought you'all have come up with. I sometimes wonder what is the scariest, being unarmed in a serious condition or having your CCW and having to make the decision when or if to draw.

[Popeye]

Wow, what a lot of food for thought you'all have come up with. I sometimes wonder what is the scariest, being unarmed in a serious condition or having your CCW and having to make the decision when or if to draw.

No question about it, choosing to carry a gun is a serious matter. Hard to say on a computer keyboard what one should do. There are just to many senarios. I just keep thinking last resort. My and my families safety comes first, if that means drawing my gun and using it is the safest option then so be it. If it isn't then (like jocko's situation) it stays holstered. Like I mentioned my Penna. LTCF says SD. All other senarios I'm putting myself at risk of going to jail or being sued and loosing eveything I've worked for. Good intentions don't always work out so well, and they're is a lawyer behind every bullet.

[jocko]

Ok, enoujgh of this crapola. Here is the scenario. U decide

Ur in starbucks by urself drinking a "latte" and in walks Obumer, Pelosie and Reed and Biden. They are sittingup front andur to the rear but you can see all.
Two big bad guy m---fokkers come in with Tech 9 and also two Kel tek 9's. they start shooting at the el presidente.

Your armed with two kahr PM9 and two back up mags.

What do u do???

1. continue to drink your "latte" and pay no attention
2. call the police and give them a phony address on the other side of town.
3,Move ur chair so u can see all 4 up front take 50 rounds each.
4. Grab ur cell phone and video the scene.
5. Take anutter sip of "latte"
6.Go the the bathroom and take a dump, hoping the bad guys will be gone by then
7 take anutter sip of "latte".
8. think about the chick that you just shacked up with that evening before
9. ask for a refill of "latte"
10 check to see if all up front are now dead
11 If they are, best call the cops.
12 Finish the latte
13 walk next door and wait anutter 30 minutes for the cops to show up
14. Go to the motel right next to it and knock on the secret service agents doors and advise them the president might need their help and to get the galls outta there quick.
15 Offer the gals a ride home
Just sayin

[AC7880]

First # 6, then # 14 and offer the gals a free ride.


Ok, enoujgh of this crapola. Here is the scenario. U decide

Ur in starbucks by urself drinking a "latte" and in walks Obumer, Pelosie and Reed and Biden. They are sittingup front andur to the rear but you can see all.
Two big bad guy m---fokkers come in with Tech 9 and also two Kel tek 9's. they start shooting at the elpresidente.

Your armed with two kahr PM9 and two back up mags.

What do u do???

1. continue to drink your "latte" and pay no attention
2. call the police and give them a phony address on the other side of town.
3,Move ur chair so u can see all 4 up front take 50 rounds each.
4. Graab ur cell phone and video the scene.
5. Take anutter sip of "latte"
6.Go the the bathroom and take a dump, hoping the bad guys will be gone by then
7 take anutter sip of "latte".
8. think about the chick that you just shacked up withg that evening before
9. ask for a refill of "latte"
10 check to see if all up front are now dead
11 If they are, best call the cops.
12 Finish the latte
13 walk next door and wait anutter 30 minutes for the cops to show up
14. Go to the motel right next to it and knock on the secret service agents doors and advise them the president might need their help and to get the galls outta there quick.


Just sayin