start carrying 5.56/223

[knkali]

if the BGs are wearing BP vests what can you do? Go bigger on your carry gun?
http://news.yahoo.com/3-dead-including-gunman-oregon-mall-shooting-014507348.html

[chrish]

Crossbow?

The RIA .22 tcm or FN 5.7 are starting to look pretty good. Not as effective as a rifle, but as close as you are gonna get in something you can effectively carry on your person.

Best to just get REALLY freakin' good w/ your existing sidearm and place the shot(s) elsewhere.

2 to the body, 1 to the head will become increasingly ineffective if this continues.

On the flip-side of this, nobody (citizen) shot this guy, so who knows what would have happened. The dynamics change when the whack-job starts taking rounds.

[knkali]

The sig 556 SWAT is a nice addition. But I guess a rnd or two of .40 in the lower abdomen ball sack area would stop a guy too. BTW where are the CCW people in this mall?

[AC7880]

Practice head shots at the range. Hip shots too. Body armour is usually just the upper body.


if the BGs are wearing BP vests what can you do? Go bigger on your carry gun?
http://news.yahoo.com/3-dead-including-gunman-oregon-mall-shooting-014507348.html

[knkali]

Practice head shots at the range. Hip shots too. Body armour is usually just the upper body.


I hear you but under stress, I bet I miss the melon

[mr surveyor]

a well placed shot most anywhere in the femur (either or both), with an adequate round, would most likely take someone out of the fight, or at least slow them enough to be removed from the fight.

I don't know enough about Oregon to have a true informed opinion, but I've always been under the impression that Oregon, in general, is about a lib as kalifornia. I would also wonder how many, if any, concealed carriers would have been in that mall. For all I know, that mall may have been "offlimits" to legal carry.

[rholmes69]

Maybe it is like NC, no carry in ANY malls... per posting by the malls that is...

[mr surveyor]

I'm not even sure if the mall in the big town next to us is posted now.... I don't do malls.

[yqtszhj]

I have been thinking about an AR "pistol" if I could find one really cheap.

[Double3]

I'm pretty sure a .45 230 grain will knock someone on their ass.

[muggsy]

I value my life far more than I value the wishes of the people who post those no handgun signs. Just sayin.

[QuercusMax]

The RIA .22 tcm or FN 5.7 are starting to look pretty good.

Especially the latter.

It uses 20 round magazines in a gun that weighs exactly the same as a Kahr MK9, even if somewhat larger. Even in a handgun you get a projectile with over 2000 ft/s muzzle velocity, and there are even hotter rounds available. The 5.7mm (.224) bullet is virtually identical to the 5.56mm / .223 rifle bullet, but comes in a shorter round that fits in the FN Five-seveN pistol (and PS90 bullpup). Cartridge weight and recoil are much less than popular rounds such as 9mm or .45ACP.

This is the round and gun family that have been the specific subject of attempted bans because of the penetration ability they have at close range. :eek:

[knkali]

Does anyone ccw these guns?

[Bawanna]

Couple officers here have them. They were actually strongly considering adopting those as our duty weapons when we went from 40cal Beretta's to 45 cal Glocks.

They are a great gun but I did not support them for the dept. Too expensive, ammo incredibly hard to find and expensive when you can find it and really only the one ammo choice that makes it so good. All the other ammo that you can usually find isn't all that effective.

Nobody made a holster for the thing, not sure if anyone does now or not.

They chose Glock just because of available parts, accessories, holsters and such and even that was challenging. All kinds of stuff for 9 and 40 but a lot less for 45's. Getting better though.

A 20 round mag on a super hot cartridge would be a very cool thing if a few of the other downfalls were addressed.

[knkali]

seems like shoot through would be a big problem

[JustinN]

Another problem would be the cost...I'm not sure how much FN helps out PDs, but I'm guessing they would still cost double what the glocks run. I carried a 21 with a surefire x200 light, and had no problem finding a holster for it, and that was 7 years ago?

[Bawanna]

Yup that's what we issue now, the 21 with the light. Swat gets the X200, patrol gets an Insight Technology, cheaper light but they work well.

Holsters and stuff are much easier to come by now days. They insist on level III, have to hold your mouth right and get permission from grandma to draw the gun.

[QuercusMax]

seems like shoot through would be a big problem

Actually not.

Although the 5.7x28mm round has excellent initial penetration capability, it was designed to "tumble" shortly after impact. This has 2 benefits:
- Reduces over-penetration
- Gives it the characteristics of a HP round without actually having a hollow point (an important distinction for military use, since it originally was designed for NATO)

It also loses energy more quickly than larger rounds like 9mm and above, which means it won't carry as far as they do. That would be bad for a rifle round, but obviously is desirable for a handgun.

Due to its size, the Five-seveN is not an ideal weapon for concealed carry, thus I was not actually suggesting it for that use. (It's very close in size to a 1911 Government model or Beretta M9 or 92FS, which are typically too large to be carried concealed.)

But in response to the title of this thread, I think it's by far the best bet in a handgun. I know that I'm not going to start carrying my AR-15 or SCAR anytime soon - can't find any holsters to fit them. :D

[getsome]

Very cool pistol and ammo....They shot one last year on "Top Shot" TV show and the shooters all loved it due to almost no recoil....I looked up ammo for it at that time and it was like a buck a round but I guess it may have come down out of the stratosphere by now but I want to be able to feed my pistol from Wally Worlds supply or other locally available sources in case of SHTF.....

[Barth]

Getting body armor these days isn't that hard to do.
Sadly folks are likely to start pushing for restrictions on sales with their recent use in these high profile crimes.

Wearing one in the Costa Rican heat isn't happening.
But having one in the closet is comforting in the middle of the night.

Even with full body armor,
I'm thinking some 230 gr +P 45 rounds in the groin might not feel good.

Now I'm hearing that the Oregon shooting didn't really have body armor after all;
"The gunman was wearing a load-bearing vest --
a military-style vest that makes it easier to carry heavy equipment,
which many witnesses confused with a bulletproof vest --
and was armed with a semi-automatic rifle."

[JFootin]

... level III, have to hold your mouth right and get permission from grandma to draw the gun.

I always wanted to know the definition of level III retention. Thanks B! :D

[gilfo]

I don't see why vests should be made available to civilians anyway.

[mr surveyor]

he was not wearing a protective vest.... just like the camo thing, another knee jerk reactionary statement repeated by a willing media (as repeated from the general public that is generally ignorant in such issues).

And what's wrong with any person on the planet having a "vest"? I feel like my life is just as important as any other person on this planet that's still breathing good air.

sheesh:rolleyes:

[getsome]

What?????....Why not?....Whats the difference in a bullet proof vest and a seat belt in your car? They both work to prevent you from getting dead so whats the problem with that???????

[knkali]

What?????....Why not?....Whats the difference in a bullet proof vest and a seat belt in your car? They both work to prevent you from getting dead so whats the problem with that???????

The vest issue seems counter intuitive since a vest can only be defensive in nature. Nevertheless, they will be outlawed for average citizen purchace.

[bulletbm]

he was not wearing a protective vest.... just like the camo thing, another knee jerk reactionary statement repeated by a willing media (as repeated from the general public that is generally ignorant in such issues).

And what's wrong with any person on the planet having a "vest"? I feel like my life is just as important as any other person on this planet that's still breathing good air.

sheesh:rolleyes:

This is correct from a local news stations story.

"Deputies said Roberts stole the rifle used in the shooting from someone he knew. During the shooting rampage, he wore a hockey-style facemask, a load-bearing vest and carried several fully-loaded magazines."

There were also a lot of questions on if someone with a CCW shot him. I am not getting into this political crap people so love here, but there are a lot more people carrying in Oregon than most of you can imagine.

[knkali]

This is correct from a local news stations story.

"Deputies said Roberts stole the rifle used in the shooting from someone he knew. During the shooting rampage, he wore a hockey-style facemask, a load-bearing vest and carried several fully-loaded magazines."

There were also a lot of questions on if someone with a CCW shot him. I am not getting into this political crap people so love here, but there are a lot more people carrying in Oregon than most of you can imagine.

It is unfortunate that the political fallout from events such as this become very real when we have to deal with more restrictions and anti-gun sentiment. While you are certainly within your right to call political discussion "crap", and choose not to participate in political banter here, you will have to deal with it's effects on gun ownership eventually. I like to think of it as a venting system so that when the inevitable happens, I am preconditioned to it.

However, I am still perplexed why if there are so many ccws in OR, or else where, no permit holder tried to stop the carnage? I think that is a valid issue that we should collectively explore here on this forum. Certainly I realize it is easy to talk Rambo behind a nom de plum on a BB and very different mind set occurs when the bullets are whizzing by. Is it simply that? Is it self preservation? Do we as ccw permit holders have a greater responsibility to stop mass murder if we can since we have the tool to do so? From an anecdotal view it sure seems that there needs to be more "sheepdogs" out there.

[AC7880]

I don't see why vests should be made available to civilians anyway.

Why stop there? Why should ammunition be made available to civilians anyway? Why should guns be available to civilians anyway? Why should voting be available to civilians anyway? None of that is "necessary" for the lives of the peasants.

Heroin, meth, cocaine all illegal - yet people still can still acquire it. Felons "cannot" acquire a firearm - does that work? You think a law would stop people from acquiring bullet resistant vests if they really wanted one for a crime spree?

We need a law against any more laws - and a law to remove 25% of exisiting laws. And a law against ......... And a law for...... And and and a law that ......

[knkali]

Why stop there? Why should ammunition be made available to civilians anyway? Why should guns be available to civilians anyway? Why should voting be available to civilians anyway? None of that is "necessary" for the lives of the peasants.

Heroin, meth, cocaine all illegal - yet people still can still acquire it. Felons "cannot" acquire a firearm - does that work? You think a law would stop people from acquiring bullet resistant vests if they really wanted one for a crime spree?

We need a law against any more laws - and a law to remove 25% of exisiting laws. And a law against ......... And a law for...... And and and a law that ......

yep I feel your pain.

[mr surveyor]

the best "law" would be to return to a strict limitation on the use of the Commerce Clause. That would eliminate hundreds of thousands of pages of federal over reaching laws and restrictions, as well as many thousands of unnecessary federal "employees" and departments.

[Barth]

And what's wrong with any person on the planet having a "vest"? I feel like my life is just as important as any other person on this planet that's still breathing good air.

sheesh:rolleyes:

LOL,
I'm so tired of trying to get some folks to to see my point of view.
Even If they don't agree with it.
Seems like some people are unable, or more likely unwilling,
to accept an alternate opinion with an open mind?
Even basic common sense seems to go out the window.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
And give one attempt to clarify or explain a position - and that's it.

You can lead a horse to water...