PDA

View Full Version : Need some idea regarding shooter-induced feed jams



Scoundrel
12-17-2012, 01:10 AM
My dad is 72 years old.

A while back, I took him shooting. He fired all of my 9mm pistols, and most were tricky for him to hold onto because he has large hands. He liked the Ruger P95 best, which is also the largest pistol I owned at the time. He started getting pretty good with it. I gave it to him. That was about a year and a half ago.

We haven't gone shooting much in the time since then, but on a "recent" outing, he had a few feed jams. I bought all new springs for the pistol and the magazines, and we took it apart and replaced everything. We didn't get a chance to take it shooting to test it though.

Well, today we went to the range, and he was getting feed jams every two or three rounds, and it wasn't locking back on an empty magazine.

I swapped guns with him, and he fired my PPQ without any failures in about 50 rounds.
I fired the P95 and did not experience any failures at all in about 50 rounds. Same ammo, same magazines. Different shooter.

He took the P95 back, and it got to the point where just about every round, or every other one would jam.

We tried changing his grip several different ways.
I had him try pushing forward with his gun hand while holding it back with the other hand.
We tried it with his elbows locked, and then we tried holding it closer to his chest.
No matter what he did, the problem kept happening.

At one point, after firing several rounds from a magazine and having every single one jam, he put the pistol down and said it was a piece of junk.
I picked it up off the bench and finished out the magazine (about 10 more rounds) with no failures.

His thumbs are not touching the slide. The P95 has a nice big frame and it keeps the thumbs off of the slide nicely.

I could see the pistol jumping in his hand, and it was not just a bit of muzzle flip. It looked like it was going to jump right out of his hand.

I asked him to grasp my hand with his and squeeze hard, and try to bend my wrist. His grip and arm strength is not what it once was, but he didn't feel weak either. I didn't try it the other way, where I would have him resist me trying to bend his wrist. I don't want to hurt his wrist or his ego any more than necessary.

So now I'm just not sure what to do.

He's got a set of those hand-held squeeze springy things that are supposed to build up hand and arm strength from when he messed up his left wrist (not the shooting hand) a couple years back, and he said he's going to start using it again, and we'll try again in another month and see where he's at.

We talked about selling the P95 and getting him a revolver, but he's not keen on only having 6 shots.

We talked about swapping it out for a MK III pistol, but he wants a gun for for home defense as well as target shooting.

He can't really afford a PPQ, and while that seems to work pretty well for him, I don't think he can justify the purchase to his wife.

I thought about trying some hotter rounds in it, but if it's a weak grip, I don't want the thing jumping out of his hands, and if he's flinching, I don't know if hotter rounds are a good way to go, they might reinforce the problem.

I considered (too late) handing him a cocked but empty pistol (without him knowing) so I could watch what he's doing when it doesn't go bang, but we had already left the range when it occurred to me.

So my question to you guys is, how should I handle this?
Is there any way to avoid a serious blow to the ego if we can't get him to stop limp-wristing it?

Anyone have suggestions on what else we could try?

Barth
12-17-2012, 05:25 AM
My dad is 72 years old.

A while back, I took him shooting. He fired all of my 9mm pistols, and most were tricky for him to hold onto because he has large hands. He liked the Ruger P95 best, which is also the largest pistol I owned at the time. He started getting pretty good with it. I gave it to him. That was about a year and a half ago.

We haven't gone shooting much in the time since then, but on a "recent" outing, he had a few feed jams. I bought all new springs for the pistol and the magazines, and we took it apart and replaced everything. We didn't get a chance to take it shooting to test it though.

Well, today we went to the range, and he was getting feed jams every two or three rounds, and it wasn't locking back on an empty magazine.

I swapped guns with him, and he fired my PPQ without any failures in about 50 rounds.
I fired the P95 and did not experience any failures at all in about 50 rounds. Same ammo, same magazines. Different shooter.

He took the P95 back, and it got to the point where just about every round, or every other one would jam.

We tried changing his grip several different ways.
I had him try pushing forward with his gun hand while holding it back with the other hand.
We tried it with his elbows locked, and then we tried holding it closer to his chest.
No matter what he did, the problem kept happening.

At one point, after firing several rounds from a magazine and having every single one jam, he put the pistol down and said it was a piece of junk.
I picked it up off the bench and finished out the magazine (about 10 more rounds) with no failures.

His thumbs are not touching the slide. The P95 has a nice big frame and it keeps the thumbs off of the slide nicely.

I could see the pistol jumping in his hand, and it was not just a bit of muzzle flip. It looked like it was going to jump right out of his hand.

I asked him to grasp my hand with his and squeeze hard, and try to bend my wrist. His grip and arm strength is not what it once was, but he didn't feel weak either. I didn't try it the other way, where I would have him resist me trying to bend his wrist. I don't want to hurt his wrist or his ego any more than necessary.

So now I'm just not sure what to do.

He's got a set of those hand-held squeeze springy things that are supposed to build up hand and arm strength from when he messed up his left wrist (not the shooting hand) a couple years back, and he said he's going to start using it again, and we'll try again in another month and see where he's at.

We talked about selling the P95 and getting him a revolver, but he's not keen on only having 6 shots.

We talked about swapping it out for a MK III pistol, but he wants a gun for for home defense as well as target shooting.

He can't really afford a PPQ, and while that seems to work pretty well for him, I don't think he can justify the purchase to his wife.

I thought about trying some hotter rounds in it, but if it's a weak grip, I don't want the thing jumping out of his hands, and if he's flinching, I don't know if hotter rounds are a good way to go, they might reinforce the problem.

I considered (too late) handing him a cocked but empty pistol (without him knowing) so I could watch what he's doing when it doesn't go bang, but we had already left the range when it occurred to me.

So my question to you guys is, how should I handle this?
Is there any way to avoid a serious blow to the ego if we can't get him to stop limp-wristing it?

Anyone have suggestions on what else we could try?

I'm dyslexic so there's no freaking way I can read a post this long.
Can't you ask a simple question with one or two sentences?
Then have the long explanation I can skip.

Anyway.
I always recommend a steel DAO revolver for just about everyone.
Particularly if you're inexperienced.
And unwilling or unable to train regularly with your weapon.

Revolvers don't need to break in.
Will feed any self defense ammo.
Practically can't FTF/FTE.
Don't hardly need lubrication.
And only require draw, aim, squeeze to operate (KISS).

Happy Holidays and stay safe.

Popeye
12-17-2012, 05:59 AM
I think in his case a medium sized revolver just might be the ticket. Maybe something in a .38. JMHO.

muggsy
12-17-2012, 07:27 AM
At 72 your dad may be losing strength. He may be limp wristing the semi-auto. This can be accentuated if he a locking his elbows when shooting. If he allows his elbows to bend a bit the recoil will be more straight back rather than up and back, and it may cure the problem. If not, go with the revolver.

MW surveyor
12-17-2012, 09:10 AM
Hate to chime in on a revolver too, but they do make 7 and 8 shot revolvers if it is a number of rounds that he is balking at.

SD976
12-17-2012, 09:45 AM
Obviously he is limp-wristing it. My mother also wanted to have a semi auto, but her hand strength did not allow her to rack the slide, and therefore would be unable to mnage and misfeed drills. We ended up getting her a .357 snubbie revolver.

TheTman
12-17-2012, 10:33 AM
You might try a 1911, they don't seem to be as susceptable to limp wristing, and you can get 8+1 mags for it.

Bawanna
12-17-2012, 11:27 AM
Excellent idea Tinman. I'd see if you could find an LDA Para. A little more forgiveness in the trigger if he's not used to the platform but still very nice.

Other than that I'd prefer 5 or 6 good 38's over an auto that balks every shot.

Scoundrel
12-17-2012, 11:46 AM
It does really sound as if a revolver will be best.
If he's been working the hand grips for a month and still has a problem, I'll try and get him interested in one.

In the meantime, got any suggestions for decent ones in the $400 range?

Barth
12-17-2012, 11:48 AM
It does really sound as if a revolver will be best.
If he's been working the hand grips for a month and still has a problem, I'll try and get him interested in one.

In the meantime, got any suggestions for decent ones in the $400 range?

S&W 642 No Lock Stainless 38 +P
http://www.humanevents.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/sW-620x465.jpg

DeaconKC
12-17-2012, 08:02 PM
No on the J frame, great guns, but if he is already having problems, go with a K frame that will fire .38 specials. Put Pachmayr or Hogue rubber grips on it, and he will love it. Model 65s are .357 magnums with fixed sights, stainless and will gobble up .38 like nobody's business. They are very reasonably priced too. If not get a 64, that's the stainless .38 version of it.

Barth
12-17-2012, 08:09 PM
No on the J frame, great guns, but if he is already having problems, go with a K frame that will fire .38 specials. Put Pachmayr or Hogue rubber grips on it, and he will love it. Model 65s are .357 magnums with fixed sights, stainless and will gobble up .38 like nobody's business. They are very reasonably priced too. If not get a 64, that's the stainless .38 version of it.

My 3" heavy barrel Military and Police M65-3 357 is pure sweetness.
And my favorite S&W revolver.
But good luck getting one for around $400.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo36/c0/c9/0209b2046852__1338736921000.jpeg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false

7shot
12-17-2012, 09:09 PM
You might try a 1911, they don't seem to be as susceptable to limp wristing, and you can get 8+1 mags for it.

I don't believe this to be true, the 1911 is very susceptible to limp wristing! I say go with the revolver.

DeaconKC
12-18-2012, 07:48 PM
Barth, you have one of my favorite guns! The 3" has the full length ejector rod and is a great shooter. The 4" ones are quite a bit more reasonable.

les strat
12-18-2012, 09:04 PM
Glock 17 is the answer. Still 9mm, but VERY controlable and large enought for his hands.

Too bad they will only come with 10-round mags instead of 17 soon.

Scoundrel
12-20-2012, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I'm going to suggest swapping him my Taurus Judge for the P95.
I'll use the P95 for the nightstand gun, or maybe eventually get myself another Judge.

I never shot the Judge much because the ammo is expensive, so it would probably have just collected dust anyway.

The 2-1/2" 4 pellet 000 Buck seems to be out of stock most places right now, but the good news is I bought a bunch of it a while back, so I can keep him supplied for now until the craziness dies down.