8 round nose dive theory CM9 PM9

[Harrylee]

Seems like every one has a theory on why the kahr 8round 9mm magazines nose dive. I have read about the follower mod makes alittle sense to me but still I believe there is more going on here. A lot of guys with cm9s seem to have this problem. I have a cm9, did have this problem in the beginning but has gone away after about 500 rounds. Now I have between 500-600 more rounds thru 8 round mag seems to be fine. I never noticed this in my 1911 so I just started looking at both mags and what I realized is when you look at the 45acp mag from front you only see about 1 ½ rounds showing. Then my friend showed up asked him to bring his lc9 with him, looked at that mag from front and could only see 1 round from front. My idea is if you look a the pictures on the 45, as cartridge comes out of magazine if bullet drops some it is deflected by the front of magazine so it can not drop. If you look at lc9 same thing when you look at kahr you see 2 rounds exposed so now as slide strips top round it hits the top of cartridge as it goes forward the nose is driven down. There is nothing on the front of the magazine to stop a dive. If anyone else would like to pitch in please do so, but I believe that kahr could have taken a lesson from John Browning. Here are some pictures with this sorry some are a little out of blurry I don’t have a hi end camera

[wyntrout]

We've noticed this low cutout in the front requires a pretty long skirt on the followers, precluding the use of most .45 followers from other manufacturers. This low opening allows the remaining rounds to be pulled forward as the top round is chambered, where they are easily tipped over as they are picked up later by the "stripper"/breech face of the slide, usually resulting in a "dive" where the nose hits the far right side of the feed ramp and hangs, jamming the pistol.

The 9mm rounds seem to be the most affected, with several other contributing factors. I've had to tweak a 9mm mag's feed lips minutely to the left to keep it from jamming the bullet noses against the right side of the feed ramp every time! I used pliers and tried to bend both lips a tiny bit at the very front... the pliers slipped off with no perceptible change, but then the rounds started feeding a little more to the left into the ramp.
The magazines could benefit from improved design... lessening or raising that front opening and a new follower/spring design combination using a metal follower, magazine-tube-filling springs, and redesigned feed lips. All of this COULD result in one more round capacity with most magazines... which would be great!

Wynn:)

[jocko]

it could also be designed that way due to kahrs patented offset feed ramp. It realy works OK on 98%of all kahrs.We readof it here as this is a kahr forum and we are gonna hear and see allkinds of things TO AKE A KAHR BETTER.

Some mods work great for that particular gun and owner.

[wyntrout]

There have been a lot of issues with splits or cracking in the upper rear corners of the .45 Kahr magazines, too. My PM45 and its mags are on the way back to the mothership again, for that problem, though not as catastrophic as with the original frame. Kahr did some serious testing of the original and only frame replacement stopped it from destroying magazines... quickly... and jamming up the pistol. This one is seemingly a lot slower, but 4 out of 7 mags are on their way... and who knows about the others.

Five trips back and I don't know how many times each part was replaced on the first four! But I think the only original part is possibly the slide lock... and that only because I returned two SS slide locks that Kahr sent me along with the spring, screw and washer. My pistol is DLC and the spring set corrected that particular problem.

I know it will get TLC, but I hope that it's still an all-aspect shooter... that I'm able to really loosely hold it and have to REALLY try hard to "limp-wrist" it enough to cause FTF's! Between trips 2 and 4 it had problems and would probably "sense" limp-wristing in a machine rest and malfunction!

I may get to break in Boomer for the 5th or 6th time!

Wynn:D

[kcs1]

For what its worth, I had an early (one of the first made) K9's that would NEVER feed hollow points no matter what I did or tried. It ran 100% with full metal jacket round nose but any and all hollow points would nose dive jam on the third, fourth and sometimes fifth round. The second would feed then jams would start and continue up to the fifth or sixth round. Polished feed ramp and chamber, new mag followers/tubes/springs, recoil springs/guide rods (courtesy of KAHR, thank you) and the gun would not run with hollow points. Had to be a lemon is all I can think.

[jocko]

u have paid ur dues well wyn.reminds me of the 17 times I had to send my 3 kelteks back for serious sh!t.

[kcs1]

Bought a P 40 a couple of years later and had good luck until about round 250 when the recoil spring rode up over the flanged end (yes, it was installed properly). Bought a MK9 that worked great for about 350 rounds until the recoil spring separated at the plastic plunger in the nose. KAHR was good about replacing the parts in a very professional manner but I was very hesitant to buy another product (Glocks just worked too good). I recently found myself in a position to purchase a pair of KAHR products at a EXTREMELY good price point - a CM 9 & a CM40 at the same time. Could not pass it up. Figured if they were POS's I could sell them on GB and still come out OK. Result is I am VERY pleased! I followed all of the postings on your forum regarding pre-firing prep. and am happy to say that both have been 100% from the first round fired! Think I may very well be in the camp of satisfied KAHR customers/users. They are really very well suited for everyday CCW.

[wyntrout]

Well, good for you! Some of us have to work hard to get our Kahrs reliable, but I think it has been worth the trouble. The size is great and the trigger so smooth. I'm really hooked on them and I can't stop buying them!

Welcome to the forum. it's great to hear from someone who's had good experiences with our favorite brand of pistol here... well, some of us, anyhow!

Wynn:D

[JFootin]

Welcome to the forum, kcs1! :) There is a wealth of valuable information in the New Member Area (http://kahrtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=56) and the Kahr-Tech (http://kahrtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27) sections of the forum.

And welcome to the CM9 Owners Club! :D Our official symbol is the wide grin smily because we are so happy with our purchase that we can't wipe the smiles off our faces!

Here is your club badge.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Smilies/BigSmily.jpg

[jimsea]

....... There is nothing on the front of the magazine to stop a dive. If anyone else would like to pitch in please do......

The mag tube does nothing to deflect rounds to the ramp. What does help deflect rounds to the ramp is a "properly" supported round under the round that is about to be stripped.

The problem is, Kahr uses generic followers that are not specifically fit for or designed for specific ammunition case profiles. I have the 9 and the 40 which stack significantly different from each other in a single stack application, however Kahr supplies the same shaped follower for both. Both of the supplied followers have to be modified to provide proper support to rounds higher in the stack which ultimately support the round to be stripped and prevents the stripped round from nose diving.

The follower for the 9 requires much more aggressive modification than the 40. About 25 min of work on the 9 and 15 on the 40 follower.

I might a do a video later. My wife accidentally deleted my other vids that were posted here.

[jimsea]

Here are some pics and a short video taken today that show an original follower on the left and a modified follower next to it on the right......9mm (2pics) .40 (2 pics). Pic number one is also a good illustration of the flair peculiar to 9mm ammo in the mag tube and why extra sanding is required to help compensate for it.

The last pic is of an unmodified/stock Wilson Combat follower which shows essentially the form/support you get with a properly designed follower. This is what you are creating when you sand the original Kahr follower. You are adapting it to support the ammo caliber so you don't beat your gun to death, break followers, or crack mag tubes.

Here is today's vid: http://youtu.be/AXPzeQSaVog

It is a shame Kahr uses a generic follower that requires a slide stop release to chamber a round (pg 16 of manual). Tactically speaking this curtails the ability to execute the tap, rack, bang method of clearing a malfunction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJaQvV6q-D8

[MW surveyor]

"It is a shame Kahr uses a generic follower that requires a slide stop release to chamber a round. Tactically speaking this curtails the ability to execute the tap, rack, bang method of clearing a malfunction."

It isn't the follower that requires a slide stop release to chamber a round. It is people that do not pull back and release the slide cleanly or ride the slide especially when these guns are new.

My CW9 is sufficiently broke in and I can load or do the tap, rack, bang drill without problem.

[jimsea]

.....pg 16 of the instruction manual.

Riding (or even a proper release) is a non issue from day one with a properly designed follower.