View Full Version : purchase advise needed...
Okay boys n girls....
I've got $650 rapped up into a Keltek KSG... for two years. I was 12 on the list, now I'm 10. Ouch.
So dealer is very accommodating... I can spend the $650 on something else if I like.
Here's the rub - if I stick with the KSG, its mine for $650, eventually. Dealer said a deals a deal, he said they'd be $650 from KelTek, and thats that. He don't scalp... wont raise price, even if his price goes higher.
On the other hand....
I've been Jonesing for a FNX45... he can get 'em, but... due to circumstances, its a very dear price... scalpers price. $850, while "list" is $809. Before things hit the fan they were sub $700.
I also know - from a little bird - that Ruger will be nixing the Bearcat revolver, and I've wanted one for a bit. Those are $450ish.
What to do. Chances are the FN will not be available in the future, and neither will the Bearcat.
Another possible is an LCR in 357... or... perhaps ... I dunno... some Beretta 22 (they make a medium frame one thats pretty nice).
Thoughts folks?
Barth
01-10-2013, 09:27 PM
http://www.topgunsupply.com/h-k-p2000sk-.40-da-sa-night-sights.html
Brand new Heckler & Koch P2000SK chambered in .40S&W, DA/SA V3 trigger with decocker, fixed sights and two 9 round magazines.
IN STOCK
Price $829.95
These guns will accept 12 round P2000 and 13 round P30 mags.
http://cdn.topgunsupply.com/images/D/IMGP1920.JPGhttp://cdn.topgunsupply.com/skin1/images/logo.gif
chrish
01-10-2013, 11:59 PM
Personally, if I was going upwards of $850 on something, I'd be into Sig range and looking at the P220...but that FNX45 is the way I'd go out of the choices, and I don't even jones over .45s.
jeez. 15 rounds of .45 in a 33oz gun. What's that gotta freakin' weigh!
Barth
01-11-2013, 06:05 AM
Personally, if I was going upwards of $850 on something, I'd be into Sig range and looking at the P220...but that FNX45 is the way I'd go out of the choices, and I don't even jones over .45s.
jeez. 15 rounds of .45 in a 33oz gun. What's that gotta freakin' weigh!
My HK45C cost me $999.
She weights ~29 oz empty and ~36 oz loaded.
Good luck trying to find one though.
I have a Sig P220 as well.
It's a fine pistol for sure.
But I would take the HK over it without question.
ripley16
01-11-2013, 08:25 AM
Just my opinion, but I think this is a bad time to buy a gun. The hysteria will die down in a while and prices will return to normal. I'd say wait, (maybe the Keltec will magically appear), use the time to shop, fondle and investigate which gun you'd like to substitute for it. Prices will return to some form of normal later in the year.
Already have a SIG P220... Great pistol. Eight plus one.
FNs huge...but i got Kahrs for small, and seven 1911s. Just a fourtyfive sorta guy....
Barth
01-11-2013, 09:01 AM
Already have a SIG P220... Great pistol. Eight plus one.
FNs huge...but i got Kahrs for small, and seven 1911s. Just a fourtyfive sorta guy....
Of my fourteen handguns the HK45C is my favorite.
They are hard to find and expensive.
But totally worth the effort and cost.
Get one if you can...
Barth
01-11-2013, 09:10 AM
One more option if you don't mind waiting;
http://gunsandtactics.com/hk45-tactical-model-new-for-2013#
http://gunsandtactics.com/wp-content/themes/PrestigeLight/thumb.php?src=http://gunsandtactics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/hk-pistols-full.jpg&w=600&h=561&zc=1
JFootin
01-11-2013, 09:46 AM
One more option if you don't mind waiting;
http://gunsandtactics.com/hk45-tactical-model-new-for-2013#
That looks thin in the grip. Is it single stack?
gb6491
01-11-2013, 11:15 AM
... or... perhaps ... I dunno... some Beretta 22 (they make a medium frame one thats pretty nice).
Thoughts folks?
I have a Beretta 87. It's a little pricey for a plinker (very reliable and very accurate, but the trigger holds it back some). It's magazines are also pricey. I've never regretted purchasing it:).
http://i49.tinypic.com/v46rts.jpg
Photo really doesn't do it justice.
Regards,
Greg
Barth
01-11-2013, 02:24 PM
That looks thin in the grip. Is it single stack?
That's an interesting question - LOL.
HK uses a semi double stack, like 1.5.
The grip feels like a single stack though. It's very narrow.
Grip-to-slide angle matches Model 1911’s profile.
When you hold the gun - it's hard to believe it holds 10 rounds.
To me, the HK45 and P30 grip feels very much like your Walther PPQ.
ORSalesRep
01-11-2013, 06:12 PM
Sorry, but I don't think they will honor your $650.00 price. Not because they have poor intentions, but simply because they won't be able to do so.
This just posted by Kel-Tec on FB.
Kel-Tec
KSG price increase due to proposed PUMP-SHOTGUN ban!
"Pump-action shotguns, like many law-abiding citizens use for duck hunting and self-protection were not expected to be part of the upcoming Assault Weapon ban proposal. Kel-Tec has been made aware that the KSG is going to be one of the Pump-action shotguns included in the upcoming Congressional Assault Weapon ban bill. The KSG is Kel-Tec’s first pump shotgun and large amounts of resources were put towards its development and production. The distributor price of the KSG has been increased due to this likely ban. If the threat of a ban is removed, the price will come back down to normal levels.
We are sorry for the inconvenience this will certainly cause. Please contact your Federal representatives and tell them you do not support banning ANY pump-action shotguns, or other firearms."
Who knows what the increase will be, but with current market paying $2800.00-$3000.00 and you being 10 onthe list, they would just lose too much money selling 10 KSGs at $650.00 when their distributor could be charging them $2500.00+.
More likely than that though is that if there is a ban, by the time you would normal move up to the 1st position in the queue, they will be banned and you won't be able to buy one anyways.
Barth
01-11-2013, 06:22 PM
This just posted by Kel-Tec on FB.
Kel-Tec
KSG price increase due to proposed PUMP-SHOTGUN ban!
"Pump-action shotguns, like many law-abiding citizens use for duck hunting and self-protection were not expected to be part of the upcoming Assault Weapon ban proposal. Kel-Tec has been made aware that the KSG is going to be one of the Pump-action shotguns included in the upcoming Congressional Assault Weapon ban bill. The KSG is Kel-Tec’s first pump shotgun and large amounts of resources were put towards its development and production. The distributor price of the KSG has been increased due to this likely ban. If the threat of a ban is removed, the price will come back down to normal levels.
We are sorry for the inconvenience this will certainly cause. Please contact your Federal representatives and tell them you do not support banning ANY pump-action shotguns, or other firearms."
Who knows what the increase will be, but with current market paying $2800.00-$3000.00 and you being 10 onthe list, they would just lose too much money selling 10 KSGs at $650.00 when their distributor could be charging them $2500.00+.
More likely than that though is that if there is a ban, by the time you would normal move up to the 1st position in the queue, they will be banned and you won't be able to buy one anyways.
I've got $650 rapped up into a Keltek KSG... for two years. I was 12 on the list, now I'm 10. Ouch.
So dealer is very accommodating... I can spend the $650 on something else if I like.
Here's the rub - if I stick with the KSG, its mine for $650, eventually. Dealer said a deals a deal, he said they'd be $650 from KelTek, and thats that. He don't scalp... wont raise price, even if his price goes higher.
On the other hand....
I've been Jonesing for a FNX45... he can get 'em, but... due to circumstances, its a very dear price... scalpers price. $850, while "list" is $809. Before things hit the fan they were sub $700.
I also know - from a little bird - that Ruger will be nixing the Bearcat revolver, and I've wanted one for a bit. Those are $450ish.
What to do. Chances are the FN will not be available in the future, and neither will the Bearcat.
Another possible is an LCR in 357... or... perhaps ... I dunno... some Beretta 22 (they make a medium frame one thats pretty nice).
Thoughts folks?
Sorry, but I don't think they will honor your $650.00 price. Not because they have poor intentions, but simply because they won't be able to do so.[/QUOTE]
+1
I think all bets are off on back ordered firearms.
Unfortunately,
I fear Obummer will use his State of the Union address in a few weeks
to announce the use of an Emperor Order on gun control.
http://silverunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/american-flag-swastika.jpg
The man will honor the price. He is a man of integrity and his word is gold. He has had 35 units on order direct with Keltek since introduction, and prepaid a deposit on the order to KelTek. The ban may stop it...if a ban becomes reality. Till then....price is golden too.
Rotorflyr
01-11-2013, 11:59 PM
I'd keep the $ on the KSG for now, if a ban comes by exec order it'll happen soon enough and you'll have time to put the money elsewhere.
If it comes down the road by congressional decree, you'll have a chance of getting it in your hands prior, and if not, you'll still be able to move the $ elsewhere.
I've got $650 rapped up into a Keltek KSG... for two years. I was 12 on the list, now I'm 10. Ouch.
You moved-up two spots in two years. Your dealer averaged one KSG per year, for the last two years.
At that rate, it will take 10 years before your number comes up. How long are you willing to tie-up your money?
You don't really believe availability will improve with the current buying hysteria, do you?
I think that Kel Tek will only make as many as they can.... and that FIFO applies.
forestranger
01-12-2013, 09:22 AM
Don't know about all them autos or KT but might not be bad time to get Bearcat?:o
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1892/fa005s.jpg
JFootin
01-12-2013, 09:42 AM
I contacted Kel-Tek about poor availability of the Sub 2000 Carbine about a year ago. They said they were maxed out and couldn't even fit any more employees in their current facility. They said they are looking at a larger facility, but haven't decided when or if, yet.
It seems like most of the firearms manufacturers are not keeping up with the current demand, and you might wonder why they don't expand. But I think they are justifiably cautious about doing so because economic, political and/or legal factors are likely to pour water on that fire, and they would then be stuck with an overly large and expensive operation that would make it harder to survive lean times. So, they keep it lean and are content to enjoy the profits from maxed out production at current levels, knowing that there will be lean times in the future that they want to be able to ride out.
jeepster09
01-12-2013, 10:35 AM
You moved-up two spots in two years. Your dealer averaged one KSG per year, for the last two years.
At that rate, it will take 10 years before your number comes up. How long are you willing to tie-up your money?
You don't really believe availability will improve with the current buying hysteria, do you?
I think they only actually started making them last spring or early summer. Typical Shot Show stuff make a few and build the interest before actually making them. I usually like to wait awhile and let the bugs get worked out before buying. I would get my money back and get something else. As an example look at how much of a flop the Kel Tec 22 magnum pistol PMR30 has been.....there has been a lot of failures with that experiment. Unreliable and may blow up in your hand...:confused:
Rufus
01-12-2013, 10:44 AM
If what you have is $650 and you are looking for a 45 cal., then you may want to consider an STI Spartan V. The last time I checked, Dawson Precision had them in stock for $635. STI stand behind their guns for the life of the gun, no matter whether you are the first owner or the tenth owner. I have two STIs, one Trojan in 45 cal. and one Spartan V in 9mm. Both are highly accurate and run without flaws.
http://www.stiguns.com
http://www.dawsonprecision.com
Nope, I've got enough 1911's. Three govy's, a commander, a 4inch Springfield, an Occifers, and a dedicated .22 target 1911.
Got two Kahr .45's
Got a nice P220 first series "American" that is nicer than the P220 stuff they put out today by a longshot.
Have had, and gotten rid of, three Ruger P90's, which were "ok", but... not my cup of tea. Have also had a HK P9s, which when working, was the best 45 I ever had. Three frames later... and HK finally gave me a cash refund on it. They had a weak spot with the miniscule screws that held the double action lockwork to the stamped metal frame - which was very thin. The screws literally pulled out of the thin metal - not enough thread to hold 'em.
So... a high capacity 45 is something I desire. DA/SA seems nice. I don't like Glock, will not shoot one. That leaves the various high capacity 1911 types, or, something like the FN.
I might go for the FN, see if he can actually get one... they're scarce as hell right now.
A CZ might also be nice, they make a double stack .45 in stainless... hmmm.
MW surveyor
01-12-2013, 05:57 PM
I can't tell you about the CZs in 45 but my 9 mm Phantom (yeah, I know, it's "plastic") is my most accurate 9 mm and a joy to shoot. Plus it holds 19 rounds :)
DeaconKC
01-12-2013, 06:21 PM
The 3rd generation Glocks in either 10mm or .45 are butt ugly, but boy they do work.
ORSalesRep
01-13-2013, 08:21 AM
The man will honor the price. He is a man of integrity and his word is gold. He has had 35 units on order direct with Keltek since introduction, and prepaid a deposit on the order to KelTek. The ban may stop it...if a ban becomes reality. Till then....price is golden too.
I am not questioning his integrity. I am sure he has great intentions, but no independent business owner is going to risk his business's finacial solvency by losing $2000.00+ on ten plus sales transactions. Remember that you are number 10 in line. There are probably people after you as well, but even if you are the last one in line, he would stand to lose over $20,000.00 on you and the 9 people in front of you. Average markup by a brick and mortar gun shop is $50.00 - $75.00 on a firearm of that price due to the lower internet prices with less overhead. Unless he is independently wealthy, I think you are being unrealistic that he will honor that price. He just won't be able to do so once his distributors raise his costs. Just saying....
ORSalesRep
01-13-2013, 08:30 AM
I think they only actually started making them last spring or early summer. Typical Shot Show stuff make a few and build the interest before actually making them. I usually like to wait awhile and let the bugs get worked out before buying. I would get my money back and get something else. As an example look at how much of a flop the Kel Tec 22 magnum pistol PMR30 has been.....there has been a lot of failures with that experiment. Unreliable and may blow up in your hand...:confused:
Not true. I got mine in January. I also heard from the shop who sold me mine that the KSG is on allocation and that the amount of units shipped to each location is dependent on how much money they spend on Kel-Tec product. My LSG spends a lot on KT product and since I purchased the first one they received in January 2012, they have only received 2 others.
Been told distributor price went up $150 from KelTek, thats it. Anything else is at the distributor level.
My man is not a shop, but a small time ammo maker, who also deals in arms, and has direct with KelTek purchasing. IOW, he gets them at distributor pricing - mostly due to his close proximity to KT's operation. We'll see whats what on those. He told me - he'd still be ok with the price, no problem... its just a matter of availability.
Armybrat
01-13-2013, 09:51 AM
Just buy a nice SS Ruger GP100 .357 and have enough left to put 100 rounds downrange with it.
Wheelguns are still abundant, and another hogleg isn't to be sneezed at.
More on the KT increase.... their major market is not civilian, but LE. They have been filling LE orders first, with only minor releases to civilian market use.
I'll get the exact particulars, but they have not raised the MSRP on the gun - still at $880, just increased the distributor pricing into $600+ dollar range from the 450+ dollar range.
JFootin
01-13-2013, 01:52 PM
The CZ 97B is drop dead gorgeous! A big gun. Do you have big hands? This is a 1024 x 768 picture that can serve as a Windows background. Load it on your computer and it won't be long until you get one of these beauties! :)
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Miscellanious%20Guns%20and%20Holsters/CZ97B45ACP.jpg
ORSalesRep
01-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Been told distributor price went up $150 from KelTek, thats it. Anything else is at the distributor level.
My man is not a shop, but a small time ammo maker, who also deals in arms, and has direct with KelTek purchasing. IOW, he gets them at distributor pricing - mostly due to his close proximity to KT's operation. We'll see whats what on those. He told me - he'd still be ok with the price, no problem... its just a matter of availability.
Okay. $150.00 isn't bad at all. I applaud Kel-Tec for being reasonable in lieu of the prices that the market is dictating. Good luck. I will say this, if you decide to wait it out for the KSG, you will love it once you get yours.
Rotorflyr
01-14-2013, 11:56 PM
A CZ might also be nice, they make a double stack .45 in stainless... hmmm.
If you're looking at double stack .45's, STI makes a bunch of them.
Though they aren't cheap they are worth considering
Well folks, here's what I did.... there are reasons I wont go into that drove this decision.
But, I will say - THANK YOU! - all, for all your support.
The FN's are gone... and there is no back order date forecast. Could be never.
So, I went into "Plan B" mode.
Let me say, "Plan A" was to get a high capacity 45. Ten or eleven rounds... would not do, as I already have 9 rounds in the 1911's and SIG. It needed to be 15+1 as in the FN. But, that is not doable right now.
So, Plan B was to get into something that is soon to be discontinued.
I've jones'd for a Ruger Bearcat for a long while. Turns out, as diminutive .22LR single action revolvers, they're not in high demand - which is good - because they also are not in high production. They're a great little revolver.
I snagged two of those little critters, in stainless steel.
My Plan B is to convert one to .22mag and leave the other "as is". Both will get stainless ejector rod housings and thats all.
So, one in .22LR, one in .22WMRF..... the to hell with the KSG. The latter for reasons I can't go into, but....
I think I'll keep the 870 Express that I snagged. I've two 870 riot guns, so the 870 express may be for "experimental use"... we'll see.
ptoemmes
01-16-2013, 08:07 AM
CJB just in case you need to get a little closer to one of your 870s these fine Kentucky Gentleman may have the ticket: http://www.bullpupunlimited.com
I see they are out of stock. Been thinking of one myself. No clue if it's a good kit or not.
Anyone know?
Pete
thanks I'll look into that. I have a slightly different plans for the 870. not quite as outrageous as a Remington 1740 double barrel 12 gauge pump shotgun that I devised in the 1990s.... but close.
JustinN
01-16-2013, 01:52 PM
I am finding myself in the same boat as CJB....I just sold my AR (pending the funds) for a small ($1k) PROFIT.....so I now have some extra money to get something else. I have a list of things I want...like a 1911, a Glock 20, an HK USP .45 (never forgave myself for selling my old one - I sold it to a friend and he still has it..so it haunts me even more), a Sig 226 Equinox, etc....
So, all over the board, all different calibers, all different uses. I Loved my old Glock 20c almost as much as HK, and I'd like to feel the Glock 20 SF to see if that slimmer grip feels nice. Anyone else have any suggestions, knowing the vein I'm looking at here....
MikeyKahr
01-16-2013, 02:14 PM
Congrats on the profit, JustinN! Lots of options. My vote would be 1911 with Bawanna grips. He needs some work and to be hip deep in sawdust to keep politics off his mind. You can trade him a Sphygmomanometer for the grips, he will need it before we're through.
Barth
01-16-2013, 02:24 PM
I am finding myself in the same boat as CJB....I just sold my AR (pending the funds) for a small ($1k) PROFIT.....so I now have some extra money to get something else. I have a list of things I want...like a 1911, a Glock 20, an HK USP .45 (never forgave myself for selling my old one - I sold it to a friend and he still has it..so it haunts me even more), a Sig 226 Equinox, etc....
So, all over the board, all different calibers, all different uses. I Loved my old Glock 20c almost as much as HK, and I'd like to feel the Glock 20 SF to see if that slimmer grip feels nice. Anyone else have any suggestions, knowing the vein I'm looking at here....
I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing me rant on and on about my HK45C.
And even though it is a little pricey at ~$1K.
The Light LEM 45 ACP is easily my favorite handgun.
It's crisp 3.9 lbs DAO trigger, HK recoil reduction and o-ring accurized barrel
make for a sum greater than the parts pistol.
Even my cherished classic Sig Sauer P220 SRT 45,
with a tuned trigger and after market match barrel,
pales in comparison.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo38/06/92/3e22f40926bc__1351450345000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=falsehttps://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo62/c8/ad/d298b2cf3fe4__1354945277000.jpeg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false
JustinN
01-16-2013, 02:43 PM
A 1911 is definitely heavy on my mind....especially knowing what Bawanna could turn out for it. Another nice thing is if I don't spend TOO much, I could possibly get a couple of guns out of the deal.
The HK is high up on the list, I just wish they didn't cost so much. A question on Sig...I've owned a couple of P220s, I could never hit anything with them...I shot them just awful, and always got hit in the face with brass. It's the thing that makes me hesitate on the 226. I tell myself it would be better because I love the way the gun looks, especially the Equinox treatment....but in the end will I be just as bad with it as I was the 220?
I could also go for a tax stamp/can for quiet fun with the right gun....
MikeyKahr
01-16-2013, 02:56 PM
1911 + tax stamp would be a great way to go for $1K. The way revenue will be needed, I could see the cost of the tax stamp going up.
Barth
01-16-2013, 04:14 PM
A 1911 is definitely heavy on my mind....especially knowing what Bawanna could turn out for it. Another nice thing is if I don't spend TOO much, I could possibly get a couple of guns out of the deal.
The HK is high up on the list, I just wish they didn't cost so much. A question on Sig...I've owned a couple of P220s, I could never hit anything with them...I shot them just awful, and always got hit in the face with brass. It's the thing that makes me hesitate on the 226. I tell myself it would be better because I love the way the gun looks, especially the Equinox treatment....but in the end will I be just as bad with it as I was the 220?
I could also go for a tax stamp/can for quiet fun with the right gun....
I don't have a P226.
But the size, shape and ergonomics of a P220 and P226 are much alike.
If you don't like one? I doubt very much you would like the other.
My way of thinking on the cost of a HK?
Quality guns last a lifetime.
And when you look at the total cost of ownership.
Including holsters, mags, sights, range time and ammo.
This initial cost of purchase really isn't that much.
Keep in mind that they've revised the P220 to a new "slim grip" configuration. Not sure when they went to that from the older configuration (which was really the Gen-2 grip style).
I was able to convert my Gen-1 grip to the Slim Grip, but not because I wanted to. I wanted to get to the rebounding rounded hammer. That meant I needed to change the hammer block, add the spring, change the mainspring, strut and retainer for the mainspring.... and the grip, just to get to use the newer hammer. I do like the newer grip better than the older more boxy grip. Could shoot ok with the older one, but the newer one is better on re-acquisition of the sights on target.
JustinN
01-16-2013, 10:00 PM
The ones I had we're most likely the older grip.
if you have the rounded hammer, the internal parts are there to accomodate the tthinner grips
JustinN
01-17-2013, 04:52 PM
I think right now I may lean towards a Desert Eagle 1911 and a possibly an HK....but do I want it in .45 or .40 (or 9mm).... The 1911 will be .45, I've never owned a .40, and have 9mm....So should I stick with a caliber I have or go with something new?
I will possibly also pick up a glock...I could do it in .40, though I really miss my 10mm.
Tinman507
01-17-2013, 05:41 PM
anyone smell sumthin burnin?
http://rookery2.viary.com/storagev12/772000/772239_fc90_625x1000.jpg
JustinN
01-17-2013, 05:43 PM
Guns Tinman!!!! GUNS!
And hey, if I have the money I better get what I want now, before I can't get them anymore.....
jocko
01-17-2013, 06:41 PM
Have faithmy friend, I reqally think obummers gun sh!t will never get past the house for sure and be damn lucky if it gets by tyhe senate. I do predict a 10 round mag concession n both sides but I think the assuatl black looking guns will prevail. When the set the criteria for an assualt weapon as one wth a pistol grip then surley these politicians have tosee it is all bull sh!2t and nuttin more.
Bawanna
01-17-2013, 06:52 PM
They didn't see it in 94 and Piers Moron doesn't see it today. Nothings changed. It's for the children even if they look like Obummers son if he had one which thank goodness he don't since he'd be next in line to be King, which is probably why Piers Moron loves him so much.
NRA says it has the votes not not let any of it pass... we'll see
jocko
01-17-2013, 07:06 PM
hope ur right cjb and I hope the nut cases ot there who are planning some sh
1t keep their guns locked up until after this is over with..
jocko
01-17-2013, 07:09 PM
well 4 more Americans killed in that BPoil refinery shootout. Where was obumer on this???Oh thats right, prancing those dam kids out to the podium while he gavehis anti gun talk. He missed having a child towel head in that group though, kindadissappointed me. and di du notice that ol pervewrt Joe Biden hit on that little girl even.
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