CW9 & Kahr Service Complaint

[mr.72]

I have had my CW9 for just about a year.

From day 1 it has had issues. First it was an occasional light strike, about 1-3 rounds out of a box of 100, and nearly every time the mag would drop in the middle of the magazine sometime and cause the slide to fail to lock open when it was empty. Kahr sent me a new mag release and spring to fix it (myself) the first time, fixed the mag drop but not the light strikes.

Light strikes eventually got to where it was 75% of the time at around the 300 round count (just past break-in!) and I sent it back to Kahr to be fixed. New barrel and magazine follower and it returned to the original condition: light strikes 1-3 per box of 100.

So I contacted them to fix this and they sent a FedEx pickup, but didn't bother to prepay it! What's the deal with scheduling a pickup but not paying for it?

I am about 99.99% done with Kahr. My gun has been defective from day one, they had it back at the factory with every opportunity to fix it right, and now I am going to have to complain and set up another pickup to get them to pay for the shipping. For the price of the gun plus the amount of ammo and range fees it has taken to test their various "fixes" and the shipping costs to get it fixed, I could have bought a reliable gun to begin with. Never mind the cost of the backup gun I bought since I wind up sending the Kahr back to Massachusetts for weeks at a time a couple of times a year.

My "cheap junk" S&W Sigma cost >$100 less, came with FOUR magazines, and has never had one single solitary failure of any kind. Ditto that my Ruger LCP. Kahr is supposedly a premium brand. Come on, guys!

[WMD]

Wow! If kahr put a call tag in and the guy came to pick up your gun, you should not have been billed. Chances are the carrier (Fedex?) probably billed you AND Kahr. You should vcall Kahr and let them know what happened.

I have had great luck with Kahr service. I wouldn't give up on them yet.

[mr.72]

I didn't let FedEx take the package. No tag, no pickup.

[Raoul]

Everybody makes a bad gun.

[Diocoles]

CW9 for 2 years. No single failure to fire or stovepipe.
Put 400 rounds through for break in and not a single problem since. You might have a lemon.

[mr.72]

I agree, I have a lemon. What does it take to get Kahr to make it right? They are about to lose a customer forever.

[Joe from N.Y.]

see this thread:

http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/133-anybody-else-here-p380-2.html#post1218

[mr.72]

see this thread:

http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/133-anybody-else-here-p380-2.html#post1218

I have a similar story, including writing them a detailed letter along with my first warranty return.

Unfortunately I got the gun back without all of the problems fixed. So it's going back again. They say that they have scheduled a pickup for today including the airbill. We'll see if they can get it right this time.

[500KV]

Seems to me that, after all the substantiated problems you have had, they should just pony-up and send you a new gun.

That was a great letter Joe sent them, very good pieces of logic, and better yet it worked.

Good luck 72, they're really great little guns.

[mr.72]

Yeah I really REALLY like the gun when it's working, but unfortunately I don't trust it to work 100% of the time.

I have flatly requested a new gun. I agree, they should just give me a new one. Last thing they should want is a defective gun kicking around. They will eat up their entire production cost in shipping charges alone in short order if they keep bouncing this one back and forth.

[Nitro700]

Just a thought, I have bought a couple of other brand guns (high priced and good quality:rolleyes:) and had trouble with feeding ammo and extractor probelms. I now think what has happened is that these manufacturers have rushed to chatch up with the demand for guns; and quality and attention to detail has suffered. When I called the manufacturer about the gun they said "It needs an extended extractor" and I said "Well if you know this is the problem why has there not been a recall; alot of people use this as a carry gun" and I never got an answer they just said " Sir would you like to return the gun":eek:; so I sold my guns after they were returned from factory just could not bring my self to carry a gun that had let me down even though the manufacturer had fixed and said it was good to go. I have a Kahr K9 Elite (best gun I have owned) and I am buying a P45 in the next couple of days hope it is a good quality gun.

[jocko]

NITRO 700 ur so right in ur comments. They all can give issues, don't care who makes um. Spend $2 grand buy a dandy gun and you still get issues. Just the nature of the beast. Kahrs are no different either. They can giv eissues. Many can be solved in house without sending them back iI-F a person would come on board and ask and explain in a nice fashion. Many little things I know for a fact have been solved on other forums just by asking. Come on any forum with a ***** on and you will get no where. CW series kahrs are super gun, their best sellers by far but some will get a lemon. sad but true.

[kpm9]

I did get on P9 that was terrible at first and sent it back. Kahr did a great job if fixing it up. I think I purchased it back in 2000/01.

I've bought three since, another P9, PM9 and a PM45. Only the PM45 has had a smidgin of break-in issues. 1 FT feed, 1 slide lock and 2 mags dropping. With 350 rounds down the pipe, the last 100 or so have been perfect and it runs like greased snot on a door knob now. Slickened right up

Point being, sometimes a mechanical device needs to be worked slightly. I've seen it happen with HK's, SIGs, Springfields, Colts, Berettas etc etc.

[jocko]

Most car mfg-ers don't recommend a new buyer to go out and drive it like he stole it. Rings have to mate with the cylinders and alittle tlc will help out on the consurmers part. Same way with guns. We all want them to work perfect out of the box and most all guns do that but some do need that extra TLC. I never get to excited about any good gun with possable issue until I get over 200 rounds down range..

[mr.72]

I never get to excited about any good gun with possable issue until I get over 200 rounds down range..

I agree, but the bulk of my problems occurred only after 350+ rounds.

The original day-1 problems didn't change at all during break-in. They stayed exactly the same. So I think at some point you just have to consider maybe the gun is a lemon.

[mr.72]

The gun came back yesterday. They replaced the barrel and slide. I think this will improve the chances that it's "really fixed" by a large margin. Heading out to the range this weekend to break it in again.

[laker1]

I had the same problem of light strikes with a P45. Sent it back in and they placed a new striker and slide spring in. It still did the same thing but I was using reloads. I tried factory ammo of several kinds and they fed without flaw. Some of the reloads were causing the ammo to not fully seat in the chamber, thus you get a light strike. Give yopur barrel a very good cleaning and try factory ammo. When I reload correctly to factory specs, reloads feed fine. Kahrs are tight chambers.

[mr.72]

I have never used anything in it but factory ammo. No reloads ever. I had shot about 200-300 rounds of Winchester White Box 115gr, 50+ rounds of Federal BPLE +P 124gr (never any failure with the Fed), and probably 50ish rounds of Blazer (no failures). I originally suspected that the Winchester primers were harder than the Federals (CCI uses Federal primers, right?). But when the failure rate went to like 70% it became a moot point.

If the rain holds off I'll be out testing it tomorrow.

[mr.72]

77 rounds of WWB in a row without any hint of any problem. about a third of the way to "broken in" again.

[Cappy]

I hope they handle this issue for you. Seems like all the right efforts have been made on your part.

[steve459]

ive had my cw9 for about 8 months now. no problems of any kind. feeds everything i load in the mag.

[O'Dell]

I have never used anything in it but factory ammo. No reloads ever. I had shot about 200-300 rounds of Winchester White Box 115gr, 50+ rounds of Federal BPLE +P 124gr (never any failure with the Fed), and probably 50ish rounds of Blazer (no failures). I originally suspected that the Winchester primers were harder than the Federals (CCI uses Federal primers, right?). But when the failure rate went to like 70% it became a moot point.

If the rain holds off I'll be out testing it tomorrow.

I have two pistols that will not shoot WWB. One has failure to feed on every other round. The other a FT feed about every other mag. They will both shoot anything else including HP's and defense rounds. BTW, my Kahr is not one of them - 225 flawless rounds so far using WWB and GA Arms HP's. I measured the WWB and they are slightly longer than other FMJ's, so maybe that's the problem.

I plan to use my 300 rounds of WWB in my Kahr, Sigs, and Brownings, which will all shoot it, and never buy any more.

[mr.72]

Well I did make it out to the range, shot 77 rounds of WWB with no problems. Need to go out and shoot it some more, but finding the time has not been easy. I shoot WWB in my other guns with no problems. I have about 700 rounds of it kicking around so I am not anxious to quit shooting it.

[mr surveyor]

mr. 72

I've been following your dilema for...weeks...months? You have had a real hassle obviously, and I think you have handled the "emotional side" very well (speaking to your posts on the "other boards"). Since I bought a CW9 in July after having shot a buddy's CW40 a few times, I started following all the reports of problems. Seems like most of them have been pertaining to the PM9and posted numerous times by the same 3-4 "unhappy campers" across the spectrum of the internet. There are all too many gun enthusiasts that expect 100% reliability right out of the box and end up with break-in issues and make every nasty comment possible. I think you have been an exception in your "quest" to make your pistol work. I hope you will keep the updates coming as I would like to think the problems have been remedied. For what it's worth, I finally reached the 500 round mark in my CW9 this past weekend. I've shot a real mixed bag of ammo, and had 6 females (ages 14-55) shoot at least a magazine each, as well as males (ages 15-60) shooting at least as many rounds, and not a single problem. I fully expected some FTE problems from the ladies limpwristing...none.

I hope your need for CS is over and you enjoy the reliability I have seen thus far, and I hope I don't repeat your experiences in the near future.

surv

[mr.72]

Thanks, surv. As you know, I really like this pistol. So I am willing to stick it out. In fact, I would quite happily buy another one just like it, or a P9, with no qualms whatsoever. But I do think Kahr could have gotten this right the first time and I think this idea of trying to repair guns with these quirky, hard-to-find problems is a fool's errand. I think it would be cheaper and result in happier customers overall if they'd just replace the whole gun right off the bat.

[mr surveyor]

mr. 72

I can't disagree with that. I have had a few KelTec pistols, of which a couple had to go back the the mother ship....one 3 trips before it was right.. another only one trip, and an new gun with my original SN stamped was returned. I also have many other maker's guns in my collection (Kimber, S&W, Beretta, Sig, Ruger....) and am aware that any of these can have problems. Buying the KT's, I knew up front the possibilities, but wanted the attributes in their particular offerings. I fought the temptation to buy my first Kahr for several years... all the while knowing they had to be very good quality, and offered a higher quality product in the compact handguns I was searching for. I'm not quite ready to trade my Kimber Stainless Compact, or Sig P239 for an MK9, but after my experiences thus far with the CW9 I may consider a second mortgage to get a MK9, T9, PM9......


surv

[jocko]

mr. 72

I can't disagree with that. I have had a few KelTec pistols, of which a couple had to go back the the mother ship....one 3 trips before it was right.. another only one trip, and an new gun with my original SN stamped was returned. I also have many other maker's guns in my collection (Kimber, S&W, Beretta, Sig, Ruger....) and am aware that any of these can have problems. Buying the KT's, I knew up front the possibilities, but wanted the attributes in their particular offerings. I fought the temptation to buy my first Kahr for several years... all the while knowing they had to be very good quality, and offered a higher quality product in the compact handguns I was searching for. I'm not quite ready to trade my Kimber Stainless Compact, or Sig P239 for an MK9, but after my experiences thus far with the CW9 I may consider a second mortgage to get a MK9, T9, PM9....


surv


my 3 kel tecs back 17 times before I could get them reliable enough to sell. Lemons come in all sizes and brands.

[paul0660]

What bugs me is that Kahr seems to replace parts willy nilly when you send a pistol back to them, and it does not always fix the problem. I had something similar to Mr. 72's experience with a CW9, and although Kahrs service was excellent, paying freight both ways twice with quick turnaround, it still wasn't a pistol I wanted to depend on. I have a K9 now that is a thing of beauty and reliable. Someday I will find a MK40 to pocket carry, but I won't buy another plastic Kahr.

[mr surveyor]

I have learned one thing in the past 5-6 years of buying tupperware.... the small, concealable varieties can, and will be finiky. By their very nature, they are designed to be on the very cutting edge of technology...considering the power to weight ratio. Sub-compact models from any manufacturer are subject to fail.... some of us get lucky with one....some don't. Personally, I prefer metal firearms, knowing the normal drawbacks of the polymer offerings, but the CW9 just kept calling my name. I have high hopes for my friend mr.72 getting his CW9 conditioned to the necessary state of reliability for daily carry. And, the statement about "part changers" is verey true. Those of us over 50 probebly remember when "technicians" could diagnose a problem and make actual repairs rather than do a text book recommended component/part change. Life goes on.

surv

[johnh]

I don't know how many times the original poster has dealt with various gun makers for service, but I can testify that the level of service Kahr provides and did provide him is far beyond normal for the industry. Very few makers will send the end customer parts to replace on their own. Doing so opens up the possibility for mistakes during the install and even damage to the firearm, with the customer then blaming the maker for not installing them at the factory. Shipping is normally paid by Kahr, so I would strongly suggest calling and asking about that Fedex issue. When guns come back to Kahr I know for a fact they are test fired extensively. If the ammo type used is different it might not demonstrate the specific issue the customer has. There is no easy way around that given the high cost of ammunition. I know of one rifle maker that has struggled with that for a couple years now as they want to test their guns with the ammo customers typically use. To replace an entire sub-group of components is also far from typical. Many manufacturers would tweak the existing parts and leave it to the customer to test fire thoroughly. Again that would raise the difference in ammo used issue. Kahr provided a repair/replacement that had the best odds of fixing that gun so that it would work for the end user. Replacing entire firearms is beyond what I feel vendors should be expected to do as long as another solution is likely to work. It sounds like the parts swap did in this case.

John

[mr.72]

Actually, I have no affirmative indication that the parts swap has fixed anything at all. I have fired 77 rounds through the gun, which went back to Kahr due to a light-strikes issue that occurred about 2-5 times in 100 rounds. So it would require many hundreds of rounds even to tell whether this light strikes issue was resolved.

And while I agree that this level of service is excellent from the perspective of just one problem, the fact that ANY gun requires THREE RMAs before it gets fixed correctly is just impossible to defend. No matter how good the service is, any product you buy, upon which you are expected to depend your life, that requires service for catastrophic failure THREE TIMES before it is fixed can only be described as a total failure of quality control, plain and simple.

I have two other handguns from two different manufacturers and NEITHER of them has had a single failure of any kind since new. I have no idea how above and beyond the Smith & Wesson service is because in 1K+ rounds my el-cheapo Sigma 9mm has not had one single solitary failure. Ditto that for Ruger. Not to mention these guns cost $100+ less than my "budget" CW9.

The reason I suggested that replacing the entire gun would be a good idea is because it makes common sense given the data that I have personally collected and the general vibe among gun owners about Kahr's quality reputation.

- Kahr has a bad reputation currently for the quality of their polymer pistols
- Kahr has some known failure rate related to light strikes and magazine drops in CW9 pistols, and barrel peening in PM9s, which are feeding this bad quality reputation
- However many guns come back for RMAs due to the known common issues, there are two choices. Either replace the whole gun and wind up with a nearly guaranteed fix for the customer and a happy customer, or swap some parts and hope that it fixes it. The second option has a very poor track record of success.

So the real solution is for Kahr to stop producing so many CW9s with light primer strikes and magazine drop issues. In the meantime, they are suffering a huge reputation black eye that is worsening because it appears that it almost always takes multiple returns to the factory to fix these problems.

Quite frankly, I think when you register the pistol for warranty, Kahr should send you a note that says "with some ammunition and under some circumstances, your pistol may experience light primer strikes. If this proves to be the case, please contact Kahr customer service and we will promptly replace the pistol". Period. Ditto that for magazine drops. It may take 300-500 rounds for the customer to discover this problem so Kahr can't very well be expected to find it on test-firing a couple of rounds out of a manufactured gun, so until they find the ironclad engineering solution they need to do something to rehabilitate their image.

This is my opinion, and as I stated before, I like my Kahr pistol and will likely buy more of them. I make these suggestions because I think they are clearly the best thing for Kahr and will result in a better quality image and increased sales.

[frtyfivsevnty]

I've been looking at a CW40 for a new carry gun.After seeing all these posts I think I'll pass.I have never had a single issue with my E9,so I guess that will stay on my side.They do seem to have excellent customer service,but the best warranty is the one you don't have to use.

[johnatw]

I have a CW40 and have had no problems after 1000+ rounds fired, except it did not like the East TN brand reloaded ammo.

[mr.72]

FWIW, now I'm at the 140 round mark (I know, not very many) and it has performed flawlessly. I did find a burr on the left edge of the feed ramp when cleaning on Saturday, just like the first barrel had after the first day at the range over a year ago. I ground off the little burr with a fine-grit stone just like before.