Replacement for .45 acp Colt Lwt. Officer Model?

[KCAutoBob]

It pains me to even think about this question, but I recently have discovered that the .45 acp Colt Lwt. Officer's Model which I've carried off-duty for about the last 12 years is not an allowable carry option for me anymore because of a dept. rule which forbids modification (exceptions being sights and grips) of a weapon carried off-duty and concealed. Mine has some modifications which are not allowed. I'm afraid of the legal consequences if I ever had to use it. So, now I'm faced with the question- what for a replacement of an old friend? I recent bought a PM9; ran several hundred rounds thru it and have fallen in love with it. I especially like the trigger pull. I'm new to it, but I'm addicted already. So, now I'm thinking about the Kahr P45. It's got the same length barrel, less weight (O.M. weighs 2 lbs. loaded) smaller overall, and only gives up 1 round capacity. And basically a good improvement in concealability. Then there's the PT45 which has a 4" barrel (like my other 1911, but even lighter with a 4" tube.
The two main things I'm concerned about are (#1) reliability, and (#2) concealment (and weight). I'd like to hear your opinions and comments as to these two pistols. Are the triggers like the PM9? Both the same? Different? Reliability? Oh, and what about the CW45? Is it as good a bargain as some claim, or do you get what you pay for? Are the P45 and PT45 a real step up in quality?
I think I'd really like another Kahr, you know, to keep it in the same trigger design and feel. I know there's other quality guns out there, but I'm here first and this is a very good forum. I need help with this. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[CJB]

Pm45

[KCAutoBob]

CJB, my own past experience with 3" .45's has left me with distinct mistrust of very short-barreled .45 like Kimber or SA micros. I've got a Kimber, and although it shoots accurately, reliability scores low. I don't carry it. Have you any comment about that problem with the PM45?

[OldLincoln]

I'd lean toward replacing a great gun with something that shoots smoothly as your Colt does and carries as well too. You may be right on with the PT45 if you can hide the grip. It doesn't look any larger than my Commander but I don't know about the Officer model.

[CJB]

CJB, my own past experience with 3" .45's has left me with distinct mistrust of very short-barreled .45 like Kimber or SA micros. I've got a Kimber, and although it shoots accurately, reliability scores low. I don't carry it. Have you any comment about that problem with the PM45?

Couple of things to think on -
First off the 1911 was never designed to be a 3.5" pistol, and the Kahr was. I built an Officers 3.75" .45 before Colt had theirs ready to market, thanks to the late Irving Stone who did up some "test barrels" for Colt's. That gun, and the three or four Officer's length have been ok for me. The problem comes when you go shorter than that on the 1911, as there begin to be ejection and pickup problems. They reduce the overlap in the feeding, and cartridge rise in the magazine becomes super critical. Integral ramps help to a degree in the 1911. Kahr - all of their 45s - have minimal overlap but seem to cycle that way just fine. The PM does suffer from unfired long ammo getting caught in the port, just like the Colt, but to a lesser extent because of the way the Kahr locks up into the port instead of with top lugs on the barrel in the 1911.

Second - my own two PM45's have been nearly faultless. I had one that bobbled a few times, bought new, but smoothed out with just a little shooting. It then chewed a frame rail up front (the slight was not quite right). Kahr replaced frame and slide, and most internals, and the pistol has been 100 percent upon return. The used one I bought - which is really my daily carry, every day, all day, except when sleeping - has been 100 percent fully, zero issues. The PM9 also used - zero issues. I carry them in my front pocket, and have stopped by the range to fire a few at times even after front pocket carry (lint, dust, etc). No problem, just shoot and try and hit the target (old eyes). I can do a silhouette just fine, but them little fuzzy bullseyes are a pain. Fortunately BG's are not little fuzzy bullseyes.

Lots of folks here have zero issues with short PM45s. But... a few... not many... do. There are, I think, some guns/shooters that just dont work well together. Not to scare ya off... but, I think thats the case. I'm rather "recoil proof" from years of shooting everything under the sun, with 12 years of my life enjoyed playing at a very busy range/ammo maker/gunsmith shop, so... I'm fully biased. Consider that too.

Best of luck!

[jocko]

PM45,the best way to go,

[JohnR]

Why not a Colt Defender?

[Short Bus]

I would say CW45 and if you need the extra round you could get a 7 RD mag for it

[yqtszhj]

PM ow CW 45. The trigger is long buy very smooth and my CW45 is very reliable. Smooth shooter too.

[Dirt doc]

I am also partial to the 45 acp. I have a kimber ultra carry that I love to shoot and a PM45 that I also love to shoot. i am able to shoot both equally well and both have proven reliable. However the Pm45 is more comfortable to carry. If the PM45 round capacity concerns you go with the P45 or CW45. The one thing I don't like about the Kahr 45's is the magazine base plates. They are not flush like the PM9 and sometimes the spare pokes me in the side.

[muggsy]

I'd be interested in knowing what modifications were done to your officers model and why they aren't allowed by the department? If you are going to replace it I'd stick with another Colt. It's better to stay with that which you are familiar is a SHTF situation.

[gb6491]

FWIW, here's a CW45 and Colt OACP side by side:
http://i49.tinypic.com/jsewj9.jpg
They're about the same thickness in the slide. The CW is thinner through the grip and lighter overall.
Regards,
Greg

[GUNGHO58]

I have owned a several Colt's, Kimber, Wilson and 3 Les Baers. Well built guns and very reliable and accurate, and I shoot them aften. But I like the safety of a double action for carry purposes because of the long trigger pull.
I switched from a Glock 23 and 27 once I saw the Kahr 45 line. I now own and carrry either the PM45 in an Alessi ankle holster or the Kahr P45 in a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2 or a Mitch Rosen belt holster.
I have shot them regularly and take them to some steel plate matches in the area. Since owning them at least 5 or 6 members of my shooting club have bought the same models. I am very satisfied with both that I have, and if you have any issues with them, Kahr does a good job of standing behind them.

Hope that helps.

God bless America and our troops....U.S.M.C.
.
.:80:

[scattershot]

I'm not sure I would look at the CW.45. I bought one, and I'm having reliability issues. I'm about to get them worked out, but in your case, I'd keep the Colt and restore it to stock.

[Bawanna]

If the Colt needs a good home, I'm available and could probably come up with most of the shipping cost.


Wheeeew, I beat Greg! YES!!!!!!!

[gb6491]

Now that's a very generous and thoughtful offer KCAutoBob, you might want to think pretty hard on that one. Space is precious. :D
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

What's the word I'm searching for.......Toucheeeee!

[Raulf]

I own a Kimber Tactical Ultra II, no problems at all. CM9 is going out the door with me as much as the Kimber.:D

[KCAutoBob]

Muggsy, take a look at the picture gb6491 provided for us. What I see is an Officer's Model for a right-hander. I'm left-handed. That CW45 will work for me, the Colt O.M. won't without an ambi-safety; that's modification#1. Also both my original steel-framed and my current Lwt. Officer's Model had the same weakness-the recoil spring plug tab broke and there's modification #2, to correct that problem. (By the way, I work for CA CDCR.)
CJB- you noted that 1911's weren't designed for a very short barrel--i.e., the .45 acp micro's.
Right! My experience with my Kimber Ultra Ten II and my conversations with a good (now retired) gunsmith about this matter support that idea.

Now, has kahr managed to design the PM45 to successfully overcome the problem of taming the recoil from the .45 acp inside of 3.25"?

Money talks to me and says 'buy the CW45 'cause it's affordable' (and the barrel's 3.64"). But the voices keeping talking about the P45 black or the PM45 black, retrofitted with an X-S Big Dot sight system. I like that black profile better than the stainless.
But all you guys are immensely helpful with your inputs- no b.s. Good guns, good forum. I want to know what, and why.... :nerd:

[O'Dell]

I have eleven 45 pistols ranging from a CW45 through Springfield, S&W 3rd Gens, SIG's, HK's, up to a Kimber and STI. If I can't cover a belt holster, I drop a PM9 in my pocket. If I'm wearing an untucked shirt or jacket, there's a 45 on my belt. About 75% of the time it's the CW45. It's the lightest and the most comfortable to carry. I've had two of them and both have been 100%.

BTW, I had a PM45 but it was stolen. It never gave a problem either, and will be replaced with a CM45 as soon as they're released. It will partially replace the PM9 as a pocket carry when possible.

[KCAutoBob]

Thinking more and more strongly about the P45, so earlier today I thought, "Gee, maybe I could ask the horse?" So I sent off an email to the service dept. at Kahr, nicely worded, asking, in their opinion, which .45acp Kahr pistol they thought to be the most reliable. I told them I was replacing a Lwt. Colt Officers Model. So now I'm frustrated 'cause I gotta wait at least til Monday for any response. Very curious to see the answer I get. You know, straight from the horse's mouth... :rolleyes: duh.

[Bawanna]

I think if your prefer black the P is a good choice. The size is right in there with your officers model, and you get black and can get the big dot sights. I love those too. Have them on my PM45

You pay for the black, the extra mag, and the dovetailed sights but you get what you really want.

[JFootin]

I think if your prefer black the P is a good choice. The size is right in there with your officers model, and you get black and can get the big dot sights. I love those too. Have them on my PM45

You pay for the black, the extra mag, and the dovetailed sights but you get what you really want.

Those are some wise words right there! :yo:

[KCAutoBob]

Originally Posted by Bawanna http://kahrtalk.com/images/tigra/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=215974#post215974)
I think if your prefer black the P is a good choice. The size is right in there with your officers model, and you get black and can get the big dot sights. I love those too. Have them on my PM45

You pay for the black, the extra mag, and the dovetailed sights but you get what you really want.


Those are some wise words right there! :yo:
Got a response from Jay Dandrea in Kahr Customer Service :
"Good morning. Thank you for the questions. All of our firearms are designed to be reliable (italics added) and I would not hesitate to purchase and carry any of them. The Tp45 is the closest firearm that we make in size to an officers 1911. You will find it much lighter and comfortable to carry than the previous firearm. I hope this information helps."
I was sorta expecting that kind of reply, but what else could he say? So, with that in mind, either the P45 (3.54" barrel) or the PM45 (3.24" barrel), but I think I might talk myself into buying an extra 1/4" for $50 less and perhaps get a smidgen more reliability in the bargain. I still think a 1/4" longer recoil spring arrangement might mean a little bit extra reliability, regardless of Jay's 'opinion'. Bawanna's words are wise, :yo: and they reflect what I think I'd like to end up with for a major caliber carry piece- the P45 Black & X-S big Dot. I've found a lot of positive sentiment regarding the X-S Big Dot sights. Good thoughts!

By the way, how does the 7 rd. .45 ACP mag w/grip extension work? Okay- or not worth it?

[KCAutoBob]

A week and a half later, I'm still looking, but I keep coming back to the PM45. I notice that some seasoned shooters seem to prefer it, and hey, it just has a certain appeal to me. Now, just gotta save up my clams....

[TheTman]

I had a CW45, and right off the bat, it had a trigger reset problem, that Kahr took care of, and had it back to me in 7 days. After that it was very reliable, except when trying to use the extended 7 round mags, and those just did not work with my gun. It WAS my main carry piece, but I ended up selling it, to finance another purchase that was just too good to pass up. I was going to buy another CW45, until I heard about the CM45 coming out, and am waiting on those to become available.
If you don't like the silver slide, you can always have it duracoated black.
IMO, the CW45 is a great value, dependable, and accurate. It's a lot of gun for the price, although they are probably more expensive now than they were a couple months ago.

[KCAutoBob]

Tman, I've heard of others having problems with the extended magazine. I'm now carrying a PM9 and I'm using the standard mags that came with it. It seems Kahr could really do their customers (and themselves) a real favor by improving their magazines. If anything, the magazine seems the weak point of the weapon system. I've personally never had a magazine before with this much weakness for shedding a round. Something about the top of the magazine leaves the top round wobbly and relatively loose. Yes, thanks for your experience with your CW45. I'm still looking and the savings are attractive!

[hardluk1]

The CW and P series atleast give most of us a full grip to hold on to and a 2 1/2" barrel. Might be an easy to control pistol too over the smaller cm pm series. I enjoy my cm but the cw and find I can iwb the cw just fine behnd a tucked in shirt too.

[KCAutoBob]

True thing about the control factor. Measuring and comparing Officer's Model (O.M.) to CW45, I find the height close to the same: CW45 Ht.= 5" and O.M. Ht. = 5 1/8" (a teensy bit taller) but the length is different: CW45 O/A L= 6.32", and O.M.'s O/A L= 7.25". Respectively, barrel length is 3.64" and 3.5" which gives a very slight velocity advantage to the CW45, with both pistols having conventional rifling. Also respectively, weight is 19.7 oz.(2 oz. magazine) and 25 oz. (2 oz. mag.) So looking at these figures makes me think the CW45 is more and more appealing when I compare it to my old gun. I'm also fascinated by the possibility of using some of my 1911 magazines for the Kahr. I looked again for the thread I remembered seeing and I see that it was TheTman who'd wrote about his CW45, "It worked better with a Chip McCormick 8 round 1911 mag, which didn't need any modification." I like seeing that, and I'm wondering if the shorter Officers Model magazine also works? Now, I just noticed a post from gb6491 that contained this, "I use Officer's/Compact size 1911 magazines in my CW45". Okay, now that's Way Cool! http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
This is just getting better and better!

[hardluk1]

Looks like your stating to fine tune your choice.

[Armybrat]

Those OMs are nice, but the Kahr has a "smoother" almost snag-proof rear profile. Of course they are different types of pistols.

However, the 7 round mag for my CW45 is a paperweight. It refuses to feed the second round. The three 6 round mags are all good to go.

[O'Dell]

Those OMs are nice, but the Kahr has a "smoother" almost snag-proof rear profile. Of course they are different types of pistols.

However, the 7 round mag for my CW45 is a paperweight. It refuses to feed the second round. The three 6 round mags are all good to go.

Another reason why I never use extended mags in a pistol, especially a small one like a Kahr.

[KCAutoBob]

I have to confess that my OM has snagged and torn my jacket lining before. This is another reason to pick the Kahr 45 over the 1911 design, especially since I'm left-handed and the thumb safety can hang up on any fabrics less durable than firehose canvas. I must admit that I don't think the 1911 design is the ultimate for concealed carry. I've heard tell that Moon was expressly trying to create a pistol suitable for concealed carry; it is "smoother", for sure.

[Bawanna]

I have to confess that my OM has snagged and torn my jacket lining before. This is another reason to pick the Kahr 45 over the 1911 design, especially since I'm left-handed and the thumb safety can hang up on any fabrics less durable than firehose canvas. I must admit that I don't think the 1911 design is the ultimate for concealed carry. I've heard tell that Moon was expressly trying to create a pistol suitable for concealed carry; it is "smoother", for sure.

Blasphemy!

[jocko]

Blasphemy!

he hit the nail right on the head. u 1911 boys are really history, it just has not sunk in yet. I am surprised ur ot walkingaround with a colt peacemaker on ur side:Amflag2:

while us 9mm PMJ guys laugh and laugh..

[gb6491]

he hit the nail right on the head. u 1911 boys are really history, it just has not sunk in yet. I am surprised ur ot walkingaround with a colt peacemaker on ur side:Amflag2:

while us 9mm PMJ guys laugh and laugh..
LOL, I'd bet they said the same thing back in 1935 when the "Grand Puissance" was introduced.

[Bawanna]

If I had a "Real" Colt Peacemaker I'd probably be carrying it.

I've always been told I was born a 100 years too late and I sometimes think so. I truly do love a single action revolver.

Even with DA revolvers I seldom DA them, if they have a hammer I'll c0ck them every time.


I do have a "Real" Colt Navy, 36 caliber black powder but it's a little large for concealed carry and black powder just smells so nasty after you shoot em.

Although I've not shot the Navy, I have replicas I used to shoot. Haven't in a long long time, maybe I'm due?

[newCW45guy]

The CW45 is nice for the money. For $40 you can get a tritium front sight from Kahr to replace the plastic one.

It's a 6+1 though and the grip is full length. Trigger should be identical.

It's still thicker and heavier than the 9's and does kick quite a bit more.

If I were you I'd maybe wait and see what the CM45 comes out as... if it has a flush magazine that does improve concealability. Carrying at 4-5 o'clock the gun rides flat IWB but the grip/mag can get noticable. So much so I'm in the market for a CM9.

[ron melby]

Okay, couldn't help but not comment my CW45 for my first post on Kahr Talk. I couldn't be more pleased with this purchase. Bought mine brand new for under $300 last year before things went crazy. my choices were the Springfield XD or a Glock and the Kahr, I liked the Kahr Cw45 size compared to the others, but didn't like the Kahr's magazine capacity. or how it stuck down below the grip. The $300-$400 price differance made my mind up. I went into the purchase beliving I would probably not be 100% satisfied, but after 400 rounds without a hickup, zero,nada,no problems, plus a smooth as glass trigger, and after I forced myself to work on grip & sight control can constently slow fire a magazine load in a 6" group at 20 yards which is great for me, I feel like it was one of my best firearm purchases I ever made.

Good luck on choosing, and can only hope you will be as satisfied as I am
PS. I have a after market officers 7 round mag. that works flawlesly , fits flush to bottom of grip, and even holds the slide back on the last shot Ron

[KCAutoBob]

Ron, that $300-$400 price difference is a real strong persuader right for me right now, plus I got a small stack of Wilson Combat 7 rd. mags I'd have to do something with.
Darn it all! Decisions, decisions...... Too many good choices!

[adamog133]

pm45 and a backup mag. Good to go imho. .... :)

[KCAutoBob]

LOL, I'd bet they said the same thing back in 1935 when the "Grand Puissance" was introduced.
JMB has a special place in my heart. I also have, besides several 1911s, an elegant 9mm Browning Hi-Power. I love the feel, the 'ergonomics' of these pistols. Just classic. The BHP is also modified ( magazine disconnect removed) but I just can't bring myself to even consider selling it. I can certainly understand why it's still in service usage around the world. Like the 1911 design, it's classic. Hard to find a good replacement....