Burning Question?

[muggsy]

Other than a LEO or someone in the military has anyone experienced, or known of someone who has experienced, the need to reload in a self defense situation. From what I understand most self defense situations end in three shots or less. A curious mind wants to know.

[JustinN]

Even in most LEO shootings, they are limited to a couple rounds. That lady in Georgia here recently needed to reload, since she emptied her revolver and the attacker was still able to flee....but I think that comes down to training more so than the "normal" person being able to take rounds and keep advancing.

I have not heard of a self defense situation where the person needed to reload to stop an attack. In most cases the gun going off is going to make the attacker flee, whether they took hits or not, and if they actually got smacked with rounds, even better. You have to ask yourself, if 5 (going conservative, revolver load) rounds don't deter someone, will 5 more? One of two things should happen, they should run or be dead. If they're still advancing, and you're not putting rounds in places to make them stop, that's a training failure.

[knkali]

Even in most LEO shootings, they are limited to a couple rounds. That lady in Georgia here recently needed to reload, since she emptied her revolver and the attacker was still able to flee....but I think that comes down to training more so than the "normal" person being able to take rounds and keep advancing.

I have not heard of a self defense situation where the person needed to reload to stop an attack. In most cases the gun going off is going to make the attacker flee, whether they took hits or not, and if they actually got smacked with rounds, even better. You have to ask yourself, if 5 (going conservative, revolver load) rounds don't deter someone, will 5 more? One of two things should happen, they should run or be dead. If they're still advancing, and you're not putting rounds in places to make them stop, that's a training failure.
yeah or go to a larger caliber

[JustinN]

A larger caliber works too, but I think even a .22 LR can be effective if you put a few rounds in the right place...

[CJB]

if I could carry a pocketable chaingun with 1000 rounds, I would.

This sort of disucssion is almost pointless. Why even ask? The real question is - should individuals suffer forced limitation on the number of rounds in a magazine? That is the burning question.

This is like asking.... should cars be limited to ten gallon gas tanks? After all, you seldom hear of cars running out of gas, and gas stations are all over the place, so you can "reload" your tank.

BS on that. I want to carry as much fuel as I can, either because I may need to, or just want to fill up less often, or because - the shocker - BECAUSE I WANT TO.

Therein lies the rub. We as Americans enjoy the freedom TO DO AS WE PLEASE. If I want to have 20 or 30 or 100 rouund magazines - I should be able to do so, enjoy them too, for the simple reason that I want to do so.

[wyntrout]

The pistols I CARRY are 5+1+7(PM45), 6+1+7(P40), 6+1+8(PM9) and 6+1+7(P380). I may not NEED the reload, but should the magazine get dropped in a scuffle, or I'm forced to use "un-aimed" rounds at the BG's while seeking cover or escaping, I can put a fresh mag in and do what I have to. 6 or 7 rounds can go quickly and I don't want to hear that click on empty... or the bad guys to realize that I'm out of ammo!

Haven't you ever watched the YouTube videos of actual robbery shootouts?? Bullets are flying at close range... and the hits few... even in police shootouts... using 15-round mags... a whole lot of praying and spraying!

Believe me, you won't have a chance to coolly take aim and squeeze off a few shots.

Wynn:)

[ripley16]

The only one I've ever heard of involved revolvers and a "New York reload". It was a holdup attempt in a store where shots were exchanged and the shop owner used multiple weapons. Had he started with a high capacity gun, he may not have neeeded other revolvers though.

I know of one other instance that came close. A man was attacked by two men. He emptied his tiny NAA revolver. The attackers fled when he aimed and pretended to prepare to fire at them with his now useless weapon. Close call. People usually run away from someone shooting at them.

[muggsy]

if I could carry a pocketable chaingun with 1000 rounds, I would.

This sort of disucssion is almost pointless. Why even ask? The real question is - should individuals suffer forced limitation on the number of rounds in a magazine? That is the burning question.

This is like asking.... should cars be limited to ten gallon gas tanks? After all, you seldom hear of cars running out of gas, and gas stations are all over the place, so you can "reload" your tank.

BS on that. I want to carry as much fuel as I can, either because I may need to, or just want to fill up less often, or because - the shocker - BECAUSE I WANT TO.

Therein lies the rub. We as Americans enjoy the freedom TO DO AS WE PLEASE. If I want to have 20 or 30 or 100 rouund magazines - I should be able to do so, enjoy them too, for the simple reason that I want to do so.

My question didn't have anything to do with the proposed magazine ban. I asked, because several people told me that they wouldn't carry a Kahr, because of the limited magazine capacity. I've never felt under gunned even when carrying my P380. I've only witnessed one shooting. A LEO put two into the chest of a man with a knife. The assailant crumpled like a rag doll. I'm not saying that is always the case. I'm sure that there are occasions where a shooting victim has survived multiple hits. All I'm interested in doing is stopping the threat.

[Bawanna]

That's a sound plan Muggsy. We civilians are in a little different situation than Law Enforcement and we often times forget that.

We just need to stop them enough to get away or stop them from harming others. We don't actively have to pursue and search for the bad guys.

Same physical response I suppose. We want as quick an end to the threat as possible or we probably should not have shot in the first place.

I carry extra mags mostly as insurance against malfunctions although I'm sure in that instance I'll probably wet myself and just roll away rapidly. I like to think I wouldn't but you just don't know till you look the elephant square in the eye.

I have little faith in anyone who would refuse to carry a Kahr or any other pistol because it doesn't hold 13 rounds or more.

[Tinman507]

when I first started carrying concealed I carried a spare mag.
I stopped that since if I don't end the threat in 8 shots, I figure I'm done for anyway. Throwing more at it isn't likely an option in my mind.

[jocko]

kinda figured the same thing. I am not paranoid either, so I carry all the time but I don't get ramboish over it either.

I carry for ol jocko and his family, the neighbor down the street can get his own gun. Just sayin

[O'Dell]

Even in most LEO shootings, they are limited to a couple rounds. That lady in Georgia here recently needed to reload, since she emptied her revolver and the attacker was still able to flee....but I think that comes down to training more so than the "normal" person being able to take rounds and keep advancing.


Well she did hit him with five out of six shots. It wasn't so much that he fled, he was lying on the floor saying "Don't shoot me no more". Maybe the next time she should use a 357.

[JustinN]

I thought they caught him later, and my impression was all but one "hit" was a graze. I could be wrong and have stories mixed up. In that case she did stop the attack so it was successful IMO.

[ltxi]

I always carry a spare mag with my PM9. But that often becomes awkward and so I then carry a 442.

[JohnR]

I'm comfortable carrying 7+1 in my CW45. I've heard all the arguments for carrying double that much in a Glock, and it's all compelling. But is a standard 14-18 gallon gas tank enough 99.9% of the time, or do you want 24 gallons just in case you're on a dark desert highway with no gas stations in sight? Do you plan for the most extreme scenario imaginable, however unlikely, or do you plan for the most likely scenario combined with what's most comfortable to carry and shoot? I think Kahr's pistiols are a pretty ideal compromise for the average citizen.

[muggsy]

When it's possible I carry my CM9 and P380. My feeling is that I can get a second gun into action faster than I can reload in a stressful situation and I don't have to be concerned about a miss-feed. I carry my CM9 AIWB and the P380 in my RF pocket. Yes, it makes me lean a little to the right, but that's a good thing. :)

[Bawanna]

You could have ya one of them V8's and that likely would straighten you right out. Specially if you put the can in your left pocket I reckon.

[sharpetop]

I too carry a spare magazine in case of a malfunction. Hopefully I'll never be in a situation where it has to be used. I would hope that after a shot or two is fired the predator [two or four legged] will be either down or at a full sprint away from me. I'm no longer in the military or a cop so I aint chasing them.

[Scrambler]

Carry a spare for the same reason I carry a pistol. Rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have it.

[CJB]

My question didn't have anything to do with the proposed magazine ban. I asked, because several people told me that they wouldn't carry a Kahr, because of the limited magazine capacity. I've never felt under gunned even when carrying my P380. I've only witnessed one shooting. A LEO put two into the chest of a man with a knife. The assailant crumpled like a rag doll. I'm not saying that is always the case. I'm sure that there are occasions where a shooting victim has survived multiple hits. All I'm interested in doing is stopping the threat.

Ah, my apologies...and I should probably known better, since you were bringing up the question.

I don't feel undergunned out on the street, in public, with my PM45s, but the limitations of their magazines is part of what I am willing to accept in exchange for their compact size.

[RRP]

3 shots, from 3 feet, in 3 seconds. We've all heard that many times. If that is what the data really shows, then you're right, Muggsy. Reloads are rarely needed.

In the winter I can easily conceal a G23. In the warmest summer months, I carry a P380. That's quite a difference in fire power. I don't carry a spare mag and I don't feel under-gunned.

[otium]

I carry a spare magazine because it might give me a chance to fix potential issues more than anything.

With a proper magazine pouch, I find it really isn't that much trouble to take one along, especially with the small single stacks. A double stack of 9 .45s is a little more troublesome, but my back finds offsetting the gun's weight to be a good thing.

[Armybrat]

I never carry a spare mag on my person, but do have two extras in the car.

Out of the hundreds of guns owned by my family, the only relative (besides my LEO nephews) who ever actually threw down on a bad guy was my dear old Texas-born & bred Mother-in-Law (think "Endora" on the TV show Bewitched) who was age 80 at the time.

Late one night her little yappy dogs starting raising a ruckus when a perp was trying to get in the back door by her kitchen. Unbeknownst to me, she had purchased a Titan .25 ACP potmetal special from the local hardware store, then had a cop friend load it for her.

That was the mighty weapon she pulled out to confront the shirtless denizen from south of the border. When she pointed it at him and hollered "GIT OUT", the vato took a long look at it (and her) then took off running....with the yappy little dogs hot on his heels. Would've made a great Youtube video, which I'm sure would've gone "viral"...as they say these days.

No shots necessary, and that's probably a good thing because the LEO had forced one too many of those .25s into the magazine. But having that thing in Condition 1 is pretty scary, as the half cock "safety" is as reliable as an IRS audit turning out well for a taxpayer.

Took her until the next day to find those two toy dogs elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Just sayin'


BTW - I relieved her of that Titan .25 and gave her a new S&W Model 36 and instructed her on how to use it.

[Bawanna]

Good for your mother in law and good for you for fixing her up properly.

[tv_racin_fan]

I thought they caught him later, and my impression was all but one "hit" was a graze. I could be wrong and have stories mixed up. In that case she did stop the attack so it was successful IMO.

Lecerated kidney and liver I think and a punctured lung, so no, she hit him pretty good. I'm still not dead certain of the circumstance but apparently she and her kids were in some sort of attic space accessed from her bed room. I'm thinking from a closet as thats how we did em when we framed em. And the way the hits were described he may have been on his knees crawling when she shot him in the face.

[muggsy]

The only time I carry a spare mag is when I'm not carrying a back-up gun. I carry a spare mag for the warm fuzzy feeling it gives me even though I'll probably never need it. My theory is that one can never be too careful.

[AIRret]

I carry all I can! Spare mag., back up gun.
And a bad attitude. The attitude comes from being raised by good hard working people and growing up in Detroit and being around people who wouldn't leave us alone.

[jocko]

alot do carry a spare. I just feel no need to. If it floats ur boat go for it

Just like the gals ol mother in law, it was the element of surprise tothe BG that got him the hell outta there. A gun is a gun to some BG, alot even carry junk guns themselves, so again when u pull a gun on a Bg, he really wants no part of u. They are basically cowards and most are totally untrained. I just heard on TV where 7 peoople were killed in chicago this weekend and then they had some fokking lady on there that her son was killed in one of those 7 and that made her 3 son that was killed in chicago. She is outta kids. She claimed he was such a good reformed person to for WTF he been in prison for drugs and gang banging. Yes he was black to. Now I don't give a fokk who u are or what color u are if u loose 3 kinds in a town to guns, then sumpin tells me thise 3 were not altar boys at the local Catholic church either. Course Rob Emuale says it really ain't the guns either it is the culture--duh, no sh!t dick tracy, I wonder what gave him his first clue.

Think aobout it, 3 sons all dead to gang violence and yet to hear her, it wasn't their fault..

No doubt if u live in Chicago a single stack gun is not the way to go. Strap one to each leg, 8 sparemags, flak vest for and aft. Night vision would be a nice option to. Better yet MOVE.
do u really think the chicago police are that concerned ab out gang bangers killing gang bangers??? I seriously doubt it. Probalby pisses um off if they hav eto leave a dunkin donut shop to rope off a shootin area due to gang bangers.. though we never hear the great one talking aout this problem in his HOME TOWN.:amflag:

Hope this thread doesnt get locked..

[ltxi]

But to answer Muggsy's initial question.....discounting work/professional neither I nor anyone I know personally has ever found a reload necessary. I don't carry a spare mag. I do often carry a speed strip in my off hand front pocket just 'cause it's easy.

[Armybrat]

Well Jocko, no doubt that sad momma is gettin' down to business to churning out some more stellar citizens...on the taxpayers' dime, no doubt.

They are Mayor Rahm's beloved constituents.

[Scoundrel]

A larger caliber works too, but I think even a .22 LR can be effective if you put a few rounds in the right place...

I am very glad to see someone else in the gun community supporting this attitude.

My dad is 72, and recently got interested in handguns again (my fault). We tried him out on several, and he did well with a Ruger P95. But then he broke his collarbone, and now, after being "fully healed", he limp-wrists it and experiences failures to eject and feed properly (it works fine when I shoot it). Even when it doesn't have failures, his groups are large. He worked for a month with those squeeze hand grip things to strengthen his grip, but the results were the same.

So we tried the Taurus Judge, which he liked the look and feel of, but the recoil was too much for him. We gave that up after only 10 shots, when the trigger guard was abusing his knuckles and it looked like he was going to drop the thing.

Then we tried him out on a Ruger MK III 22/45 Target, and he was able to shoot quickly, reliably, and accurately, with reasonably sized groups. He likes that gun a lot, and I sent him home with 700 rounds of practice ammo and a box of Stingers for home defense. He's looking into night sights for it.

A lot of people are disdainful toward .22lr, but you gotta consider this: If the choice is between a 9mm that doesn't cycle properly in his hands, a .45 revolver that he can't keep ahold of and that threatens to hurt him, and a .22lr that he can shoot well, then the choice is clear.

We figure that 10 low-powered rounds that he might be able to place well is a great deal better than nothing in a home defense scenario.

[Planedude]

My Dad is 76 now. He felt he needed to have a handgun for SD at his house. He wanted a "stupid reliable .22" so he could shoot it well.
So I gave him my old RG single action "peacemaker" (with gen-u-ine plastic "stag" grips) loaded with CCI Stingers.
He's happy, a BG in the dark dang sure would'nt be.
Oh! and as a fallback weapon if they don't run from the ferocious .22? He retrived his old Winchester 1200 12 gauge from my safe (stored there for years) shooting 1oz birdshot loads.
With that he feels they are good enough. Who am I to question that?

[Mike Brownhouse]

FWIW, a buddy of mine is a cop in a big city. His off-duty weapon is a Smith & Wesson Airweight .38 Special 5-shot, with no additional ammunition. He doesn't see a need for more than that. I personally would want the option to reload, and it's easily done with a semi-auto, but then I like to be extra-well-prepared.

[Popeye]

A larger caliber works too, but I think even a .22 LR can be effective if you put a few rounds in the right place...


Agree with this thinking also. There are many people killed or threats stopped do to the lowly 22LR. I prefer my Pm9 for EDC and I only carry one mag. If I'm going into know trouble spots then I take a different pistol with a longer barrel and larger round capacity.

[Double3]

It makes me smile to carry 17+1.

[Scoundrel]

Agree with this thinking also. There are many people killed or threats stopped do to the lowly 22LR. I prefer my Pm9 for EDC and I only carry one mag. If I'm going into know trouble spots then I take a different pistol with a longer barrel and larger round capacity.

“Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?” “NO Ma’am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.”

[jlottmc]

The only time I needed reloads was Bosnia, or one of the times I got a little lost in the field reloads were my friends then, and I still carry them. Soon they will be required for the uniform.

[Don K.]

CW9 with one in the pipe and a full mag slapped into place for me. If its not done with this I should have brought the 870 or EBG along.

[Armybrat]

It makes me smile to carry 17+1.

Ruger SR9?

[ORSalesRep]

Given that statisically more and more crimes involve multiple assailants, I usually carry two extra magaizines. I also try to weigh that against my attire's ability to conceal them along with what part of town I expect to be travelling in. For me, it is the same logic as always being armed. I would rather have spare magazines and not need them, than need them and not have them.