Prints Rejected

[ITCH]

So a buddy of mine i have known all my life that has also been collecting guns for a very long time calls me and says man you are not going to believe this and i was like whats up. He said he went a few months ago to get finger printed so that he could carry his gun or guns if need be. He said they rejected his application because it showed that he had some kind of domestic thing with a ex girlfriend when he was younger. I was like man did you go to jail for it and he was like man i have never hit a woman in my life sure i have had girlfriends and sure who doesn't fight in a relationship sometimes verbally. The thing that he cant understand is he has been collecting buying and shooting guns for more then 10 years now. He doesn't understand how they can reject his fingerprints for having arguments with past ex girlfriends. I thought i would post this since i have never heard anything about this before or ever been in this kinda situation.

He is really pissed off. He told me him and his wife now have spent a lot of money on getting there carry permits and now it looks like they will not be getting them. He has also told me he has over 100 guns now and has never had any issues buying or obtaining them his back ground checks were always clean. I just don't know how to help this guy. I mean does he need to contact the courts in the city's he has lived in? Does he need to contact the sheriffs of the counties he has lived in? Is there anything judges can do to help him resolve this? I am just wondering I also feel sorry for the guy and his family.

What he told me he has spent trying to obtain permits for him and his wife:

Safety Course and Class $180.00
Dept Of Safety Fee $230.00

Said he waited 4 months and letter came in the mail saying you have been Rejected !!!

[Bawanna]

There has to be a conviction for Domestic Violence. Here in Washington and there too I'm sure he can get an attorney and get his gun rights restored. But there's something fishy here. If he's been buying guns it should have come up before especially if he didn't have a carry permit and the shop made the call.

It clearyly stated his permit application was rejected or his finger prints themselves were rejected. Poor prints come back all the time and he just needs to get them taken again and resubmit.

I think there's a few cards left out of this deck, it don't add up.

I have had guys with convictions from long ago that completely forgot. Come in to complain about a rejection and then have an aha moment when they are reminded. I generally tell them to get an attorney and get his rights restored. Not easy, and takes awhile but it can be done.

[ITCH]

He told me they are rejecting him a permit because of a fight he had with a old girlfriend 10 years ago. He has also told me many many times he has bought firearms and his back ground checks were always clean. I don't know how to help the guy out sounds crazy.

[Bawanna]

Did he go to jail and have a court date with a conviction?

[Tinman507]

He needs a gun rights attorney in his home state.
If there's a gun forum for his local area, that is a good place to begin for recommendations.

[ITCH]

He told me he pleaded guilty and was on probation. But keep in mind people he has bought over 100 guns and all back ground checks came back clean. Also he said it was from 10 years ago and was a fight between him and a ex g/f. He said he never hit her but they arrested him. Yeah i told him i would obtain a legal attorney if i was him.

[Tinman507]

sorry to say but I think he's got a real problem.

Needs that attorney real bad.

http://inlandpolitics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Time-to-put-a-fork-in-it.jpg

[jocko]

there is sumpin fishy here. someone is not telling the truth..

[ITCH]

Define Domestic Violence someone !

[Tinman507]

It could have been Cross Dressing for all it matters, He was arrested and plead guilty. Probation was his break. The real penalty is happening now.
He's ineligible for a carry permit and will likely remain so.

I know of guys who got DUI's and plead. Got First Timers Adjudication and are clean....EXCEPT on renewal of their LCTF (PA) were denied.

I know he's your bud and all, but isn't this the way the law should work? Isn't this what we're all hoping happens in the future post-Sandy Hook? the reality sucks, but this is kind of how it's supposed to be.

[Bawanna]

I suspect perhaps buying guns might be a different check than a carry permit. State and federal laws are two different things.

Domestic Violence I'm sure is interpreted differently in each state. Here in order for it to be domestic violence it has to be physical. An argument if a verbal dispute. Here state law mandates that on a domestic violence call somebody goes to jail, sometimes both parties.
I'm also proud that it's no longer always the male, often times the female goes now days too.

The officer determines the primary aggressor and they go to jail. If they are convicted and it sounds like your friend was too, that takes away your right to possess firearms. Game over, do not pass go, even if your a cop.

He plead guilty to something so it's on his record. Why he can buy guns is still a mystery but it happens. Again state and local law are not always the same.

[ITCH]

I don't think he was cross dressing. But i do see your point. So this guy has 100 guns and has obtained them all legally with clean back ground checks and cant get a permit because of something he did 10 years ago. To me that is crazy. I told him to get a lawyer to deal with it. Was the only advice i could give. Just thought i would share with others. Funny thing is i have been married a few times in my life time and I have also been arrested for getting into arguments with ex wifes when i was a drinker in my younger days. Well anyways i have my permit and have had it for many years. Kinda funny how things work out i guess.

[Scoundrel]

He told me he pleaded guilty and was on probation. But keep in mind people he has bought over 100 guns and all back ground checks came back clean. Also he said it was from 10 years ago and was a fight between him and a ex g/f. He said he never hit her but they arrested him. Yeah i told him i would obtain a legal attorney if i was him.


Define Domestic Violence someone !

I know the guy's your buddy and all, but here's the thing: You've just said that he remembers a thing that happened with a girlfriend where he went to court and pleaded guilty to a charge. End of story.

So his background checks passed when he bought guns. The only thing that means is that the people doing the checks were sloppy, didn't have good access to the records, or maybe the thing is so old it's in the old microfiche system and not in the computers - but it still exists, and when the local authority for concealed carry permits looked deep enough, they found it.

There's nothing anyone on this forum can say or do to refute this. He needs to hire an attorney. The attorney needs to:
1. Send an assistant to the hall of records to dig up the case.
2. Examine the case closely to get the facts.
3. Research the law as it stood at that time.
4. Research changes to the law since then, and whether those changes are retroactive.
5. Determine a course of action that can be taken, if any.
6. Follow through with it and hope the prosecutor's office is in a lenient mood.


You can take this as the voice of experience.


Here's a good definition of domestic violence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence

[Scoundrel]

So this guy has 100 guns and has obtained them all legally with clean back ground checks and cant get a permit because of something he did 10 years ago.

The court will not agree that he obtained these firearms legally. They will say that he was made aware of the consequences of his conviction at the time, and it is his responsibility to remember that he cannot legally own firearms.

If, while fighting this, he tells the court that he has possession of 100 firearms that he supposedly legally obtained, and offers that as proof of his eligibility for a permit, they're going to come down HARD on him. The system does not like to be told that the system is broken.

One more piece of advice for your buddy: Tell him to hand over ALL of his guns to a trusted friend, and ask that friend to lock them up and:
1. Do not give them back until this has been cleared up, and/or:
2. In the event that it cannot be cleared up, sell the firearms on his behalf.

This will eliminate any concerns about him currently having firearms in his control or possession, will show good faith on his part if the court wants to know what became of his firearms, and probably keep his ass out of jail.

Expect the thing with the attorney and the restoration of rights to take at least a year and cost at least $5000 in attorney's fees.

It sucks, but that's where it is.

[ITCH]

Update he says it was never Domestic Violence he pleaded guilty too. He is on the phone telling me it was a restraining order a ex g/f put on him 10 years ago.

[Scoundrel]

Attorney.

[ITCH]

I am on the phone with him now. He said he called the counties where he has lived in and the only thing it shows is a restraining order 10 years old.

[Scoundrel]

It doesn't matter what he says or even what the truth is, in the short term. What matters is what is legal, and he'll need some help to make the local authority listen to that.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but if the local authority has denied him officially, his only hope is get his guns out of his possession/control and get an attorney involved. It would be best to do so before they come for his guns and throw him in jail (justifiably or not).

If you have any further doubts, talk to 1st Sergeant Matthew Corrigan.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/23/miller-iraq-vet-brutalized-over-guns-dc/

[Bawanna]

If the restraining order is still valid even though it's 10 years old that is a disqualifier here in Washington. Our restraining orders even have a Brady check box that clearly indicates no guns, or guns are ok.

I don't know how your laws work there but Scoundrel has some fine ideas presented.

[jocko]

ur bawanna is right. same here in Indiana. don't ask me how I know either.

[ITCH]

I am sharing and passing the word. We are in TN

[downtownv]

Wwwwhat?

[KoolBreeze]

I'm confused, did he plead guilty to a crime in a court of law or not? I wouldn't think an old restraining order would have any bearing on whether or not he qualifies for a carry permit.

In today's world, they mean business with the domestic violence charges. Here physical contact is not required in order for you to be charged with it. You yell at your wife, wife calls the cops, cops come and you go to jail on a domestic violence charge if they decide to take you. And it use to be that the so called victim could drop the charges and that would be the end of it. Now the state/county/city will pursue the charges even if the victim doesn't want too.

[downtownv]

Is this a domestic violence case? If so for who?

[Tilos]

Regardless of the circumstances, it can only be fixed with more time and money spent.
He knows ALL of what happened and must decide what it's worth to continue...we cannot.

[ITCH]

He was charged for harassing and trespassing and a ex g/f put a restraining order on him also and he was on probation. I told him to contact a lawyer. His carry permit and finger prints should of never been rejected for this i don't believe. Just sharing some information.

[Armybrat]

Define Domestic Violence someone !

I once started cussing loudly when I accidentally dropped a spoon in the running garbage disposal.

[ITCH]

Well i don't really want to get involved with this even though he is a good friend of mine. But i told him i would hold on to his guns for awhile till he can get this sorted out. This is of course legal for me to do isn't it? He has all paper work for all 100 guns plus receipts when he bought them all.

[Bawanna]

As long as your not a convicted felon or had a Domestic Violence conviction your good to go.

Here verbal don't fly, somebody has to hit somebody. Then somebody goes in the back of the cruiser regardless if the other half wants charges or not.

Thank your congress woman for that.

[ripley16]

The issue here isn't what qualifies your friend to buy a gun, but rather what disqualifies him from carrying a concealed weapon. Two different standards. Read your state and/or local ordinances for the concealed carry requirements. A conviction for a violent offense probably rules him out.


13. Shall not have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C.A. 921 (33);

[Scoundrel]

Well i don't really want to get involved with this even though he is a good friend of mine. But i told him i would hold on to his guns for awhile till he can get this sorted out. This is of course legal for me to do isn't it? He has all paper work for all 100 guns plus receipts when he bought them all.

You'll need to look up the laws for your state to be certain, but a quick Google search seems to indicate that no permit/license/registration is required for ownership or private transfer in Tennessee.

But if you don't want to get involved, holding onto 100 guns for someone is kinda getting involved.

[ITCH]

Yeah i know that is a big responsibility in my book. I have my own lol

[ITCH]

Effective July 1, 2005, Tennessee handgun carry permit law will now allow certain applicants already exempt from complying with firing range provisions of the current statute to also be exempt from any classroom requirements. Those current exceptions are applicants who prove to the department that within five (5) years from the date of application for handgun permit, the applicant has:
Been certified by the police officer's standards and training commission, or
successfully completed training at the law enforcement training academy; or
successfully completed the firearms training course required for armed security guards; or
successfully completed all handgun training of not less than four (4) hours as required by any branch of the military.
Applicants are required to be a resident of the State of Tennessee;
Be at least twenty-one (21) years of age;
Applicants shall not have been convicted of any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year;
Applicants shall not currently be under indictment or information for any criminal offense punishable by a term exceeding one (1) year;
Shall not be currently the subject of any order of protection;
Shall not be a fugitive from justice;
Shall not be an unlawful user of or addicted to alcohol or any controlled substance and the applicant has not been a patient in a rehabilitation program or hospitalized for alcohol or controlled substance abuse or addiction within ten (10) years from the date of application;
The applicant has not been convicted of the offense of driving under the influence of an intoxicant in this or any other State two (2) or more times within ten (10) years from the date of application and that none of such convictions has occurred within five (5) years from the date of application or renewal.
Shall not have been adjudicated as mental defective; has not been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution; has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect; has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of a mental illness, development disability or other mental incapacity; and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in Title 33, Chapter 6, Part 5, because of mental illness;
Shall not be an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
Shall not have been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions (dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or a dismissal; Chapter 1340-2-4-.02 (5);
Having been a citizen of the United States, applicants shall not have renounced their citizenship;
Shall not have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C.A. 921 (33);
Shall not be receiving social security disability benefits by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability;
Shall not have been convicted of the offense of stalking;

[ITCH]

Looks like he is screwed no matter what. It states subject of any order of protection !!!

[Scoundrel]

Specifically, it states:
"Shall not be currently the subject of any order of protection;"

So, no problem. Track down the ex-GF, send her some flowers, a box of chocolates, a sincere apology, and ask her to cancel the restraining order.


If you're still researching whether he should have been denied, that's a good start. Next you need the specific code of the actual crime that he pled guilty to.

Based on a layman's interpretation, getting the restraining order gone is half of the issue, but there's still the matter of the conviction, whatever it was.

[Bawanna]

Again it may be fixable if it's like 10 years back and he's been clean since then but it will take an attorney, time and money to get it all right.

[ITCH]

Man the things we do for FRIENDS ha ha. I told him i would buy a few guns from him and he got mad at me ha ha

[jocko]

could very well be the restraining order was never ask to be lifed either, so it just sits there. I would think a lawyer could get this lifted, but again not ure if that will get what he wants done either....

[Longitude Zero]

Some states made prior assault and battery chages ex post facto domestic abuse. Get an attorney in his state to investigate and challenge. Sadly it will not be cheap. As to NICS not picking this up it is more common than most believe. NICS is not 100%.

[JustinN]

At least here in Missouri, there is a difference in being able to legally buy a firearm, and getting a CCW permit. As long as he didn't have a felony, etc he can buy the gun, BUT here the Sheriff gets the say in issuing you a permit....and if you plead guilty to a domestic assault charge (I don't know of any other "domestic" crime you could get charged with) they're probably going to reject it. The last thing they need is to issue a guy a CCW permit, who has domestic assault history (legit or not), who then ends up shooting someone (maybe an ex) and the news get a hold of it. I'd say he's probably done for on that one.

Again, just because he can legally buy a gun doesn't mean he automatically can get his CCW. Difference set of standards to compare you against....notice how for a gun they don't take your finger prints?

[jocko]

makes sense

[RRP]

If his guns are stolen from your home, you are responsible.
If a fire destroys your home, you are responsible for his weapons.

My advice is to steer clear of this drama. No good can come from you getting involved.

[Rotorflyr]

He told me him and his wife now have spent a lot of money on getting there carry permits and now it looks like they will not be getting them

So what's stopping his wife from getting her permit?

[RRP]

Here's another reason to steer clear of this drama, ITCH.

The BATF background check form we sign when we purchase a weapon includes these two questions:


h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
i. Have you been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?Do you think your friend answered these questions honestly? I wouldn't harbor his guns if he paid me. Beware brother beware.

[rhd04]

I've read some really good advise! Scoundrel, if you're not a lawyer you sure sound like one! I bet you could pass the bar. When I was getting divorced my ex tried to file all that stuff on me. It was a joke, the judge didn't buy any of it.

[Scoundrel]

I've read some really good advise! Scoundrel, if you're not a lawyer you sure sound like one! I bet you could pass the bar.

I just watch a lot of cop shows.

[ITCH]

Yeah i told him i was sorry that he was having to deal with all this crap from a ex g/f It does suck. I also told him i could not be responsible for holding or storing his guns. I just don't wanna get in the middle of it. He sounded like he understood but i don't think he did really. It is just to big of a liability on my part and i don't want the responsibility of it. I think most would agree with me on this one.

[Longitude Zero]

Yeah i told him i was sorry that he was having to deal with all this crap from a ex g/f It does suck. I also told him i could not be responsible for holding or storing his guns. I just don't wanna get in the middle of it. He sounded like he understood but i don't think he did really. It is just to big of a liability on my part and i don't want the responsibility of it. I think most would agree with me on this one.

I definitely support your decision here. Nothing good can come from involvement in this debacle.

[yqtszhj]

He told me he pleaded guilty and was on probation.

There you go.....

If it's in Tennessee that was probably something Tennessee didn't share with the national database. That's good and bad.

I can say that if the sheriff ran a background check in Alabama he could likely be denied too, and Alabama is relatively liberal with issuing their permits. But the sheriff can deny a request.

[ITCH]

Sometimes things that happen in life suck. But when it comes down to it. We must all look out for our selfs.

[yqtszhj]

Words of advice to your buddy, he needs to drop the whole thing for now and do some research. Don't want too many people asking questions or he may lose some stuff. Don't start a battle until you have what you need to win. That's my thoughts anyway.

And for now he can keep his own stuff while he does his research.

[ORSalesRep]

He told me they are rejecting him a permit because of a fight he had with a old girlfriend 10 years ago. He has also told me many many times he has bought firearms and his back ground checks were always clean. I don't know how to help the guy out sounds crazy.

No way. Something is missing from the story. He would had to have been arrested and convicted or taken a plea. Did he tell you whether he was arrested or os he simply saying it was a vetbal argument that police were called to the scene for?

[rhd04]

Maybe his close family can do it.

[ORSalesRep]

here's another reason to steer clear of this drama, itch.

The batf background check form we sign when we purchase a weapon includes these two questions:

Do you think your friend answered these questions honestly? I wouldn't harbor his guns if he paid me. Beware brother beware.

100% agreement!

[OldLincoln]

Some states made prior assault and battery chages ex post facto domestic abuse. Get an attorney in his state to investigate and challenge. Sadly it will not be cheap. As to NICS not picking this up it is more common than most believe. NICS is not 100%.
This ^ in CA, all you have to be is charged (ever), not convicted of family/spouse abuse and even worse is the restraining order (ever) for same.

I just filled out the paper yesterday and saw it again for myself. Fortunately I've never even raised my voice to my wife or son and always done whatever they asked of me so they will repay my kindness by not claiming otherwise. Keep in mind that if a spouse does not want a gun ion the house all she has to do is get the charges placed, then dropped and you are history as far as guns go.

Is it right, of course not! Is it just, of course not! Our legal system is a system of laws that occasionally overlap right and just, but less often than you may think.

[rhd04]

If you only have to be charged to lose your gun rights, every divorced male in my state would have lost them! It's an almost automatic charge upon seperation. The lawyers tell the women to file them. I believe it's for "leverage" they can use in the future.

[KoolBreeze]

If you only have to be charged to lose your gun rights, every divorced male in my state would have lost them! It's an almost automatic charge upon seperation. The lawyers tell the women to file them. I believe it's for "leverage" they can use in the future.

Ain't that the truth! Just another of many reasons I'm SO glad I do not live in CA.

[OldLincoln]

Okay, I went back and checked it out and you are right. You have to be convicted of misdemeanor (or greater) spousal abuse to be disqualified. There is a ton of case law on it which essentially boils down to: "any willful infliction of force or violence upon your intimate partner" which is further defined as "use [of] the slightest force... any unwanted physical touching will suffice.4 This is often referred to as simple domestic battery. This means that you don't actually have to injure your intimate partner to be convicted of this particular domestic violence crime.

Example: Donna, at a movie in Long Beach with her boyfriend Rich, slaps him across the face. Even though the contact doesn't hurt or leave any visible mark, Long Beach Police (http://www.longbeach.gov/police) could arrest Donna for this domestic battery violation."

Also

"A Penal Code 240 pc assault (http://www.shouselaw.com/assault.html) takes place when you perform an act that is likely to result in the application of force to another.12 In order to be convicted of assault, you don't actually need to make contact with the other person. You just have to make the attempt and have the ability to actually do so."

Now, how hard is it to get a misdemeanor conviction? Answer, bottom line is in CA they are so bent on protecting the female that juries lean toward conviction if it is a man on woman dispute. The opposite if woman on man. Oh, and there was stuff in there regarding corporal punishment of a child. Nobody said life is fair.

[JimC]

The bottom line to all of this is for you to advise your friend to get he best lawyer he can afford, who is well versed in TN gun laws, and take it from there.

Way too much speculation going on here.

IMO, as you have been advised, stay clear of this drama and his guns. I think there's more to it than he might be telling you.

[rhd04]

A good lawer?? That's like asking for dry water... Lol

[jocko]

A good lawer?? That's like asking for dry water... Lol

it beats tryng to do it yourself.

what is the difference between a whore and a lawyer. SPELLING.

[muggsy]

ITCH, you might want to contact the courts to find out what kind of crap he put his ex-girlfriend through to encourage her get a restraining order on him. He doesn't sound like someone with whom I'd want to be friends. I found that in life that most of us create our own bad luck. Your friend seems to have buckets full of bad luck. Don't allow his bad luck to spill over on to you. Con men seem like the nicest people in the world until they stick it up your arse.

[LProf]

it beats tryng to do it yourself.

what is the difference between a whore and a lawyer. SPELLING.

Now, that's not nice. There are lawyers on the Forum.

[Tinman507]

Not to mention the Hockey Players, er I mean, oh never mind.

[knkali]

ITCH, you might want to contact the courts to find out what kind of crap he put his ex-girlfriend through to encourage her get a restraining order on him. He doesn't sound like someone with whom I'd want to be friends. I found that in life that most of us create our own bad luck. Your friend seems to have buckets full of bad luck. Don't allow his bad luck to spill over on to you. Con men seem like the nicest people in the world until they stick it up your arse.

Fok n A. I agree 1000+