Why Wont It Chamber? CW45

[Abraxxas]

I've read numerous posts online about Kahr's being picky about what ammo they will chamber and wont due to their tight chambers. I want to share what I found with mine tonight after I locked it up tight today on it's first trip to the range while attempting to chamber one of my target loads after 100rds of Remington factory ball ammo.

I pulled the barrel out for cleaning tonight and attempted to chamber some various ammo by dropping them in while holding the barrel. I found some dropped right in while others stopped short of fully chambering. This is easier than trying to pry my action open like I had to do at the range today :) I found that hollow points with a pronounced shoulder on them like Hornady XTP's and the Nosler Custom Competition 185's that I love to load so much for my other 45's were what caused the problem.

I took one that wouldnt chamber and dropped it in until it stopped and then grabbed the base of the shell with my fingers and twisted it back and forth about 90 deg while light pressing forward and pulled it out. The barrel is steel, the bullet jacket and shell case are soft metals so I knew the barrel/chamber should leave marks on the cartridge where it is hanging up. It was on the shoulder of the bullet as pictured below. On the left is a Nosler 185 handload and on the right is a Federal HydraShok. The Hydrashok drops right in, the Nosler does not... notice the difference in profiles close to the case mouth. The Hydrashok has a profile very similar to ball ammo until the top, so it chambers.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5811.jpg

Because the marks from me twisting the cartridge in the chamber are on the bullet and not the casing, I started to look at the barrel and not the chamber. The chamber is no tighter than than my other 45's just by feeling the amount of freeplay with a cartdridge fully chambered. Pictured below is the lead-in to the rifling in my barrel.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5804.jpg

It is a steeper angle than my other 45's, but not that much different... why is it touching the bullet before the cartridge is fully chambered I wondered? As Im staring at it scratching my head I noticed that the lead-in is not uniform. Pictured above is the left side of my barrel, pictured below is the right side of my barrel. Notice the difference in the angle of the bevel on the beginning of the rifling.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5803.jpg

THIS is why it will not chamber the bullets with a more pronounced shoulder profile. Is this considered defective? Normal? I dont know, this is my first Kahr. Perhaps some of you could take a look and see if your picky eater looks like this? I could get around this by changing the bullet seating depth of my target loads to work with this gun so Im not terribly concerned about it myself at this point. I did however want to share my findings because I've read a fair amount about folks having picky eaters that wont chamber certain types of ammo. Many of the threads on various forums/reviews seem to have the XTP style bullet causing the problems.

Brian

[Ikeo74]

Those are great pictures of the inside of the barrel. I think there is nothing wrong inside there and what you are seeing is just that the lighting is making the angles "only" appearing to be different on one side. (because of shadow effect)

Now the fix is to simply shorten your OAL until the bullet fully seats in the Kahr. When you get it to fit the Kahr it will still work in your other guns. If you need OAL verification, post what yours is now and what it is after you get it to fit the Kahr. Kahrs are known for a short chamber but not a defective chamber.

[Ikeo74]

I think the bullet on the left, the Nosler, was stuck in the lands because the OAL was too long and there looks like the one in the picture may have pulled out of the case some when you removed it. It appears like there are some scuff marks on the bullet below the green arrow where it pulled out of the case some. Measure that one's OAL to compare with other Noslers that you have not chambered yet to see if it became longer. Anyway I load that same bullet in 9 mm in my Kahr and they are quite accurate from my gun. Much better than some of my round nose reloads.
I also load Nosler sporting hand gun bullets for my Springfield XD45 without any problems.

By the way, you have a very clean chamber in the pictures. I don't see any fouling of any kind. Great cleaning job.

[wyntrout]

The OAL on the left is longer and it "seems" that the case is longer from the photo. Nice photos, too. I would adjust the seating depth a bit lower until they all chamber.

You can mark the bullet with a Sharpie before testing it as you did and see the marks better, perhaps without turning the bullet.

Wynn:)

[CJB]

I see three problems.

First - you expect your pet load to work in the Kahr. That is not the case in reloading for differing mechanisms; reloading the 45ACP; or reloading in general.

Second - In your fine example of the ammunition, I'd say you're seated out too far. That may be ok in the guns the load was worked up for. Again, expectations are such that unless you're reloading very generically, you're going to have to work things out for yourself to make the ammo fit the gun.

Third - you're barrel chamber is out of concenticity with the bore. Thats an issue. The chambering reamer cuts the rifling lead-in. If you look even more carefully at your excellent photos, youll see that where the lead-in is greatest, the "step" at the end of the chamber is deepest. And, where the lead in is least, the "step" is also shallower. That is an issue, and I'd send those images to Kahr, with expectation of a barrel replacement.

The problem could be fixed with the right tooling, but would be a lot easier for Kahr to replace the barrel. If this was in my shop (in the day), I'd have gotten a piece of round stock, measured the chamber turned the stock to fit the chamber, measured the bore, turned a taper in the stock to give bore diameter in "X" amount of desired lead, cut a relief for the grinding compound (so as not to fubar the chamber), and ground a new lead in, leaving the chamber out of center.

I wouldn't expect Kahr to do that unless they had a load of barrels to rework and set someone to the task for a long time - as it would be a lengthy rework, not a 5 minute job.

[DLButler]

I have had the same problems with differnts shaped bullets. I adjusted the OAL for the Kahr and also am now using the Lee Factory crimp die instead of just the taper crimp die. I started using the factory after some freinds also had trouble chambering some of the loads. The die was the only thing I changed and all seem to work well now. Also, I tried semi-wad cutters once and had dismal results. That was one load I never tried again.

[CJB]

The Lee die... is good for such instances. It really is made to load more "generic" ammo than "specialty" ammo, and does very well for that.

[Abraxxas]

Thanks for the replies and ideas. The lead-in is in fact shorter on one side, I used the shadow effect to show a good contrast between the lead angle and the straight rifling heading the rest of the way out.

The cartridge on the left in the photo is not the one that was used when it locked up, that one is still in my shooting box, these two are just examples I used for the pictures.

CJB - The OAL of my target loads are 1.230 and they are all made with Lee dies and the factory crimp die that sizes the completed cartridge on the way out of it. I will shorten them up a bit. I didnt "expect" them to work, I had read these guns can be picky especially with handloads so I brought a box with to try and see if mine was one of them. And good catch on the chamber concentricity being a likely cause for the lead-in varience, I wouldnt have thought of that. I work on my own guns but my knowledge of the machining processes involved and how they all work are very limitted. I will send the pictures to Kahr and see what they say.

[Ikeo74]

Your chamber photo could be used as an instruction and information photo to show new reloaders and shooters what stops the case inside the chamber to provide the proper case seating in the chamber. Then a good explanation for why, if new reloaders over crimp the case will slip past the dark lip in your photo and cause seating problems by the case going too deep into the chamber and into the lands. Then when that happens the striker can not reach far enough to indent the primer enough to fire the cartridge. A lot of reloaders do not understand the process.

[jocko]

if u tell kah rthe issue is with reloads. they are not gonna give u any good answer.The lead in/freebore might look wrong but I see no rea issues with it to effect anything other than it might not work good with round with to long of anOAL.

actualy kahrs are not ammo sensistive by any means.. Handloads are a whole different ball game but hard to blame the gun for that..

[CJB]

The Kahr is not picky.

OAL is meaningless, except - determining what will fit the magazine (or ought to at least). The SAAMI OAL shows 1.275, which means you're .025 over SAAMI lengh. Then again, they assume a standard... I think its a 2 caliber secant ogive. Don't shoot me on the value.. it may be 1.5 or 2.5... but its standardized, and thats the point.

After that... you're on your own really... as far as working up loads.

The real issue is off center chamber in your barrel. Thats the part that would really concern me. If you imagine the chambering reamer with a lead-in cutting edge that intersects the rifling, and the reaming being off center, then its easy to see that it would cut into the rifling more on one side, than the other. Thats what you have.

Considering the lands run about .449ish, and the grooves run about .452ish, that leaves land elevation of only about .0015 - ouch, and we all know that 45acps have shallow grooves (or short lands?) anyway. A chamber that was offset by... half that amount - less than .001 of an inch - would give a lead in that was similar to what you have.

I'd call Kahr and see what they say.

[jocko]

CJB are u saying that at the very beginning of that round leaving the gun that it will not corret itself with the remaining length of the barrel,or are u saying this is off the entire length of the barrel?? I never heard him say anything about accuracy pro or con. Just asking here as I don't have the nowledge that ur putting forth.

I hope we are not making a mountain out of a molehill on this either. as it seems his issues are OAL length and he knows how to correct that. I could appreciate the concentricity on the end of the barrel needing to be perfect. Somebarrelscvould have more freebore than others but wold that mean that whenthe bullet leaves that casing thatit before it gets to the actualrifle is not maybe off a cunntiss hair but then corrects itslef immediately when the fullriflings take over.

I am just asking to learn, sno contesting, asI am sure not gonna look inside of any of my barrels and see sumpin thatI think might not be right but has up to now been OK

[Abraxxas]

And just to clarify my purpose of this thread in the first place, Im not bashing, complaining or saying anything negative about the gun or the manufacturer. The gun is extremely accurate and shoots to POA wonderfully. I know how to correct the issue of my loads, and similarly styled factory loads not chambering in the gun now that I know WHY they wont chamber in the gun. While I was researching this gun before I purchased it, I did see many people who said their guns had trouble chambering certain types of factory, and hand loaded ammo. My purpose of the thread was to share my findings with others who may have the same problem and possibly help somebody else come to their own conclusions of ways around it as well.

And I did send the photos to Kahr via email and will share their response once I hear back.

[CJB]

Jocko,
If you could get the round chambered in an offset chamber, in a pistol there would be little practical effect on accuracy as there are tons of other things that spoil the shot. Things like sight image with a short sight radius, the ability to even hold that accurately, the limits of pistol ammunition and ballistics, mechanical accuracy of the pistol, etc etc. If you could actually determine that an offset chamber caused maybe something like .2 inch increase in group size at 50 yards (I'm just tossin numbers out... ) then you'd say... ok.. no big deal.

Offset chambers, and offset lead-in to the rifling will have the bullet tilted as it enters the rifling. As the bullet travels down the barrel one of two things can happen. Either it self corrects by deformation of the bullet itself, or more likely, its nose turns in little circles rather than turning dead true down the bore. In the later case, the same continues as the bullet leaves the barrel..... with all sorts of stuff possible downrange.

The practical aspects would apply to bench shooters. They take great great pains to get a concentric chamber. Ridiculous pains. And they also take great pains to pre-spin the bullets to see which are formed true, and to see which may be not have their weight centered either (thick jacket on one side, or bad core). Then they make sure the boat tails or flat bases are all perfectly true, as it matters due to gas escaping at the crown, which must also be perfectly true. All that matters when you're trying to shoot a group that is little more than the bore size of the gun! And thats why bench shooters are generally grumpy old men. Far grumpier than ice fishermen or golfers.

In a pistol.. who cares really, except... it looks bad, and it may help his chambering issue. But I agree - he's too long and needs to back his bullet down by a good .025-.030 inches, with reduction in load too, to account for the smaller volume with deeper seating, so as to not go too high on pressure.

[jocko]

And just to clarify my purpose of this thread in the first place, Im not bashing, complaining or saying anything negative about the gun or the manufacturer. The gun is extremely accurate and shoots to POA wonderfully. I know how to correct the issue of my loads, and similarly styled factory loads not chambering in the gun now that I know WHY they wont chamber in the gun. While I was researching this gun before I purchased it, I did see many people who said their guns had trouble chambering certain types of factory, and hand loaded ammo. My purpose of the thread was to share my findings with others who may have the same problem and possibly help somebody else come to their own conclusions of ways around it as well.

And I did send the photos to Kahr via email and will share their response once I hear back.

I think we all know that, no hrm no foul. y questions to CJB were more for melearning process. I thyink he answered mine well enought that for me, I would tellmyself,just shoot thefokker, it ain't a target gun jper say. We might allbe surprised about our barrels, fi we got into them like udid, I choose to not know what ain't huring me.
So ur post was perfect, u ask a question posted some dynamite photos, gives us all sumpin to think about. Ur accuracy u stated was great, so I see no harm no foul, A possable adjustent to the dies and ur good to go.

[CJB]

I think you'll find that if I delve into the technical... thread drift can be extreme, especially when Jocko is involved! *

I'd still send those pics to Kahr and ask their opinion tho...






*I'm not callin ol' J-man a dumazz or such.... he's just got that inquisitive nature about himself

[jocko]

well I was always told that if u don't know, then ask. I could have ask Bawanna and got some halfwitted answer that only people from Washington could come up with. Or I could have ask Tinman and got some weird pictures. or Downtown and got some photos that u normaly see i the back room of Pricisilla's. I went to the Master instead

[Abraxxas]

SAAMI max OAL is 1.275, Im at 1.23 and to get that shoulder back far enough I may have to go below Lee's suggested min OAL of 1.190 for my particular bullet/powder selection. I will reduce to start gr and rework it up :) All part of the fun!

[muggsy]

well I was always told that if u don't know, then ask. I could have ask Bawanna and got some halfwitted answer that only people from Washington could come up with. Or I could have ask Tinman and got some weird pictures. or Downtown and got some photos that u normaly see i the back room of Pricisilla's. I went to the Master instead

When in doubt, ask Muggsy. You know that between you and I we know everything there is to know about guns. In this instance I say to seat the bullets deeper and shoot the fokkers like you stole 'em. I cannot divulge where I obtained this bit of information, but his initials are, Jocko. Works every time it's tried. :)

[jocko]

u need help!! Just sayin

[270win]

Can't wait to hear what Khar has to say. My CW45 is the worst pistol I've ever owned. I sent it back 3 weeks ago and have heard nothing. Fortunately, the local gun shop where I bought it has offered me a full credit on it toward something else when it comes back. I think I'm going to let them have it back.

[scattershot]

Mine is at Kahr now, with the same problem. Inadequate leade in the rifling, and jams all the time. I have had other Kahrs with good results, but the QC has really slipped on this one.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't bought this one.

[gb6491]

Yeah, some of them (like any product) have issues. If yours is one of these I can understand the frustration as mine was one of them. However, I was able to get it working right and it's been one of my favorite pistols in .45 ACP ever since. I think they are worth the effort, but if you don't, let the factory get it working right then sell it and move on.
Regards,
Greg

[O'Dell]

I've had two CW45's and never had a problem with either. Of course, I've never used reloads or steel or aluminum cased ammo, and don't plan to do so. My current one is my primary carry pistol.

[270win]

I've had two CW45's and never had a problem with either. Of course, I've never used reloads or steel or aluminum cased ammo, and don't plan to do so. My current one is my primary carry pistol.

You must live relatively close to me, I'm in the Dacula area.

I never used reloads, but I did use white box ball ammo and Atlanta Arms target ammo and several various name brands of defense ammo.

[Abraxxas]

Here's the update so far, havent had time to sit down and share lately.

My email was responded to within a day or two, I sent it on the weekend. They appologized for any inconvenience I've had with my CW chambering certain types of ammo and said that they would like to inspect my gun at the factory and requested some of my info to setup a return authorization.

So I think the response was timely and fair, I just got the gun recently though and Im not quite ready to give it up for weeks at a time yet lol. So I wont be sending it in for a little while more as Im enjoying shooting it too much. I will update when I do and what the outcome is.

[gkstemple]

Given the current availability of components and ammo, I'd likely ship it back to Kahr sooner rather than later. Never know how soon you may have ONLY factory stuff that it won't chamber left in your ammo locker - and seating factory ammo deeper is not always a good idea.

[270win]

They've had mine for a month now. They will not return either my or my local gun shops emails or messages...the shop is considering dropping the Khar line.

[scattershot]

I got my CW45 back from Kahr the other day, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but it hand cycles fine. They indicated that they re-cut the chamber and it tested out OK at the factory. We'll know for sure if it ever quits snowing around here.

[270win]

I got my CW45 back from Kahr the other day, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but it hand cycles fine. They indicated that they re-cut the chamber and it tested out OK at the factory. We'll know for sure if it ever quits snowing around here.

How long did it take them to get it back to you?

[scattershot]

Right at two weeks. They were very helpful, by the way.

[270win]

That's good to hear, so far it's been four weeks. Maybe my problem is different. But I haven't heard anything back from them in spite of numerous attempts. Glad your experience was better.

[Colocg]

if u tell kah rthe issue is with reloads. they are not gonna give u any good answer.The lead in/freebore might look wrong but I see no rea issues with it to effect anything other than it might not work good with round with to long of anOAL.

actualy kahrs are not ammo sensistive by any means.. Handloads are a whole different ball game but hard to blame the gun for that..

I definitely agree with Jocko on this issue with reloads. I made the mistake of asking Kahr, if the CM9 barrel would work in my PM9 so I could shoot cast bullet reloads.
The response I received back from Kahr was " Kahr did not manufacture any barrels suitable for reloads." :confused:

Abraxxas, I think you are on the right track reducing your OAL. Cartridge oal is always bullet and gun specific. Always!


Charlie