New CM40 shoots low

[scosgt]

Hello group.
I just got a new CM40.
In the first 150 rounds, had two small glitches...
One PSL (no, I did NOT hit it with my thumb. Small hands, thumb does not even reach). WWB 180 GR FMJ.
One failure to load the top round in the mag, pulled back the slide and loaded right up.
No actual issues firing, other than the one PSL. Eats 135 GR Ranger and 180 GR Winchester Bonded JHP like candy.

However, consistently shoots around 3" low at 5 yards. All ammo, same results. Shot good groups, and the rounds were NOT low and left, they were centered but low. I had to aim way high to hit the center of the target.

Anyone have any ideas? I don't think they make any other sights for this gun, so a swap is not in order. I will go to the range again and bench it, just to make sure the longer trigger pull (than my Glocks) is not the problem.

But other than aim really high, any other ideas? Anyone else seen this on a CM40?

[wyntrout]

I shoot low, too, and just adjust aiming point with each shot, utilizing more of the target. I shoot quickly without fussing over sight alignment for every shot... pointing... more or less, I do try to correct my trigger pull on the fly, too, with varying results. I was having trouble transitioning between 3" circles on a sheet of paper. On my last range trip I took a 20" by 20" sheet of cardboard with three 5 1/8" circles. I got down to my last 5 rounds before I remembered the circles target. I only had 5 rounds left but I put all in the circles in about 3 seconds at 7 yards.

Eureka! I just needed larger targets. Nobody shoots pistols at 3" steel plates... well, maybe some do, but they've probably mastered that. I'm still trying to adjust for my aged eyes and defensive shooting... not tiny groups!:rolleyes:

Anyhow, here's some info if you haven't seen it, yet!

Welcome to the Kahrtalk forum supported by Kahr Arms.
Here are a few essential links and things to do BEFORE you take your new pistol to the range, and ESPECIALLY BEFORE taking it apart and trying to re-assemble it! The Kahr is a different design… 6-7 unique patents cover the Kahrs. I’m not trying to imply that you don’t know anything about guns, but many don’t know anything about the Kahrs and some of the things you can do to damage or cause malfunctions of your new, or new-to-you Kahr pistol.
First, if you don’t have a manual, yet, or one didn’t come with your pistol, you can download the pdf file here:
http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf
Impatient? Watch one of these videos FIRST! These videos can point out possible problem areas and emphasize correct procedures!
Take down and re-assembly videos:
T, TP, CW, P, & PM/CM Series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=G2cZgVg_SwA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G2cZgVg_SwA)
MK series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...mSCnIOaUk#t=0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zXmSCnIOaUk#t=0s)
K series:
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9-Elite.asp
There are many links on fixing problems listed in several places… under the New Member or Kahr Tech sub-forums.
A very handy one is the Kahr Lube Diagram:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14750
Many of your questions can be answered in these areas and you can learn how your Kahr works and not damage it with improper handling.
Frequently asked questions: http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp?

There are many helpful members here most of the time who might be able to help you, but as anywhere, there are many opinions and not all are correct. Be mindful of this before doing anything drastic to modify your pistol!


Wynn:)
Aka wyntrout

[getsome]

Hello scosgt and welcome to Kahrtalk...I have a PM40 I bought used and so far it shoots anything through it without any problems....I don't shoot it all that great but from a bench it shoots close to POA...Let a couple of other good shooters try yours and see if they have the same issues with low impact and if so contact Kahr to see if they will take it back on their dime for a look see...Perhaps it has a barrel or slide issue they can correct for you...There was another thread a while back about the same thing and it turned out to be a pistol problem and not a shooter issue so it does happen....Good luck with yours and let us know how it turns out....:yo:

[jocko]

get some snap capps about a half dozen and throw them in with 30 rounds and let anutter person load ur magazines for u, so u don't know if any ar ein there or not. That will show ur shooting ills real fast. I seriously doubt if it is thegun. Why wyn and others are saying is trrue. 98% will shoot low withy a kahr, we hardly ever read of a shooter complaining he is shooting high. That in itself should tell u sumpin. More rounds down range to will get u far more used to this gun. It ain't a glock, the trigger systems are totally different. Kahrs take sime to master as the looooong trigger is ur only safety. Sight picture is different for all shooters. I willsay what wyn is telling u, just see more of the front sight and it will be fine.

Basically IMO u just need to shoot more to get accustomed to your kahr. The two small glitchs that u mentioned tome are just that "glitchs". A nutter reason why kahr wants a shooter togive the gun a 200 rounds down range, as it seems things just seem to go away by thyen. The gun will get smoother as u shoot more rounds to..

[getsome]

What Jocko says about snap caps is a great idea to see if it's the shooter anticipating recoil, may be all it is....I find I can shoot mine better using more trigger finger up to the first joint like revolver shooters do and get a very firm grip with both hands and I find it easier to hit closer to what I'm aiming at more consistantly...

If after a couple other shooters try it and all are hitting low but centered you could take a file to the front sight and since it's plastic you can take off enough easily to raise the POA up 3" with just a few file strokes just go slow and don't take off too much or for another idea, new front night sights are available from Kahr and easily installed by the owner for the CM pistols which might fix the aiming problem and give you a new front night sight at the same time....Good luck and keep shooting, the more rounds you put through it the better it will shoot and those little glitches you are seeing wih FTF and PSL will almost certainly take care of themselves as the pistol wears in....

[scosgt]

I appreciate the ideas about snap caps, however I previously owned an MK9 and it shot dead on, so I doubt it is the shooter.
I did call Kahr, and they stated that there can be a mechanical problem and they would take it back.

So the next step for me is another range trip to shoot off the bench and see if that matters.

I don't see where Kahr offers night sights for this gun, Maybe I am mistaken, but on the phone the tech rep (Ian) stated there are no sight options.

The "recoil" from a .40 does not bother me at all. The G27 and G23 are my best shooting guns, bar none.

And of course, in the beginning it is easy to "snap" a Kahr, since there is no trigger reset and it is a long pull. However, I think I had made it pretty clear in the first post that I am an experienced shooter, to the tune of several rounds per year for the last 40 years, and it appears that the Kahr shoots around 3" low at 5 yards. Which is just way too low.

FWIW I was also shooting a Colt Agent airweight .38, and put just about everything into the bull in the same target. Kahr trigger pull is better than a revolver, at least to me.

[Glock23]

I don't see where Kahr offers night sights for this gun, Maybe I am mistaken, but on the phone the tech rep (Ian) stated there are no sight options.

http://www.kahr.com/Sights/Kahr-CWCM-Trijicon-Night-Sights.asp

They are currently out of stock, but as of 2/12 Nathan said they expect new stock "in a few weeks."

That being said, I've got a set on back order as of 2/12. :sly:

--Bionic - Tapatalk 2--

[scosgt]

http://www.kahr.com/Sights/Kahr-CWCM-Trijicon-Night-Sights.asp

They are currently out of stock, but as of 2/12 Nathan said they expect new stock "in a few weeks."

That being said, I've got a set on back order as of 2/12. :sly:

--Bionic - Tapatalk 2--

That front sight is staked, so I assume you have to knock it out? Woder if Kahr needs to install them or a smith can do it?

[jocko]

I appreciate the ideas about snap caps, however I previously owned an MK9 and it shot dead on, so I doubt it is the shooter.
I did call Kahr, and they stated that there can be a mechanical problem and they would take it back.

So the next step for me is another range trip to shoot off the bench and see if that matters.

I don't see where Kahr offers night sights for this gun, Maybe I am mistaken, but on the phone the tech rep (Ian) stated there are no sight options.

The "recoil" from a .40 does not bother me at all. The G27 and G23 are my best shooting guns, bar none.

And of course, in the beginning it is easy to "snap" a Kahr, since there is no trigger reset and it is a long pull. However, I think I had made it pretty clear in the first post that I am an experienced shooter, to the tune of several rounds per year for the last 40 years, and it appears that the Kahr shoots around 3" low at 5 yards. Which is just way too low.

FWIW I was also shooting a Colt Agent airweight .38, and put just about everything into the bull in the same target. Kahr trigger pull is better than a revolver, at least to me.

ur right, no way it can be the shooter. My error:Amflag2:

[Charlie98]

I appreciate the ideas about snap caps, however I previously owned an MK9 and it shot dead on, so I doubt it is the shooter.
I did call Kahr, and they stated that there can be a mechanical problem and they would take it back....

...However, I think I had made it pretty clear in the first post that I am an experienced shooter, to the tune of several rounds per year for the last 40 years, and it appears that the Kahr shoots around 3" low at 5 yards. Which is just way too low.

Although there is something to adjusting to a new pistol (I just got a CM9... coming from a CW9... so same thing...) the concern over the pistol shooting low is valid. I had the same problem between 2 CW9's... one shot POA, the other almost 8" low at 25-30'. I fooled around swapping barrels and slides between the two but all I wound up with was 2 pistols with mediocre accuracy... so I really believe it was a mechanical shortcoming in the low shooter.

I'm having the very same problem with my new CM9... it's 100% in function, it just shoots low. There is no way I would take it to qualify for my CHL because we shoot out to 45' and I would have to aim at the targets head to put them in the center.

Continue to work with the pistol, but if you continue to shoot low with it (and if others do as well,) it's time for a trip back to Kahr.

[getsome]

Hi scosgt, To answer your question about the front sight....The stock CW CM sights are plastic and to replace them all you need to do is to break off the original by twisting with some pliers then knock out the post...The replacement night sight is metal and has a threaded post that you screw in with a flat head machine screw with some locktite on the threads and tighten up real good from the under side of the slide so that the screw head is flush and doesn't rub...They are designed to be a do it yourself project just don't leave off the locktite.....

When the sights were first offered they were very popular and Kahr ran out of stock pretty quick...If they are still on back order check with Trijicon or Dawson Precision directly by phone call as their web sights may not show them...Both companies offer sights for Kahr pistols and will install them for you and can even mill cut slots in your slide if you want to go to the PM style adjustable front sights....Many are waiting for Trijicon to offer the HD front sights for a Kahr which are very much like the "Big Dot" type high visibility sights....I have them on my S&W M&P 40 and love them, best aftermarket thing I have ever bought for a handgun....I still think since your pistol is shooting only slightly low but is on center the best quick, dirty and cheap fix for it would be to file down the front sight until it hits POA, shouldn't take much materal removal and would be a very easy fix to your problem....Good luck with it...

[scosgt]

Since it is a dot on dot system, I don't think filing will be the cure.
I think the rear sight requires a good pusher. I am told the cheap Glock sight pushers won't work. So maybe the sight replacement becomes expensive.

[jocko]

brownells sells a suepr pusher for alittle over $100 that will do it fine and most any thger semi also. Kahrs sights are a ***** to move, most of them anyhow. I couldnever movemine with a brass punch,. YMMV

[getsome]

Yea if you decide to replace the rears for a 2 dot night sight then it's best to mail it off to Kahr, Trijicon, Meprolight or whoever you choose...The kahr dovetail sights are really tight and hard to deal with without the proper tool to do it right...It is possible but you run the risk of bogering up your slide so if it were me I would definitely let someone else do it and the charge really isn't a deal killer either...For a $175.00 or so investment you will have night sights and a gun that wil shoot POA...

Other posibility is to ship it back to Kahr for free and see if a slide or barrel replacement will fix it for you...Worst case is they don't find anything wrong and you are without your gun for 2-3 weeks but they may just be able to cure it without you spending a dime...

[wyntrout]

I'm not a fan of the dot the "i" or post sights. The dot itself is for quick alignment but "fine" sighting still requires aligning the tops of the front and rear posts... or whatever picture it takes for you to adjust to your pistol, whether it be POA=POI at 6 or 12 o'clock, or center of target. That's where I start "pointing" because lining up sights in CQ gun fighting ain't gonna happen!

Wynn:)

[jocko]

UR PHOTO WYN IS WHAT WOULD BE THE OPTIMUM THING T HAPPEN IN A GUN FIGHT, BUT AS U know that ain't gnna happen. If one thinks he is gonna line all 3 thing sup before he shoots in a SHTF situation, IMO he might be dead already. A good POA shooter can be very deadly at 10 yards and much faster thanb tryng to alighn 3 things at one time. I guess alot depends what a shooter want sout of these little pistol my thoughts are if u train at the range constantly in aligning up those sights etc, that more than likely u might carry it over into a real SHTF scenario and then IMO u have wasted some good defense time, for in real life it just ain't gonna happen that way..

[scosgt]

I'm not a fan of the dot the "i" or post sights. The dot itself is for quick alignment but "fine" sighting still requires aligning the tops of the front and rear posts... or whatever picture it takes for you to adjust to your pistol, whether it be POA=POI at 6 or 12 o'clock, or center of target. That's where I start "pointing" because lining up sights in CQ gun fighting ain't gonna happen!

Wynn:)

You are absolutely correct.
BUT, when breaking in a gun, it is important that the gun shoots POA when carefully lining up the sights.
If it does not, it won't shoot POA no matter how you aim it.

[scosgt]

So I just got back from the range. First the "bad" news:
Magazine follower is trashed! Common problem, I know. Will call Kahr Monday for replacement.
Had two PSL with range ammo - 165GR and 180GR FMJ flat point. NONE with 135GR Ranger or 180 GR Winchester Bonded I think it is the bullet shape, it hits the slide stop lever inside on the way up. (NO, it is NOT my thumb. Short fingers, thumb does not get there from here in combat grip). Had the same problem with MK-9, could never cure it, gave up. But Kahr advised it is due to the lack of space inside for the bullets on the way up.
Anyway, I will carry Ranger SXT 135 Gr JHP, they have a slightly narrower profile and look like the clearance is good. I can see the rounds hitting when I put in a mag of FMJ, so the PSL is not really shocking. Although no problems at all with the Bonded JHP, I will err on the side of caution and carry the 135 gr. Not too worried about bullet performance, it is after all a .40 pocket pistol.

Now the REAL news:

At 3 yards, I was able to put a full mag into the red using a Dirty Bird target. When I moved out to 5 and then 7 yards I got some vertical stringing. Since I know the bullets don't drop 3 inches in 6 feet, I must have most of the blame!!

It does shoot consistently low, and the sights suck. I may black out the dots and shave the top of the front sight. That will bring the point of aim up and mostly cure it.

At one point, at 5 yards, I aimed for the "7" on the target. The first two rounds hit about 1/2" to the right of the "7", touching each other. The next 3 were strung down 1,2 and 3 inches. So I'll blame the shooter. I don't understand why this gun is so hard to shoot: I had the MK9 and it was a tack driver (when it worked). The recoil does not bother me at all. I notice dry firing that no matter how I rest the gun when the striker releases the front sight drops just a bit. Dang, I should be able to do better. And practice is going to cost me a lot of mag followers!

Just to compare, I pulled out my Glock 30/36 hybrid (which is now know officially as the G30s .45) and put 10 rounds dead center at 7 yards rapid fire.

So I can shoot, but this gun is a bit perplexing.

But I suppose as a backup/hideaway gun it has its purpose. I can certainly hit a man size target at 7 yards with a .40 round, and I will not be taking any "hostage rescue" head shots with it. F that, I am retired.

[scosgt]

One addendum:

Fiocchi 165 GR flap nose FMJ does NOT feed in this gun. Was able to load from the mag, but every round failed to go into battery, had to pull back the slide and release to get into battery. The CM is somewhat bullet sensitive. Had no failures of that type with Winchester White Box 165 and 180 or any of the JHP I tried.

[jocko]

callkahr ask for Jay tellhimthe rounds are hitting the slide stop lever they will send u a newone, who knows that should eliminatew that issue to. Allthose rounds u mentioned should work with ease. as far as the accuracy thing, it takes time with a kahr, and IMO it ain't gonna shoot like ur glock, as two differenttrigger systems for sure.One is loooong by design, the utter is much shorter by design.I shoot my G19 10Xbetter than my PMJ9 but my G19 is a safequeen my PMJ9 is my 24/7 pocket gun and has been for over 5years. It is super accurate for what I carry it for.

saveur broken follower to and if it does it againI would callkahr and askthem to pick up the gun and send all magazines and broken ffollowers in with the gun.Once is maybe OK Twicve is a PIA 3 times is knot tolerable IMO.

[scosgt]

They actually sent me a new one for my MK9, but it did not help. In fact, they had stated they would send me one that had been worked on by their gunsmith, but the one they sent was absolutely stock. I ruined two of them trying to shave off just enough to avoid the PSL but still have the slide lock on an empty mag. Never got it done. I am going to try again on this gun.