new cm40 follower destroyed

[jascott]

just bought a cm40 yesterday .got home to shoot it,and after two rounds the slide jammed back very tight. took mag out to see what was going on and of coarse there was something rattling inside my mag. and my luck i only have one mag . i purchased this to carry when i dont feel like hauling the g27 around. now i dont feel as i can trust this pistol.

[jocko]

email kahr, attn. Jay state ur case to him. they will send u a new follower no charge. keep the broken parts and if it happens again, email/call kahr and ask the to send a pre paid to pickup thegun and fix it right..

[skeeter7]

Same thing happened to me. Bought the gun yesterday, shot it today, broken follower. Unreal.

[tv_racin_fan]

How exactly did the follower break? What I mean is did it just flat out break in half? Or did the little metal piece break out of the plastic?

The reason I ask is because of the unique feature of a Kahr. See the metal part in the follower is what catches the slide stop and locks the slide back. It seems to me that if someone were to force the slide stop to release the slide with the slide locked, and an empty mag in the well, that one could easily break that metal piece out. On a Kahr the slide stop is near impossible to release the slide on an empty mag, the idea is in time of need this lets you know that the mag you are trying to load a round from is empty. Last thing you want in that sort of situation is to re employ an empty mag which would be very easy to attempt. It would be entirely possible that either a customer or the sales clerk didn't know this and they would attempt to force it to release. A few forces could very easily break out that metal piece. IMHO.

[jocko]

naw not really that is a well enforced area. Never heard of oe ever breakin jin that area due to what ur talking about. I have seen a few in the past where that metal insert actually came loose and caused issues.

IMO the cause of these busted followers is the feed ramp breaking the front portion of the follower, when the slide is retracting after the boom thing and whenthe magazine is now empty and the follower is now at the top of the magazine and is exposed to the feed ramp when the barrel is caming downward. On some of the kahrs, there just is not enough clearance and the feed ramp is just bashng that follower and busting it. Most kahrs have no issues here either but those that do and IMO. like I have stated before. Bust one, replace it and move on, bust two, get concerned. bust 3, damn gun needs to go back. Kahr then does some modfying to the feed ramp to get this clearance. Sumpin the owner should never do himself.

I realize we read more of it lately than we did some months back and it seems to me anyhow it is more prevelant in the 40 cal kahrs more than any other. Again my thoughts only so take it with a grain of sale but there is just such a terrific explosion when that 40 cal goes bang that the clearance in these small frame kahrs on some and not all, is just not enough to let that feed ramp do its wok without busting the followers.

Only way that is gonna get busted is on the very last round to, as long as it is in the magazine tube, it is safe from the feed ramp. IMO it is happening to damn much lately, but what the hell do I know I realize fixes just don't happen over night either and I hope to hell kahr is working on this issue.

I had one bust in my PMJ9 and I have had it over 5 years and over 32K rounds through it, Why did just one break and no more??? beats the hell outta me.

[jascott]

i loaded 5 rds in the mag ,chambered one, shot it twice ,after the second round went off it ejected the case and jammed on top of the 3rd rounds case. (could barely get slide off the top of the round. finally got slide free and chambered third round then released mag to check everything, magwas stuck pretty tight but got it out, looked fine so put it back in and shot last 3 rounds just fine. didnt realize follower damage till got back inside.

[muggsy]

I see a problem begging for a solution. If someone came up with a better mouse trap he could make a fortune right here on this forum. Who is going to design and manufacture a better follower for Kahr Pistols? Do I see any hands?

[jascott]

im actually going to take the follower they send me to my buddy who is a machinist and see if he can make me one. or find a way to reinforce that front lip.

[LorenzoB]

Hey guys! I've been gone for a while and haven't posted anything in months. Super busy with work and family. Anyway, a custom CNC machined follower is on my short list of gun things to make. I did the mag baseplate for my CW9 (still working on refinements for other guns and an alternate design). I did some CW9 guide rods too. I plan to build a store and support Kahr owners with these parts and improvements. I just bought a PM9 and a K9, so more custom parts will be coming down the pike.

[JimC]

just bought a cm40 yesterday .got home to shoot it,and after two rounds the slide jammed back very tight. took mag out to see what was going on and of coarse there was something rattling inside my mag. and my luck i only have one mag . i purchased this to carry when i dont feel like hauling the g27 around. now i dont feel as i can trust this pistol.

My PM9 isn't a .40 but it's back to Kahr for the very same problem and I've been back to my G27 for quite awhile now, I can trust it and the mags.

PM9 Back To Kahr (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17861)

[JimC]

I see a problem begging for a solution. If someone came up with a better mouse trap he could make a fortune right here on this forum. Who is going to design and manufacture a better follower for Kahr Pistols? Do I see any hands?

Kahr might be better off if they used light weight metal for their followers seeing as how the small pistols seem to be hard on plastic.

[jocko]

I see a problem begging for a solution. If someone came up with a better mouse trap he could make a fortune right here on this forum. Who is going to design and manufacture a better follower for Kahr Pistols? Do I see any hands?

if I am right and I could be wrong but if it is the feed ramp crashing into the follower, putting a steel one in to me is not the solution. Ur still gonna get the bashing and certainly then it will lead to something worse happening. If it can bash that steel follower and get away with it, then is it gonna bust out the backof the magazines, which I think at one time we had that happening to. The barrel has to go through its complete cycle and if the feed ramp is bashing throough these plastic followers to get through its cycle, then to put in a steel on is gonna hinder that barrel from completing its full cycle and ur gonna get some other type of issue. More than like then a feed isssue.

Its not IMO a week follower. Nothing is supposed to hit followers PERIOD.

When kahr takes back a gun that is doing this, they are modifying sumpin to allow this clearance. My thoughts are it is the bottom of the feed ramp a tad.
there is more feed ramp there than is actully needed. Just my analysis. YMMV If u got one of the guns doing this, bite the bullet, call kahr insist they pick it up ad let them fix it right. To me making a steel follower is putting a bandage on the solution..:Amflag2: Not much protection if it is sitting inside ones safe. Just sayin

[LorenzoB]

It seems as of late there are more follower issues. Maybe there is something wrong with their injection mold. I had this issue in our business with some plastic parts. We had a mold that made 4 parts at the same time and after a while we were getting some failures (close to 25%). One of the cavities on the mold was messed up, so we stopped using parts from that cavity until we could make a new mold.

[LorenzoB]

It would be good if people who have broken followers to take a photo to document where the break is happening and what the break looks like and maybe it will help us all (and Kahr if they are reading) figure out why this is happening.

[jascott]

i believe it is the same piece on everyones followers which is the front lip ,which when broken exposes the mag spring and also causing the follower to sit wrong angle wise in the mag . its a known isse by kahr ,they just havent taken the time to resolve it.

[jocko]

It seems as of late there are more follower issues. Maybe there is something wrong with their injection mold. I had this issue in our business with some plastic parts. We had a mold that made 4 parts at the same time and after a while we were getting some failures (close to 25%). One of the cavities on the mold was messed up, so we stopped using parts from that cavity until we could make a new mold.

it IMO. the 40 cal kahr polymers are causing this issue far far more than the 9 and 45 combined. Kahr has asked when sending a gun back for the followers and magazines to be included, so again who knows. They are certtainly not gonna tell us what is going on, which is understandable to. We might not like that but most industries are not gonna tell you:Amflag2:

[hardluk1]

This has to revolve around the barrels feed ramp being to close to the mag follower as the pistol starts to cycle a round out. Is there a point with the 45's where this started happening , are older 40's seem to have the problem My 40 is 1 year a 6 weeks old and no contact with the followers.

[jocko]

u got a point a few years bazck we did not hear of this happening, or at least it was so rare of an event that we paid no attetion to it.

[jascott]

i believe you guys are correct about barrel hitting. i keep all my brass and just thought to look and see if there were any marks on them, every case has two rough scratches from front to rim got the calipers out and their basically the same width of the feed ramp.

[jocko]

I am trying to picture what u said and I just cannot picture that or see how that can actually happen. If it sitting in the magazine the bullet has to be exposed to the feed ramp and IMO not the actual casing, and once in the chamber and fired. the feed ramp now has nuttin to do with extraction.

I would certainly stand corrected on this but I am just mystified to see how this could be happening. Maybe I am missing the obvious. any chance of showing us a photo.

My thoughts are this to. Once that casing gets up behind that extractor as the slide is starting to close and actually feed the round in the chamber, I would guess the bottom of the feed ramp would come into play/contact with the brass, as the slide is slammig that round in the chamber being guided by the feed ramp and possably feed ramp marks could be left on the brass casng.this if Iam correct is probably normal.. The feed ramp is what it is, it guides the round into the chamber. :Amflag2:

[jascott]

shoot me an email jocko n ill send you some pictures. = jascott765@gmail.com

[hardluk1]

Has anyone posted some quality photos of broken followers?? Is the ramp breaking or sticking the followers right around the metal area on the followers.

It looks like the bottom left edge of the barrels feed ramp was not gound off to a certain lenght it would hit and break the follower. Inserting an empty mag slowly with the slide back will show how closely the ramp comes to the follower.

Of my 3 kahrs my 2008 cw9 is the closest with only about 18ths gap. That ain't much, about two pieces of quality printer paper. But it has not hit. My 40 is closer to 28ths. Useing some very old feeler gauges. Seems like a couple minutes with a diamond stone on that longest corner of the ramp . I could also be very wrong sence I have not seen one broken. Who has a photos??

[LorenzoB]

I've seen a couple of bad photos that basically show the front leg of the follower snapped off, but that is about it. Better and more photos would certainly help. If the feed ramp is actually hitting the plastic, there should be some kind of mark or damage where it hits. A good photo would show that.

[hardluk1]

I would think it must take a build up of strikes to do the damage so maybe someone will come up with one thats marked or cracked but in pieces.

[jascott]

if anyone wants pics just email me and ill send them. jascott765@gmail.com

[gb6491]

Has anyone posted some quality photos of broken followers?? Is the ramp breaking or sticking the followers right around the metal area on the followers.

It looks like the bottom left edge of the barrels feed ramp was not gound off to a certain lenght it would hit and break the follower. Inserting an empty mag slowly with the slide back will show how closely the ramp comes to the follower.

Of my 3 kahrs my 2008 cw9 is the closest with only about 18ths gap. That ain't much, about two pieces of quality printer paper. But it has not hit. My 40 is closer to 28ths. Useing some very old feeler gauges. Seems like a couple minutes with a diamond stone on that longest corner of the ramp . I could also be very wrong sence I have not seen one broken. Who has a photos??


I've seen a couple of bad photos that basically show the front leg of the follower snapped off, but that is about it. Better and more photos would certainly help. If the feed ramp is actually hitting the plastic, there should be some kind of mark or damage where it hits. A good photo would show that.
LorenzoB is spot on about the front leg being snapped off.
Here's a photo that was posted by David the Gnome on TFL (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5035037&postcount=19):
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7971/brokenmag01.jpg
While there looks to be little or no mark on that follower, the gent (Caver60 on Glock Talk) that came up with the fix for the feed ramp stated: "But I'd stick a new follower in and after firing a magazine of ammo there would be a big scar where the feed ramp was striking the follower. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1353704)"
I had linked to some other of his info back in 2010, but that info is no longer available on GT. However, there are some more photos of broken followers available on that thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1778).

I would think it most take a build up of strikes to do the damage so maybe someone will come up with one thats marked or cracked but in pieces.
From what I've gathered, it appears to me that the follower can break with a single hit or from repeated strikes (I've broken that leg off and, though the circumstances don't really apply to this discussion, neither was significantly marked).

Regards,
Greg

[hardluk1]

gb In that photo there looks to be a strike mark, rolled edge with dimple, just above the metal piece on the follower on the radius. If so that could only be made with one round still in the mag.

[hardluk1]

jascott How about posting those photos for all to see.

[jascott]

i would post them but not sure how.

[JFootin]

You can post pictures from Photobucket. The way I post pics is upload them to Photobucket, click on the image, select the Direct Link on the right, come over here to the Post Edit Window, select the Picture Icon (http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/John_England/Misc/PictureIcon.jpg), paste the link in there and hit Enter. If I am pulling a picture from some other website, I Right Click it and select Copy Image Location, then post the same way.

[jascott]

sounds like to much work. ill just wait till i recieve my new followers and put up a video on youtube on my page showing how many shots it takes to break the new one and watch the gun as its shooting to see if there is any clear reason of why it was jaming on me.

[LorenzoB]

sounds like to much work. ill just wait till i recieve my new followers and put up a video on youtube on my page showing how many shots it takes to break the new one and watch the gun as its shooting to see if there is any clear reason of why it was jaming on me.

I'll post them for you tomorrow. You already emailed me some photos. Just email me more if you have them.

[TucsonMTB]

sounds like to much work. ill just wait till i recieve my new followers and put up a video on youtube on my page showing how many shots it takes to break the new one and watch the gun as its shooting to see if there is any clear reason of why it was jaming on me.
Great idea! Oh, and, please send me a link to your YouTube even if you do not post it here. Thanks!

Both of my PM40's (same gun mechanically as your CM40) broke several magazine followers (all cheerfully replaced by Kahr, thank you) before I finally got tired of it and used a rubber abrasive wheel on the ends of both ramps. Very little material was removed, but it solved the issue for me.

Looking at my broken off skirt pieces, they seem to be made from hard, durable plastic. I can see no marks at all on mine (collected from inside the magazine after they broke off), but there is no doubt in my mind that the ramps were knocking them off . . . because it stopped happening after I created a little extra clearance. ;)

Old guys like me are not always patient enough to send pistols in and let Kahr do the work, but I am certain Kahr will cheerfully fix your ramp clearance for you.

Best of luck!

[jascott]

Great idea! Oh, and, please send me a link to your YouTube even if you do not post it here. Thanks!

Both of my PM40's (same gun mechanically as your CM40) broke several magazine followers (all cheerfully replaced by Kahr, thank you) before I finally got tired of it and used a rubber abrasive wheel on the ends of both ramps. Very little material was removed, but it solved the issue for me.

Looking at my broken off skirt pieces, they seem to be made from hard, durable plastic. I can see no marks at all on mine (collected from inside the magazine after they broke off), but there is no doubt in my mind that the ramps were knocking them off . . . because it stopped happening after I created a little extra clearance. ;)

Old guys like me are not always patient enough to send pistols in and let Kahr do the work, but I am certain Kahr will cheerfully fix your ramp clearance for you.

Best of luck!
my youtube page is youtube.com/triggerjunkie08
kahr sent out the followers yesterday so as soon as i get them there will be a video up. i want people to see what the pistol is doing.

[LorenzoB]

jascott emailed me these two photos showing his broken follower. I zoomed in a bit and brightened them up so we could see the break.

7862

7864

7863

[jocko]

if that isn't a feed ramp hitting that area which is IMO very beefy even,I will glad kiss kahrs ass..

excellent photo work by the way

[hardluk1]

The feed ramp is hitting these followers twice. Once on the radius above the metal pin with one round still in the mag then on the lower part of the follow when the last round is fired

It should be easy to see what pistol will do this by locking the slide back and slideing a mag in slowly to see if it touchs the ramp with one case only in the mag while pressing the barrel back firmly. There is a strike mark in post 26 on the top radius'd area of the follower.

[jascott]

this is just bumming me out . havent been able to shoot the pistol because of the follower, now waiting on new follower just for the pistol to break in with the first full mag then send away to the company. nothin like going straight home with new gun and breaking it in with 300 rds. got 5rds down, only a couples months and 295rds to go :(

[LorenzoB]

This really is a bummer, but you are going to love this pistol once this is ironed out! My CW9 always makes me happy when I shoot it!

[LorenzoB]

The feed ramp is hitting these followers twice. Once on the radius above the metal pin with one round still in the mag then on the lower part of the follow when the last round is fired...

That is exactly what I was thinking when I was editing the photos.

[jascott]

That is exactly what I was thinking when I was editing the photos.

i found something very interesting!!! if i send you a couple more pictures could you post them?

[jascott]

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/jascott765/DSC03394_zpsfcd05358.jpg

[jascott]

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/jascott765/DSC03392_zps6b10de0f.jpg

[jascott]

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/jascott765/DSC03397_zpse424050b.jpg

[jascott]

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/jascott765/DSC03396_zps7d1fe606.jpg

[Harrylee]

In all interest these followers are not designed right, I’m not sure of the material that these are made of, but it looks like a shear point in the picture. The quality has to step up, the tolerance has to be better the feed ramp is wrong. Don’t get me wrong I like the gun (I have the CM9) but the same issues always to come up with breaking or feeding problems. You can have a good gun design but if the magazine is crap then the does not function. So with all the design capabilities that kahr have why don’t they work on this issue. I would really like to see someone like Wilson come in and start making mags for kahr ,the mags wilson puts out are the best going, zero problems with any 1911 mags. It is a shame that you have to make the gun function with problems and your work and time. Just doesn’t seem right to me. I’m getting a little frustrated too, I’m going to make my own follower to make things work the way they should. It will not be easy but if this works I will be sure to tell all of you. That’s my two cents worth

[jascott]

ok jocko this one is for you. as i mentioned before when i first shot the gun i loaded 5 rnds into the mag shot 2 rnds fine. ejected 2nd casing and slide jammed on top of third case. if you look at the pics i posted you will see when the mag has three rounds in it the follower is at the mag latch spot. what i believe is wrong is the mag release part inside the frame sticks to far into the mag and catches the front follower lip snapping it off. i believe the reason the slide jamed on top of the third rnd is because when the mag release caught the follower and broke the lip off it slowed the mag spring down just long enough for the slide to return before the round was back in position..... i may be wrong but just picture that and let me know what you think.

[LorenzoB]

I looked at my mag followers and noticed a definite scribe mark on the side where the mag catch goes through the mag tube. The follower is dragging past the mag catch when the follower moves to 4 rounds left. And then the front leg of the follower moves to that spot when there are 3 rounds left. Those numbers are for 9mm.
I took a photo with my macro lens that I hope to post tomorrow if I can find a minute.

[LorenzoB]

Ok, so here are the photos that show that follower is dragging past the mag catch. Keep in mind that the macro photos make the scratches look much bigger than they really are. And my CW9 has never had an issue, so I'm not worried about these scratches, but it might explain why some guns have more feed issues than others.

7874

7875

7876

[jocko]

the mag catch is not what isw breaking the followers though. I have posted before in the kahr tech secion how to check for a grabbing mag rlease button. It is an easy fix, very easy if u just follow my fixes listed. That follower ust glide up ad down with no restriction or it will upset the cyclyiong action of ht gun. It willhappen around 2/3 in the 9's and probalby the smae in the 40's. I think though we are taling about two different issues with the busted followers, that is IMO feed ramp caused. My point here also is that some mag release buttons will grab more than others. Like orenzo posed,his is barely hitting the follower, and so he feels he is OK, that is a shooter decison. I myself want total free play whent hat follower slides pas that release button. It is easy achieved. Most kahrs do not have this issue but in my opinion when one reports that at round 2/3 it nose dives that tellsme u couldhave a follower grabbing the release button. We really have no clue eiter when the gun is loaded and the sring is compressed what all that polymer follower is doing in tha ttube either. It just should not e grabbing period, Now whether that is ones issues is maybe iffy for some but IMO, it is sumpin that a shooter shold want to eliminate as a possability to.

It is an easy pu$$y fix.

My poit here is also, some magrelease will grab more than others. some might makr

[jascott]

i somewhat tested the feed ramp theory last night and im not so sure that is it. i painted some pullets with marker and cycled them through the gun looking for any paint missing or bothered and the only thing hitting the bullets is my slide lock.

[hardluk1]

I don't believe the ramp should can touch a most bullets when cycling unless a wide profile tip and have it pushed forword in the mag. What happens when the slide is locked back some extra pressure is placed on the barrel and the empty mag is then slid in slowly till the follwer pass's by the feed ramp. If your slide lock is rubbing bullets sound like it might need some filing back?

[DooSPX]

I have been lucky with my CM40, after a few hundred rounds, I have had no issues, not even a hiccup. But, before I shot it, I followed the sticky and stripped it down and checked clearances before ever even loading the mag.

I also believe that the .40 S&W small sub compact guns have more issues than 9mm or .45 ACP due to the power of the rounds. A .40 is loaded to 35,000 psi just like the 9mm but MUCH heaver rounds (for the most part) and the .45 is loaded at 21,000. That is A LOT of bang at that pressure in such a small polymer weapons. I have seen shield .40's and XDSC .40 have more issues than the 9mm siblings. But saying that, I love the .40 round, its my choice in carry rounds.