+P benefit.....3.5 barrel?

[hangdog]

Hey everyone,
Please be so kind as to view and respond to this post in the Reloading forum...or not. :+)

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18186

thanks,
hangdog

[gmcjetpilot]

Hey everyone,
Please be so kind as to view and respond to this post in the Reloading forum...or not. :+)
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18186
thanks, hangdog

Sounds like a bunch of bull, guys trying to justify they don't use, don't
have, can't find to buy +P ammo. There is no doubt a little more +P
means more energy. The recoil is negligibly greater. I found some +P
ammo as shown L-R Hornady Critical Duty 135Gr, CCI Speer Gold Dot
124Gr, Federal HST 124Gr. I will admit any of these or premium SD (self
defense ammo) will do, JHP of course. At least two of these rounds have
been tested by FBI and widely used by law enforcement both US and
outside. Talk of short barrel is irrelevant, you can't change it. All things
equal, +P version of Crit-D, GD or HST, has more energy, higher speed.
It is not that short barrel does not work with +P, it actually compensates
for it. However longer barrel is going to get more out of the ammo, P or
+P. Look at the ballistic test, penetration, retained weight, expansion and
accuracy.... I shoot better with my +P ammo than RN reloads.

As far as FLASH all these premium rounds advertise low flash powder.
That said the magic is in the bullet design, technology & manufacturing. It
is more expensive. So given same bullet and P vs +P it is not much
difference, but +P does have a bit more energy, say 1150 fps vs 1220 fps
muzzle out a 4" barrel, about 12.5% more energy (square of velocity).

You still have to get on target regardless. I got a good deal on this ammo,
average price of $.60 a round. With shipping, Crit-D & GD was $0.77 a
round; the HST was $0.85 a round. Unfortunately I had to buy from
another seller and could not combined shipping. If it was more then that I
wouldn't buy it. Of course this is NOT for target practice. I shoot enough
to assure SD rounds cycle and I'm comfortable shooting it.

Proving I'm not an AMMO snob I've been carrying Remington 115Gr JHP
from Walmart. I decided time to upgrade to big boy ammo. I am still in
the testing phase. I'll let you know. With that said, I am NOT going to
shoot lots of +P through a gun because it is harder on the gun and cost
too much. I reload my own 9mm for about $.20 a round. Not great cost
per round, but then I bought all my supplies after the cost went up. SD
rounds at near $1.00 is too much for this cheapskate.

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7950/h2rk.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/5186/xb55.jpg

[gmcjetpilot]

If there is any question about +P here is some data:

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/9031/419s.png

[addictedhealer]

I use Speer +p short barrel. I'm no bullet genius but I have shot ballistics gel and I'm happy with results

[muggsy]

Ballistics gel doesn't wear a pea coat in the Winter and has no bones. Any 9 mm bullet that will penetrate at least 12" and expand by fifty percent it should get the job done reasonably well.

[Barth]

I use Speer +p short barrel. I'm no bullet genius but I have shot ballistics gel and I'm happy with results

Speer's only 9mm Short Barrel round is specifically designed for a 3.5" barrel and is 124 gr +P.
Their outstanding 38 Special Short Barrel 135 gr is +P as well.
IMHO that's not a coincidence.

[Tomac]

All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
I have no problem w/anyone who chooses a quality load that provides sufficient penetration, whether it's std pressure, +p or +P+.
I prefer standard pressure Critical Duty from my short 9mm's as it provides 15" of gel penetration (FBI suggests 12"-18") w/less recoil than +P loads for faster followup shots.
JMHO...
Tomac

[Barth]

All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
I have no problem w/anyone who chooses a quality load that provides sufficient penetration, whether it's std pressure, +p or +P+.
I prefer standard pressure Critical Duty from my short 9mm's as it provides 15" of gen penetration (FBI suggests 12"-18") w/less recoil than +P loads for faster followup shots.
JMHO...
Tomac

Is that 15" of gelatin penetration from a short barrel?
Most FBI protocol testing I've seen standard service barrels are used.
Hornady's own website that advertises 15" gelatin penetration for standard pressure 9mm use a Glock 17 with a 4.5" barrel.

Also, in many FBI tests I've evaluated, like ammunition in standard and +P
pressure often penetrate about the same. Sometimes +P even less.
As like but higher velocity rounds tend to expand better.

Hornady Critical DUTY® - Glock 17 4.5"
9mm LUGERSP 135 gr. Penetration = 15.5" Expansion = .56
9mm LUGER+P 135 gr. Penetration = 14.0" Expansion = .60

I'm most concerned about having sufficient velocity for my HPs to expand completely and reliably from a short barrel.
I'm sure FMJs have great penetration results.

[OldLincoln]

If I recall it right, the +P added about 100fps which I chose to use up in a heavier bullet (147gn) and break even. Remember the important stuff in the COM is past a lot of barriers. I remember one well known gun fight where the defender's bullet stopped 1/2" from the bad guys heart.

[wyntrout]

Check some of the data here. Ballistics by the Inch tests a lot of ammo in TC barrels that are cut down inch by inch with documented velocities. The last cartridge is my favorite carry round the+P 124-grain Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot. They also include some real world pistol tests and velocities.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Wynn:)

[gmcjetpilot]

Ballistics gel doesn't wear a pea coat in the Winter and has no bones. Any 9 mm bullet that will penetrate at least 12" and expand by fifty percent it should get the job done reasonably well.
SEEING THIS (MY DATA) I CONCLUDE IN SHORT
BARREL GUNS, 3", LIKE A KAHR CM9, THEY NOT
ONLY BENEFIT FROM +P, IT IS ALMOST A MUST IF
YOU WANT TO HAVE DECENT VELOCITIES. 115GR
BULLET HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE MARGINAL. TO
GET A 124GR BULLET TO MOVE OUT OF A SHORT
BARREL I RECOMMEND +P ONLY. IF YOU WANT TO
STICK WITH 115GR, STANDARD WILL WORK. OF
COURSE A MISS OR POOR SHOT WITH ANY CALIBER
IS NOT GOING TO STOP AN ATTACK BY SOMEONE
DETERMINE TO HARM YOU.

Handguns are not death rays..... With that said the FBI test and many on
YouTube are through multi layers of denim... Most test are done with a
4" barrel however. As I show below less than a 0.5" difference in the
barrel can make a fairly large difference. From what I saw w/ 0.42"
barrel length difference, which resulted in as much as 9% difference in
velocity, going from a 4" to 3" barrel you lose as much as 15%-20%.
Let's assume 20% difference. Velocity of a 1200fps out of a 4" barrel
would be 960fps. Kinetic energy is square of velocity, so that would be
(960/1200)^2 = .64 .... a 34% loss in energy. I want all the energy I
can and so +P is for me. Also 115Gr bullets are tad small, work great but
I'd rather 124Gr and +P.

Of course penetration is not just velocity it is part in bullet design, and
any of the high quality "law enforcement" or personal defense JHP
bonded or banded rounds will likely meet or exceed the FBI tests for
penetration like the (Fed HST or Speer Gold Dot), both of which are in
use with LEO's and military in the USA and other countries.

I just bought a Chronograph and did my first outdoor session with it. I
am new to it, but I can tell you my Glock 26 with 3.42" barrel had faster
velocities than the 3" barrel Kahr CM9. I will post the results in another
thread.

HOWEVER FROM MY TEST, the extra 0.42" Glock barrel length resulted in
2% to 8% faster velocity. There was less velocity difference, say 2%-3%
with the higher power +P Fed HST and Speer Gold Dot rounds than the
standard or low pressure reloads (mine and store bough). I don't have a
lot of data, but I can conclude that +P does help a short barrel keep
decent velocities even with bigger bullets. My 115Gr reloads were trucking
along at 1050-1090 fps and say the 124Gr Speers Gold Dot +P was doing
1160fps out of the Glock and even 1113fps out of the short barrel Kahr
CM9..... Bigger 124Gr bonded JHP going faster than FMJ 115Gr, big
difference in energy.

[chrish]

Energy, fps, etc are all fine mathematical calculations/comparisons to consider when comparing the exact same round in +P and standard velocity. Then an only then do those numbers mean jack. Bullet design in more modern ammo HAS TO BE CONSIDERED before you choose a round. More energy on target and more speed doesn't necessarily translate to a more effective round. There are more variables at play here. Bullet design, barrier penetration, expansion, consistency. Then there are the subjective measures like recoil, getting back on target, etc. Last, doesn't matter how well the round performs if your particular firearm won't feed it for poop. There is no correct answer here.

[gmcjetpilot]

Energy, fps, etc are all fine mathematical calculations/comparisons to consider when comparing the exact same round in +P and standard velocity. Then an only then do those numbers mean jack. Bullet design in more modern ammo HAS TO BE CONSIDERED before you choose a round. More energy on target and more speed doesn't necessarily translate to a more effective round. There are more variables at play here. Bullet design, barrier penetration, expansion, consistency. Then there are the subjective measures like recoil, getting back on target, etc. Last, doesn't matter how well the round performs if your particular firearm won't feed it for poop. There is no correct answer here.


So right, true, but if you choose well known brands and known
products from those brands, for self defense or law enforcement,
you know the bullet design is good. The fact Federal HST and CCI Speer
Gold Dots are known and in use by Law enforcement agencies and
Government, tells me it has been tested and is good....

The Hornady Critical Duty I bought to compare with these two above
rounds, was a bit of a disappointment, not only in speed but expansion.
HOWEVER, I am still collecting data, and my test using water bottles full
of water was not very scientific. Hornady Critical Duty showed really
great penetration and little expansion. I was not using ballistic gel test
like some ambitious folks on YouTube. One YouTube video that is well
done, really sings the Critical Duty praises, and his test showed it. The
FBI criteria is it expands 1.5 times original diameter and retains near it's
original weight.

The plastic plug in the Hornady Critical Duty may be great for going
through thick clothes or some barrier before expanding. If you read the
advertisement on Hornady's web sight it sounds like the greatest
"banded" bullet ever made. I am not sold yet, but I will shoot it some
more. Like any expanding JHP type bullet, if the velocity is not high
enough it will not work like it was designed. As has been known for
1000's of years, from my test, you definitely see the correlation between
barrel length and velocities.

I was very impressed with the Speer Gold Dot. The Hornady bullet being
135Gr, even +P, might not get up to proper velocities out of 3" barrels?

[jocko]

criticalduty IMO copies the corbon power ball, which has been around for awhile. One nice thing about both and I think the powerballeven does betteris they feed like a fmj round. asu know if it won't feed, then it isn't worth a cold bottle of piss. Not sure the BG will notice mucyh difference in any good defense round but first of all it hasto exit the barrel.

To many good rounds out there and ur logic of what most leo's and depts use should be a great guide to most all shooters.I never paid much attention to theis 3" or 3.5" or 4" bbl test, It is whatit is, not like ur gonna shott a BG every day, so find a good round that shoot totally reliable and is accuratge for your gun and screw the rest of the stuff. 99.9955% of all of us is never gonna have tofind out what kind of penetration we got on a BG either
There are just a ton of great defense rounds on the market, some might be over hyped but most deliver as stated to..

We have some good members here who have done some nice tests so I choose not to knock their work, but I choose to make my own decision to...

[chrish]

Yea, the Critical Duty is a weird one right now. It's what I'm carrying these days, but it is definitely not the biggest expander out there. My choice of it over my previously carried PDX1 147gr is due to the barrier tests I've seen and the recoil (or lack thereof rather) that I've found shooting the round. Loved my PDX1 and I had no concern that it's weight would not get the job done, but after feeling how soft the Critical Duty shot, had to transition to it. That round in my Kahrs is just flat out dreamy to shoot.

I'm in that camp you mentioned where choosing most ANY of the modern JHP rounds from the major players is fine and should be adequate. But plenty of them, looking at the various YouTube gelatin tests that folks have performed w/ them, have issues (clogging up and act like a FMJ is the biggest one). The Critical Duty's issue seems to be limited to marginal expansion. But the fact that it penetrates in ANY test 13-16" (that I've seen) and has never clogged where it totally passed thru like a FMJ (that I've seen) makes it a keeper, 1.5x expansion or not. I tend to rely on the good folks on YouTube (like TNOutdoors9) to do my testing for me. It's just cheaper that way. I don't have the ability to produce ballistics gel and get it to the range easily, nor does my range's layout have a place that would allow for gel testing.

My decision was based mostly on the expectation that should I have to fire thru a barrier in my home, the CD bullet will stay it's course and be less likely to change path. All educated guess on my part. I have no intention of finding out the hard way if at all possible. But the tests of that round are pretty impressive with regard to barrier penetration and what the bullet did subsequently in the gel.

I just look less at 'stats' and more at 'tests'.

My biggest concern/gripe w/ the CD has been setback. My carry guns are not my HD guns and don't stay loaded. When I come home, they are unloaded and 'safed' at night. But that means when I go out, a round gets chambered...daily. I'm finding, for whatever reason, that the CD rounds only take a couple of chamberings (in my Kahrs) to see the banding at the base of the bullet disappear into the case. I find this a little troubling since I could chamber a PDX1 for a couple of weeks or more before I'd see any setback occurring. I posted about this in another thread. Anyway, this is only an issue for my Kahrs because of how I chamber the rounds. So no biggy, just a bit more expensive as I retire rounds to the 'range fodder box' more frequently. The flip-side advantage, I get to feed more carry ammo at the range.

[jocko]

might givealittle more pressure but IMO I see no harm no foul with alittle set back. If it bothers u alot, then ur gonna have to make some changes for peace of mind. MY PMJ9 is always fully loaded in my home. No kids so it sits on the mantel at night andis the first thing in my pocket when I walk out the door..

[chrish]

might givealittle more pressure but IMO I see no harm no foul with alittle set back. If it bothers u alot, then ur gonna have to make some changes for peace of mind. MY PMJ9 is always fully loaded in my home. No kids so it sits on the mantel at night andis the first thing in my pocket when I walk out the door..

Nah, wasn't too worried about it from a safety standpoint. I ran across the whole 'setback' concept years and years ago and at the time couldn't find one single instance of someone claiming it had caused them a problem or a hard instance of it being determined to have caused a safety issue or failure of a firearm. So, I called 'old wives tale' on it back then but at the same time erred on the side of 'what if'.

Mostly, it just came up b/c of the CD round and how much it seemed to be setting back in guns I've shot a ton (P9 and TP9) and had never seen before in other ammo. Coupled with the fact that Hornady actually has some 'marketing' info on this round that claims to deal w/ 'setback'.


CANNELURED BULLET WITH CRIMPED CASE ensures no bullet setback during feeding.

Granted, maybe they mean during standard feeding, i.e. ONCE. But dumping a $.75 - $1.00 round at about triple the frequency of my old PDX1 carry round kinda pissed me off at first. But I'm over it.

[Tomac]

I recently did a setback test w/Critical Duty using my SIG P290RS (2.9" bbl). It took 25 chamberings of the same round before I could measure and visually see any setback (appx .01", crimp still within the cannelure).
Tomac

[chrish]

I recently did a setback test w/Critical Duty using my SIG P290RS (2.9" bbl). It took 25 chamberings of the same round before I could measure and visually see any setback (appx .01", crimp still within the cannelure).
Tomac

That's interesting. I'll have to try 25 w/ my CZ P-01 and see what happens. Then do 25 with my TP9. I predict a DRASTIC difference.

[stickbow9]

Check some of the data here. Ballistics by the Inch tests a lot of ammo in TC barrels that are cut down inch by inch with documented velocities. The last cartridge is my favorite carry round the+P 124-grain Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot. They also include some real world pistol tests and velocities.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Wynn:)
+1 on that load. Different burn rates are used for short barrel apps., larger mouth on the hollow point too. I would trust some of these engineered loads in our shorter barrels than just some standard +p loads. Just more physics behind the design.

[Bill K]

criticalduty IMO copies the corbon power ball, which has been around for awhile. One nice thing about both and I think the powerballeven does betteris they feed like a fmj round. asu know if it won't feed, then it isn't worth a cold bottle of piss. Not sure the BG will notice mucyh difference in any good defense round but first of all it hasto exit the barrel.

To many good rounds out there and ur logic of what most leo's and depts use should be a great guide to most all shooters.I never paid much attention to theis 3" or 3.5" or 4" bbl test, It is whatit is, not like ur gonna shott a BG every day, so find a good round that shoot totally reliable and is accuratge for your gun and screw the rest of the stuff. 99.9955% of all of us is never gonna have tofind out what kind of penetration we got on a BG either
There are just a ton of great defense rounds on the market, some might be over hyped but most deliver as stated to..

We have some good members here who have done some nice tests so I choose not to knock their work, but I choose to make my own decision to...

Only if u conider speling, grammer, and punction important; could i hav sad it beter myselve Just sayin.. :)

[muggsy]

It's a numbers game. The only way to know for sure if standard, +P or +P+ is the best is to shoot something living with it. Since Jocko owns a PMJ9 and a herd of goats, I think he's our go to guy. C'mon Jocko, quit shooting the bull, or in your case missing the bull and ventilate a few goats in the name of ballistic science. Curious minds want to know.

[jocko]

ur a sick bastard muggs. Just sayin. I have been into sheep this past year (figureaatively speaking though). My goat herd is down. Lots of serbians around my area and I think they have been rustling my goats.

[muggsy]

The way I see it those Serbians goat rustlers did you a favor. Sheep are much better companions and don't smell nearly as bad as goats except when wet. A herd of sheep is know as a flock and the females are called ewes. That's where they get that old expression, flock ewe.