CM40...Constant F-t-F

[gpalma]

Am using Fiocchi 165gr FMJ and Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo in this weapon and am getting 25% FTF's beyond the break-in period. Have also been using a medium target load (yes, the dreaded handload) using a 165gr plated bullet and a 155gr SWC lead bullet.

Regardless of the ammo above being used, I get FTT's with the offending round being driven straight forward and nosing into the feed ramp at the point where the slide lock is located.

In every case, the slide refuses to lock back after the last round.

Am a little annoyed with the indifference of Kahr customer service and them telling me that if I try enough different types of ammunition, that one of them is eventually going to work. They obviously have not tried to buy 40SW lately and I do not have the excess funds to be buying $30 boxes of ammo as an experiment (when and if I can even find it).

Am about to send this down the road because I most certainly cannot stake my life on it.

[jocko]

have u checked ur magazie follower to see if it could be broke?? Have u looked at the kahrt tech section and hit on the propper prepping thread.there are some tips there to look for that might help u.

ARE U HAving these issue with handloads or with new factory american ammo???.

[rhd04]

A lot of those will break the followers in the magazine. My pm9 broke one and it still worked ok though. Something you could check. And make sure the spring is installed right I heard some came backwards From factory

[scosgt]

If you have a Dremel or an electric drill polish the feed ramp with red or white rouge.
Make certain there is NO oil in the magazines. In a Kahr, oil allows the rounds to move forward resulting in PSL and feed jams. The tighter the round in the mag the better. I have one mag I almost have to fight with the rounds to go in, and it works perfectly.
I suggest, if you can find it, either Winchester 135 JHP or Speer Gold Dot 165 Gr.
Both have a narrow profile and should get past the Slide Lock and go up the ramp. FMJ Flat Nose rounds can be a problem in that gun, mine would not feed Fiocchi FN rounds.

As far as not locking open, check the mag for a broken follower.
Does it lock open if you hand cycle it with an empty mag? If so, you may be limpwristing.

And like the man said, open up the mag and make sure the spring is installed properly and not broken.

[Ikeo74]

Didn't I read that lead bullets are not recommended in the poly barrel? I bet the feed ramp and inside the chamber are lead contaminated. Give the gun a good clean and polish and see if it cures the problem.

[jocko]

Didn't I read that lead bullets are not recommended in the poly barrel? I bet the feed ramp and inside the chamber are lead contaminated. Give the gun a good clean and polish and see if it cures the problem.

its not a poly barrel, but standard rifling. all cm models are standard rifling, :Amflag2:

[kerby9mm]

If it was my CM40 I would make Kahr take it back on their dime to try to make it right. If it is a new gun they should pay shipping.

[gpalma]

The unfortunate part is that there are very few types/brands of ammunition that have been tested in properly calibrated ballistic gel (bare or 4 layers of denim) that will expand and penetrate properly from a 3" barrel. The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel is one of them. This pistol absolutely will not cycle them and it is my greatest concern as I know how that ammo performs. Am going to try the Hornady Critical Defense as a final test before sending this paperweight down the road.

My old G27 w/KKM barrel (40SW) would cycle any of the loads/bullets mentioned at the beginning of this thread without the slightest hiccup whatsoever. Had put at least 4000rds through it without issue. Also have a CM9 that will digest anything fired in it and I mean "a n y t h i n g".

The whole point of this exercise was to go with a unit that had the 40SW caliber, but the weight/size of the CM9 because my CM9 (and those of my friends) had been so ultra-dependable. It seems that all CM models are not created equal.

Have examined the follower and spring...all are good. Feed ramp is highly polished as it came from Kahr. Contours of the slide release seem proper. The slide will lock manually. Much of my shooting is done off the hip at well under 10 feet, so limp-wristing is not the slightest concern as the pistol is braced firmly.

Have tweaked the feed lips on the mag to no avail as that is SOP to get a higher angle on the nose of the top round in the mag. Am beginning to wonder if the mag itself is sitting high enough though. Seems it could actually sit .040" higher without issue and that would help matters because the nose of the bullet is contacting the feed ramp waaay too low. The slide release lever is quite tight and I am going to rectify that situation, not that it will improve feeding.

[scosgt]

Take a look at the extractor. Make sure the rims can slide up into it cleanly. If not, the gun will not feed. Also check the breech face. Needs to be clean and smooth, if not same issue.
Think about how it feeds. Follower on the slide pushes the top round into the ramp and it bounces up into the chamber, it is not a straight in feed.
I have heard of a Kahr having a bad mag catch which allowed the mag to ride too low. That would make a difference.
Of course, if you are using the one mag that came with the gun, you need to try another mag since mags are the root of all evil in automatics.

[jocko]

IMO, u really need to let kahr look at it. a email to kahr , attn Jay willget you a RA#. why send it downthe road, ??Give kar a chancetomake it righ. Not the end of the world when a gun gives issues. That is what a warranty is for, and for me anyhow I would not release a gun that does not work right to anyone or trade itin that way. reverse that situation and think if u would like it...

U have chekced the gun over enough to get a feel of what is right and wrong, so let kahr have it back to do it right. If u bought a new car and it wasnot right, u would let a dealer work with it. The most perfect guns out there can malfunction on the very next squueze of the triggers.. Just my 21 cents on this to. Its ur gun, ..

[wyntrout]

I have a P40 that I bought off the Marketplace here. I had problems with it and still have to watch the slide lock screw getting loose. One of these days I'll remove it and clean the threads on the screw and the polymer frame ones as well. I might even try some Teflon pipe thread blocker. DON'T use any Super/Crazy glue or Loctite-type products. The bond created when "properly" applied is STRONGER than the material and may cause even more problems when you have to replace that spring. ALL of the threadblocker manufacturers say do not use the products on plastics, which is why I'm considering the Teflon PVC pipe thread blocker.

The .40 S&W rounds just seem to shake that screw loose in mine and I don't want to over-torque and strip the plastic threads... Kahr's fix is a new frame!

If the screw gets loose, the slide lock pin can start working its way out and give you FTF and slide lock problems.

I would hope that you read the manual and watched the Kahr take down video that emphasizes the correct procedure for inserting that slide lock pin... the spring can be damaged on either side and can wind up under the actuator, rather than on top of it.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7773&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1361815810

Take down video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G2cZgVg_SwA

The slide lock portion starts around 4:30.

I had to work over my extractor and the breech face a bit to let the cartridge rims slide under the extractor claw. I use a small diamond file and stones and polishing a bit. That cured my failures to chamber fully problems that were causing the rounds to get lodged in the chamber at a 45° angle.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

heh wyn. would nail polish work???

[TucsonMTB]

Take a look at the extractor. Make sure the rims can slide up into it cleanly. If not, the gun will not feed. Also check the breech face. Needs to be clean and smooth, if not same issue.
Think about how it feeds. Follower on the slide pushes the top round into the ramp and it bounces up into the chamber, it is not a straight in feed.
I have heard of a Kahr having a bad mag catch which allowed the mag to ride too low. That would make a difference.
Of course, if you are using the one mag that came with the gun, you need to try another mag since mags are the root of all evil in automatics.
This is good advice.

Edited to add: I post slowly so need to add that Wynn also had to address his feed path across the breech face. He also touched on another area, the slide lock spring, that you should definitely examine.

Also check out Greg's follower modification. It improved feeding reliability in both of my PM40's. http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6943&page=6

Bummer about the ammo situation. I you could find some of this stuff . . .

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/333947000/333947567/pix447188214.jpg

It would feed reliably, for sure. The only place I have seen it lately is on Gunbroker at high prices. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=333947567

If it is at all possible, ask someone else to shoot the pistol. Their experience is not important. What is important is that they are inclined to hang onto the pistol for dear life and have strong hands. Yeah, a rock solid grip and resisting the recoil really makes a difference with the PM/CM40. Insufficient grip and arm force would account for both the feeding and failure to lock back issues. Personal experience here . . . :o

Best of luck!

[wyntrout]

My wife and I don't use nail polish!:D I do keep nail polish remover around as a solvent, but NOT for PLASTIC!

I checked my P40 a few days ago and the danged screw was a tiny bit loose... about 1/8 turn. I think that I need to degrease the threads... screw and the frame. If I have ANY problems with the P40, the first thing I do is unload the pistol, then pop the slide lock out and check that danged screw.

Wynn:)

[jimsea]

Sand your follower and ALL ammo will feed effortlessly.

[wyntrout]

IF everything else is "GO"!

Wynn:)

[fuji1]

I would suggest to check the COL of the ammo if you don't find anything else. I know the Hornady critical duty is 1.250 and works perfectly in my CW40. My reloads were having issues with COLs of 1.30+. These are Penn 165gr tc. I usually load my 40s long for my STI, it won't feed short 40s.

Joe

[gpalma]

Well, the follower broke this afternoon and I did some 1-handed 50' shooting. The mag has the Peirce 3rd finger extension and this CM40 had been hitting about 5-6" high at 50 feet. Well, As I was shooting without the mag now, my group was forming almost directly on point of aim. Sooo, I hauled out the bags and fired a 6 shot string @ 50' to confirm. That 3rd finger extension may be part of my feeding issue. It definitely makes a difference in POI and group dispersion. Now to get another follower...or eight or ten.

http://www.jjmaloneys.com/followerA.jpg
http://www.jjmaloneys.com/followerE.jpg
http://www.jjmaloneys.com/kahr group.jpg

[jocko]

gonna save u some time and headaches. send this photo to kahr, attn Jay, ask them to pick up the gun and fix it right. Its gonna continue to breakfollowers until the feed ramp is moded by kahr. Gett ur done..

[gpalma]

Yeah, only Kahr didn't even want to consider taking the weapon back. Their customer service guy was adamant that I try every brand of ammo on the planet until I found one that worked. It was like talking to a broken record.

[Glock23]

Yeah, only Kahr didn't even want to consider taking the weapon back. Their customer service guy was adamant that I try every brand of ammo on the planet until I found one that worked. It was like talking to a broken record.

So forget about the FTFs for now... email Jay about the followers breaking and see if they'll rework your feed ramp. When Jay approves and has you send it, include a note detailing all your problems with FTF... and they'll check that too.

--Bionic - Tapatalk 2--

[JFootin]

So forget about the FTFs for now... email Jay about the followers breaking and see if they'll rework your feed ramp. When Jay approves and has you send it, include a note detailing all your problems with FTF... and they'll check that too.

--Bionic - Tapatalk 2--

+1. Jay is the guy. There are a couple of real jerks there, but Jay will treat you right.

[gpalma]

He has a message as well as macro photos. We shall see what he says. This last guy really rather ticked me off.

Took a friends new CM9 and fired some 122gr cast boolits through it at the range yesterday using our std load of 3.0/TiteGroup. It put 5 into just shy of 2" from the bags at 50 feet. http://store.midatlanticbullets.com/9mmcustommatchgradebullets.aspx

[gpalma]

I'm liking this Jay fellow....


Good morning. Seeing as the follower is not the only problem, my suggestion
would be to send the firearm in for service. Turnaround time will be 2-3
weeks. Please let me know if this is alright.
sincerely,
Jay
Kahr Customer Service

[JimC]

I'm liking this Jay fellow....

Is he going to send you a pre-paid shipping label via e-mail?

He did for my PM9 w/similar gun/follower problems but stated that this was a one time exception and that shipping was NOT covered by warranty.

3.01.13 response from Jay:

Shipping is not something covered under our warranty. I will make a one time exception. We will need your magazines.
sincerely,
Jay
Kahr Customer Service


Jay is a stand up guy who must be pulling his hair out over the many returns that they have to deal with.

[gpalma]

No such luck...and it must go overnight, which will not be cheap.

[TucsonMTB]

No such luck...and it must go overnight, which will not be cheap.
This might be a good time to ask your dealer to step up to the plate. As an FFL, he can ship it cheaply via US Mails. A medium flat rate Priority Mail box is about eleven bucks. The small, is only about six bucks.

In my experience, even with my own packaging, Priority Mail is surprisingly reasonable in cost.

Hopefully, your dealer is supportive of his customers.

Just a suggestion . . .

[JimC]

No such luck...and it must go overnight, which will not be cheap.

Well that just sucks BIG time! :mad:

I second the recommendation to use your FFL to send it back if he's willing.

However, I found local that one FFL wanted a fee plus the actual shipping costs which might put you back to the high cost of overnight shipping.

[jocko]

No such luck...and it must go overnight, which will not be cheap.

call kahr and ask for jay and talk to him. they can pick the gun up cheaper than u can and maybe you can ask if they will do that then u will just pay them the charges instead of paying such a high amount to over night. I would give that a try as I know their rates are far far cheaper than whatur looking at..:Amflag2:

[scosgt]

One of the problems with sending guns back is the absurd laws we have here in NY. Since the gun is registered on a permit, there are two issues:
1. If the gun is lost of stolen, you can basically kiss your permit good bye, because how are you going to PROVE you even put it into the box. It basically limits you to using a dealer to send it back.
2. If they have to replace the frame, that becomes another world of hurt. I have a Smith & Wesson Mod 36 that is registered as a Mod 37. It was sent in for repair and they sprung the frame, so they called me and asked if I wanted a steel or alloy replacement. I said STEEL and they sent the gun back with a new frame and the same serial number. But the crane still says Mod 37, and it has caused endless confusion since the M37 is an alloy frame gun.
I sent back a PPKs one time and the gun was replaced with a different serial number. They sent all the proper paper work so in theory there should not be a problem. However, my job would send me a memo at least once a year demanding to know where the old gun was, and why didn't I send in the proper forms if I got rid of it. On a permit it is even worse, you have to go down with the gun and the paperwork and if they are in a good mood they will take the old number off and put the new number on. If not, they give you all kinds of crap!

So sending handguns back for repair is usually the thing we try hard NOT to do.

[gpalma]

Yeah, my quotes were $60 & $61 from FedEx and UPS. Have sent Kahr a message stating that it will NOT be coming overnight. If they do not like that....then it goes down the road.

[gpalma]

My final conversations with Kahr Arms...


Jay, I have made the decision not to ship my CM40. The costs to ship a 2# package overnight are crazy expensive...$60. So, if the company can just ship me the repair part, I will install it and sell the gun.


Thanks



I will have a replacement follower sent ASAP. I hope this information
helps.
sincerely,
Jay
Kahr Customer Service


And there you have it. They want me to spend $60 to fix THEIR DEFECTIVE PRODUCT??

When pigs fly....

C'yall down the road. Gpalma...out.

[jocko]

evidently u did not ask Jay is they would pick it up on their dime and billu for that part, as it wold be way way cheaper for them then ur $60. they are not obligated to pay to ship it back but also it is very unusual for kahr tonot work with a owner, especially with the broken follower issue that seems tobe in the 40 cal kahrs more than any other model. also it was suggested to see ur selling dealer if u bought it in the area and let him send it b ack, again alot cheaper...

Not accusing anyone but sumpin smells here..

[gpalma]

Something smells? Indeed....

It smells like poor customer service to me.

Yes, I worked in the shooting/hunting industry for many years as a factory sales rep. Yes, I was "Salesman of the Year" for many of the largest firearm, archery and hunting product manufacturers in the industry. Yes, I won those awards through excellence in customer service and know full well what it takes to go the extra mile.

Kahr now has my review and my G36 has been purchased. Enough of their nonsense: http://grantubl.com/?p=71