Cast bullet leading woes!

[BorisJBoris]

My new CM9 is leading badly with bullets cast in a Lee tc 120 mold. Here's some background. My bore slugs to .3540 inches and I've measured it several times. Bullets are sized to .3560 (and yes, they are measured to the nearest ten thousandth). The first batch of bullets was cast using recovered indoor range scrap which averages a BHN of 10.4. I realize that's a little soft but it works fine in 7 other calibers. Leading was terrible. I was sure it was a hardness issue so I ran off some water dropped wheel weight bullets…BHN 22.7. The results were the same. Then I wondered if I might be squeezing the bullets when I seated them in my sized cases and in fact I was, but only to .355 or so. That's still bigger than my bore. Lube is a Lyman molly lube that's been around longer than dirt and the loads used light and moderate charges of Unique. I'm going to try another lube and Bullseye powder but after that, I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[fuji1]

Glad you started this thread. I just picked up a Kahr CW 40 and been seeing a lot of leading also. I use Penn 165gr TC with 4.7 grs of tightgroup ( which is a little hot) and 4 gr of 231 both leaded a lot. I had to adjust my COL down a bit and it fed fine. But I will say after about 60 rounds I started to get FTBs. I think the tolerances are so tight the lube gums up just enough. Just ordered some fpj just to see if it makes much of a difference.

I'm wondering if the barrels are a little rough inside and causing some lead to hang up. I really never thought a lube could aid in leading.

Joe

[jocko]

eventually this cast bullet stuff is gonna go by the wayside. If my kahr or any gun was leading up, then I would go to jacketed rounds and just be done with it. I realize it is some more expenswive of cast over jacketed but not sure one can blame the gun for lead build up either.With led, it is what it is.... Clean more often is probalby needed with cast bullets. Most indoor ranges forbid cast ammo and even some outdoor ranges now are doing the same..

[DeeDubya]

Fire lapping pistol barrels is not too common, but I did an HK USP 40sw some years ago with good results. Back then I had to make my own bullets coated with valve grinding compound. I did not shoot these bullets but drove them through the barrel with a dowel rod.. A lot of work but success.

Here is a company that has a ready-to-go fire lapping kit.

http://www.davidtubb.com/ff-kit-38-9mm-cal

[Longitude Zero]

eventually this cast bullet stuff is gonna go by the wayside. If my kahr or any gun was leading up, then I would go to jacketed rounds and just be done with it. I realize it is some more expenswive of cast over jacketed but not sure one can blame the gun for lead build up either.With led, it is what it is.... Clean more often is probalby needed with cast bullets. Most indoor ranges forbid cast ammo and even some outdoor ranges now are doing the same..

Exactely. Once you go jacketed you never go back. The gun is never to blame when ie leads up since the situation is easily avoided.

[DeeDubya]

Exactely. Once you go jacketed you never go back. The gun is never to blame when ie leads up since the situation is easily avoided.

He's casting his own bullets. If he has a good source for lead, he can shoot for cheap. Real cheap. Plus practice loads are generally loaded light and make for a little more pleasant shooting.

Plated bullets are generally about half the cost of jacketed. I shoot a lot of Berry's and Rainier's with very good results (when I'm not shooting lead).

[fuji1]

Exactely. Once you go jacketed you never go back. The gun is never to blame when ie leads up since the situation is easily avoided.


Ok then you copper foul. When you shoot a lot of lead you notice changes in the leading patterns and that's what I feel BorisJ and myself are noticing. If I want to clean lead out it is easy vinegar and peroxide does the trick, just like ammonia for copper. I didn't feel that was the point of the post, I really feel the barrels are a little rough and the powder charge may need to be adjusted till the barrels smooth out.

If you have a source for lead the only other cost is your time and energy. I pay about $ 70.00/1000 from Penn Bullets and that's cheap enough so I don't cast my own bullets. Even with the higher prices for supplies I'm still reloading for about $6.25/box, if you cast your own that cost could be cut in half.

Joe

[mr surveyor]

I've been loading a lot of Bayou Bullets ... not so much for the bullet/mold design as for the totally encapsulated dry lube used. I haven't loaded any 9mm with the Bayou Bullets, but have in .45 acp ... all the rest I load are revolver rounds. From the 5-6 handguns I've run the B/B's through, there's absolutely no comparison with standard lubed cast bullets. I don't cast my own, so I'm pretty much at the mercy of the casters to provide what I need, and that's not always gonna be a boolit sized exactly to my personal spec's. The difference between standard commercial lubes and the Bayou Bullet dry lube is like night and day when it comes to leading (and smoke) issues.

Now, to the point, you guys that are casting your own might be interested in checking out the lube that's used on the Bayou Bullets. Unless he's encountering a shortage, Mr. Donnie does sell the lube (with instructions on how to apply/bake it on). A phone call to him might give you a new twist to your boolit making.


surv

[fuji1]

I've been loading a lot of Bayou Bullets ... not so much for the bullet/mold design as for the totally encapsulated dry lube used. I haven't loaded any 9mm with the Bayou Bullets, but have in .45 acp ... all the rest I load are revolver rounds. From the 5-6 handguns I've run the B/B's through, there's absolutely no comparison with standard lubed cast bullets. I don't cast my own, so I'm pretty much at the mercy of the casters to provide what I need, and that's not always gonna be a boolit sized exactly to my personal spec's. The difference between standard commercial lubes and the Bayou Bullet dry lube is like night and day when it comes to leading (and smoke) issues.

Now, to the point, you guys that are casting your own might be interested in checking out the lube that's used on the Bayou Bullets. Unless he's encountering a shortage, Mr. Donnie does sell the lube (with instructions on how to apply/bake it on). A phone call to him might give you a new twist to your boolit making.


surv

Thank you, this I may try. But of course not taking any orders right now!!! lol

Joe

[downtownv]

I am going to give you life changing info here.
General Motors Top engine cleaner
Brush on wipe off.
Warning you only need a little and the whole bottle is very expensive they can sell it buy the ounce... so bring a small container. Unless your rich, Like Odell, then buy the whole bottle!

[mr surveyor]

Thank you, this I may try. But of course not taking any orders right now!!! lol

Joe



Joe

Call the phone number. Yes, he does have the "not taking orders" message posted, but that apparantly is for large bulk orders on his boolits. I called a couple of weeks ago and ordered 500 of his 240 gr lswc's in .44, and had them the next week. But, that was a "small order" for a "not so popular" bullet. As for the lube supplies, he just may have it available ... I don't know, but he does answer the phone and talk to you. ;)

surv

[BucketBack]

.3540" is tight,my CW9 measures .3555"

[fuji1]

Surv,

Thank you, I'll call Monday

Joe

[CJB]

My new CM9

Therein is your problem.

You have an unlapped bore.

[BorisJBoris]

CJB,

You might be right but I cast and load for 17 other guns, including a new CW45, and exactly none of them have a leading problem and, to the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them has a lapped bore. Is there something different about the CM9?

Ed

[CJB]

If the other guns were shot to any significant amount with jacketed bullets, they were lapped by those bullets. If you took a brand new Kahr rifled barrel and shot cast bullets in it, I'd be surprised to not have it lead.

There was a time when most barrels were lapped as part of manufacturing. Even Bar-Sto used to give a cautionary note about lead bullets and lapping - but they left it up to you to do (or not do...).

You might want to shoot some jacketed bullets thru the Kahr, maybe even do some JB compound or (my favorite) FLITZ through the bore. FLITZ does a really good job, and its almost impossible to screw up.

And another thing - Kahr barrels are nickle plated - inside and out - and that plating is a little lumpy. Kahr knows the reason for the plating, but I suspect its to prevent galling between the barrel and slide. That plating needs smoothing out as well.

Hope that helps!~

[BorisJBoris]

I don't normally buy new handguns so for the most part I can't say whether jacketed bullets have been down the tube or not. However, the Kahr CW45 as well as a Smith M&P 45 were both bought new have been fed nothing but cast bullets and neither lead to any noticeable degree. None the less, your argument makes sense and I'll break out my jar of JB.

Thanks,
Ed

[CJB]

Try some FLITZ ... it works better - been there.

[BorisJBoris]

Here's an update. I've done hours of reading and given the kind of leading I had (in the grooves all the way down the barrel) it was clear that I was getting blow by and that hot gasses were cutting lead and sending it done the barrel. That usually mean the bullet diameter is too small.

Armed with that info I tried every combo of four different cast bullets run through three different bullet dies. No luck. Then, since an alloy with with a BHN of 12 didn't work, I tried one tempered to BHN 20 and then escalated to pure linotype. Same dismal results.

Finally someone suggested that my nice fat bullets were getting sized back down when I seated them the case. On his reccomendation I ordered a Lyman .357 M-die. It came this afternoon and based on a brief test session in the back yard, I'm prepared to declare victory.

Ed

[WV460hunter]

Running an alloy with Tin in it will help to fill out the lead and make then cast a little larger also